Hi all,
My sister bought a 51-reg Daewoo Leganza from an (apparently!) reputable used car dealer after she wrote off her old car on black ice in February. Cost about £1200 IIRC.
It took about a week to get the car because the dealer said he needed to replace the engine to solve a loud knocking noise.
A couple of weeks ago the car lost power and, strangely enough, developed a very loud rattle which sounded like one or more big ends had failed. Recovered home by RAC. Upon contacting the dealer, he advised my sister that his cars only came with a 3 month warranty and that she was on her own (despite being about 15 days outside of 3 months).
To say my sister is a touch annoyed about this is an understatement. I'm sure I read somewhere - possibly here - that a dealer can't get away with saying something only has a "three month warranty" etc.
Is it worth pursuing this further or is it a bit of a lost cause? Sister doesn't have much money and can't really afford to chuck £1200 in the bin.
My personal temptation is to dump the thing on the road outside the dealer with a big sign in it describing the problem, but it's a bit of a last resort. Small Claims Court etc would be my preferred line of attack.
Cheers,
Dave.
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That's unfortunate :-(
Did she buy it on a credit card, or if debit card are the issuing bank able to do anything? Some debit cards, can't remember which, come with discretionary protection system, not as complete as the credit cards but sometimes still useful - if it exists for cards issued by her bank.
3 months is the legal requirement IIRC but not 100% sure, i think if they're a dealer there's something about 3 month written down in a law somewhere that they must warranty the car for. The exception (i might be wrong) is if it's sold for spares or repair, but that has to be written on the invoice i think.
Any decent local indie's she could visit and tell the whole sorry story to in case they can source and fit an engine for cheap?
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I think its fair to say the defect was there at the time of sale. As such she should be able to get all te miney back through the small claims court. Tell the dealer thats where its heading unless a full refund is on its way.
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With the age of the car and it only costing £1200,i think that if you took it to small claims court you would probably lose.
If the fault had been present from day 1 of buying it then you would have a case but 3 months down the line its not the dealers fault its packed up.
I think an opinion from a decent indie on getting it repaired is more the way to go or sell it as it is for a loss.
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I bet a quick check of the engine number and the v5 will reveal that the engine wasnt changed. That means the car was sold, with the noise not being fixed. I reckon I could win that one in the small claims court.
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A dealer wouldn't go to the expense of changing an engine and then sell it for £1200.
It really depends on if the car had any noises after she had just bought it.In which case she should have taken it back then.If no symptoms could be found until it broke 3 months later then the dealer is hardly liable.
Last edited by: Videodoctor on Sun 30 May 10 at 17:07
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>> A dealer wouldn't go to the expense of changing an engine and then sell it for £1200.
Some dealers have guys who do this sort of thing for them very cheap and quick. My guess is that the engine was changed, for another dodgy one. I doubt if thick oil to quieten the knock would last for three months.
I am always appalled by the helplessness of car buyers. Even the ones who aren't helpless can be sold pups, and the helpless ones are just, well, helpless.
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>> I am always appalled by the helplessness of car buyers. Even the ones who aren't
>> helpless can be sold pups, and the helpless ones are just, well, helpless.
>>
So what would you suggest we helpless do, Armel Coussine, or does the idea of giving useful advice "appall" you too?
As I said, I'm all for taking a Saturday and dumping the car outside the dealer with a big sign and me there to explain to his potential customers what happened. If I can get some threats from him and the police involved, even better.
Unfortunately, my sister isn't particularly keen on this approach.
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>> Unfortunately, my sister isn't particularly keen on this approach.
she is right. You have your advice.
You go back to the dealer, state the issue was there at time of purchase, and that unless a refund is forthcoming then it will end up at the small claims court.
Dont get involved in a row, be calm and polite.
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>> what would you suggest we helpless do,
I didn't mean to sound unsympathetic Alfa, quite the contrary indeed. I can see though it looked a bit as if I was calling yr sister helpless. I guess she was unlucky. Anyone can be, as I said.
As for advice, one doesn't want to spend a fortune on a 1200 quid car. It might be possible to extract a second-hand engine from the dealer cheap, but I doubt it. With a short rebuilt unit the assembly costs would be considerable unless you did it yourself. There may be a Vauxhall engine that will fit, but the wiring and so on would be intimidating I wd think. Doesn't sound good.
I have nourished fantasies of doing things like abandoning the car with accusing notices on it in my time - not that, but that sort of thing. Wisdom prevailed in the end though.
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>> That means the car was sold, with the noise not being
>> fixed. I reckon I could win that one in the small claims court.
Is there any evidence (apart from your sister's word) that there was a problem previously and that the dealer said he would change the engine?
Last edited by: Focus on Sun 30 May 10 at 17:23
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Surely, as it is within 6 months of the transaction taking place, the onus is on the dealer to prove that the fault was not there at the time of purchase?
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>> Surely, as it is within 6 months of the transaction taking place, the onus is
>> on the dealer to prove that the fault was not there at the time of
>> purchase?
>>
For new kit yes, but a £1200 "used" car can be expected to have wear, and that is a huge grey area.
I am currently following a story on a forum where a new car engine failed and the owner is having big problems with the dealer and manufacturer, (not in the UK).
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 30 May 10 at 18:19
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>> >> Surely, as it is within 6 months of the transaction taking place, the onus
>> is
>> >> on the dealer to prove that the fault was not there at the time
>> of
>> >> purchase?
>> >>
>> For new kit yes, but a £1200 "used" car can be expected to have wear,
>> and that is a huge grey area.
>>
The 6 month deadline applies just as much to a used car, although I agree what is reasonable wear and tear for a 1200 quid Leganza is indeed a big grey area: I would hope a self destructing engine ( assuming there were no warning signs before it let go....) would be reasonably clear as unreasonable on any used car.
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These engines can sludge up without regular oil changes leading to starvation at main bearings.
Best to be wise *before* the event tho.
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i think Armel Coussine put it quite succintly
anyway
these are basically remodeled vauxhall engines and on the legonza doo dar model are quite tough
i would therefore assume that it was run with no oil and therefore corpeousk humpas and if i had sold it i would say see yous in court
as for the idea of leaving it on the street then you may get done for blocking the queens highway
if you leave it on dealers premises you might get into very nasty bother
tell sister to next time buy a simple cooking car like a fiesta and explain to her the handle under the dash is for pulling lid at front up to look at the wiggly bits once a week because cars like humans need bodily fluids to keep em going
ps dont give me the malarver that the oil is at max,i used to do that all the time when i was mugging cars into the auction and believe me they didnt get new oil either
sermon for the day if tha dunt no wat tha is doin take someone that dus and lets hope its not the postman or milkman that sometimes crosses my path who knows all but knows nowt but he did once have a cortina and he managed to change the plugs all by his little self
did i mention the internet warriers and their little sheets of printed paper where they cross likkle boxes off of things they need to check but in all honesty they dont even know what they are checking
buying bangers take a mechanic,pay him his time probably £60 once youve honed the car down to the one you intend buying and dont buy a car that busted the company had to be bought out by another company that went for chapter 11 and now just makes clones of clones
i thank you ..........
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You been drinking Bellboy because alot of that doesn't make sense?
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BB has voiced melodiously my first thought here, rumbling big ends (fairly precise diagnosis)....no oil at some point.
Best course of action, find another engine at the breakers and put it in, and keep the oil topped up, i liked the Leganza a lot.
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Im with Bellboy on this, well said.
If you buy cars with your eyes closed, be prepared for eye opening bills.
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>> You been drinking Bellboy because alot of that doesn't make sense?
>>
>>>>>>>>> sober as a judge im afraid..
i am just about to indulge in a bottle of ipa though
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Take a look at HJ review - 'engine oil can sludge, leading to starvation at the main bearings'
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>> Take a look at HJ review - 'engine oil can sludge, leading to starvation at
>> the main bearings'
>>>>>>>>>
>> any oil will sludge if you dont change it
probably also a reason i still prefer to remove sump plugs rather than suck the oil out like a soothsayer too
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Would normally agree with you there bellboy but my sister holds an HGV licence and having had an Astra which drank oil is fairly careful about checking.
Sludged up oil galleries would lead to oil starvation at the bearings the same way as running it low, except it couldn't be argued that the oil hadn't been changed as per schedule in the 3 months she owned the car.
It's still taxed and insured and can be parked where we like.
Of course, since you assume that the customer is always trying to cheat the dealer I suppose the reverse could be true, so will get a sample of the engine oil tested for its viscosity. Perhaps the dealer never changed the engine and stuck some thick oil in to disguise the knocking?
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Did this car have a full service history with all oil changes done?
Strikes me that she prob should have walked away when an engine change got mentioned. I would have done.
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Check the engine number against the V5. I don't think it will do you any good in the long run but it will indicate if the engine has been changed or the dealer is telling porkies.
I agree with BB about the sump plug, you can tell a lot about an engine if you can get it all out, rather than just the liquid stuff.
If your sis is going to be stuck for transport while all this is going on, I have a Fiesta, OHV with a long MOT. I could do with it being out of my way for a while so it's there for a loan if she wants.....I know you live near me.
Ted
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>> Did this car have a full service history with all oil changes done?
>>
IF it had a 'new' engine, then the service history would count to knowt, regarding the engine.
it sounds to me, the the engine wasn't changed, a bodge was done, and someone at the dealer will get their bum kicked for admitting to the engine noise.
get the engine number checked, see if it is the original one (ask a dealer), and also see what the V5 says the number should be.
if the engine is original I reckon you will have more clout - if its in writing that the engine was changed.
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Two people have mentioned the V5/engine number... Alfa, can you tell us if the engine was actually changed??
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Id still want to know what on earth would cause the original engine to fail and evidence of maintainance ( of lack thereof ) would give some indication.
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..Strikes me that she prob should have walked away when an engine change got mentioned. I would have done...
I thought the same. It's not the sort of thing you want to hear before buying the car. Walk away and find something better. My mate tried a few Mondeos before he settled on a decent one. One example he test drove had a knock from the nearside front that got faster the quicker he drove. He asked the salesman (who was sitting with him) "Will you be able to sort that out?", and the salesman said,"Do you think I'm made of money? Thats priced into the deal". The cheek of it!
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"My personal temptation is to dump the thing on the road outside the dealer with a big sign in it describing the problem"
Well watch that you don't make any unsubstantiated allegations or you could end up in court defending a libel case
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Missed this but the basic fact in law will be that a £1200 car should last longer than three months. I am sure in a small claims court your sister will win :)
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This is what the Citizens Advice Bureau says ........... tinyurl.com/kpqlpd
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Well it was pretty clear that it had a problem when she first looked at it... hence the engine change... so from the CAB page it seems that she should take it back and ask for repair/replacement...
However if she has it in writing that they were replacing that engine... and didn't... then I suspect she could demand her money back... so, was the engine changed or not? Also is it worth getting someone independant in to check out the engine?
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I reckon 3 months on a banger is reasonable!
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300 quid is a 3 months banger. you should expect more from 1200 quid.
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Not really, it wasnt worth £1200 in the first place. Paying over the odds for an old shed doesnt stop it being a shed. Is still question the logic of going ahead buying a car that 'needs a new engine'. Can you not sound an alarm bell any louder than that??
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It has to be fit for purpose and a £1200 car should last longer than three months. Any lawyer would argue as the car was priced about right (eg not too god to be true) therefore it should have lasted longer.
I bet the dealer just put some really thick oil in to try and hide the noise. I used to it in my first Fiesta, lovely 20/50 stuff mixed in with stop smoke was enough to fool the MOT inspector that the engine wasn't a duffer with no piston rings.
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very good point rattle
i bet he put eggs in the radiator and his wifes old stockings in the diff
and some nice trout under the back seat for the authentic smell of the seaside too
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Ill sell her my Carina for £1200, its not worth that, but atleast the engine doesnt knock, yet ;-)
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>> i bet he put eggs in the radiator and his wifes old stockings in the
>> diff
How about a tightly fitting wooden piston........good compression, running on all pots for a while until the piston burns away leaving no evidence.
Probably an urban legend.
Ted
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I assume they would notice the lack of a piston upon inspection! Reminds of the no engine in the car joke.
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dont know about urban legend but i knew a miss fit once
now she was nice
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....And ' fit ' ? presumably, BB.
Ted
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I think people did do the wooden piston thing with Jeeps in extremis Ted. But the piston was just there to keep the engine in some sort of balance and carry the top end of the conrod. The plug was taken out and the engine ran on 3 cylinders. Even like that you'd get a bit tired of it after a couple of hundred miles, and it might be getting a bit tired too... But by then resourceful Texan mechanics, or a consignment of new Jeeps, might be available.
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Just checked with home - I can confirm the engine was indeed changed. Garage has agreed to carry out repairs for free provided we supply the parts.
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Well its a start I suppose... Do you know what is actually wrong with it, though? I hate to say this, but unless its a cheap fix, parts wise, it might be better with another engine that you've sourced and therefore know is ok?
Anyone else with any thoughts...
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yes a new s/h engine but seeing as the garage accept liability for labour i would use this against them and see if they would swap the logonza doo dar for something a little more reliable like a fiesta and maybe €500 from OP to sweeten them
This way they get the original €300 they paid for the legonza plus the new €500 smackers and sis gets a fiesta they paid €700 smackers for and everythings sweet in the garden
ish........
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Not sure what engine this heap uses but I guess its some sort of GM cast off which may not be that easy to source.
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you surprise me there rattle
with all the heaps your families owned i honestly thought you were going to step forward as a white knight and say you had a pristine engine hiding under your coal scuttle int far shed
;-)
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Id be inclined to cut my losses and try and get atleast some money back, maybe what was paid minus the cost of the parts. Can still get a reasonable motor for that if you dont buy the first old banger you lay eyes on.
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Sourced from Wiki
The engine for this particular GM “Family”
The Leganza was a front-wheel drive car, available with a four-door sedan body only. The Leganza was powered by Holden-sourced E-TEC II DOHC 16V I4 engines (two displacements were made using the same block and bore, differing in stroke):
* 2.0 L (1998 cc) - 98 kW (131 HP), 184 N·m (136 lb·ft) of torque used in models sold in Europe
* 2.2 L (2198 cc) - 100 kW (134 hp), 191 N·m (141 lb·ft) of torque used mainly for the American and Australian market
Both engines came with either a 5-speed manual transmission, or a 4-speed automatic.
Replacement
D-TEC/E-TEC II
Holden makes various Family II engines for GM India and GM Daewoo at its Melbourne plant. Variations include displacements from 1.8 L to 2.4 L. Unlike the Ecotec engines, the block is made of iron.
L34
This is the 2.0 L—1,998 cc (121.9 cu in)—variant of the engines, featuring an 86 mm (3.4 in) bore and 86 mm (3.4 in) stroke. Power is 119 hp (89 kW) at 5400 rpm and torque is 126 lb•ft (171 N•m).
The engine has been used on following vehicles:
• Chevrolet Optra
• Chevrolet Evanda
• Suzuki Reno
• Suzuki Forenza
Other models
• 1.8 L - Chevrolet Lacetti, Chevrolet Nubira, Chevrolet Rezzo
• C24SE, *2.4 L SOHC - Isuzu Rodeo
• 2.4 L DOHC - Chevrolet Captiva, Opel Antara
Last edited by: Redviper on Tue 1 Jun 10 at 16:51
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>>
>> A couple of weeks ago the car lost power and, strangely enough, developed a very
>> loud rattle which sounded like one or more big ends had failed. Recovered home by
>> RAC. Upon contacting the dealer, he advised my sister that his cars only came with
>> a 3 month warranty and that she was on her own (despite being about 15
>> days outside of 3 months).
>>
Consumer law link provided by L'escargot states
"When a trader sells you goods, they may also offer you a guarantee or warranty. This could be free, or they may charge you extra for it. As a general rule, guarantees are usually given free of charge, whilst you usually have to pay for a warranty.
Traders aren't required by law to offer you a guarantee or warrantee.
Guarantees or warranties often have terms and conditions attached to them and limit what they offer you. However, they may offer extra protection on top of your other consumer rights. They can allow you to get goods replaced or repaired, or to get faulty work put right when your other consumer rights no longer apply."
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>> Consumer law link provided by L'escargot states
>> Traders aren't required by law to offer you a guarantee or warrantee.
I have now found about another regulation EU Directive 1999/44/EC
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=84129&v=t&m=979030
Digging via google www.wak-tt.com/tt/2yearwarranty1.htm
"The directive calls for
· a guarantee of at least one year for used goods (except those sold by a private seller)
Warranties on cars
Manufacturers are almost certainly going to increase their new car warranties to three years and, eventually the balance of the manufacturers warranty will cover the sales of nearly new cars. All other used cars will however need to be covered by a minimum of a one-year warranty that meets the requirement of the EU Directive and the new legislation."
Last edited by: John H on Tue 1 Jun 10 at 19:11
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Daewoo Leganza - Engine failure - "only 3 month warranty" - Skoda
