It's almost 2 months now since I picked up £530 of 4.2 litre V8 powered Audi, and it's been faultless. Well, at least, it's developed no further faults... However it has had the unfortunate side effect of reminding me, every time I drive the LEC, that, refined as modern diesels might be, and as good as the soundproofing in an e class is, its no match for a large capacity, >4 cylinder petrol powered car.
In parallel I've also been working on number of renewables projects at work which, if they all come off, will result in around 45MW of solar capacity being installed. This of course has made me a born again environmentalist... ;-)
So it was with great interest that I noted that BMW still had some of their ex Olympc fleet for sale, including a number of ActveHybrid 5 series. What better way to save the planet with a hybrid. Particularly one with a twin turbo (I think) straight 6 developing, in conjunction wth some batteries and an electric motor, 340bhp and capable of propelling the car from 0 to 62mph in 5.9 seconds. It's got 400NM of torque, which is the same as the A8 I think. Now these cars are all pretty well loaded option wise and listed at around £53k, which is crazy money for a car. However, at less than 2 years old and wth under 3k miles on the clok they're not far off half that price. Cost to change (un-negotiated) is around £6~£7k.
In theory the combined fuel consumption is 44mpg, though I can't see it achieving anywhere near that. I only do around 10k miles a year though, so the economy (vs the 41ish of the MB) is not that important. I quite like the thought of the Q car image of the car, and the cost to change s reasonable, but am I mad to even consider it?
The other thing that this shows is that my hope of scratching my itch to change the car by dabbling in £500 motors as a bit of fun and a diversion has potentially backfired spectacularly...
By the way, to whoevers in charge of the drop down menus in the motoring discussion forum, the current 5 series is an F10/11 for the saloon / estate,sorry, touring...
Last edited by: PeterS on Tue 17 Dec 13 at 21:07
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So they've sat there all his time and no-ones bought them? What does that tell yer?
Go ahead and report back, please!
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Well there is that of course, but I like to think they just registered more than the market could absorb ;-)
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Intriguing, Peter. Are there any Tourings among the saloons?
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Unfortunately it's not available in Touring guise WDB - saloon only :-(
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"What does that tell yer?"
1. That buyers are fixated with diesel, unless it says 'Prius' on the back, therefore
2. Don't buy one unless you intend to keep it long term
If you're thinking green, remember the greenest car is the one that lasts longest - a car creates more emissions during manufacture than it'll ever create in use, so the greenest option is to start with the cleanest car you can and then run it as long as you can.
And think how much more energy was used to make an aluminium A8 than a steel car. It'd be a crying shame to waste all that energy by scrapping the car :-)
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>> If you're thinking green, remember the greenest car is the one that lasts longest -
>> a car creates more emissions during manufacture than it'll ever create in use, so the
>> greenest option is to start with the cleanest car you can and then run it
>> as long as you can.
>>
>> And think how much more energy was used to make an aluminium A8 than a
>> steel car. It'd be a crying shame to waste all that energy by scrapping the
>> car :-)
>>
Well the A8 has certainly lasted a long time (and coincidentally had a list price in 1996 not far removed from that of a 2013 Hybrid 5 series), and was probably seen as reasonable clean back then. Catalytic converters, aluminium body etc etc. but the cold hard fact is that in day to day running around it barely cracks 20mpg!! Mind you, in 15 years time I'm pretty sure the 41mpg of the Merc will seem profligate in the extreme :-)
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By one assessment I've seen, the Land Rover Defender is the greenest vehicle out there, because almost half of them ever built are still on the road.
To give the A8 its due, it was easier on fuel than most of the competition back in 1996, and there was the option of a V6 or V8 (can't remember which) diesel too.
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>> So it was with great interest that I noted that BMW still had some of
>> their ex Olympc fleet for sale, including a number of ActveHybrid 5 series. What better
>> way to save the planet with a hybrid.
>>
Do you know where these are on sale?
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They're spread around the delear network. If you do a used car search on the BMW website for ActiveHybrid 5 series with less than 5k miles on the clock then they should be fairly obvious. They're all highly specced and have Yx12 prefixes :-)
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Nearest to me is around 88 miles. No doubt my local dealer would have shipped it over for me if I'd have asked nicely......seems one hell of a lot of car for the money, If I'f have known about this last weekend - I would not be an expectant Volvo driver....I'm due Saturday.
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That might be the one I'm looking at RP! In Newport?
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Wow that does look like a bit of a deal Peter. As mentioned above though, pity about the lack of estates. Roof racks and trailers are of course available I guess...
;-)
Huge thread drift alert -
Just had the Merc delivered back to me by the MB dealer driver after a 75k service. Not too scary at £290 and it seems to be only needing attention every 15,000 miles. In fact the servicing costs are cheaper than I was paying for the diesel Qashqai which were also more frequent at 12.5k intervals. ( And it ate tyres which the Merc doesn't ) Maybe the hoo ha about so called premium brand main dealer servicing costs is just that. I've never felt that MB was particularly dear. Not so far anyway.
Anyway, back to topic, are you going to go for the BMW do you think? Looks jolly tempting.
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Last time our jalopy had something fixed, the garage man came out here to fetch me when it was ready in some sort of 3 series diesel coupé, 4 door I think but not certain, possibly a 330d but again not certain. In any case very svelte and slick looking and astonishingly refined in the hands of the garage man, its suspension quiet on our potholed drive and more importantly not remotely harsh, to my great surprise, despite lowish profile tyres.
I like oversteering cars and I thought that one was a very fine motor indeed. I'd love one although I'm slower in reactions and less gung-ho than I used to be... no doubt I would never let it assume untoward attitudes these days, a waste really. But I did like that thing.
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>> Huge thread drift alert -
>>
>> Just had the Merc delivered back to me by the MB dealer driver after a
>> 75k service. Not too scary at £290 and it seems to be only needing attention
>> every 15,000 miles. In fact the servicing costs are cheaper than I was paying for
>> the diesel Qashqai which were also more frequent at 12.5k intervals. ( And it ate
>> tyres which the Merc doesn't ) Maybe the hoo ha about so called premium brand
>> main dealer servicing costs is just that. I've never felt that MB was particularly dear.
>> Not so far anyway.
I have to agree Humph, serving so called 'premium' cars has never seems that expensive to me. MBs also seem to be remarkably gentle on tyres, unlike the FWD A4 which managed under 10k miles on its first pair of front tyres - OEM Continentals. Even the replacement Goodyears couldn't last more than 13k miles. The first pair of rears on the LEC managed nearly 30k miles. Even my 535d got almost 18k miles out of it's back tyres...
>> Anyway, back to topic, are you going to go for the BMW do you think?
>> Looks jolly tempting.
>>
It is very tempting... but though I'm familar with the F10 5 series I've never driven a hybrid, or indeed a petrol one before. So tempting though it is buying one sight unseen and without having driven one is a bt of a gamble. Though they can deliver it on Monday and take away the Merc...
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I managed 30k on tyres on my A4..
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Is the battery pack the result of the venture with Toyota? is should be trouble free. Although real life mpg seems to be in the 20s, which will be expensive if you are a high mileage motorist?
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The problem is the battery.
On long runs you are hauling a big weight around which does nothing for the economy or boot space compared with a standard car.
If you do short runs which are what hybrids should be good at then OK but it is a big heavy car for stop starts and I bet it won't do 400 yards on the battery alone..
18months in to a potential 4/5 year battery life, and for almost all of its life it has been sat in a steady part charges state on a garage forecourt . . . . .
When you want to dispose of it it won't sell because the market does not like used hybids that much, a good diesel is far more economical, practical, reliable and re-sellable. There is a reason why they are not selling and equivalent 520/530s are.
And I have driven a hybrid.
But if you want one . . . . . . . .
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>> 18months in to a potential 4/5 year battery life, and for almost all of its
>> life it has been sat in a steady part charges state on a garage forecourt
Potential 4 year life?
Plenty 8 year old Lexus hybrids out there going strong.
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>> Plenty 8 year old Lexus hybrids out there going strong.
And how many are really running as hybrids . . . .
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 20 Dec 13 at 10:14
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LOTS of 10 year old Prius running on original battery. And easily repaired on a cell by cell basis for well under £250 . The electronic side is easy as far as batteries are concerned. There are UK specialists who do a grand job. (But I believe DIY is possible)
Lexus and Prius have very good reliability records on hybrids - certainly better than any diesel car maker.
I am afraid most of the above comments on battery life appear to be based on hearsay
Last edited by: madf on Fri 20 Dec 13 at 13:11
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Hybrids have been around long enough for me not to be too worried about the life of the batteries / power train. I have what might be described as a slightly cavalier approach to these things, but I've never been disappointed yet. DPFs, DMFs, Turbos, injectors etc etc. all can go wrong, but perhaps I've just been lucky over the last half a million miles... ;-)
Anyway, test drive this afternoon (in a car a friend has borrowed from BMW), so will update you all later...
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BMW have good after sales - they wouldn't want word of failed batteries getting around without some sort of out of warranty support.
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Back from your test drive Peter? Another drift alert. A friend who has been sniffing around for a Christmas present to himself told me yesterday when I was with him that he is taking delivery on Monday of a new C63 AMG estate. Didn't get around to asking what it cost him but he did say the deal was excellent. Run out model I guess. New model C-Class coming in 2014 I think.
I'm not sure whether I'm more excited than he is, he usually lets me have a go of his cars...
I refrained from pointing out how excited his local petrol station proprietor will be too !
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Yes, back now! Well an interesting afternoon... I've been lucky enough to compare an Active5hybrid SE and a 520d SE over the same route, which covered a mix of fastish A roads (Arundel/Petworth/Milford) the down the A3 and back along the A27 and around Chichester on the bypass.
First things first, the cars themselves. To all intents and purposes they look the same - a bit more chrome on the grill of the hybrid, and different badging. Twin exhausts on both, but one each side of the hybrid compared two on the left of the diesel. Both autos, both similarly equipped. The interior was a nice place to be - a huge advance on the E61 variant I once had - and some very nice material contrasts; very pale (oyster) leather, matt chrome and dark wood. It felt smaller inside than the E class, but it's still large car. But while the inside looked and felt good, the car itself felt surprisingly insubstantial compared to my car (which itself feels flimsier than its predecessor IMO), and the paint finish on both was pretty poor.
Both were very refined from the inside, though there was some vibration noticeable in the diesel that wasn't present in the hybrid. A different story on the outside though: the 520d is one clattery sounding engine! More so than the 250CDi in mine, though that might be a result of 5k miles vs the 30k or so I've done?
Despite nether of them being fitted with BMWs adaptive dampers they both rode pretty well on their 17" wheels. Slightly crashier ride than the E class on 18" wheels, which surprised me, but nowhere near bad enough to be an issue. The handling was pretty much what you'd expect from a BMW, and they both felt very composed. The extra weight of the hybrid wasn't in the slightest bit noticeable to me - I assume BMW have managed to keep the weight distribution the same, so there didn't seem to be any noticeable effect on handling. I wasn't driving either car anywhere near their limits though, but the how often do any of us?
Performance wise there's no comparison. The 520d felt pretty brisk. I couldn't really tell it had 20bhp less than my car. It's 8 speed auto was smoother and quicker to change than the 7 speed box in my car, but I missed the column shift that mine has. The steering wheel paddles weren't quite as well placed either. The hybrid absolutely flew. It was quick, quiet and very very smooth. It would also run on the electric motor more often than I expected, especially under light load when cruising. It was quite disconcerting to start with, but I soon got used to how it worked and so I think I was able to get the most out of it. The 8 speed box (same one?) was an even better match than in the diesel. I can't really describe just how well resolved it felt - brilliant!
The A roads and dual carriageway stretches of the A3/A27 definitely favoured the 520d on the economy front, but the Chichester bypass traffic favoured the hybrid. Overall the 520d (auto) averaged 53 mpg per the OBC, and the 340bhp petrol hybrid a frankly amazing 41mpg. I reckon the Merc would probably have been somewhere in between.
So I could compare a bit better to my normal day to day driving I then took the hybrid on my normal commute. The traffic round Chichester was worse than weekday mornings, which definitely favoured the hybrid. Usually you see average consumption falling in congested traffic, and the series of roundabouts on the A27 hammers it further. The 5 series's average actually went up at times! I average 41 per the OBC usually; today my guess is that it'd have been around 37/38. The 5 series did 34 on the way there, driving normally, but on the return journey I accelerated less briskly (still easily keeping up with traffic) to see if I could stay in electric mode longer. That got the average up to 38 on the return. The longest stretch I managed to keep it running on the electric motor only was around a mile and a half and across 2 roundabouts, which I thought was pretty good!
All in all a deeply impressive car, if you ignore it's stratospheric new list price against which, as some posters have pointed out, the diesels make far more sense. But for the price that dealers are asking for AUCs you can ignore that, and I'd definitely far rather have one than a 520d. Do I prefer the 5 series to the Merc though? That's a tougher question. It's a better looking car, but it doesn't ride quite as well. It felt a bit less substantial, though in think you'd soon get use to that, and it has less space which I'm not sure I could...
It's a tough one...I'll sleep on it, but gut feel is that it's not the right car for me. Not because it's a hybrid though, but because its a 5 series saloon. And although MB do a hybrid E class, available as an estate, its diesel powered so just wont have the refinement and power of the BMW.
An E63 estate though; well that'd do me. I'd cope with 23mpg just to hear than nine every morning!
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Good report Peter. Funnily enough my pal had test driven a C-class 350CDi estate back to back with the C63 estate. obviously the 350 diesel was no slouch and returned far better mpg but he says an hour with the C63 persuaded him that there was such a thing as eatable cake in the form of a usable estate with supercar performance.
Like you, he doesn't do a huge annual mileage so he's not deeply bothered by the mpg.
We agonised about changing my E250CDi estate a couple of months back but on balance it ticks so many of my boxes we decided to run it on for the foreseeable future. If it starts to be problematic we'll think again, but so far ( 75k and counting in just over two years ) it has been great. Never feels underpowered but I might say different after/if I get a drive of my friend's new car !
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Yes, it was a good piece. Made me quite fancy that hybrid... I wonder what sort of noise it makes under full-bore acceleration?
Yes, had I but Lud's money, one of those in rat look with black chrome might briefly assuage my verging-on-middle-age not crisis exactly, but sort of stirring somewhere...
There are other candidates including a small snorting monster Mercedes V8.
But everyone will be safer if I just carry on as I am.
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>> Yes, it was a good piece. Made me quite fancy that hybrid... I wonder what
>> sort of noise it makes under full-bore acceleration?
>>
Most of the time the engine was all but inaudible AC, but when pushed it had that 6 cylinder turbine like whine rather than a throaty 8 cylinder roar. I think Humphs friends choice of a C63 would be altogether more satisfying in the noise department!
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A lot of sixes sound good, including any BMW straight six. Alfa V6 and even better, the narrow-angle V6 of the Lancia Aurelia, music actually.
I do fancy that hybrid. I bet it's possible to get it to do 25mpg on the right road by really wringing its neck.
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>> I do fancy that hybrid. I bet it's possible to get it to do 25mpg
>> on the right road by really wringing its neck.
>>
I'm positive that's the case AC. Christmas shopping mimsers meant that the journey to the A3 was pretty restrained. I've done that journey in almost half the time in the past...and I reckon if is done it the other way round and thrashed it up Bury hill that alone would have knocked 5mpg off the average!
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>> thrashed it up Bury hill that alone would have knocked 5mpg off the average!
You local then PeterS? Bury Hill is on Helicopter's manor too.
I used to race up it at high revs in third and fourth gears in my better Skoda Estelles, going round the outside lane of those bends and keeping the revs and speed up.... to be baulked at the bottom was death in a Skoda Estelle, could really make you swear.
I imagine my present jalopy goes up more or less as quickly with less fuss, but cars and drivers are brisker these days so I often find others passing me. All things pass innit? Including trying to go fast up Bury Hill in a galumphing American world jalopy.
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>> >> thrashed it up Bury hill that alone would have knocked 5mpg off the average!
>>
>>
>> You local then PeterS? Bury Hill is on Helicopter's manor too.
>>
I am now AC - been down here for around 10 years now. I'm only a few miles from home once I've reached the top of the hill. It's fun blasting up it in a powerful car, but there is more fun to be had from whipping a low powered car up. As you say though, you really need to be able to get a run-up before it turns into to 2 lanes. If your baulked at that point you're doomed!!
The A8 will waft up it pretty briskly in top - satisfying, but not entertaining :-)
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I wouldn't even be considering changing mine for a new hybrid, but the combination of power, economy and refinement for less than £28k and under 3k miles available for the cash is simply staggering I think. It's just a shame that I'm not sure the format of car is quite right. But, as I think you said earlier in the week, there is always a roof box... And of course I'd no longer 'need' the A8, so I could sell it (possibly easier said than done) and buy an old Merc estate... ;-)
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Now then, 28mpg and JLP vouchers ! What could be the catch? ( apart from the fifty grand that is ! )
tinyurl.com/nwazgls
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Poole is not *that* far from me... But a bit older and more than 10 grand less...
used.mercedes-benz.co.uk/amg/used/2011/mercedes-benz/e63-amg/2011-mercedes-benz-e63-amg-guildford-for-sale-kn11yhy
And the older ones have a normally aspirated 6.2 litre V8 rather than the 5.5 litre turbo'ed unit in new ones :-)
Last edited by: PeterS on Sat 21 Dec 13 at 19:45
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Mind you, MB in Guildford also have this:
used.mercedes-benz.co.uk/used/2010/mercedes-benz/e500/2010-mercedes-benz-e500-guildford-for-sale-hy60uze
Which has almost 400 bhp, is under £30k and is a bit more restrained than an E63...
Last edited by: PeterS on Sat 21 Dec 13 at 19:52
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Difficult isn't it this typing while drooling?
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I think we need pictures.
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However nice the 5-series is (and I prefer the look of it to an E class personally), the deal-breaker for me is BMW's insistence on run-flat tyres. Why can't they at least offer a space-saver wheel for those times when a tyre gets shredded (which is what happened to friends of ours in their 5-series)?
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I'd originally planned on taking some pictures Sooty, but it was so grey, miserable and wet all day I didn't in the end. Shame it wasn't today - lovely and bright all day!
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Seems to be catching this blatant disregard for mpg in favour of blistering performance. Just got back from mountain biking and one of the guys turned up at the forest car park in his new Audi RS6 Avant.
Sounded pretty throaty. I couldn't bring myself to switch my engine on until he'd gone...
White though. Bit girly I thought !
( not even slightly jealous at all if that's the impression given etc... )
Cough...
;-)
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>> Seems to be catching this blatant disregard for mpg in favour of blistering performance.
Anything that irritates the loony lefty greens and "warmists" is fine by me !
Last edited by: Skip on Sun 22 Dec 13 at 16:21
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On an ever so slightly serious note, I do wonder if there is a just the tiniest feeling abroad that the economy is at least stabilising a bit, leading to those who can afford it treating themselves a little more readily ? Or is it just a last hurrah on the basis that it could still all go majorly mammaries up and if I'm going to do it then it'd better be now?
I do so hope it's the former. Maybe we have to at least try to believe that, in part at least, or we'll all be finding bridges to throw ourselves off !
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>> On an ever so slightly serious note, I do wonder if there is a just
>> the tiniest feeling abroad that the economy is at least stabilising a bit, leading to
>> those who can afford it treating themselves a little more readily ? Or is it
>> just a last hurrah on the basis that it could still all go majorly mammaries
>> up and if I'm going to do it then it'd better be now?
>>
>> I do so hope it's the former. Maybe we have to at least try to
>> believe that, in part at least, or we'll all be finding bridges to throw ourselves
>> off !
>>
I think that we have turned the corner now. We just have to hope now that we don't get a Labour government back in in 2015 to screw things up again or god help us is all I can say !
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Well, one swallow doesn't make a summer and all that but, from a personal standpoint, our business does seem to be a bit more positive recently. Here's hoping. Not quite feeling it's time to relax just yet but there do seem to be signs of life.
The thought occurred to me the other day that there seem ( perhaps it's only selective perception of course ) but there do seem at at least to be more trucks moving about recently. Could maybe be indicative of more stuff being bought and sold...
Hope so.
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I think it's a false dawn.... we're still massively indebted as a population and are not saving. The crunch will come the moment interest rates rise and mortgage payments increase. Here in S Wales the economy seems to be on the floor.
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>> there do seem at at least to be more trucks moving about recently. Could maybe be indicative of more stuff being bought and sold...
Full of folk from the Eastern fringes of the Union I'll wager.
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"Full of folk from the Eastern fringes of the Union I'll wager."
Lowestoft?
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Did you know that Bally ( the fairly posh Swiss shoe manufacturers ) used to have a factory in Lowestoft. It was a satellite of the main UK one in Norwich. There was also a mini one in Dereham.
Not everyone would know that I suppose.
So very sorry Peter if you are returning to your thread after a period of abscence and find it waffling on about East Anglian industrial history...
Anyway, you going to buy the BMW?
;-)
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Not entirely sure why I typed "abscence". Hey ho.
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>> Anyway, you going to buy the BMW?
>>
>> ;-)
The answers definitely no...
I think...
Probably...
:-)
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Have a very nice 3 Series here - very discrete gentleman's carriage. Probably the best sub-10k car in the country.
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Funny colour though eh?
;-)
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Green, not Kermit Green true, but nonetheless green.
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Could've sworn you said it was grey.
;-)
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I like that BMW grey-green - looks expensive in an understated way, a bit like the Willow Green that I almost chose for the S60.
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I saw a new-ish E-Class estate recently in a sort of mud brown metallic. Sounds hideous I know but somehow, to my eye anyway, it really worked.
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I parked next to a rather nice E63 estate in Waitrose this morning. Silver, no privacy glass, grey interior. Looked very understated. The only thing was, it was a facelift one and I'm not sure I like the grill...;-)
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You know I agree with you re the new grille. Bloke round the corner from me has a new "E" and I don't like the front of it. I gather they all have those silly column gear changers too now which would, I think anyway, irritate me. I have grown used to not having the handbrake where it should be but moving the gearlever too would be beyond the pale. I think mine must have been one of the last made with the gearlever in the right place !
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>>parked next to a rather nice E63 estate in Waitrose
Ah, y'see I only got as far as Sainsburys. Only diesel ones in there.
;-)
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Mines got a column shift, and I think it's great. I think the 6 cylinder ones always came with the seven speed 'box, but the 4 cylinder cars got it towards the end of 2011. Mine was probably one of the first! Frees up loads of space in the centre console, and if I want to change gear I use the paddles on the wheel. Though I seldom do...
Last edited by: PeterS on Mon 23 Dec 13 at 20:40
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Ach maybe I'm a bit of a luddite but it's not so much the forward gear changing ( there are paddles for that on mine too ) it's engaging reverse and drive without looking ( or more accurately, thinking ) when I prefer the traditional gear selector. A friend had the ML with the column shift and on the odd occasion I drove it I didn't get on with it. Maybe I would in time.
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>>Lowestoft?
Boston, Lincs.
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BMW 5-Series E?? - Saving the planet - bathtub tom
