Which is better in every day driving - mostly around town?
(Torque converter not too common in small autos.)
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Torque converter is to be found in nearly all Far East built cars, exceptions for Toyota/Honda at least in European sales who after Toyota's unsuccessful daliance with automated manuals (MMT) seem to be moving into the CVT arena.
I belive all Korean cars have TC autos, even the tiny Matiz gets one and a lovely smooth box it is too.
I think the answer to this depends on how new the car is and how long you intend to keep, both are usually good to drive though the CVT may in some cases sound a bit different, but for a long trouble free service life and good drive you can't beat a well maintained torque converter auto.
Will be interesting to see how durable the latest CVT's from Toyota/Honda turn out over time.
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Jazz has 7 speed fixed CVT plus TC.*. Delightful. Changes imperceptible. Really. No jolts, bumps or lags.. Just seamless.
As long as the gearbox oil is changed. See Prius(es) with 400k on original gearbox..
Post March 2012.. Avoid all Jazz CVT before unless Honda modifications under warrnty. Run away from I Shi f t.
Last edited by: madf on Mon 12 Aug 13 at 10:43
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how small a car do you want?
Torque converter is available in small hyundai's and small suzuki's
had swift auto and i20 auto long term and both are much better than CVT or semi-auto rubbish
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I would always choose CVT over semi-auto although a proper torque converter box would be best with as many gears as possible.
I imagine a Honda CVT box would be rather nice, only driven old Rover, Ford and Nissan versions ( old Micra which was very good ).
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Subaru's 'lineartronic' is also a CVT - in the new Forester it gets 150g/km CO2 in the NA petrol version (6-spd manual = 160g/km)
No idea if it's good/bad/ugly to drive though.
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I be thinking that as much as I dislike the idea of a twin-clutch automated manual gearbox, I'd prefer to live with one of they, than any CVT gearbox so, that knocks the idea on the head re: buying a new Subi Foz for me,
even if I had £30k to throw at a main dealer.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 12 Aug 13 at 13:59
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Modern CVTs carefully driven (excludes muttering journalists mostly age mentally 16) are very quiet and controllable.
But as they are Japanese, the mags write them off for stoopid reasons..
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CVT's were noisy in the Daft 33 & 66, praps they've mooved on a bit since then ;)
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Out on a couple of shopping trips today in sunny Suffolk and I stalled the Panda twice 'cos of my insensitive trotters. :-(
I really need summat with a smooth start from stopped!
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Not surprised with a small petrol engined Fiat, 500 is similar as you would expect.
My trotters are still relatively sprightly and i should have been able to drive any car without stalling in my previous job, yet some cars will stall at the drop of a hat, Fiats small engines (and Ford Diesels..;) particularly easily.
You could do far worse than test drive a Picanto auto Roger if the car isn't too small for you, similarly and a little larger if needed would be a Daihatsu Sirion.
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I don't know about C V T, but my new Polo came with a 7 speed DSG box, my previous Golf had a torque converter, apart from the fuel consumption give me a torque converter any day.
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Roger ole son, do a search on Autotrader for automatics within a distance you are prepared to view sed automobile
+ how much you wanna fork out, like.
Then try a few, whether they are t/c, cvt or semi-skimmed, then you'll likely find one that suits you I'll wager.
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But do take care. Don't want to read another one of those "my car leaped forward all by itself and wouldn't stop" articles in the Mail. ;-)
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Found this: tinyurl.com/lolfphd
SWMBO had an immediate veto due to the VED band. (G)
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If you want an automatic Roger you are going to have to accept higher VED. The alternatives are a automated manual (hateful things, don't do it) or a CVT which will be hard to find.
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There's a lot of nonsense spoken about automated manuals. They can be perfectly smooth and useable once you (very quickly) get the hang. I had one in a Smart Roadster. Lovely thing.
Perhaps Roger could consider a Smart ForFour, thusly:
Petrol, VED Band E
www2.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201308108256050/
Diesel, VED Band C
www2.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201305186832532/
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>> There's a lot of nonsense spoken about automated manuals. They can be perfectly smooth and....
I have driven most different types of automated manuals now (although not a Smart I admit) and none of them have come anywhere near as smooth in operation as a proper TC automatic. Also I don't think one would be a good choice on an older car given the reliability and repair costs.
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>> I don't think one would be a good choice on an older car given the reliability and repair costs
That's a very good point actually re: autohated manuals - Dodger take note!
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I wouldn't cut your nose off to spite your face, you are going to have to compromise. I'd saying worrying about a small amount of extra tax isn't the best compromise. It's not a big amount in terms of running a car.
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The Smart is ugly, IMO,
This tinyurl.com/mm5353c is the Mitsubishi version.
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One of our regulars MD has a Mitsi Colt with the automated manual box, he always speaks well of it, if you really want an automanual thingy the Mitsi might be a better bet than others, the car itself i liked as with most Japanese models.
Don't know what your local Mitsi dealers are like the ones here are nothing to write home about if it involves more than taking your money.
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Hope to be testing a semi-auto this Saturday, when we are back home, just to see if it's a system with which both of us can live.
BTW - driving around rural Suffolk it strikes me that the cereal harvest looks pretty good this year. Many fields harvested, bald and a good few ploughed.
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I drove a Nissan Juke 1.6 CVT about 10 miles last week. Smooth and capable in traffic, but it suffered from the same problem as the TC Mazda6 auto - negligible poke below 3,000rpm. Makes for very noisy progress when gaining speed due to the high revs - the Volvo 340 was like that 25 years ago and I was disappointed to find the lack of progress in the Nissan (pun not intended, but I'll leave it in).
I'm a fan of VW DSGs, although I've only driven big diesels thus equipped so I can't vouch for the petrol tiddlers.
EDIT: Also drove a Ford S-Max Powershift. Don't know what kind of auto that was but it was horrible to drive.
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 15 Aug 13 at 21:31
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>>very noisy progress when gaining speed due to the high revs - the Volvo 340 was like that 25 years ago and I was disappointed to find the lack of progress in the Nissan
yuk, yuk, and thrice yuk - that's put me orf CVT's, for life!
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CVT Honda Jazz next on the list, if I can persuade Mrs. R to spend more time looking at cars. :-O
I also have my eye on a nice looking Suzuki Swift with slushbox, but think it might be a bit low for ingress and egress, having seen one in a car park today.
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Ford's Powershift is a dual-clutch job, I think, similar to DSG. Haven't tried one, but I have driven a Skoda DSG. As a transmission I found that OK - didn't notice the hesitancy others have complained of (in fact I find my MB TC auto more hesitant at town speeds) - but couldn't get on with programming that constantly had it in too high a gear.
Would be interested to know what Dave objected to in the Ford system. Didn't he post a glowing mini-review here of the Evoque 2.0? I wonder what transmission that uses - likely to be Ford too, I'd imagine.
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AUDI seem to be persevering with CVT don't they, since about 2004? My 2005 (early) Geartronic gearbox is certainly smooth, whatever else you might say about it. No grunt at all below 2000 rpm however.
Aren't CVTs supposed to be inherently more efficient? So will help to get the all important CO2 and mpg figures down a tad, which all the manufacturers seem obsessed with...
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>> Would be interested to know what Dave objected to in the Ford system
In the S-Max? It just seemed clunky, and ill-matched to the engine. The narrow torque band meant a long wait between bursts of acceleration in each gear.
>> Didn't he post a glowing mini-review here of the Evoque 2.0? I wonder what transmission that uses
The Evoque was a 6-speed TC auto which seems to be used in many applications:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AWTF-80_SC
The new 61-plate Evoque 2.0 se4 which I drove was up there with the Ferrari 599GTO for feeling "just right" on first acquaintance. Most cars you have to get used to for a few miles, but those two stood out for feeling as though I knew them inside out from the off.
Funnily enough, this afternoon I had a punt in a Nissan Juke NISMO CVT - the 197bhp model. It was completely different to the lowly 1.6 I drove a couple of weeks ago. The 249Nm peak torque in the NISMO meant that the CVT 'box only held 2,000rpm or thereabouts whilst the car displayed startling acceleration. Much more what a CVT 'box is about, IMO. Decent bucket seats too. Shame about the Audi-firm suspension :(
I also got to drive a Renault Zoe (nice), a Dacia Sandero Stepway (awful in every way) and a Dacia Duster (better than you'd think). Anyone going to the Leicester Racecourse motor show on Sunday can have a nose around them and make up their own mind.
Last edited by: Dave_TiD on Sun 18 Aug 13 at 00:40
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>>I also got to drive a Renault Zoe (nice)
I had the use of a Peugeot iOn for a whole morning when my car while my car was being serviced earlier this year.
I must say I enjoyed driving an electric car, and could well live with one for the sort of mileage we do p.a.
Renault have gorn about it in a different way in that the car is more affordable to purchase than say a Nissan Leaf but, you then have to lease the batteries for £70+ per month, worth considering for many peeps I would have thought.
www.honestjohn.co.uk/road-tests/renault/renault-zoe-2013-road-test/
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Decision made!
Just bought a Honda Jazz Auto. VERY low mileage with a service history. These Jazz autos certainly hold their price: you can ignore Glass's book prices.
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Sweet little cars with a good reputation, practical interior and refined mechanical bits. Firm suspension though.
And of course the Rastaman won't mind being thought elderly. Many of the best people are.
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Nice car if you don't do a lot of motorway driving. Had one for a year but it didn't really suit my needs Being rather high and slab sided they are not too good in side winds. Well made and practical though. Excellent town car.
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>> Nissan Leaf but, you then have to lease the batteries for £70+ per month, worth considering for many peeps I would have thought.
Did you drive a Renault Zoe Perro?
There are some nice electric cars available now, at a price. But they aren't practical for distances over about 50 miles, although they claim more. So if you want an actual car you need an actual car, or a hybrid at least. Electric cars are local runabout second cars for rich folks.
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Yes indeed a good choice Roger, Hondas arn't cheap for good reason, best of luck with it.
Madf knows what needs to be serviced with the gearbox for a long life, no doubt he'll be along to give you the gist.
Saw a Leaf in the flesh at Watford Gap yesterday, that is one ugly thing.
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Well done Roger . Good choice.
The gearbox oil needs changing every 60k miles -but really with a little used but old car it should be done sooner. but before you rush to get it done,. it IS VITAL
it is changed for the correct oil.
The Honda Jazz forum is full of LOTS of information.. search it. Some very nice people on it..and me as well :-)
clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=1901.msg8028#msg8028 for starters.
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SWMBO had the prevous model (8 valve engine) which she thought was fantastic. Never a problem. Manual (her choice) but I thought the CVT was very useful, plus it avoided haphazard gear choice and clutch riding.
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>> Well done Roger . Good choice.
>>
>> The gearbox oil needs changing every 60k miles -but really with a little used but
>> old car it should be done sooner. but before you rush to get it done,.
>> it IS VITAL
>> it is changed for the correct oil.
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>> The Honda Jazz forum is full of LOTS of information.. search it. Some very nice
>> people on it..and me as well :-)
>>
>> clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=1901.msg8028#msg8028 for starters.
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Yes - I'd found the ClubJazz and joined within an hour of getting back home!
I've already emailed the supplying dealer, who will be servicing the car before delivery, and requested that the gearbox oil is changed! I sent him a link to the forum where the oil question is debated, including a cut'n paste of the bit about the correct oil!
As a change of gearbox oil is not part of a "normal" service, I've offered to go halves on the cost of the oil as an incentive - he will be doing the work himself, so labour, as such ,is not an issue..
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My supplying dealer DID change the CVT oil at my insistence, even though he said it was clean and in his opinion not essential. He left the remains of the oil for me and following the links and discussion on the ClubJazz forum, which I emailed to him, it was genuine Honda AND the correct sort. Cost just under forty quid for 4 litres and, as agreed, I paid half.
Peace of mind :-)
The car drives beautifully and is so relaxing for me after the problem of co-ordinating throttle and clutch operation due to my rubbish feet's feeling, or lack of.
The only quibble so far is the blooming radio won't transmit sound to the speakers, although it appears from the display to be working and finding stations OK.
There's only one remote though; another one is necessary, but I bet it'll cost!
Currently bidding on eBay for a set of genuine Honda Jazz mats!
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>> The only quibble so far is the blooming radio won't transmit sound to the speakers,
>> although it appears from the display to be working and finding stations OK.
Plug come out of the back? Mute button?
>> There's only one remote though; another one is necessary, but I bet it'll cost!
There might only ever have been one. Our 2002 Civic came with two keys and one remote.
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Currently bidding on eBay for a set of genuine Honda Jazz mats!
! indeed. Do they have pictures on them?
}:---8
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>>Did you drive a Renault Zoe Perro?
Nay Sire, t'was a Purgeot iOn www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/peugeot/ion-2010/
The Renault Zoe has a maximum range of 130 smiles between charges.
>>Electric cars are local runabout second cars for rich folks
Maybe an electric jamjar could well work out ok as a main car for many non-rich folk who don't cover a great many miles p.a. like us.
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>> Maybe an electric jamjar could well work out ok as a main car for many non-rich folk who don't cover a great many miles p.a. like us.
No doubt about it Perro. It would suit us sometimes for weeks at a time. But then there are the other times...
I was reading about the snazzy BMW i8 in yesterday's comic. Only 95 grand for the smartest plug-in hybrid not yet quite on the market, and even that will start to flag, the hack said, if you drive it fast for any distance. Nor does the layout of one motor at and driving each end seem a good one to me. Apparently they expect big queues in California but I wouldn't touch the thing with a bargepole, partly because it's incredibly flash looking and partly because it doesn't look much good to me.
What's wrong with a nice purring Prius, can maintain quite a decent speed while doing 40mpg or better?
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I'll stick with the Subi for now Sire, 27MPG on a good day with a tail wind.
:}
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>>Flash caaaaahn' !!!
And, the PT cruiser???
:}
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>>Nor does the layout of one motor at and driving each end seem a good one to me
I don't agree.
Using the road between the front and the rear axles provides an excellent way to couple the two parts of the hybrid drive system together without adding extra weight or complication. It gives excellent flexibility, front wheel drive, rear wheel drive, four wheel drive, and allows the electric motor to act as a generator when the vehicle is being driven by the engine. All rather neat.
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>> and allows the electric motor to act as a generator when the vehicle is being driven by the engine.
The Prius does that without the dumb-bell layout. I repeat, I don't like it. There's a high probability of anomalous power delivery at one end or the other sooner or later. It will give trouble where you least need it: in the way the thing drives and handles.
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>>There's a high probability of anomalous power delivery at one end or the other sooner or later.
Why? I don't see how there's any more or less risk than any other type of parallel hybrid.
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There's no more risk, that would be the same. But if the engine and motor are powering different axles, if an anomaly does occur the vehicle may be destabilized under power, leading to unexpected under/oversteer for example. If the engine and motor are on a common crankshaft or centre, driving one axle, obviously that won't happen: there will just be a reduction or surge in power delivery.
That's why I don't trust that layout. It's a bad principle.
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>>there will just be a reduction or surge in power delivery.
Which would be similarly likely to provoke a change in handling.
There's nothing wrong with the principle.
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>> similarly likely to provoke a change in handling.
Yes, I know, but it's likely to be a less radical change.
>> There's nothing wrong with the principle.
Looks stupid to me - BMW a victim of hubris, assuming everything will continue to work perfectly into the distant future, when any fule kno it won't. The other thing is that the i8 is made of carbon fibre and is very light, but has the machinery at either end - dumb-bell weight distribution, known to cause difficult handling.
I'm sure the thing is impressive, might even have a seductive side to those who like its looks. But it looks crap to me, in principle and in the flesh.
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>>Yes, I know, but it's likely to be a less radical change.
Really? Not sure how you work that one out.
>>assuming everything will continue to work perfectly into the distant future, when any fule kno it won't.
Not sure why that's a charge against this particular car, or rather you're having a pop at all hybrids?
>>dumb-bell
The really heavy bits, the batteries, are in the middle. So, it's nothing like a dumb-bell.
It's perhaps a good thing you're not an engineer.
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>> a good thing you're not an engineer.
I'd have made a perfectly good one.
Of course I'm not having a pop at all hybrids. Just this one. Piece of rubbish, with a basic design flaw. Only a Californian would want one. Or someone with a touching faith in everlasting German engineering.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Mon 19 Aug 13 at 16:39
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>> the batteries, are in the middle. So, it's nothing like a dumb-bell.
A dumb-bell with a heavy handle is still a dumb-bell... perhaps it has neutral weight distribution - the piece didn't say - but it's very quick albeit only for half a lap of the Nurburgring. The hack said he had experienced, only once, a 'strange understeer about halfway through a corner'. I doubt if one often gets prods of strange understeer in a Prius for example, and there must by now be quite a few around that aren't working quite as they were designed to work.
I can't believe a sensible person like you fancies this thing N_C. I bet a few of those Californians will go up trees in it in short order.
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No, I don't fancy it at all.
However, that's not because of the hybrid drive system it uses, or how the drivetrain is laid out.
As for the hack - like amny of his kind, technically, he doesn't know his Auris from his Volvo - the fundamental problem isn't the drive layout, it's the control algorithm, and that would the case for any parallel hybrid.
If you look back, your objection isn't even self consistent, never mind actually making sense!
If there's one car manufacturer who really understands the link between mass distribution and handling, it's BMW.
Looking another way at the mass distribution, what would you prefer?, all the mass at one end?
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>>> If there's one car manufacturer who really understands the link between mass distribution and handling, it's BMW.
One would hope so. And the i8 suspension is all wishbone classic adjustable perfection. Perhaps it was a mistake to say dumb-bell. But an engine at one end and a motor at the other, driving separate axles? It's an absolute guarantee of trouble sooner than necessary. The algorithm won't allow for all possible modes of deterioration in both drives. Eventually something a bit odd will start to happen. And it will cost a bit to put right.
I don't know the hack. But he gets to drive a lot of cars and seems to make sense. Doesn't look like made-up garbage to me.
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>>But an engine at one end and a motor at the other, driving separate axles?
I really don't see your objection to this. Using the road as the connecting element between the two parts of the powertrain is surely elegance in the extreme rather than relying upon heavy shafts and gears?
I would have also through that this powertrain with its near complete mechanical and electrical isolation actually provides a great degree of redundancy and is therefore less likely to leave the car stranded.
I don't see your point about reliability standing up - I would argue that this powertrain is among the more inherently reliable of the parallel hybrids.
As for the mid corner behaviour, one of the more interesting development tasks is to improve the control algorithms to improve ride, handling, and driveability - it's not an obvious or easy thing when the powertrain has so many modes of operation.
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>> it's not an obvious or easy thing when the powertrain has so many modes of operation.
Well, exactly. But it isn't a powertain, it's two powertrains. If it were a single powertrain anomalous behaviour by one or the other power source would be swallowed up and damped, averaged out as it were. With two powertrains there's the possibility (remote of course one has to admit) of anomalous or even contradictory functioning.
No hybrid is left standing. But this one runs out of puff and goes slower after half a lap despite its red trousers. Tchah!
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>>or even contradictory functioning.
We're getting there (slowly)
That's OK though, not a problem. In fact, it's one of the "modes" of operation, where the fuel burning half of the hybrid produces more power than the vehicle needs, and the surplus charges the battery.
What would be a problem would be a sudden switch into that mode mid-corner. But, that would be just as problematic with any other parallel hybrid!
>>runs out of puff
Yes, it looks like the battery capacity has been sized a little meanly - although adding batteries during a design is always problematic, as the self weight of the battery cannot be neglected, where the self weight of another litre of fuel is usually in the noise.
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>> >>Electric cars are local runabout second cars for rich folks
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>> Maybe an electric jamjar could well work out ok as a main car for many
>> non-rich folk who don't cover a great many miles p.a. like us.
Would have worked fine for my mother for most of her teaching job from 1967 until 2005. Up to school and back was maybe 10 miles round - add 400yds for nipping into Morrisons' on way home.
If school wanted her to do (as they did) occasional home visits as far away as Wakefield they'd have to provide a pool car or taxis.
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>> I must say I enjoyed driving an electric car, and could well live with one
>> for the sort of mileage we do p.a.
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>> www.honestjohn.co.uk/road-tests/renault/renault-zoe-2013-road-test/
>>
Second hand Renault Fluences are available now for about 8-9k, plus the battery rental. that looks about the best electric car deal around at the moment. So long as you'd ordinarily use more than £70 worth of petrol/diesel/lpg a month, of course. It would definitely work as an everyday car for us, perhaps I'll think about it in future. A conventional car could be rented for longer journeys.
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>>Second hand Renault Fluences are available now for about 8-9k, plus the battery rental. that looks about the best electric car deal around at the moment
I was was similarly forward thinking re: when "pre-owned" Zoe models are se vende.
>>So long as you'd ordinarily use more than £70 worth of petrol/diesel/lpg a month, of course
Easy, for most peeps.
>>A conventional car could be rented for longer journeys
Great minds think alike!
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" January 2012 launch cars (demonstration and press fleet) sold off in June/July 2013 for just £9,000"
www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/renault/fluence-ze-2012/
Good price though for a 2012 model, AND Band A VED!
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I know this looks a trifle weird but, it's the same car (more or less) as the Peugeot iOn that I had the use of for a morning.
www2.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201303095696681/
I'm a dyed-in-the-wool petrol head, known putting a dab or two of 4 star behind each ear most mornings although I could happily live with a car like that.
Now, where did I put that zimmer frame ... !
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>> >> Would be interested to know what Dave objected to in the Ford system
>>
>> In the S-Max? It just seemed clunky, and ill-matched to the engine. The narrow torque
>> band meant a long wait between bursts of acceleration in each gear.
>>
That's funny. I really like the way our (163 TDI) S-Max Powershift drives. Seamless acceleration, and smooth gear changes. Which engine did yours have?
(What I do NOT like about the S-Max is it's lack of spare wheel. I had the second puncture this year in it over the week-end. Not wanting to ruin a repairable half-worn tyre with their gunk meant driving to the tyre fitter today to have it repaired, knowing it could blow at any minute. I've said it before, and I will say it again: I will NOT buy a car without a spare again!)
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We've just done our first extended trip in the Jazz CVT - a three hour, 148 mile, trip to Suffolk.
I have to report that it is vary nice to drive!
I played with the "manual" seven speed option, but it seemed to be perfectly happy in full auto mode, even on the long straight bits. In fact the RPM dropped a little when shifting to auto from manual, at the same indicated speed.
Economy seems good - the 235 miles cumulative trip mpg, taken from the last time I zeroed it, just after getting the car and thus including several short shopping trips, is just under40 mpg.
I shall be keeping a more accurate long term consumption record, using Fuelly.
Last edited by: Roger on Sun 1 Sep 13 at 20:22
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CVT v semi-auto - -
