Where do your sympathies lie?: Motoring Motoring Discussion forum

Motoring Discussion > Where do your sympathies lie?	Miscellaneous
Thread Author: PhilW	Replies: 33

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New Thu 12 Dec 13 18:39

Where do your sympathies lie? - PhilW

Seem to be 2 sides to this story!
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2522477/Mother-LOCKED-petrol-station-RBS-meltdown-meant-pay-fuel.html
Yes, I know it's DM but also in other papers!

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New Thu 12 Dec 13 19:00

Where do your sympathies lie? - Armel Coussine

You'd have to have been there to know whose side you were on, who was the first to get stroppy and awkward.

Either way, a storm in a thimble. How it got into even the daily mail is beyond me... For what it's worth, whoever rang the paper was almost certainly to blame for the silly kerfuffle. I'd put my money on it being the customer.

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New Thu 12 Dec 13 19:34

Where do your sympathies lie? - RattleandSmoke

Locking somebody up in a shop amounts to kidnap it is as simple as that.

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New Thu 12 Dec 13 19:44

Where do your sympathies lie? - Old Navy

Or maybe false imprisonment.

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New Thu 12 Dec 13 19:55

Where do your sympathies lie? - Dog

Six of one and half a dozen of the other IMO.

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New Thu 12 Dec 13 20:03

Where do your sympathies lie? - Stuu

Perhaps the young lady needs to remember that a cash/credit card has no material value on its own - always carry cash for emergencies. Im not sure why she imagines that she can take fuel and promise to pay later, if that was me I would have pulled out all the stops to get it paid by someone.

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New Thu 12 Dec 13 20:31

Where do your sympathies lie? - Skip

Always carry more than one method of payment

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New Thu 12 Dec 13 20:29

Where do your sympathies lie? - No FM2R

If you intended to pay, and believed that you could, then you do not actually have to there and then, since that is simply a civil debt.

You should take reasonable steps to assure them, name and address for example, and then leave. They do not have the right to drain the fuel, prevent you from leaving, lock you in or in fact do anything else.

However, reasonable behaviour would be filing in their form which commits to a later payment and gives all your details, which it reports she refused to do.

It only becomes criminal if you knew that you couldn't or knew that you intended not to, pay.

I would guess that the DM story is a P.O.S. highly customized to make better sensation and that we'll never know who behaved better or worse.

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New Thu 12 Dec 13 21:07

Where do your sympathies lie? - BiggerBadderDave

Is she wearing her bra on the outside?

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New Thu 12 Dec 13 21:37

Where do your sympathies lie? - NeilS

>>>However, reasonable behaviour would be filing in their form which commits to a later payment and gives all your details, which it reports she refused to do.

She looks the type to seek a spot of confrontation rather than toe a reasonable line. But of course first appearances can be deceiving.....

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New Thu 12 Dec 13 21:59

Where do your sympathies lie? - R.P.

Damn you BBD - I'll have to look again now !

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New Thu 12 Dec 13 22:36

Where do your sympathies lie? - PhilW

Not sure she's your type RP

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New Thu 12 Dec 13 23:09

Where do your sympathies lie? - Lygonos

>>If you intended to pay, and believed that you could, then you do not actually have to there and then, since that is simply a civil debt.

>> You should take reasonable steps to assure them, name and address for example, and then leave. They do not have the right to drain the fuel, prevent you from leaving, lock you in or in fact do anything else.

Not convinced this is true in law: you will be attempting to leave with the garage's petrol - you can obviously leave but not with the petrol unless the garage consented to this.

The garage would have every right to call the police if you attempted to leave with the vehicle as they would have enough suspicion that a criminal act was being perpetrated.

Last edited by: Lygonos on Thu 12 Dec 13 at 23:10

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New Thu 12 Dec 13 23:14

Where do your sympathies lie? - No FM2R

>>Not convinced this is true in law:

'spect it is.

>>you will be attempting to leave with the garage's petrol

Exactly the point, no you will not. It became yours when you took possession of it, you just haven't settled your debt yet.

Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 12 Dec 13 at 23:14

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New Thu 12 Dec 13 23:26

Where do your sympathies lie? - Lygonos

>>Exactly the point, no you will not. It became yours when you took possession of it, you just haven't settled your debt yet.

Cool - I'll try that at ASDA and see how far I get out the door with the trolleys.

If you have work done on your car you have no right to drive off with the car until the bill is paid unless the garage allow you to - perhaps a different law?

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New Fri 13 Dec 13 14:18

Where do your sympathies lie? - No FM2R

>>Cool - I'll try that at ASDA and see how far I get out the door with the trolleys.
>>If you have work done on your car you have no right to drive off with the car until the bill is paid

The point is the "taking of possession". The food is in Asda's trolley on Asda's premises. The car is in the possession of the garage.

The fuel is in your possession and there is a gap between when you take possession and when you pay. This gives rise to two distinct parts of the fuelling transaction;

1) Fuelling: Did you legally take possession?

You do intend to pay, you reasonably believe that you can pay.

Because if you did not, that that is a criminal act and the police will take action.

2) Paying: Did you pay?

Because if not that is a civil liability, and thus the Police, the garage staff, and even the garage owner may take no action beyond contacting you and asking you to pay. If you do not pay, then of course it will go further.

It is similar in a restaurant; you take possession and pay later. In fact, in a Restaurant, if you choose to pay less than the whole bill, explain why, and leave your contact details then nobody may do anything except contact you later and ask you to pay.

And assuming that you have justification (duff meal etc.) and have discounted the payment by a proportionate amount, then a court will almost certainly side with you.

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New Fri 13 Dec 13 14:37

Where do your sympathies lie? - Zero

>> >>Cool - I'll try that at ASDA and see how far I get out the
>> door with the trolleys.

Wouldn't bother, you'll end up queueing behind all the other shoplifters in Asda.

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New Thu 12 Dec 13 22:38

Where do your sympathies lie? - swiss tony

Farmyard smell regards this comment...

Mr Patel said that Ms Grogan had been unable to leave the store because the door lock mechanism, controlled from the cash desk, had caught as it was not closed properly.

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New Fri 13 Dec 13 11:08

Where do your sympathies lie? - movilogo

If it near home/work, I'd deposit mobile phone/watch as security to get money from home/colleagues.

I also carry multiple cards so one should always work.

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New Fri 13 Dec 13 11:18

Where do your sympathies lie? - Dog

She owed 25 notes.

iPhone 5 is c£500 notes.

No-way would I leave phone as deposit ... in-certain-areas of this Sceptred Isle.

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New Fri 13 Dec 13 14:08

Where do your sympathies lie? - Fenlander

NoFM is of course correct regarding the law. You cannot be detained by the garage or arrested by police if you have the intent to pay and leave personal details with the promise to return.

There has recently been an update in the law to catch repeat offenders and some comments on this are...

***********************

Senior Policy Advisor at CPS said: “If an individual has made a genuine error in filling up with fuel without having the means to pay, it is standard industry practice to allow drivers to sign a form to acknowledge their debt and agree to pay it back.

“But unfortunately there are a number of dishonest individuals who repeatedly abuse this system, signing forms at different petrol stations and never paying what they owe.”

Police will now be expected to prosecute repeat offenders with the offence of theft or fraud, using CCTV footage, number plate records and fingerprint evidence.

A spokesman for the CPS said: “Drivers who think they can repeatedly abuse the system designed to help honest people who make genuine errors should be warned – they can and will be tracked down and brought to justice.”

***********************

Stop me if I've mentioned this before but in the late 70s I was night cashier at an A1 petrol station when an USAF airman filled up without means to pay in UK funds. He offered to immediately do the 20ml round trip to his base to get some pounds so I asked he left his (nice) watch as a deposit.

He refused but left his English girlfriend as security... yes really!

Last edited by: Fenlander on Fri 13 Dec 13 at 14:11

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New Fri 13 Dec 13 14:21

Where do your sympathies lie? - No FM2R

Actually more a clarification of the law that was already in place and the approach to it. It became policy to consider repeat acts as suggestive of fraud or theft whereas prior to that each instance was treated as stand alone.

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New Fri 13 Dec 13 16:20

Where do your sympathies lie? - Boxsterboy

I made a genuine mistake recently and filled up at the BP garage by the Hammersmith Flyover - a very busy fuel station CCTVed up to the eyeball and with number plate recognition, etc - and then realised I had left my wallet at work. D'oh!

The staff initially gave me the option of phoning a friend who could come and pay (no-one at home), or get a minicab to take me to get my wallet (I had no cash to pay a minicab). In the end the manager trusted me and let me drive off to get my wallet, and return within the hour. Which I did.

I must look the trusting type! But I hope he doesn't treat everyone like me!

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New Fri 13 Dec 13 18:30

Where do your sympathies lie? - Armel Coussine

I can't remember the last time something like that happened to me, but it certainly has once or twice. If they know your face they usually trust you to come back, but I think I've left my watch as a hostage at least once.

Time was when if you looked and sounded all right people would take a gregory or cash one without asking for other ID. Then toerags started to learn how to look and sound all right, and people who looked and sounded all right started to become toerags in increasing numbers.

Progress and social mobility - don'tcha just love 'em?

:o}

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New Sat 14 Dec 13 17:49

Where do your sympathies lie? - Clk Sec

A similar thing happened to me quite a few years ago. I filled my nearly empty tank and went to pay with my credit card, only to find that it had expired the previous day and, for some unknown reason, I hadn’t been sent a replacement.

The filling station staff were not at all interested in me leaving my details and returning with the cash within a couple of hours, informing me that they would report me to the police if I attempted to drive off without paying.

They did, however, give me the option of one of them accompanying me home in my car, but because I had to go elsewhere, this was not possible. So I rang the local police station myself, explained my predicament, and was advised to leave said details as previously suggested and return with the payment whenever I was able.

This I did, later that evening.

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New Sun 15 Dec 13 14:10

Where do your sympathies lie? - Dutchie

A bit of give and take in my opinion.I can understand the staff the way they react when you can't pay the bill.

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New Sun 15 Dec 13 16:22

Where do your sympathies lie? - retgwte

On the other hand

I used to live next door to a petrol station, in an inner city, where one day the staff told me they couldn’t be bothered taking my money and just pay next time I was in when they were less busy. I didn’t know them particularly well but even then (about 25 years ago) I was amazed at this. Of course I did pay up later.

In another place I’ve lived, rural this time, after a service I went to pick up the car and the garage just said they didn’t have time to do an invoice and they would send me one. Again I was amazed. Of course again I paid up as soon as I got the bill.

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New Sun 15 Dec 13 17:25

Where do your sympathies lie? - sooty123

>>
>> In another place I’ve lived, rural this time, after a service I went to pick
>> up the car and the garage just said they didn’t have time to do an
>> invoice and they would send me one. Again I was amazed. Of course again I
>> paid up as soon as I got the bill.

I've had similar as well. I went to pick my car up in a bit of a rush and forgot my wallet. It was a one man band in the countryside. He just said drop the money off later when you get time, very relaxed about the whole thing.

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New Sun 15 Dec 13 17:32

Where do your sympathies lie? - Bromptonaut

My local Cit specialist isn't too worried about me settling account on collection. Fact that I've used them since late nineties may be a factor though.

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New Sun 15 Dec 13 17:56

Where do your sympathies lie? - Armel Coussine

Might it not be the case that shop assistants who worry about getting the money are employees threatened with having to make good any losses they incur by trusting people without money? That seems likely. If you own the outlet yourself and are doing all right you can afford to be more relaxed.

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New Sun 15 Dec 13 18:06

Where do your sympathies lie? - No FM2R

>>employees threatened with having to make good any losses they incur by trusting people

I suspect that that is exactly the case.

Compounded by the fact that since the customers will take their custom away for 1p, why on earth would you pay serious money for competent and caring staff?

Far better to hire a bunch of rude, simplistic, no-hopers and knock 0.1p off the price of a litre.

It is an unusual British customer who will pay for service. They rather prefer to buy cheap and then whine about the lack of service.

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New Sun 15 Dec 13 16:43

Where do your sympathies lie? - Clk Sec

>> I can understand the staff the way
>> they react when you can't pay the bill.
>>

Yes. I wonder how many people leave their details with the forecourt staff, and never return to honour their debt?

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New Sun 15 Dec 13 18:11

Where do your sympathies lie? - Duncan

>> Yes. I wonder how many people leave their details with the forecourt staff, and never
>> return to honour their debt?
>>

Happened to someone in front of me in Sainsbury's a little while ago. They were told to leave their tax disc.

Won't be able to do that for very much longer!

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New Sun 15 Dec 13 18:48

Where do your sympathies lie? - Fullchat

Happened to me a couple of years ago. Topped up the bike and then as I patted down my pockets had a "A carp!" moment when I realised I had left the wallet at home. Humbly approached the cash desk and explained that I was a daft lad. They were happy for me to leave my mobile phone which was fair enough.

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