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Thread Author: nice but dim	Replies: 36

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New Mon 2 Sep 13 19:45

Just seen this - lorry crash M25 - nice but dim

Not much to say other than to send my condolences to the family of the driver involved.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2407878/Horrifying-moment-German-lorry-driver-Anton-Maizen-killed-man-crashed-M25-traffic.html?ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490

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New Mon 2 Sep 13 20:03

Just seen this - lorry crash M25 - zippy

Ex colleague’s Mrs and child were involved in this. Theirs was the BMW 3 Series which is crumpled beyond belief. Miraculously both survived. Child was restrained in a car seat in the rear. If he was in the front he would have been killed. Both were very battered and bruised. Apparently the emergency services could not believe that they survived there was so little left of the cabin.

Ex colleague said the police were wonderful all round.

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New Thu 5 Sep 13 02:18

Just seen this - lorry crash M25 - idle_chatterer

>> Ex colleague’s Mrs and child were involved in this. Theirs was the BMW 3 Series
>> which is crumpled beyond belief. Miraculously both survived. Child was restrained in a car seat
>> in the rear. If he was in the front he would have been killed. Both
>> were very battered and bruised. Apparently the emergency services could not believe that they survived
>> there was so little left of the cabin.
>>
>> Ex colleague said the police were wonderful all round.
>>
>>

A couple of observations, an ex colleague of mine is driving his 3rd BMW 5 series because his first saved his life in similar circumstances on the M25 about 10 years ago, he walked away from a similarly destroyed car. Perhaps BMWs are well engineered ?

My second point, related to the thread about self driving cars, the technology for crash avoidance / mitigation now finding its way into cars is relatively cheap to implement now that cars (and trucks I hope) have ECUs and cambus etc. I sincerely hope that (like ABS and stability control) it gradually becomes standard fitment. It might not have prevented this but it could perhaps of lessened the consequences ?

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New Thu 5 Sep 13 08:14

Just seen this - lorry crash M25 - Duncan

>> an ex colleague of mine is driving his 3rd BMW 5 series because his first saved his life in similar circumstances on the M25 about 10 years ago, he walked away from a similarly destroyed car. Perhaps BMWs are well engineered>>

Possibly.

Perhaps his life would have been saved in other makes of motor car.

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New Thu 5 Sep 13 08:26

Just seen this - lorry crash M25 - -

>> Perhaps his life would have been saved in other makes of motor car.

Passengers in BMW's do seem to survive massive accidents, a chap i know had a nearly new 325i (square one) some years back, managed to leave the road at a high speed and ended up flying literally into a spinney, i saw the car afterwards and the damage was massive not a panel anywhere near recognisable, but the passenger cell was intact and he walked away.

A fleet manager i knew was an avid fan of 7 series, his favourite quote was he'd yet to see a dead mans 7er.

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New Thu 5 Sep 13 09:21

Just seen this - lorry crash M25 - Duncan

>> i saw the car afterwards> and the damage was massive not a panel anywhere near recognisable, but the passenger cell was intact and he walked away.>>

And that wouldn't have happened if he had been in one of the other makes of motor car which are available?

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New Thu 5 Sep 13 09:47

Just seen this - lorry crash M25 - -

>> And that wouldn't have happened if he had been in one of the other makes
>> of motor car which are available?

I have no idea, and neither do you.

No doubt the BMW i refer to would fail miserably in a set standard crash test conducted today, which may or may not be relevent when an airborne car enters a spinney.

I've seen the results of serious accidents in car compounds during my working life, one thing that has always stuck in my mind was seeing A pillars after that had been clean cut by the Fire service following serious accident.

The good old 240 Volvo's A pillar was relatively thin, but once cut what was revealed was so many folds of metal inside that the post was effectively solid metal.
A French made modern hatch with the modern A pillar (very thick causing blind spots as many do) so cut open was a apart from the seams folded completely hollow.

Thats in itself is no comparison, and during the standardised carsh test no doubt the modern hatch would pass with flying colours and the 240 be an also ran in comparison.

Out in the real world however cars dont usually run into obliquely angled concrete blocks at 40mph on otherwise clear roads, real world accidents especially when things like lorries and trees get involved are completely unique each time.

If i have to choose which car to enter a spinney airborne at high speed i'll choose a BMW MB or big old Volvo brick or similar every time, not some little hatchback.

Course if i'm going to ram a set of railings at 50mph like SWMBO i'll choose the Landcruiser Battering Ram Mk2, no crumple zone and no give anywhere but in the circs worked better..;)

Last edited by: gordonbennet on Thu 5 Sep 13 at 09:48

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New Thu 5 Sep 13 10:17

Just seen this - lorry crash M25 - Number_Cruncher

>>The good old 240 Volvo's A pillar was relatively thin, but once cut what was revealed was so many folds of metal inside that the post was effectively solid metal.

>>A French made modern hatch with the modern A pillar (very thick causing blind spots as many do) so cut open was a apart from the seams folded completely hollow.

In terms of strength, the hollow one will be FAR stronger.

The Volvo design was, in effect, a bodge to satisfy styling, and to obtain a thin pillar.

It's not just a question of how much metal there is in a column, beam, or pillar, but how far that metal is away from the centre of the section - in this case, most of that extra metal in the Volvo was wasted.

I'm no great fan of think pillars, because I think they're crossing the line between being stronger in an accident, and via the reduction in visibility being the cause of accidents in the first place.

I wouldn't be too quick to rubbish crash testing. While the crash tests must be simplified, I don't think anyone's seriously going to argue that the process hasn't made modern cars MUCH safer places to be during a crash.

Last edited by: Number_Cruncher on Thu 5 Sep 13 at 10:17

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New Thu 5 Sep 13 09:41

Just seen this - lorry crash M25 - idle_chatterer

>>
>> Perhaps his life would have been saved in other makes of motor car.
>>

I think the point being made is that BMWs appear to be well engineered in this respect, not that other cars are not although I imagine some makes and models are better than others - particularly 10 years ago.

The result (for BMW in this instance) has been brand loyalty.

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New Thu 5 Sep 13 08:09

Just seen this - lorry crash M25 - Duncan

"Child was restrained in a car seat in the rear. If he was in the front he would have been killed."

You don't know that.

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New Mon 2 Sep 13 20:06

Just seen this - lorry crash M25 - -

There's lots to say NBD, and most of it would get me banned from the site.

The man was a menace and his extremely lenient prison sentence does in no way compensate for the loss of life he caused by being so overtired.

I'm against the nanny state as such but 40 odd ton lorries need to be strictly regulated for all of our sakes, there is much to be said for stopping the peanut pay in many cases and outing the monkeys that result from behind the wheel.

Lorry tests should be harder not as is happening make them ever easier to keep a ready supply of cheap monkeys, and strict standards of real competence not box ticking should apply wherever a driver has passed that test if they wish to drive on our roads..breath not held.

Sorry for minor rant.

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New Mon 2 Sep 13 20:24

Just seen this - lorry crash M25 - Dave_

+1.

I'm a member of a couple of lorry-driver pages on fbook, and the vitriol spouted by a lot of supposed professional drivers on there sometimes makes me wonder who I'm sharing the road with.

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New Mon 2 Sep 13 20:53

Just seen this - lorry crash M25 - Harleyman

Why simply blame the drivers gb? Surely employers are as much if not more to blame for putting them in a position where they feel the need to drive for so long without a rest.

I'm not convinced either that simply making the test harder would stop this sort of thing. We both know that even with the extra hoops today's candidates have to jump through, especially compared with when you and I first qualified, there is no shortage of people willing to do the job.

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New Mon 2 Sep 13 21:10

Just seen this - lorry crash M25 - Dutchie

Longer working weeks or hrs.People working into their seventies till they drop.Shift workers going home by car tired after a night shift.It surprises me there are no more accidents on the roads which are over crowed.

I agree Harleyman employers will push to the limit if they think they can get away with it.And the employee falls for it.Fear is the key.

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New Mon 2 Sep 13 22:21

Just seen this - lorry crash M25 - zippy

>>Surely employers are as much if not more to blame for putting them in a position

As I understand it, there is a provision in the Road Traffic Act that allows for the prosecution of an employer if they set a route or task that requires the employee to break the speed limit.

I have never heard of a company being prosecuted though.

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New Tue 3 Sep 13 03:40

Just seen this - lorry crash M25 - Pat

I agree with most of what GB and HM have already said but my views are more aligned with HM on this one.

I see the driver was 58 years old and as such, had probably started his career in the same era as the two of us.

Most of us remember a life before tachographs and where filling in a log book at the end of the day (to suit the law) was all the regulation we had.

Running bent, as it was known, was the norm even up to just a few years ago.

Employers pitched their rates to cover this and the profit margins were improved by how bent the driver would run.

Indeed, it isn't long since a good driver was measured by how bent he would/could run without getting caught and was something to brag about over a bacon sarnie.

The chances of getting caught were very low and it really didn't start to decline until digital tachographs were introduced and VOSA was formed to police lorry drivers and their employers.

Sadly, there will always be older drivers who will want to beat the youngsters to that brand new lorry, want to keep in good books with the TM or boss, and those who still simply see it as the 'normal' way to do the job.

I see a vast amount of drivers now, always the younger ones, who are shocked at this.
They feel that as it is harder now to get an HGV licence, costs them so much more, and they have started out with VOSA constantly peering over their shoulder it is simply out of the question to do anything illegal.

Quite right too...and proof that the system is working, but until our whole generation of lorry drivers are from the last 15 years or so, we'll still have the very few bad ones around from the old school.

Zippy you are quite correct on both counts.

You will rarely see this enforced as it has to be proved and now, as all those years ago, the old school bosses and TM's never put anything on paper or use the spoken word.

Phrases like: 'We really needed that back here tomorrow' 'Do your best' and 'you know what I'm saying' all accompanied by a wink and a vague promise of new lorries coming are all that is needed for many older drivers, even today.

In almost all cases saying this to a younger driver would result in a reply not suited for this forum!

I have no reason to believe it is any different in Germany.

Pat

Last edited by: pda on Tue 3 Sep 13 at 03:42

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New Tue 3 Sep 13 08:50

Just seen this - lorry crash M25 - -

Some interesting takes on this.

Yes companies running their drivers ragged is a problem but there are few openly illegal based in this country now, lots of johnny foreigners though hence why VOSA target them, VOSA can only work with their budgets and the facilities they have.

Though there are some practices condoned by some high image companies (that would raise some eyebrows if generally known about) that mean their drivers can still be working 70odd hour weeks whilst looking apparently legal from the polished outside, and indeed their records would show them as squeaky clean.

One major problem IMO is as i referred to in my earlier post, poor pay, where drivers are still having to do 2 weeks work to make one weeks pay.

That is an industry problem, and something drivers themselves could help change if they unionised, but as alluded to above there is a hardcore who actually prefer to work all hours God sends, no i don't get that either.

If you offered some of these people 45 hour weeks of proper normal human shifts for the same pay they now work 70+ for, then many wouldn't want it, they'd lose their lorry (most shorter houred jobs require vehicle sharing or drive any vehicle thats free) or Heaven forbid actually have to go home at the end of the working day, blowed if i can get me head round some of them.

The problem is that we have a hardcore of drivers who can't see how much better off they would be if they earned £35k for a 45 hour week and went home after every shift.
For some reason earning that total of £35k, made up of £28k for 60 to 70hours, but getting an extra £7k in subsistence money (night out pay) somehow is more desirable.

No i can't work it out either but there it is.

There are some companies and some types of work where lorry sharing and shift work won't work, at the end of the day running expensive HGVs at a profit won't work if the vehicle only works 10 hours a day for 5 days a week, they need to work almost round the clock to make them pay.
Some drivers also for reasons of where they live (or area/work type pay differentials) work a long way from home, so drive to work on a Sunday and live in the lorry all week, going home again on a Friday night.

There will always be long hours and hard work in the industry, unfortunately due to sales techniques driving schools and driver agencies (and some employers) lie blatantly about the pay and prospects in order to lure new victims in, get them to spend up to £5k to get their class 1 (now C+E thanks EU), on the vague promise of £45k and a V8 Scania festooned in spotlights.
Driving agencies make vague offers of headline hourly rates that fail to materialise, they know they have new drivers (and some not so new) by the cobblers and many, not all, exploit them.

I'd like to point something out here, apart from speeding (my choice) i haven't run bent and i started back in 1976 ('73 on vans) on the lorries when we were still on log books, i've worked for different companies over the years and whilst admittedly fitting as much as is humanly possible into a legal working day i haven't been bullied or cajoled into running bent, but then i didn't choose to work for cowboys.

Not everyone from the old school ran bent then or runs bent now, and not all new drivers are as perfect as might be imagined.

Something else many won't know, when i started (still on log books) we had a 12.5 maximum working day, i stuck to this, 12.5 hours is enough for anyone IMO.

Then we started to be standardised to EU regulations, gained the tachograph and immediately our working day increased to 15 hours, much safer for all that..;) the 15 hours working day still applies 3 days a week, the other 2/3 you can have an easy 13 hour working day.

I've usually ended up with decent tackle wherever i've worked once i'd proved myself, mainly because i've been reliable/courteous look after my equipment and try to make the job pay for both me and the company...thats in all our interests, i want the good employer/company to thrive make a profit and keep my good job going.

On other thing i'd like to point out, some companies are responsible good employers, where i work now we are required to work absolutely legally, the company do not want tired overworked staff out on the road and they pay properly to get the right staff, i really do work 40/44 hour weeks, not all companies are like the one who employed the driver responsible for this accident.

We have mostly old school drivers too, though the younger ones here do have that certain something that makes them worth employing, this company is very selective with staff, and all but a very small handful really appreciate the good jobs we have and do them accordingly.

At the end of the day, the driver is responsible for their conduct and vehicle and no one else, they want to be titled, treated as, and paid as professionals but being a professional means taking responsibility for what you do at all times.

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New Tue 3 Sep 13 08:57

Just seen this - lorry crash M25 - Dave_

I don't say too much about my work on here. GB has just explained why :)

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New Tue 3 Sep 13 10:08

Just seen this - lorry crash M25 - Pat

I knew reading my post would make GB defensive and start looking at the past with rose coloured specs:)

It wasn't aimed at anyone in particular, just the industry as a whole as I see it from a different perspective these days.

Much as we don't like to think we're bringing into the industry younger and in a lot of cases, more professional drivers, we are....in their attitude to the job.

Pat

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New Tue 3 Sep 13 10:12

Just seen this - lorry crash M25 - -

>> I knew reading my post would make GB defensive and start looking at the past
>> with rose coloured specs:)

Really? oh well.

We see things differently, we have different paths experiences and preferences.

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New Tue 3 Sep 13 10:14

Just seen this - lorry crash M25 - Pat

Oh get over yourself GB!

Pat

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New Tue 3 Sep 13 10:22

Just seen this - lorry crash M25 - Pat

>>I don't say too much about my work on here. GB has just explained why :)<<

But it's ok on Facebook?:)

Pat

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New Thu 5 Sep 13 17:12

Just seen this - lorry crash M25 - Dave_

>> But it's ok on Facebook?:)

Yep. I've set restricted viewing rights which mean that only the select few can see when I post photos taken at work. I'd never share any of them on a public forum.

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New Thu 5 Sep 13 18:17

Just seen this - lorry crash M25 - Pat

Nothing is private on Facebook Dave...

Pat

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New Thu 5 Sep 13 05:17

Just seen this - lorry crash M25 - Pat

I've puzzled over this one for a couple of days now and for the sake of clarity and the reputation of 'some high image companies' could you explain please.

>> Though there are some practices condoned by some high image companies (that would raise some
>> eyebrows if generally known about) that mean their drivers can still be working 70odd hour
>> weeks whilst looking apparently legal from the polished outside, and indeed their records would show
>> them as squeaky clean.

Yet you state quite rightly

>> working day increased to 15 hours, much safer for all that..;) the 15 hours working
>> day still applies 3 days a week, the other 2/3 you can have an easy
>> 13 hour working day.
>>

This means it is perfectly legal to do an 84 hour week.

Disapproving of it doesn't make it either illegal or immoral, and on behalf of those companies this should be pointed out.

Pat

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New Thu 5 Sep 13 07:23

Just seen this - lorry crash M25 - -

Pat, on 3rd Sept @ 10.14 you made yourself quite clear, i shan't be drawn into discussion with you again.

I have no problem at all with you, and respect that your knowledge and views are every bit as valid as anyone else's here, but your are making personal derogatory or belittling comments (this isn't the first time) against the poster because you either dislike the poster and/or dislike their opinions, and you are entitled to do both but i for one won't be getting involved again.

Regards.

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New Thu 5 Sep 13 08:36

Just seen this - lorry crash M25 - Pat

>>Oh get over yourself GB!
<<

You mean that one:)

Have you never sat in a transport café with a crowd of drivers then?

For goodness sake, it's ok for you to bring vast parts of the UK haulage industry's legality into question, yet take exception to a remark that you are very familiar with and know exactly how it would have been said in real life.

Derogatory and belittling....I can imagine the comments that would have had from fellow drivers!

Pat

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New Thu 5 Sep 13 16:47

Just seen this - lorry crash M25 - Pat

Yet another one

www.youtube.com/watch?v=3951SVYEb_o

Plod did an excellent job though.

Pat

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New Thu 5 Sep 13 17:12

Just seen this - lorry crash M25 - neiltoo

Not so sure.

He was left to drive on for at least five minutes after beginning to "deviate"

OK there was nothing else on the road just then, but things can change quickly.

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New Thu 5 Sep 13 17:18

Just seen this - lorry crash M25 - Focusless

I think I heard one of them say that they were holding up traffic behind to stop anyone else getting involved?

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New Thu 5 Sep 13 17:25

Just seen this - lorry crash M25 - Focusless

Policeman says he's got vehicles trying to pass at about 3:00, but they don't because he's blocking them.

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New Thu 5 Sep 13 17:29

Just seen this - lorry crash M25 - Dave_

>> He was left to drive on for at least five minutes after beginning to "deviate"
>> OK there was nothing else on the road just then, but things can change quickly.

That stretch of the A14 is one of the darkest, dullest, most featureless lengths of dual carriageway in the country. It's at the end of a 50-minute straight run from the bottom of the M6. Waiting until the A1 roundabout to stop him was a smart move, as it allowed the rumble strips, street lights and signs to alert the drunk driver and lead him to slow down safely - and the stop was conducted on the 3-lane part of the road underneath streetlights so other traffic could safely see and get around the obstruction.

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