In fact there's a very large puddle of oil under the car. Is this normal?
There can't be anything wrong with it as it was serviced yesterday... At a garage I've been using for several years.
I was interested by the total bill:
Mot 50
Service 90
Fix washer jet, change 'under-performing' bulbs 25
Coolant change 25
Oil and filter 50
Sump plug washer 1.37
Fuel filter 16
Air filter 10
Pollen filter 15
£290 plus Vat total £350.
It also needs a new tyre (I knew that), I was interested that he was happy to put it down as an advisory with *dangerous* written next to it on the MOT form.
Interesting also that he's changed bulbs because they were under-performing.
Had a long chat with the proprietor who said his net profit is 10% off total takings (net of VAT) which suggests a profit for him of only £30 on this job though I'd guess its a fraction higher in this case. I'm afraid sending a truck out to recover my car will kill that even before he's paid for another sump full of oil. "I'm sure there's a logical reason for it..." Yes indeed....
He was also very disparaging about Kwikfit's abilities and said they have an account with him for rectifying their own mistakes. Glass houses...
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You already know it's not normal. The question I suppose is it leaking or did the garage spill some oil which has not found it's way onto the ground. Is the puddle getting bigger? Is the oil level dropping in the engine?
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>> In fact there's a very large puddle of oil under the car. Is this normal?
No
>> There can't be anything wrong with it as it was serviced yesterday... At a garage
>> I've been using for several years.
Clearly there is. If you are lucky its a loose sump plug or oil filter.
Is it oil or is it something else?
Everything that contains "wet" has been fiddled with. Oil, Water, Diesel.
>> this job though I'd guess its a fraction higher in this case. I'm afraid sending
>> a truck out to recover my car will kill that even before he's paid for
>> another sump full of oil. "I'm sure there's a logical reason for it..." Yes indeed....
NMPP "Not my problem pal, get your ass over here and fix it"
Unless of course its something else that's happened, an expensive something else.
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>>Clearly there is. If you are lucky its a loose sump plug or oil filter.
or maybe 2 x rubber seals in the oil filter - put new one in and forgetting to take the old one out!
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>> Is it oil or is it something else?
>> Everything that contains "wet" has been fiddled with. Oil, Water, Diesel.
Assuming it's nor aircon condensate it's abnormal.
A finger and sniff test will tell quickly whether its water or hydrocarbon and if water whether washer fluid, a/c condensate or coolant.
Is it still dripping? If so then it shouldn't take too long to eliminate obvious oil sources such as filter aor loose drain plug.
And I don't buy the 10% thing, more lke 30 after staff and fixed costs.
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>>who said his net profit is 10% off total taking
If he's got any sense his net profit will be below the line where his own business related costs and salary are accounted for, so he's making more than you think.
In fact, 10% net profit, if its truly net, is too high. He should be looking to reduce that.
As to the puddle, how large is large? A litre of oil can spread out over a very large smooth area. What does the dipstick say? If the dipstick is still above minimum, then assuming he's only a mile or two away I'd drive it back to him. I might chuck half a litre in if I was that worried.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 20 Aug 13 at 19:13
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I had a similar experience with my CRV on the last service and it was brake fluid that they had spilt and had not cleaned up properly.
I took the car back to the dealer so they could check all the bolts were tight and all was fine.
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How the hell do these so called garages get away with it, are they a chain trading under the name of Bodgit and Scarper?
Pools of oil, brake fluid?, do they open the bonnet then suck a good helping of any old fluid lying around into an old bicycle pump and just fire it in willy nilly.
Redfire's experience sounds like a Honda main dealer, the mind boggles.
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>> How the hell do these so called garages get away with it, are they a
>> chain trading under the name of Bodgit and Scarper?
I'm lucky in having a reliable, if less than cheap, indy close by. Recall with a shudder the franchised North London Pug dealer who in 1984 did a head gasket job on my old 104.
- Distributor cap not secured - misfired and eroded carbon contact to nil in under two miles
- Supply lead not reconnected to alternator so no main beam function.
- Scuttle drain left out of place so scuttle filled with water and flooded front foot wells
- Mucky oily fingerprints all over cabin
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Wouldn't it be worth having a look to see where the oil, if it is oil, is coming from? That is the normal first step.
Tsk. Honestly you cats.
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>> Wouldn't it be worth having a look to see where the oil, if it is
>> oil, is coming from? That is the normal first step.
>>
Exactly. Standard practice after doing an oil change should be to run the engine a bit and watch the oil filter joint and sump plug and confirm they are not leaking.
If it's not obvious, spread a sheet of newspaper and look for the origin of the first drip. Then trace it back.
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Reading this, I can't imagine why anyone should opt out of dealer servicing once a manufacturers warranty expires.
You'd almost think there was some agreement between the dealership and manufacturer to optimise parts sales...
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Reviewing this again:
1. You can't trust the main dealer
2. You can't trust you're local man
Unless you have a competent indie on your doorstep best not touch the car at all until something goes wrong/MOT fail.
Sounds like you're asking for bother to have any work voluntarily done. Sometimes women aren't so daft after all. Ain't broke don't break it seems to be the moto with cars.
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I find the sums gmac was charged for oil and filter and coolant change very low, which is nice for him of course
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the only time I had this experience the Volvo garage had left the filler cap off.
a mess, but still enough oil in the engine for it to take no harm.
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>> I find the sums gmac was charged for oil and filter and coolant change very
>> low, which is nice for him of course
>>
I do not think I mentioned any numbers though do agree, I'd struggle to find anyone who could supply 6.8 litres of 0-30 Castrol Edge, a Volvo filter and make some kind of profit out of £50.
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>>If he's got any sense his net profit will be below the line where his own business related
>>costs and salary are accounted for, so he's making more than you think.
Disagree very strongly. If it goes out as salary then both he and the company pay NI on his salary, which is about 25% for earnings between ~10k and ~40k. If he has any sense his salary is ~8k, the balance is dividends.
It is, by the way, definitely oil - out of the sump - in considerable quantity; thanks for those who commented that it's not normal, that's really helpful of you. He's blimmin' lucky that I noticed... as a new engine (plus a hire car for the weekend) would have cost him a pretty penny.
I could pour some oil in and take it round to him, but I'm waiting for his boy to turn up and clean up the road, and I cannot be bothered to waste the time (or money) it will take to buy some oil and go to him.
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A few years back one of my teams had expensive engine failure on a commercial vehicle. The sump plug had fallen out some 15 miles away from our own company garage after they collected it from servicing and were on the way to a job.
Our transport manager did everything he could to try and prove they must have loosened the plug in an act of sabbotage and it all got a bit nasty. The fool just couldn't admit one of his guys had forgotten to tighten it.
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From my experience with my Hondas there has never been a problem with my Honda dealer. My cars have only ever been serviced by the company who sold me the cars. Honda also do a check on your experience with the dealer when your car has been in for service or repair.
I had a towbar fitted on my new CR-V by my dealer, and I received a questionnaire from Honda asking how it had gone and was I satisfied with the dealer.
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Forgetting to screw down the oil filler cap (or leaving it on the rocker cover....) is not unheard of and is usually fairly obvious when you lift the bonnet as oil drips off the underside.
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Last time I serviced our Golf, I forgot to put the new oil filter (cardboard type) in the housing. I just put the empty spindle back in and screwed it closed. I started the engine for a few moments to circulate the new oil, and fortunately noticed the new filter sitting by the garage when I got out of the car and rectified the situation before it got driven anywhere. Phew.
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Many moons ago I tuned a Lada Niva for a geezer in London Weekend Television and he asked me to change the engine oil & filter while I was at it.
I let the oil drain out thoroughly while I was doing the plugs 'n points etc. but, when I came to refill with engine oil, I soon realised what I'd actually drained was the front diff oil :)
I wonder how many peeps have done something similar on Subarus because a quick shufty underneath sed cars will reveal an oil filter and a drain plug in-fool-view ... for the automatic transmission, whereas the engine oil/filter is hidden by a plastic cover.
:}
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>> I wonder how many peeps have done something similar on Subarus because a quick shufty
>> underneath sed cars will reveal an oil filter and a drain plug in-fool-view
No one should make that mistake on mine now because the Redline transmission oil is bright blue :)
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>>No one should make that mistake on mine now because the Redline transmission oil is bright blue :)
Is yours a manual though effendi? ... and why's it called Redline iffits bright blue :)
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>> Is yours a manual though effendi? ... and why's it called Redline iffits bright blue
>> :)
True, I don't s'pose there would be the same confusion as the autos. In the Subaru forums they call the Redline shockproof oil 'Smurfs Blood'.
I thought ' Why the hell do they call it that?' until I saw the colour of it, all over the top of the engine where my mechanic had spilt it. I thought it was coolant at first.
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>>all over the top of the engine where my mechanic had spilt it. I thought it was coolant at first.
Ah! - another one :)
Were you aware (I wasn't) that some dudes fit Subi boxers to:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:VW_Typ_3_front_20080227.jpg
I bet Lud would like one (if he had AC's money)
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Apparently the Scooby boxer is a prime candidate for retrofitting to VW buses too. I can't recall whether it was here or t'other place that I first learned that...
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Well, if 'they' can fit a Rover V8 engine into a Ford sit-up-and-beg jobby, I feel sure someone somewhere has shoehorned a Subaru Boxer into a VW Beetle?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEnF_N6sQjU
:)
Last edited by: Dog on Wed 21 Aug 13 at 16:23
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Why Subaru? Porsche is the usual swap:)
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>> Forgetting to screw down the oil filler cap (or leaving it on the rocker cover....)
>> is not unheard of and is usually fairly obvious when you lift the bonnet as
>> oil drips off the underside.
>>
I drove all the way from the south of England to Scotland once, having forgotten to put the oil filler cap back on my old Saab 99 after I checked the oil. Luckily it was still sitting on the inner wing, but boy was the underside of the bonnet filthy!
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>> I had a towbar fitted on my new CR-V by my dealer, and I received
>> a questionnaire from Honda asking how it had gone and was I satisfied with the
>> dealer.
>>
That's the most annoying thing about using a main dealer for servicing - the never-ending questionnaires afterwards. The ones that the dealers beg you to mark as 'completely satisfied'.
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>>>>If he's got any sense his net profit will be below the line where his own business related
>>>>costs and salary are accounted for, so he's making more than you think.
>>
>>Disagree very strongly
How much his salary is does not change where it is accounted for. And whilst you may wish to limit the salary, one would not similarly wish to limit business related expenditure.
Equally he should still account for both before measuring his net profit.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 21 Aug 13 at 11:18
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I see what you mean.
What you mean is that you think he doesn't understand the meaning of the word profit...
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No, I think he doesn't understand the meaning of the word net.
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duplicate, sorry
Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 21 Aug 13 at 11:18
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Another idea on the oil leak. I serviced a BMW 316 for a customer. I took it for a road test afterwards and the oil light came on. Investigation later showed a trail of oil down my drive and off in the direction I'd gone. It turned out to be a mis-manufactured oil filter. The face and rubber seal were at a slightly different angle to the thread, it tightened but the seal wasn't flush with the block.
A couple of weeks later I attended breakdown to a 316......oil light on and oil trail. same faulty filter.....same make, Fram, and serviced hours before. He had a long journey ahead so I went and got him a filter locally with some oil and he went on his way.
My suppliers never re-imbursed me for my filter/time/oil/Gunk. Lost them a customer.
Ted
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>> A couple of weeks later I attended breakdown to a 316......oil light on and oil
>> trail. same faulty filter.....same make, Fram, and serviced hours before.
Ijust knew it was one of those as i read your post Ted, had exactly the same with a poorly stamped fuel filter face, couldn't get the blessed thing to seal.
Never bought one of their products since nor any other allegedly cheap filters which turn out anything but, its either manufacturer or Mann+Hummel or Mahle, used to be able to get real Crosland filters from the excellent Diesel specialist in Northampton, went past there the other day and i believe its gorn (if its moved maybe Brompton knows where)...another reason not to buy a Diesel again.
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According to the bloke whose feet are sticking out from under my car, it's the fault of the sump plug washer. That was £1.37 well spent...
I'm astonished that a washer, no matter how misshapen (assuming it still looks like a washer to the naked eye) can fail. If have thought that a new copper washer would have deformed beautifully into position.
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Maybe they reused the old one: no way of knowing as it's crushed ;-)
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Even then, sounds like a lot of oil dropped for a dodgy washer.
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You can re-use an old sump plug washer and it will usually make a good seal. Just occasionally it will leak, and they can leak surprisingly fast. Best to use a new one.
What you really don't want to do is overtighten the plug stripping the internal thread in an alloy sump casting... Helicoil carp, yarooo!
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Let's hope they can fix it easily and haven't messed up the thread for the sump plug itself.
As for: "There can't be anything wrong with it as it was serviced yesterday... At a garage I've been using for several years. ".... bet you don't use them again. I know I wouldn't. Sound like they are incompetent.
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2 turns of PTFE tape is a lot cheaper than a £1.37 sump washer!! And it NEVER leaks.
Famous last words....
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>>use them again
On the other hand... These things can happen. And he'll make damn sure it never happens again to MY car. A cheerful 'don't want to leave oil all over the road again like in 2013 do we" when dropping the keys off will surely ensure they use kid gloves.
He's got it in on Monday to change the gear box oil. I'm not planning on cancelling.
I tell you one thing, I'm glad I didn't try to save sixpence by supplying the bits myself.
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Wed 21 Aug 13 at 16:49
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Copper washers should be annealed before reuse. Work hardening, I think. Or replaced with new.
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Indeed NIL. But a new one is more convenient....
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And they cost very little. No doubt the garage charged for one in the happy-land invoice for a service. Said accountant/manager being sure never to check whether such items/services are actually supplied....
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>> Copper washers should be annealed before reuse. Work hardening, I think. Or replaced with new.
>>
For plain washers, yes. But some cars seem to use 'crushable' copper washers - PSA IIRC.
Ford went thro a period of plastic (nylon?) washers - what do they use on the PSA derived engines nowadays?
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>> According to the bloke whose feet are sticking out from under my car, it's the
>> fault of the sump plug washer.
You didn't have to run him over Mapmaker. People make mistakes occasionally. I'm sure you could both have come to some other arrangement that was less drastic...
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Corax. You sound as though you are a very boring person. I won't invite you to one of my parties... ;)
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>> Corax. You sound as though you are a very boring person. I won't invite you
>> to one of my parties... ;)
That's rich coming from someones who's interested in the contents of a car bill ;)
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>> According to the bloke whose feet are sticking out from under my car, it's the
>> fault of the sump plug washer.
I don't believe that. What are the chances of that happening? Loose plug more likely.
There's something about the motor trade (or was in my 8 year experience of it).
They will never tell the truth when bull or an outright lie will suffice, even when the truth is harmless. When candour entails dropping themselves in it, no chance.
Many of the franchised variety are also remarkably ignorant of their own products, especially the ones selected to speak to the public.
It's as if they work out how to run a business properly, then do the opposite.
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I have never ever had a sump washer leak. And I have only replaced two (at oil filter change time) in 40 odd years... Which makes me think a loose oil plug.
Not easily done if you are careful.
Last edited by: madf on Wed 21 Aug 13 at 18:11
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Another good reason for a wholesale shift to PELA pump oil changes ;-)
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Same as Madf....hundreds of services........never a probby with old washers or plugs.
Ted
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There is NO way a duff washer leaks that amount of oil.
Its either crossthreaded or loose.
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A drip every 3-4 seconds = 1ml per minute = 1.2 litre per day.
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I take your point, but a drip every 3 - 4 seconds is pretty damned fast. I'd expect a washer to be doing a drip every 30 seconds or so, if not longer..
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Indeed - if the plug and sump threads aren't maimed I'd expect very little drippage until the plug was at least halfway out.
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I drove it 0.7 miles and left it overnight. There was half a saucer of oil on the road when I went back to check.
I drove it 4 miles the following morning and left it for three and a half hours. It had dumped a shed load of oil on the road, plus whatever was sitting in the undertray. (Which incidentally was not clipped properly in place...)
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Sounds to me like they've let a trainee loose on your jamjar.
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"Sounds to me like they've let a trainee loose on your jamjar."
Which is fair enough - we all have to learn sometime, whatever our line of work - but the key thing is that a second experienced person should double check the work carefully. Otherwise how will they, you and the trainee know the job was done right (or the trainee learn how to do it right if they've made a mistake)?
My own two cents worth is that mistakes happen in all walks of life. So long as its not a regular occurrence, its how willing and capable the garage are to rectify them that matters.
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>>we all have to learn sometime, whatever our line of work - but the key thing is that a second experienced person should double check the work carefully
I'm with this^ geezer.
When I was a mobile car engine tuner for 14 years/nigh-on 10,000 cars, I used to be neurotic/OCD about checking and checking and checking again and again whether I'd left anything untightened, any spanners etc. laying about on the inner wing area.
I used Snap-on and Facom tools mostly, so y'all can understand why :)
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>>My own two cents worth is that mistakes happen in all walks of life. So long as its not a regular occurrence, its how willing and capable the garage are to rectify them that matters.
I'm with this geezer. I've made my own mistakes. Shouting never helped anybody...
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My own two cents worth is that mistakes happen in all walks of life. So long as its not a regular occurrence, its how willing and capable the garage are to rectify them that matters.
I know mistakes occur but any half competent person will have a check list for basic quality control.
Letting a car leave the premises like that could cost thousands if it suddenly dumped all its oil on the motorway and engine goes bang.
(I had an Allegro 1500 - brand new - which did that. I caught it in time, tightened the sump nut by hand, and drove very slowly to the nearest garage where it needed 2 liters of oil. That was BL at its finest... err worst...
I had an Audi A4 where the top hose flew off at 70mph in rain on the outside lane of the motorway. It had been serviced the day before...by an Audi dealer who paid for the towtruck and new antifreeze etc)
Last edited by: madf on Thu 22 Aug 13 at 17:09
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madf>>I know mistakes occur but any half competent person will have a check list for basic quality control
"It had been serviced the day before...by an Audi dealer"
So where do we go?
Rightly or wrongly I find very modern cars too intimidating to touch. Get the brakes wrong, and the ABS units go. Disconnect the battery and the car may never work again. Airlocks in the rather complicated cooling system? Fuel filters that are notoriously difficult to get right. Under-engine covers that really need ramps to access them (rather than my favoured servicing place which is on a high-kerb - which means the car faces towards the sump drain hole.
Anyway, once the car has been fixed, will the garage be after some cash; and what's reasonable?
He has suggested it might be the washer. As I've paid for a new one, then it's entirely his supplier's problem. (Or indeed the fault of the boy who did it up; but that's not what he's arguing.)
He has suggested it might just "need a new sump plug if the old one is burred". That I can see might be the car's fault, so I'll pay for the plug, but not the oil/uplift etc. as that's his incompetence as he should have checked the seal was good.
He has suggested it might need the sump tapping and a larger plug. Now, I can see that might be the car's fault. But given he obviously gave the job to an apprentice who didn't put the under-engine cover back in place, and didn't check that he had a tight seal on the sump plug, then I think I'll argue that his incompetent apprentice stripped it; not my problem.
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>> I used Snap-on and Facom tools mostly, so y'all can understand why :)
>>
Must have been your rail of Snap On 3/8 deep drive metric sockets I found under the bonnet of a breakdown once, Bonz ?
Still use 'em.
Ted
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>>Still use 'em.
And I've still got em Teddy, most of them anyway.
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Ouch.
Apparently the sump has a hairline crack in it. £298 for a new one. He suggested I pay for the new sump, he'll fit it.
Does this seem fair?
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Does the "hairline" crack begin from the sump plug?
If so, overtightening of the sump plug would be the most likely cause.
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My first thought is that this is probably as good an offer as you'll get.
How could you prove beyond argument that the crack was caused solely by over-tightening the sump plug? If you ended up disputing it, Was it over-tight? Was there already some corrosion or damage such that replacing the plug was just enough to crack it? Could the car have hit a kerb or stone on the way home from the garage?
Now, if its a new enough car that corrosion is unlikely, and the crack begins from the rim of the plug, that might be another matter...
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It's an 05 car.
The under-engine cover was loose. Could that have 'helped'
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>>Could that have 'helped'
No, but it's indicative of a slapdash approach which suggests that they might not have used a torque wrench when fitting the sump plug. If you see them face to face, it might be worth asking what the tightening torque for the sump plug is (obviously make sure you know the answer before you ask the question!)
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>>Does this seem fair?
Of course not. They broke it they should fix it. In this case I wouldn't be looking to pay anything.
However, maybe its the best you'll get. Only you can tell that.
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So it wasn't leaking, and so you'd assume not cracked, when it went in.... and after their work it is cracked.... yet they want you to pay for a sump.
Very odd.
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Sounds like they broke this to me too. How to prove it would be difficult. It wasn't leaking oil before the service was it...
The fact they started by saying a new larger plug was needed made it sound like they had cross threaded it... but now they claim the sump is cracked.
I'd ask them to fix it or you will be forced to publish the garage name thus effecting their future customers, i.e. put them off from using them.
You started the thread by saying you'd been using them for years... perhaps some good will on their part is called for.
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Its a Honda for crying out loud ... they do not break sumps unless you have done some major off roading in it and hit a very large rock...
VERY suspicious that you car goes in for a service , no oil leak, after an oil change comes out with a major oil leak..... under tray loose shows carelessness and lack of attention to detail.
Mapmaker ..the truth is you need to face it ......the garage are pulling your plonker my friend.
I really think someone there has cocked up your car big time .... maybe you do not fancy a confrontation but I would be asking the garage to repair it free of charge and for compensation ......no satisfaction and I would be having a chat with trading standards and off to the small claims court.....
Last edited by: helicopter on Fri 23 Aug 13 at 13:12
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>> maybe you do not fancy a confrontation <<
That's not the Mapmaker I know:)
Come on, man up MM and insist they repair it FOC.
Pat
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What I would do in your situation is - go along to said garage and speak to the proprietor man to man, like.
Explain calmly but firmly the fact that the sump clearly wasn't cracked before it went into his esteemed establishment.
Also throw in the fact you've been using and indeed recommending his services for years.
If doesn't work (and it usually does, for me) then y'all just have to cough up the spondulics.
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>>How could you prove beyond argument that the crack was caused solely by over-tightening the sump plug?
That's not necessary - you just need to show that it is 51+% likely that the garage caused the problem.
And whatever the resolution, I'd not touch the garage with a 10-foot pole: the proprietor's sole interest is making money - classic signs of owners I would strongly avoid are those who slag off the opposition, boast of their own abilities and/or always manage to turn a problem they've caused into an earner.
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>>How could you prove beyond argument that the crack was caused solely by over-tightening the sump plug?
I agree that the onus is absolutely on the garage to demonstrate that they followed best practice, and correctly tightened the sump plug.
As mentioned, your car was not leaking before the service - the sump was not cracked.
However, there is a way to check - by removing and measuring the thickness of the copper washer currently on the sump using a micrometer. Then, check a number of times using new washers and the correct installation torque - if there's a significant difference between the correctly tightened waher thickness and the one on your car, you've got very strong evidence of over-tightening.
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I would have thought the thread would have stripped first. I would think the sump is pretty strong, I would have thought to crack it it would need some serious grolling. Have you seen this crack, or could it be more flannel from this garage?
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>>I would have thought the thread would have stripped first.
BMWs used to have a very nice feature on their alloy sumps. The sump plug bolt was hollow, and would snap before you did any damage to the sump. (don't ask me how I know this!)
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Ah but the sump is now cracked and presumably the thread likewise so any attempt to recreate the same torque figures is going to be difficult.
Standby for a mathematical calculation to prove I'm talking carp :)
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I was thinking of using the new sump to do the test - yes, the existing thread is no good for anything if it's cracked.
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Doubt old washer still exists...
Dear garage, that nice new sump I want to test to destruction so we can find out how thin a box of washers go....
Are washers really made to that tolerance anyway?
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Tue 27 Aug 13 at 07:08
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The idea of the test was to point out that in the extreme, there was a way to demonstrate whether or not the fault was caused by overtightening the sump plug.
If the garage has been reasonable, there's no need to go that far.
What have the garage said now?
>I want to test to destruction
If a new sump can't withstand having the plug installed with a new washer on to the correct torque a few times, it has no place being fitted on your engine.
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Don't know what safety factor the car maker works to, but as far as tightening torque goes, I'd have thought at least 150% ought to not cause cracks and ideally, the thread stripping would be the preferred failure mode. A stripped thread can usually be helicoiled and a new lease of life obtained that way.
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Ideally you'd want the plug threads to strip, Shirley?
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best of all for the plug to snap off. It can't be mistaken or allowed to go out of the workshop - you can easily unwind the stub, and fit a new plug.
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Sump plugs are usually steel, but sumps only are sometimes. A steel plug will damage an alloy sump quite easily. Some sumps have a steel female-thread insert at the drainage point, but they are quite rare I think. And I have come across a couple of sumps with stripped threads over the years. Even seen one with a carved wooden bung tapped in, very traditional that...
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To see a good bit of detail design, have a look at Ebay item
300805599824
the BMW plug I mentioned above. It's hollow, and wasted under the head - it snaps before any damage is done to the alloy sump.
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Let's just be thankful we still have sump plugs, and the manufacturers haven't decided that to save production costs an oil change would require a visit to a main dealer and a top down engine strip to change the oil because they've done away with the filler cap too.
Though that may well come...
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>>Let's just be thankful we still have sump plugs
Never owned a boat?
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He invited me to come and pick up my car this evening. He said he'd spent £332 on parts, seal and oil and suggested we split it 50:50 So £166 from me, no charge for any of his labour; apparently it was a complicated job...
Honda quoted me £300 for a new sump when I rang, so I'm certainly ahead of where I could have been.
Honda also said it would have to come from abroad as they never failed. No, he said, it had come from a warehouse in the UK but it had taken them two weeks to get it out, hence the delay. Quite likely he had claimed the only one in the UK.
We looked at the sump which had a nice crack initiating from the threads in the drain hole. Ta da! I said, Honda said that was clear evidence that you over tightened it. (Thanks NC, it's what Honda parts said too.) "No," he said "We think its probably hit a couple of speed humps. "Surely there would be evidence on the engine under-cover," said I.
He said "The mechanic had said it was a real struggle to undo it." Correct torque is 33 ft lbs. so did they over tighten it last year, or is it likely to have seized since then?
He still has the car, to change the gear oil, what should I suggest? We're not really that far apart at this stage and there's been no argument.
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Fri 6 Sep 13 at 18:43
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I think he's taking the wossname so in return I'd screw him to the wall if I could. Although that would entail not using him again in the future - which I probably wouldn't do anyway.
I don't mind the mistake, its the cover up which would hack me off. Speed humps my backside.
At the end of the day you've still only had a service, there's been no additional benefit.
So, I'd get the car back and then tell him to pfd off. However, if you have to settle the bill before getting the car back it depends how much of a fight you can be bothered with.
And I would always remember my philosophy for Indian restaurants; never insult the waiter, he sees your food before you do and you cannot see what he does with it. I am sure similar may apply in a garage.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 7 Sep 13 at 16:47
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For me, It would go like this.,
"Do I look like some kind of prat? Dont feed me this bull about hitting something, you and I know your brainless half trained monkey over tightened it and pucked it up, either this time or last time. I am going to give you your 160, because I consider it a small price to pay to get my car out of your useless incapable hands, and dont expect to see me, or my friends business ever again
Now get out of the way before I run your sorry ass over."
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 7 Sep 13 at 16:47
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Mistakes happen, I accidently damaged a few cars over 14 years of being 'in the game', but I always coughed up though - why should you be out-of-pocket when it's absolutely no fault of yours?
If you want to continue to use said garage then I'd put that question to the garage owner, but if you decide not to use said garage again, then I'd fight it - tooth and nail.
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Mapmaker mentions a difference between Honda's version of sump availability and that told by the garage.
It has to be considered your garage could have fitted a used sump bought for £50 or less so they are actually covering all their costs inc labour by charging £160.
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>> It has to be considered your garage could have fitted a used sump bought for
>> £50 or less so they are actually covering all their costs inc labour by charging
>> £160.
>>
I'd put a few bob on that one. For example -
tinyurl.com/kas6jv6 - ebay
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 7 Sep 13 at 16:47
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>> He still has the car, to change the gear oil, what should I suggest?
Tell him you won't be meeting halfway on the cost of a gearbox...
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>> In fact there's a very large puddle of oil under the car. Is this normal?
It used to be normal with front engine rear wheel drive cars. I mentioned to my dealer that my still-under-warranty 1967 Hillman Hunter had an oil leak from the oil seal where the prop shaft came out of the gearbox and the dealer's written report said "Standard"!
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Mapmaker , I have just got back from a trip to France ( in my Honda Accord ) and see this is still dragging on and my belief has not changed......see my post above....
The radiating cracks from the sump plug only serves to confirm that the garage is still covering up their faults .....
Do not pay him a penny more , in fact start charging him for your time and inconvenience.....
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When you get there ask to see the invoice for the new sump pan.
Any excuses or blather as to why he cannot produce it might give you a clue as to what is going on.
Even once you have seen it you are still not obliged to accept his "kind" 50/50 offer.
As always
MMM
Last edited by: Mark on Mon 9 Sep 13 at 19:54
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As I'm sure you're all dying to learn how this was resolved...
He didn't admit liability at all. He still reckons you get wear and tear on a sump through speed bumps. He also said he wouldn't dream of fitting a second hand one as they're prone to corrosion around the top where they meet the steel engine body.
Anyway, I offered him £100 as my contribution; he bit my hand off. And said he wouldn't charge for next year's MOT (£55), nor next year's oil change. As he charged me £50 + VAT for the oil this year, I reckon I've made a profit on the deal.
Thanks for all contributions (of backbone as much as knowledge!)
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Thu 19 Sep 13 at 11:05
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I reckon you're daft to consider going back to the place again, to be brutally honest.
Can't stand it when people can't own up to their mistakes.
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Perhaps it would be useful to get another sump off Ebay to have in stock ready for next year's oil change :-(
Ted
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>>>you get wear and tear on a sump through speed bumps.
Most cars* would never ground a sump in their lifetime, it is mostly the front apron that hits if anything as that can catch before the speed bump/cusion has lifted the car as the wheels travel over it.
A sump that had suffered "wear and tear" due to speed bumps woul have a large amount of obvious scoring... was the old sump like that? Perhaps not if you had an undertray but that should have been all but destroyed if hit hard enough to crack the sump.
*I say most cars as at the moment I'm running a car very likely to ground.... an Alfa 156 with the very tall 2.4JTD engine is known for grounding and I have already taken about 5mm off the fins on the bottom of the alloy sump... drain plugs is fine though as I do my own oil changes.
I'm sure the guy was pleased to have the £100... because it confirmed he was telling the truth.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Thu 19 Sep 13 at 11:45
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My 1961 Mini estate grounded its sump often In Scotland on B roads. Like dozens of times. Yes I know the sump was the gearbox casing so rather substantial but the car was then at least 10 years old and the sump plug never ever gave problems in my 4 years of ownership (unlike the driveshafts,clutch, bypass hose, rear subframe, tiebar bushes, driveshafts , flexi couplings etc Did I mention driveshafts?)
Last edited by: madf on Thu 19 Sep 13 at 12:46
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Well I still think you should have stood your ground Mapmaker......
Anyway , as long as you are now happy I suppose it does not matter what anyone else thinks...but I would be wary of using them again.
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Do I never learn?
Sure in the knowledge of my free oil change and free MOT - worth £100 - I went back to the garage this year.
Got the car home from the service (EGR blanking having been done elsewhere; let's forgive the garage the mix up with the bolts they didn't refit, some of which were still floating around the engine compartment, some of which weren't, and he blamed the EGR blankers) and I checked the oil, as you do. It's only half an inch above the top indicator.
So I took it back to him for him to finish the MOT (post EGR blanking) and told him there was too much oil.
And I took it away with its shiny new MOT. And checked the oil when I got home; still too much.
I turned up and was shouted at for bringing an unbooked car into his busy garage, didn't I know there were 22 other cars booked in!
And then his grease monkey pulled out the dipstick and said 'look it's fine'. I said, that's because the engine's only just been turned off, you should wait until it's all drained down. Quite, he said; that's how it's supposed to be.
So off I went, and then checked the handbook.
What rot. Why can't he just say 'yes, we messed up, we'll take a bit of oil out.'
I've just re-read the above thread with the rubbish about the wear and tear on the sump; LOL. Why am I surprised?
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I think it's in the secret book that all garages refer to, never ever apologise.
Years ago I had a new clutch slave cylinder fitted under warranty to a Defender 90. The hydraulic bleeding was not fully done and engaging first or reverse crunched. I rebled it and got the 90 to behave. Wrote a letter to the dealer explaining the issue, the fact I was disappointed and that I'd rebled properly. The return letter didn't say anything remotely representing an apology and expected me to return the car to them so it worked properly. As if I'd spend over a gallon of diesel returning something that no longer had a fault to the people who had demonstrated that they weren't good at bleeding clutches.
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>> As if I'd spend over a gallon of diesel returning something that no longer had a fault to the people who had demonstrated that they weren't good at bleeding clutches.
Probably weren't good at any bleedin' thing.
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Honda Accord Tourer - There's oil under my car, should I worry? - rtj70
