I was having a chin wag with an 'older driver' at work and he said about cars lasting longer these days.
It did get me thinking, just how long do car makers expect their cars to last ?
I said, As long as the warranty but I doubt that's the real answer. if that were the case then Kia would come out tops.
No car maker wants your car to last too long as you wouldn't buy a new one from them.
so how long ?
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how long is a piece of string. Miles or age?
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sorry good point.
I would say age.
I had heard that The AA think an average car age is 13 years in the UK from their statistics, but I could be wrong.
I believe Audi expect their cars to last 20 years. not sure if that is true though
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Shame Miele don't make cars. My washer has done 13 years without a service.
Main thing with cars now is most of them don't rust anywhere near as badly as they used to. The boss's Civic is 11 years old and scruffy, but no rust at all. Compare with my 11 year old Oxford in 1976 with flapping wings.
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>> Shame Miele don't make cars. My washer has done 13 years without a service.
No-one wants to buy a Miele Mondeo at £40k brand new for the base machine.
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Cars here last a very long time. It doesn't rain much and its usually really, really dry and quite hot so there is virtually no rust on anything, however beat up it is.
You often see really old stuff.
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In 1965-ish or something my dad bought a new Wolseley 6/110. Kept it 5 years by which time it had done a short 70k miles. It was riddled with rust. More or less at the end of its useful life. Cost him £1500 new I seem to remember, which was probably quite a lot at the time.
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Cars are so much better made these days. My first cars were Minis and although tremendous fun, I spent more time underneath them than driving them. Endless list of things always needed doing and rust was a nightmare. My first Mini reached 105000 at 12 years old and to be honest it had just about had it. I had a Metro in 1987 -why on earth I have no idea but I put my finger through the front wing and it was not 3 years old! Shocking car all round. I bought a MK 2 Golf a couple of years later and there was absolutely no comparison.
My son's Corolla is now 10 years old and I cannot believe just how solid and sound it is, everything works and gives the impression there's another 10 years in it if looked after and consumables replaced as and when required.
I do wonder if we are through the Golden Age and car lifespan will reduce again due to the burden of super-expensive and relatively fragile electronic control that's on board the latest generation. Plus all that emission stuff underneath latest diesels.
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Peugeot 106 still going strong after 16 years - when crashed and written off
Yaris still going strong after 11 years
Lotus Elan - rebuild - sold when 40
Next door neighbour has a 1984 Mercedes 300 SE still used weekly.
If the original design and build is Ok, a a car will last as long as owners want.
As most owners have no idea and don't maintain them - see Technical Forum - 12 years or if it's a Renault until the bills get too much.
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>>
>> As most owners have no idea and don't maintain them - see Technical Forum -
>> 12 years or if it's a Renault until the bills get too much.
>>
>>
>>
You're not kidding. I'm searching for a car at the moment and must have made a dozen phone calls in the last week following up adverts.
"Do you know when the timing belt was last changed"?
"Er, no", said in a tone that suggested they had no idea what a timing belt was. As for asking if that model had a chain or belt, in most cases you might as well have asked for the name of the bloke who hung the doors at the factory.
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Try asking about the oil. They probably know what it is, but that may be the extent of their knowledge!
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I'm really not kidding when I report this one. A guy I know had a Freelander diesel which he bought new 5-ish years ago. He's the most disinterested in cars person I know but for whatever reasons that's what he bought. He didn't use it much living and working in central Edinburgh but his wife did and it managed to accumulate 60 odd thousand miles up until a couple of months ago.
Anyway, he told me last week that it had been problematic recently "something wrong with the engine" was the extent of his knowledge.
It gets worse, the indie garage he took it to "smashing chap, knows all about cars" had told him it wasn't worth him paying to have it fixed but that they'd dispose of it for him and as a favour they'd let him have a 10 year old 80k miler BMW Z3 as a straight swop "it's a cracking little car, and was used by the guy who owns the garage himself"
He is genuinely pleased !
I didn't have the heart to tell him...
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>> Try asking about the oil. They probably know what it is, but that may be
>> the extent of their knowledge!
>>
There's a post on a motorcycle forum I visit which reads, "Help, my rear light doesn't come on when I turn the headlight on. It always used to work and the brake light still works, What could be wrong"?
Now we all have to start somewhere, but...
Last edited by: Robin O'Reliant on Wed 20 Nov 13 at 19:33
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"Golden Age"
I think so. Agree with every point (was writing my post at the same time!)
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"quite a lot at the time"
It was. According to the site below, nearly £25k, but in real terms (relative to income), I would think rather more. The list price of our family Land-Rover in 1966 (no purchase tax and no heater) was £710!
www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-1633409/Historic-inflation-calculator-value-money-changed-1900.html
Although engines didn't last as well then (our older Anglia had a new one at 50k!) it was the bodywork that limited the useful life, until Audi started using galvanised sheet steel in the early 80's. Manufacturers don't like cars to last too long, but OTOH they don't like seeing their products as rusting heaps when rival products aren't, so they all followed suit fairly quickly.
Porsche are usually credited with introducing galvanised bodywork, but if memory serves, Pressed Steel Fisher, which had become part of BMC/British Leyland had already invented the necessary material in the early 70's (the tricky bit was making zinc-coated steel that was weldable). They suggested that BL made use of it, but presumably the idea of a rust-free Mini/Maxi/1100 was too alien a concept for further consideration...
As a student of bangernomics, I favour cars from the late 90's to early 2000's, as the increasing reliance on (and integration of) electronics is making repairs expensive. Our Audi and Mazdas have lasted around 20 years, but I know several instances of younger cars that have died through relatively minor failures that were uneconomic to repair. It might have to be a kit car next time!
Last edited by: J Bonington Jagworth on Wed 20 Nov 13 at 18:33
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£24,587.25 now according to my Inflation Calculator.
Ouch.
Edit: Reply to Runfer above.
Last edited by: Robin O'Reliant on Wed 20 Nov 13 at 18:34
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I'm not surprised the average useful age of cars is given as 13 years. Back in the first half of the twentieth century it was about ten years, but often much less.
Makes and models do vary in stiffness and rust resistance, although nowadays they are far, far better than they were in my young day. But then as now maintenance makes a radical difference. A lot of cars die unnecessarily young because they are neglected and roughly driven. It was always like that. Rigid, superstitious attitudes have a lot to answer for. An archetypal mimser will destroy a car in half the time, and a quarter of the miles, that it can last in brisk, intelligent hands, with a driver who notices any change in sound, however subtle, and road behaviour, however sporadic and slight.
I passed one of those Mini-variant Wolseley Hornets today Humph.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Wed 20 Nov 13 at 18:56
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Struck me today as I drove to station that my 05 1.9D Berlingo has all but 140k on the clock.
Engine wise all it's ever had is oil changes, one new cambelt and a set of glow plugs. Thirty years ago anything with that mileage would have had decokes, rebores etc and would probably smoke like old glory.
There's a bit of tin worm in the leading edge of the bonnet but otherwise metal is completely sound too.
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>> I'm not surprised the average useful age of cars is given as 13 years.
>>
Average or median, Andrew?
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A close friend of mine bought a brand new Cortina 2.0 Crusader back in 1983. He kept it for about 12 years IIRC, by which time it had clocked up 120,000 reliable miles. I remember being impressed by this, as he was. Nowadays it is far from unusual for cars to have twice that mileage on the clock in half the time.
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Our Jazz is 11 yrs. old ad we fervently hope it will outlast us!
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I do quite understand why older people choose practical cheaper cars in their retirement. Lots of compelling reasons which will no doubt equally persuade me to do the same or similar at that stage in life.
However, I do also rather cling on to the hope that I have the means, enthusiasm and willingness to have a disgracefully inappropriate car when I'm old.
Perhaps just having the intention is enough in itself even if the reality remains unfulfilled.
Caterham or something would be the sort of thing.
I remember years ago getting off a flight to Cyprus and chatting to a delightful old British couple of significantly advanced years. It turned out that we were staying in the same resort and by chance arrived at the same car / bike hire agency the following morning. I rented a 125 off road bike thing and fully expected the old gentleman to be looking for a small car, but in fact he got a huge ( possibly the hugest available ) trailie bike.
Later that day I saw them on it in their leather jackets and bandanas pulling a wheelie as they tore out of town towards the beach.
I had liked them before but they at that moment they gained near hero status in my eyes.
Sort of set the bar for how I want to be at their age.
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>> However, I do also rather cling on to the hope that I have the means,
>> enthusiasm and willingness to have a disgracefully inappropriate car when I'm old.
Think you need a good pension for that.
>> Sort of set the bar for how I want to be at their age.
Probably had a good pension, hows yours coming along?
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>> However, I do also rather cling on to the hope that I have the means,
>> enthusiasm and willingness to have a disgracefully inappropriate car when I'm old.
>>
>> Perhaps just having the intention is enough in itself even if the reality remains unfulfilled.
>>
>> Caterham or something would be the sort of thing.
.
>>
It's not the affordability that is the issue. Will you be able to get into it? And rather more importantly , get out?
It's surprising how many people assume they will have good health in old age.. but do nothing to ensure they enjoy it by exercise when younger..
I seriously recommend yoga or pilates to keep your body supple - before you grow old and it locks itself into painful contortions...Been there, done it....
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Oh indeed madf. Couldn't agree more. So far so good though, in that I've always kept myself in reasonable working order and plan to try to stay as on top of that as I can as the years advance.
As for the little bit of Micawberism re retirement cars, well, it is indeed a fantasy I fear but it has the small merit of at least being a form of ambition.
I strongly suspect that the day one accepts that things can only get worse from here is the beginning of the end.
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>>It's not the affordability that is the issue. Will you be able to get into it? And rather more importantly , get out?
I sat in an MX5 once (with the hood up) and once was enough.
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>>
>> I sat in an MX5 once (with the hood up) and once was enough.
>>
Funnily enough, I have been toying with the idea of buying a small sports car and the MX5 caught my eye, but I keep reading how compact the cockpit is. Would I get in and out comfortably? Probably not, best cross it off the list.
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Dunno how old you are or what physical shape you're in Duncan but an older friend of mine ( I guess he's 75-ish now ) bought a Z4 this summer. He loves it. Says it has re-awakened his love of driving which had been dulled by running magic carpet cars in recent years.
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..MX5 caught my eye
Women's cars anyway IMO, swmbi's work colleague has just bought one, she luvs it ... she's in her 20's.
:}
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>> swmbi's work colleague
>>
What does the letter 'I' stand for?
She Who Must Be, er, Indulged?
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>>What does the letter 'I' stand for?
She Who Must Be, er, Indulged?
Ignored, occasionally.
(*_*)
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Surely manufacturers make cars that last long enough to meet their customers requirements. Most buyers don' t want cars that will last forever - they want something that they can keep for three years or so without too much trouble and then sell on to buy another vehicle. To that end it needs to have a reasonable residual value. A car with a working lifespan of ten years or so fulfils that requirement. To think that car manufacturers have any interest in making a car that will last much longer is wishful thinking. Indeed producing cars with an overly long life span represents a waste of materials and manufacturing costs from their perspective.
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>> I do also rather cling on to the hope that I have the means, enthusiasm and willingness to have a disgracefully inappropriate car when I'm old.
I'm getting to that point now.
I'm not thinking of going down the path of your heroes, but more the SKI package (Spending The Kids inheritance).
A JagV12, but I don't think my old limbs could get down that far. Bristol, maybe (certainly not an MB or JCB Aston Martin). I think a Lexus may be looming.......................
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There's also a cultural thing. Swedes I think keep their cars twice as long as anyone else.
But then they are good at making cars that last, or used to be.
My Volvo 240 is 21 years old and has done 310,000 miles, the last 100,000 by me. My previous one did about 425,000 miles, finally failing its emisions, which I couldn't fix.
I like to buy cars when they are run in and have done about 200,000 miles, and then double it.
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>> There's also a cultural thing. Swedes I think keep their cars twice as long as
>> anyone else.
>> But then they are good at making cars that last, or used to be.
Certainly seem to be, my Saab 9-5 Aero estate automatic recently reached the 200,000 mark at 10 years old. There's a 200,000 mile report at tinyurl.com/m5gz8he (6th post). Since covered another 3,000 miles thanks to a trip to the UK. Lots of cruising at 100mph on the autobahns and still runs sweet as a nut. Just spent a little money on two sets of brand new wheels at bargain basement prices, and going to replace the exhaust soon. No plans to replace it until it dies - it's fully depreciated and worthless on the open market, so the average fuel consumption of 27mpg isn't an issue.
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I would like to think my Panda could last 20 years but I doubt it will be economical to fix. For tax reasons I may not keep it beyond 6 years anyway.
I know the FIRE engine in my Panda can do 300,000 miles or so and there are loads of 100,000 plus Pandas on ebay for sale. It won't rust so that is not going to be an issue. I suspect what will kill my car is if anything goes wrong with the CANBUS system.
I like to think the Panda will out live the I10 anyway despite it being 18 months older.
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"I may not keep it (Panda) beyond 6 years anyway. "
Rats, my 03 Panda passed its NCT (Irish MOT) last week with no serious problems. It needed front drivers side suspension looking, but that's no surprise given the state of our local roads.
Good for another year - we go from 2 year to annual NCTs once a car is 10 years old - and no reason to think it won't pass again next year unless too big a bill or a Doblo/Berlingo too appealing for SWMBO to pass up come along in the meantime!
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Bodywork and mechanicals aren't so much of an issue these days. Its the EU laws on the smaller stuff wot does it in for older cars failing MOT's because a light won't go out on the dashboard or an electric seat (which happens to be in just the right position for the only driver of the car) has stopped working!
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>> Bodywork and mechanicals aren't so much of an issue these days. Its the EU laws
>> on the smaller stuff wot does it in for older cars failing MOT's because a
>> light won't go out on the dashboard or an electric seat (which happens to be
>> in just the right position for the only driver of the car) has stopped working!
>>
As long as you buy Japanese - and not a Mazda diesel - you will be fine.. They understand electric connections and their vulnerabilities. (The French of course don't care)
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Judging by the rust issues reported by some owners I doubt many Dacias will last 10 years.
I today saw a 1957 Wolseley 1.5 - original paint, rusty - driving along , driven in a spirited fashion. Owner has had it for a number of years as I see it every week or so.. Now that is 55 years old.. I doubt BMC - as it was- expected it to last that long....Not really a collector's item... Friend had the Riley 1.5 equivalent as a student . With twin carbs (Wolseley had only one) it had a spirited 68bhp... :-)
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Rust issues on the current crop of Dacias such as the Sandero? If so that is very very poor.
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>> Rust issues on the current crop of Dacias such as the Sandero? If so that
>> is very very poor.
>>
It seems to be the Indian built (UK spec) white painted Dusters that have a problem.
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>> my Saab 9-5 Aero estate automatic recently reached the 200,000 mark
Mine's got 57,000 miles to go then Mike. 2007 silver Dame Edna 1.9 TiD estate now on 143k (from 127k in March). Slightly grumbly gearbox output shaft but that's about it. 43mpg all day long in mixed driving. Really appreciating the Swedish-grade heated seats in this weather too.
I must register on one of the Saab forums :)
Last edited by: Dave_TiD on Sat 23 Nov 13 at 23:52
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I had my Mondeo (mk 2?) from cradle, as a company car, to what must have been nearly its grave - 13 years. When I got rid of it, it was still running OK, but the wheel arches were rusting quite badly. Within about a year, I was noticing that virtually all Mondeos of that type had disappeared as well. It's almost as though they had been preprogrammed to die at 13/14 years.
Somewhere, within the computers at DVLA, there must be the precise information about 1st registration to scrappage for every model of every manufacturer. It would make interesting reading!
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>> I had my Mondeo (mk 2?) from cradle, as a company car, to what must
>> have been nearly its grave - 13 years. When I got rid of it, it
>> was still running OK, but the wheel arches were rusting quite badly. Within about a
>> year, I was noticing that virtually all Mondeos of that type had disappeared as well.
>> It's almost as though they had been preprogrammed to die at 13/14 years.
>>
Your lucky I had the misfortune to be issued Mondeos in 2003 & 2006 by my company and by the time they went back at 3 years old the bottoms were dropping out of the doors on both of them. I hated them, horrible uncomfortable things to drive. The only good thing was the amount of time they spent back at the dealers having the injectors recoded and various parts of the fuel system which seem to made from reject Lego replaced meant that they weren't in my possession much. I went back to buying my own cars after that so that I didn't have to have a 3rd one.
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>> Somewhere, within the computers at DVLA, there must be the precise information about 1st registration
>> to scrappage for every model of every manufacturer. It would make interesting reading!
>>
This may help -
www.howmanyleft.co.uk/
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>> This may help -
>>
>> www.howmanyleft.co.uk/
>>
It seems to depend very much on how the vehicle description was entered at first registration, so for variations of an individual model it's confusing as there seem to be several lines referring to the same car.
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Thanks, ON, I thought it may have some answers, but I can't find a near model type for anything that I've tried.
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Renault in mid 2000s was 3 yrs and 36,000 miles. That's what a Renault UK customer service person told me.
I am not making that up, unfortunately. :-(
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Renault seem to be very hit or miss. I've had good service out of an old 90s Megane which went round the clock with only routine servicing. I've sorted a few minor problems out on a 56 reg Clio for a friend, this car has a very hard life but apart from a couple of broken wires and a boot lock, it's fine. Nice to drive too. The Clio seems to have a slightly better reputation than other Renaults. Problem is, we love to "diss" French cars as a nation, whilst heaping praise on German products, as if in awe. My Megane was a lot more reliable than my last Golf over its lifetime and didn't leak like a sieve either. Difficult to know the reality.
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I have an old, high mileage Golf TDI that has been, and continues to be an absolute peach, and a young, low mileage BMW 320d that hasn't been far short of a disgrace. German cars are a mixed bag, I reckon.
I was a huge fan of Peugeot in the 80s and 90s. The 106, 205, 306, 405 and 406 were all superb cars. Reliable and great to drive. I know someone with a 250,000 mile 406 HDi that still drives superbly and costs buttons to maintain.
Our 2004 Renault (Grand Scenic) was a complete disaster once it hit 3 yrs old, although to drive and generally live with, it was a lovely car. Peachy smooth 1.9 dCi engine as well was an object lesson in four pot diesel refinement. Never driven another 4 pot diesel that was so smooth and quiet.
But appallingly engineered and built.
Last edited by: DP on Fri 22 Nov 13 at 16:17
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If you believed the UK version on the reliability of French cars, the motorways in France would be littered with stationary, (looking like new), cars. The breakdown rate appears remarkably low, To the point that at statistically meaningful sample would take a long time to collect.
However for a nation that invented the SCART connector it is not that surprising that electrical failures feature high on whatever lists you see.
For those that think that the cars are never on the road long enough to breakdown I can only say that dealing with French garages is a much better experience than anywhere in the UK.
I would be interested if MHs view reflects this.
Last edited by: sherlock1947 on Fri 22 Nov 13 at 16:53
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>> If you believed the UK version on the reliability of French cars,
Sadly many people speak from experience (me included). Who knows maybe they expect less in France? Or they just send us all the crap versions?
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The French only make RHD cars on Fridays...
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Surprised to see the Mitsubishi ASX in the bottom 5 for reliability ... not made in France is it by any chance.
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Meganes and Lagunas from this early mid 2000s period do seem to have hit a low point, I've heard similar tales of woe from others. I have a feeling things have improved though, I hope so as there's plenty to like with the brand in many respects.
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I have a feeling things
>> have improved though, I hope so
I member on here might know a thing or two about that ;-)
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Indeed, it's me and they are great. :-)
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You're thinking of Alanovic's Laguna no doubt. As I've just posted on that thread, a basic model Renault, if you could find one, would be a good buy. Renault engines and major components mostly last well: it's the electronic bits which the French can't do, and French people know it and buy more basic versions, often painted beige, which don't sell over here.
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I think you'd struggle to find a Laguna III with keep fit windows and non-electronically controlled ventilation, Avant.
I appreciate the idea, but don't think it's a goer.
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I'm sure you're right: the British buy the cars with the gadgets, so that's what Renault and others sell. But it's the second or third owners who have the problems.
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How long do car makers expect their cars to last - Zero
