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No doubt heading for the bargains thread shortly, but today's offers are winter car accessories.
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I read this when I got in from work, and went straight out and bought a set of the chains. They seem to be decent quality, and have a 3 year warranty and come with some spare links as well. I'm not having a repeat of last year, that's for sure. Thanks Mapmaker.
Last edited by: Dave_TiD on Mon 25 Nov 13 at 21:09
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Of course, Dave, you won't be straying far from Coalville this Saturday afternoon will you - what with the Ravens at home to Grimsby in the FA Trophy game ;-)
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I am SERIOUSLY tempted by these -
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb8zFQVl2H8
Brilliant idea if they fit like they do on the video, and being Thule...
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>> Cost ya: tinyurl.com/q8tr3e9 (Amazon)
>>
Didn't see that -:(
Last edited by: Robin O'Reliant on Mon 25 Nov 13 at 22:11
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>> Cost ya: tinyurl.com/q8tr3e9 (Amazon)
>>
Programme on the Beeb last night about working for Amazon. They seriously push their workers.
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>>Programme on the Beeb last night about working for Amazon. They seriously push their workers.
They're not forced to work there.
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Well I guess if its the only job going and you don't qualify for benefits you don't have much in the way of an alternative.
Looked pretty soul destroying to me. They always said working down Ford's was mind numbingly boring but compared with what Amazon want it was positively creative.
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I reckon one or two Bulgarians or Romanians would jump at the chance of working there.
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So does that mean we lower our standards of employment to the lowest common demoninator?
We've spent years getting some half respectable working conditions and Amazon are pushing them to the limit.
What do you see as the employees option Dog?
Pat
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I'm not defending Amazon (although I use them) but apart from the actual pay, what should Amazon do to improve things? I assume this is all to do with how much time workers have to retrieve items and how many in a given space of time they need to collect. And this is not just about the monotony of them walking around a huge warehouse picking up items for dispatch?
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>> So does that mean we lower our standards of employment to the lowest common demoninator?
>>
>> We've spent years getting some half respectable working conditions and Amazon are pushing them to
>> the limit.
>>
>> What do you see as the employees option Dog?
This is a global economy, Amazons options are to not employ ANYONE in the UK and ship it all in from abroad.
The UK economy is struggling back into some semblance of growth, and we still have people wanting to trample all over the green shoots.
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>>We've spent years getting some half respectable working conditions and Amazon are pushing them to the limit.
Pat, what do you see as the alternative? There's a job to be done; there's no automation that will make people redundant (though I doubt you'd see that as a better solution). The job is doable in the target times. The pay is above the minimum wage.
The only thing would be to reduce the amount of work that they are required to do; but why should an employer pay people to sit there playing cards?
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And how does walking around an Amazon warehouse differ from say someone doing your online shop for you at Tesco's? I bet those 'shoppers' at Tesco (and other supermarkets) use for online shopping walk a fair bit during a day too.
I assume the fuss about Amazon is how many items one person is expected to pick in a day that is the issue?
As for the Swansea Amazon base, which isn't far from where I was born.... there'll be a lot of lazy Welsh people on benefits in the valleys that won't want to work there because they do okay out of the benefit system.
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I must be purrfectly honest Pat, and state that I didn't watch all of the program, I meant to though, and started watching it and thought, here we go again so, I took the Milo out on the white grass.
There must be opportunities within Amazon for promotion though, and we've all had to start on the bottom rung as it were.
I've done jobs I hated back in the 70's, I stuck it out until something else came along, then moved on (and up)
We used to live in a slum orf the Walworth Rd. without any bathroom or kitchen and ... we were thankful of that one bedroom flat.
What's that got to do with working at Amazon though :)
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Having now watched the whole panorama program, I think all Amazon warehouses in the UK should be closed down, then we can go back to Curry's, Dixons, and Comet etc.
And while we're about it, I think all the sweatshops in Asia (and Britain) that produce a lot of our clothing should be closed down forthwith.
I jest ... I couldn't see much to whinge about really, it's hardly working in a deep coal mine is it and, as I said - no-one forces anyone to work there.
Sure, conditions could be improved, and I for one would be willing to pay a little more for goods bought from Amazon to help towards that result.
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>>Sure, conditions could be improved, and I for one would be willing to pay a little more for
>>goods bought from Amazon to help towards that result.
Get real, the additional payment would become additional profit... The Directors would not be doing their duty towards their shareholders if they paid their staff more than they had to.
(What 'has to' is of course open to debate.)
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The Directors would not be doing
>> their duty towards their shareholders if they paid their staff more than they had to.
>>
>> (What 'has to' is of course open to debate.)
>>
Are directors themselves included in that sense of 'staff'?
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The argument goes that if they don't pay themselves their huge salaries then they'd disappear off to work elsewhere.
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It has to be said, if you want to work for Amazon full time and want to work your way up to more senior staff type roles (as a graduate for example) you will be thrown into the picking job as experience, to find out what makes the company tick.
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Yes I agree, economic forces will effectively force someone to take those jobs which is rather contrary to your original statement.
Whether living in a world solely driven by economics regardless of quality of life is desirable from an individuals point of view is another issue but that's the way it is for sure.
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The way I am looking at this though - millions of people use Amazon (many of us on here do I am sure). So if they cannot use people to pick items off shelves in a huge warehouse, what should they do? I assume close up the business.
If we didn't buy from Amazon and benefit from lower prices then they would go out of business an cease with these poor working conditions.
A question though: what would you prefer, back breaking work outdoors picking fruit or veg... or walking around a warehouse?
Last edited by: rtj70 on Tue 26 Nov 13 at 09:49
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There's certainly nothing wrong with walking around a warehouse picking orders. It's the time allowed to do each order and the time monitored going to the toilet I have problems with.
We have one at Peterborough and I know people who have worked there. The problem is, it is above the minimum wage but it is nowhere near piecework rates, as we know them, but should be for that type of work.
I notice my remarks have brought comments from many of you who have never had to do this type of work:)
Pat
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>> I notice my remarks have brought comments from many of you who have never had
>> to do this type of work:)
>>
>> Pat
>>
How do you know that for a fact?
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I don't Duncan, but I can make a very educated guess.
I'm sure those who commented will be quick to prove me wrong if that is the case.
....but then again, how would I know that was the case for a fact!
Pat
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We went to the railway museum in Swindon on Sunday.
They had discs hanging on the wall. Each employee had one with a number on it. You hung it on a hook when you came in to work, and removed it if you went to the lavatory. As you went in, you announced your number to the attendant and he wrote it down the time, and similarly as you left.
You were allowed a maximum of ten minutes per day.
You also, of course, had to work with red hot metal, noise, smoke, pollution, no sick pay, fixed and brief unpaid holidays, and the job was 6am to 6pm six days a week. How they managed with no hi-viz I can't begin to think.
This was all as late as the 1940s, not Victorian times.
As bad as Amazon might be (and of course one has the option never to buy from them), it's got to be better than that! That's not to say there's no room for improvement.
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>> I notice my remarks have brought comments from many of you who have never had
>> to do this type of work:)
>>
>> Pat
And again, quite wrong. Why do you always assume you are the only one who has ever had to work for living? Me, my first job out of school was operating a fly press in a transformer factory, piece work, no minimum wage or rate in those days.
So stick that up your turnip.
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As I said Z, no problem with piecework, providing it pays piecework rates....this doesn't.
Turnip and UP?!
>>operating a fly press in a transformer factory, piece work, no minimum wage or rate in those days.
<<
Let me clarify this.
Most of us on here have been there in some form or other years ago.
I don't believe our youngsters (or indeed anyone) should ever have to work like that. We should be improving working conditions, not approving a blast from the past.
Pat
Last edited by: pda on Tue 26 Nov 13 at 10:43
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I have got no issue with folks having to work hard in a job and to get a wage to match it. And I agree with the economy we have that sometimes any job is better than none.
What I don't agree with though is that people get paid low wages and then the company turns in an absolutely ridiculous profit which shows they could reward their staff more.
I also fear that many employers enjoy hearing that "any job is better than none" and "the Bulgarians would do it" as a reason for paying the lowest wages, lowest benefits, zero contracts etc because as a nation we are slowly being programmed down to accept that.
On a side note, when I used to work in Safeway, the pickers in the depots got bonuses for reaching targets each shift and they were very proud of doing this and getting more money at the end of the week. I never saw the program last night but do Amazon not do that? Is the job your "bonus"?
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 3 Dec 13 at 12:48
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>>As I said Z, no problem with piecework, providing it pays piecework rates....this doesn't.
This already pays more than the minimum wage for doing a job that is extremely menial. There's no skill involved in it. It's not a job that you're going to get better at doing as your skill improves. An averagely bright twelve-year-old child could do it.
How much more do you think they should be paid?
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>> I notice my remarks have brought comments from many of you who have never had
>> to do this type of work:)
I haven't had to do that sort of work. What's stopping those doing it getting a degree and getting a well paid job. I worked hard to get where I am thanks. No I don't intend getting minimum wage jobs thank you. Although sometimes a job without stress or responsibility might be nice :-)
>> What I don't agree with though is that people get paid low wages and then the company turns
>> in an absolutely ridiculous profit which shows they could reward their staff more.
Amazon tends to not show a huge profit - they spend what would be profit on expansion. And remember their Kindle readers and tablets are sold at cost price or less. In Q3 2012 they made about $130m on $13bn sales... not a good percentage. For 2012 sales were about $60bn but there was a net loss of $40m..... they are playing the long game.
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>>What's stopping those doing it getting a degree and getting a well paid job. I worked hard to get where I am thanks. No I don't intend getting minimum wage jobs thank you. Although sometimes a job without stress or responsibility might be nice :-)
<<
Not everyone has the ability to get a degree rtj, they simply are not academic enough.
Not everyone has the funds to allow them to do that even if they are...but that is a good thing.
There is just as much need for the poorly educated in this world as there is for the likes of yourself.
There are menial jobs which need filling and I wouldn't expect you to do them, however I would like to think those people with degrees would want to see a fair wage and working conditions for everyone, regardless of the job they do.
I'm a firm believer that menial jobs are equally as important to us all.
Pat
Last edited by: pda on Tue 26 Nov 13 at 17:14
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>> Not everyone has the ability to get a degree rtj, they simply are not academic enough.
>> Not everyone has the funds to allow them to do that even if they are...but that is a good thing.
My point is, there are higher paid jobs for which you might need qualifications or skills to get. And not everyone can do them. So why expect much higher pay for work requiring no skills? Because if the minimum wage for such jobs were a lot higher, we'd have higher wages all round and rampant inflation.
I agree those with decent degrees deserve jobs - and there's not enough. But there are some people who wasted time and money on pointless degrees from institutions that shouldn't be giving out degrees. If you were an employer looking for a graduate for a general graduate programme which would you take:
- Student with a degree from a good University in say English, or Maths, or.... with a 2:2
- Student from what was a technical college with a degree in xxxxx with a 2:1 or 2:2
There are now degrees available for those who couldn't get to do a degree before. But the degrees can be pretty worthless. Decent apprenticeships would be better. And the other problem with degrees is the debt associated with them.
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>>
>> Looked pretty soul destroying to me. They always said working down Ford's was mind
>> numbingly boring but compared with what Amazon want it was positively creative.
>>
Probably the majority of jobs could be classed as pretty soul destroying depending where you're coming from. Not everyone has the luxury of a career, most jobs are done just to provide a living.
Last edited by: Robin O'Reliant on Tue 26 Nov 13 at 17:20
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>> Probably the majority of jobs could be classed as pretty soul destroying depending where you're
>> coming from. Not everyone has the luxury of a career, most jobs are done just
>> to provide a living.
I have a perfectly nice career, but elements of my job are definitely soul destroying. That's probably the moment you find me here - postponing doing the soul-destroying bits...
It's a moot point as to whether I wouldn't be better off without the internet at all...
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>> >>Programme on the Beeb last night about working for Amazon. They seriously push their workers.
I wonder how far the average postman treks, up and down all those garden paths?
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>>I wonder how far the average postman treks, up and down all those garden paths?
You sound just like my missus (and you're both right of course!)
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>> I wonder how far the average postman treks, up and down all those garden paths?
>>
Not that far obviously, or they wouldn't have time for their afternoon jobs (decorators, gardeners, cab drivers, window cleaners, etc.)
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At the end of the day, probably for every job in the UK , there is someone else who would be willing to do it for less money that the present incumbent. It is of course very difficult to tell your employees that they are getting a pay cut and if they don't want the new rate, then someone else will do it. Years of working rights, conditions, laws etc have helped give that protection.
But for any new jobs created, it is very easy for an employer to say its minimum wage and if they get enough people "who should be happy they have got a job" to take it, then why pay more? Throw in zero contracts and maybe see if you can even get them on a "work for nothing" scheme because the experience will stand them in good stead.
And as more and more jobs go then the university graduates who are currently filling our call centres dealing with your PPI claims will then be preparing your Amazon parcels....
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>> what with the Ravens at home to Grimsby in the FA Trophy game
Right now I live in the cul-de-sac just beyond the football club entrance... the traffic up the narrow residential approach road on matchdays is ridiculous.
This Saturday I'm moving house.... Should I drive the borrowed works truck down there about 10 to 3 and see how stuck I can get? ;)
Last edited by: Dave_TiD on Mon 25 Nov 13 at 21:54
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"the traffic up the narrow residential approach road on matchdays is ridiculous. "
Good idea to get out of Owen Street before the Ravens get into the Premier League and you've got herds of Man Utd fans rushing down the road!
Wait until Sunday, Dave, wait until Sunday to do the move ;-)
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>> Good idea to get out before the Ravens get into the Premier League and you've got herds of Man Utd fans
>> rushing down the road!
Owen St ground capacity is only 1800, they filled it the other year when they played Wembley I think. You can tell I've got no interest in football (despite overlooking the ground)!
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>> I read this when I got in from work, and went straight out and bought
>> a set of the chains.
Having managed almost 50 years of driving without either snow chains or winter tyres I think I will be OK. The only thing that has stopped me has been snow so deep the car was bulldozing it and chains won't help in snow that deep.
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>> Having managed almost 50 years of driving without either snow chains or winter tyres I think I will be OK
I'm halfway there ON. Last winter I was foxed on several local inclines by other idiots slithering about, getting in the way of my steady, measured run. A smidgen more traction would have seen me get up each of those hills at the first attempt - hopefully that's all these will be needed for.
Last edited by: Dave_TiD on Mon 25 Nov 13 at 22:34
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>> I'm halfway there ON. Last winter I was foxed on several local inclines by other
>> idiots slithering about,
Unfortunately no matter what you have on your wheels the idiots (incompetents) will always get in the way.
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If it's snowy I'm going to stay tucked up in my warm bed!
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>> If it's snowy I'm going to stay tucked up in my warm bed!
>>
That is another skill, all part of driving in poor conditions. Knowing when to decide "Too risky" and stay put.
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>>
>> That is another skill, all part of driving in poor conditions. Knowing when to decide
>> "Too risky" and stay put.
>>
Aye, but when you're self employed you have to raise the bar on the risk factor.
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>> Aye, but when you're self employed you have to raise the bar on the risk
>> factor.
>>
Not far north of here the weather can be seriously life threatening, If the snow gates are shut it doesn't matter who you are employed by, you don't go anywhere.
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>> >> Aye, but when you're self employed you have to raise the bar on the
>> risk
>> >> factor.
>> >>
>>
>> Not far north of here the weather can be seriously life threatening, If the snow
>> gates are shut it doesn't matter who you are employed by, you don't go anywhere.
Yup raise the bar on the risk factor too high, and you'll end up not earning longer than you could plan for.
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When it gets cold I keep getting H&S texts from Scottish Water. A bit of long story and not figured out how to stop them. Well not really tried... I'm on their 'employee systems' with my work mobile number still.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Tue 26 Nov 13 at 22:53
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>> When it gets cold I keep getting H&S texts from Scottish Water. A bit of
>> long story and not figured out how to stop them. Well not really tried... I'm
>> on their 'employee systems' with my work mobile number still.
I hung on to my work mobile number when I left last year. I get texts with updates whenever when the systems are down.
The thing with the bad weather risk is that you don't always have good forecasts, and you can leave home with a reasonable forecast and still get caught out. It never does to be complacent, but it's a good idea in winter to avoid too empty a tank, and have some warm clothes, boots and water in the car.
(whispers - winter tyres are just an extension of that philosophy).
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>> It never does to be complacent, but it's a good idea in winter to avoid too empty a tank, and
>> have some warm clothes, boots and water in the car.
Good to share your thoughts. I always have warm clothes in the car and when it gets bad and have to travel there's a spade/shovel, food, water etc. No chance of winter tyres with a company/lease vehicle. How many don't think to do the obvious?
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>> If it's snowy I'm going to stay tucked up in my warm bed!
yeah, but who with......
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Many years ago I cycled (slowly) into work despite listening to radio reports that most of my destinations were closed due to the weather. I declined to take the risk and was roundly derided for being a 'softy'. I managed to cycle home again (slowly) without incident.
A 'hard' colleague broke their arm that day, slipping on the ice!
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A fair few years ago I was working in Swindon and the weather was not good. The next day there was some testing of disaster recovery procedures etc. and we all had to be at another site. Weather was due to get worse. I was not happy!
The project manager (us basically) would not back down. Customer staff did not want to travel either. But the contract meant there were cost implications.... in the end we didn't go.
If something had happened and I caused an accident driving etc. then the company would have been liable I believe. The project manager didn't seem to care.
In the end had a sleep in the next day and drove home on clear roads before the bad weather came back.
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Over a five year period I used to drive between the Glasgow area and Kyle of Lochalsh frequently. From October until April we had "Winter Packs" in the cars we used, and a few spares in the office for rental cars. These consisted of a couple of 24 hour ration packs, sleeping bags, space blankets, torches, and a few other odds and ends. The policy was if you are not happy with your safety while travelling get yourself into a hotel or B&B and stay there until you are. These were the days before mobile phones. I never had to use the packs or managed to get stranded anywhere but had a few close ones.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 27 Nov 13 at 08:31
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Funnily enough trying to get places in the winter for work was a major tipping point in me leaving my career when I was only 40 and setting me on a course to do my own thing since then.
I was in a job that was first response to emergencies with a max travel distance of 45mls over often smaller country roads to the edge of my area. Our response time to the incident was max 1hr and that included being woken at home in the night, dressing and setting off in the car. Effectively there was no backup for bad weather or traffic problems... you *had* to make it.
Then as you arrived at the incident to assess and decide what resources were needed to resolve you could get a second call back to near where you started.
One winter with above average snow, black ice and freezing fog I thought how foolish night after night to be driving at and beyond the limit in terrible conditions to meet these timescales.... so I took an opportunity and did something very different that would never again need me to meet the whims, deadlines and targets of others.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Wed 27 Nov 13 at 09:25
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No way am I risking smashing up my car or injuring myself, probably on average we don't get more than two or three days of bad disruption a year in southern England in an average year. If you atke that as being about 25 working hours lost then I make up many times that in unpaid overtime I could claim for but never do, maybe I'm stupid or dedicated I don't know but it gives me something to throw at the managemnent if they moan I've stayed at home. Which to be fair they never do, they seem to like me.
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>> No way am I risking smashing up my car or injuring myself,
>>
That is the secret, being brave enough to tell anyone to "Go away and multiply, I am not driving in these conditions".
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Which to be fair they never do, they seem to like me.
>>
Are they all nubile and concupiscent females?
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Alas not, they are ageing blokes in their 40s or 50s I would guess. My immediate boss is 30 going on 12.
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>> >> If it's snowy I'm going to stay tucked up in my warm bed!
>>
>> yeah, but who with......
Ha ha, well my bedroom is freezing, in fact the whole damn house is, it's not unusual for there to be ice on the inside of my bedroom window. If my friend stays then she sleeps downstairs since thre is this office next to the kitchen that is always nice and warm becuase the Aga is on 24/7, there is a temporary bed she has in there and there are wash facilities near. I hate this time of year, if I have to get up in the night for a pee then it's horrible walking down the corridor to the bathroom and then getting back into bed with your head on a cold pillow.
If I'm lucky then I may get a cup of tea brought up in the morning, she may sit on the bed for five minutes chatting while I drink it, before turning blue.
We are hoping to buy the house from uncle and then throw some serious money at it, it needs proper insulating and better heating.
Lovely in the hot summer though!
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>>this office next to the kitchen that is always nice and warm...
I let my dog sleep somewhere like that in our house on cold nights (and he doesn't even own, or know how to use a coffee machine or bring me tea.)
;-)
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It's a nice room, she is warm & cosy in it. If I'm lonely or in need of warming up in the early hours then I may wander down.... :-)
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What, you'll wake her up and ask her to light the fire?
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>> What, you'll wake her up and ask her to light the fire?
Yeah, but I would rig up some kind of bell system, to save getting out of bed.
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Ah, you can't beat a good tweeny.
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>>
>> Yeah, but I would rig up some kind of bell system, to save getting out
>> of bed.
>>
My younger daughter's room is directly over the kitchen, with only the floorboards in between, so she is the only one with a warm bedroom.
Years ago she invented a way of communicating without needing to shout, dropping a folded message through a gap between the boards. Without warning once a piece of paper fluttered down "When will supper be ready?"
In silence we posted back "30 minutes".
Every now and again someone revives the tradition - "Turn the music down" or "Have you fed the cats?"
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>> Years ago she invented a way of communicating without needing to shout, dropping a folded message through a gap between the boards. Without warning once a piece of paper fluttered down "When will supper be ready?"
>> In silence we posted back "30 minutes".
>>
>> Every now and again someone revives the tradition - "Turn the music down" or "Have
>> you fed the cats?"
>>
>>
Even I can grasp how she can drop a message between the gaps in the floorboards.
How do you get it back up through the floorboards, when the magic of gravity is working against you?
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Could've done that in my old house. Low ceilings, built for small 17th century Scottish peasants.
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'Menial' jobs have their attraction though, as long as you don’t expect to earn much. When I left school at sixteen I had a gap of almost four months before I started my ‘proper’ job so went to work at one of the large supermarkets. My duties were to stack shelves and work on the cash tills. It was a job you could do without thinking, it was almost mentally liberating. It wasn’t lucrative work but it filled a gap in my summer and the benefits were quite good. I wouldn’t rate it as a great job but then neither was it a bad one either.
I had only been there a few weeks and the manager asked me if I would consider staying on, he thought I was good with customers. I don’t know if they used those ‘secret’ shoppers to assess employees, I know some retail places do. I had a letter from Head Office inviting me to apply for their official school leavers training program, I think the manager must have instigated it.
I did think about the offer but it would have gone against all the decisions and parental arguments (sorry, advice...) up until that point, I had made a decision at 14 what I wanted to do and I wasn’t going to be blown off course now. I think I made the right decision, I really like my work and the money is good with promotion available if I want it.
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When I was your position I did the same as you - summer job as a hinge fettler (*) It was fine at the time, but it could never have been anything other than short term
The money was good for my circumstances at the time, I'd walk the 2 or three miles to work, the work itself was physical and I'd be standing upright for 7 1/2 hours a day. I think that just trying to stand up for that length of time would kill me these days.
(*) 'We employ an experienced professional workforce to manufacture tee hinges - they are so good we have to employ three school leavers for six weeks every summer to hammer the stuffing out of them so they actually flex'
Good old British manufacturing
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I once had an "in-between" job as a parcel packer at Harrod's Christmas toy fair.
Good fun - we often played with the toys a bit afore we parcelled 'em up.
Harrod's vast underground tunnel network and storage rooms the other side of Knightsbridge was a revelation.
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I have only had 4 jobs in 44 years. One of them was low skilled, but physical (transformer factory) a fill in between school and starting my apprenticeship, and one of them was a fill in job between good jobs, in that case fitting the innards into Photome machines. When I told them i was leaving they offered me a job as a field service engineer with company Hillman Avenger estate. I told them to poke it.
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When young and feckless had four labouring jobs, each for a couple of months, one as a building labourer in Somerset and the others as a general labourer in two firms, one making advertising displays, and another as a sprayer's mate (metal advertising things to stand outside shops). And in an MoD postal department in some limestone catacombs in Wiltshire.
Otherwise I have just swanned around having a good time, give or take corporate and West End stuff in a succession of regular and freelance capacities. A bit of foreign hacking, translating and so on. No wonder I'm broke and gaga and feel I have failed in life. And after all that I still make mistakes and get things wrong.
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I see myself as still being on the gap year I began in 1979. I shall get around to making an astute career choice shortly I expect.
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I started at the bottom and through judicious endeavour managed to work my way down.
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I started off with nothing and still have most of it left !
Ted
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>>I started off with nothing and still have most of it left
Good title for a record Steve Teddy ;)
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I can't lose what I never had
You can't take what I ain't got
When I'm happy, you won't make me sad
Depending on you all
Well I'm not
Cause I started out with nothing
and I've still got most of it left
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Lidl: Snow chains £20; heavy-duty jump leads £13 - Dave_
