Talking on your phone while driving is dangerous, right? We all know that.
Or do we...
www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23631406
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One size doesn't fit all, it never will.
Some people can drive perfectly well whilst conversing on the phone and munching a kit kat, some people are a menace behind the wheel if they concentrate 120% on nothing but their driving and will be as long as they live.
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Sometimes accidents are caused by distraction resulting from phone use. Usually they are caused by other factors too numerous to list.
Good to see a newspaper report that by implication attributes most accidents quite rightly to crap driving.
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Yes, sometimes accidents are caused by distraction resulting from phone use, also having the phone in your hand affects your ability to control the wheel. Therefore, do everything possible to eliminate it, because it can cause accidents. If people are inadequate drivers they should not pass the driving test - it can't be demanding enough. Just because there are multiple causes of collisions does not make any wrong driving behaviour any less wrong. In my view, we need more unmarked police cars and compulsory refresher training to maintain/improve driving standards. People do not seem to appreciate the consequences bad driving can have.
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Nearly every white van man I see seems to be on the phone, not hands free either.
The obvious answer is to add driving while using a mobile phone to the driving test.
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I had to admire our coach driver the way he drove the old bus here and abroad.Made me feel a amateur compared to professional drivers.
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I don't think using a phone while driving is dangerous unless you are pretty rubbish at either to start with. I think texting or other fingerwork is more dangerous than calls, and some people get into deep discussions that distract them rather than just the hello, "I'm stuck in traffic" or "shall I pick up a kilo of tomatoes on my way home dear?"
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I don't think that talking hands free on the phone whilst driving is any different to talking to passengers in your car whilst driving. In fact if you have someone in your car you tend to look at them on and off as you talk, where as being hands free on the phone does not require you to take your eyes off the road as such.
Last edited by: Simon on Sun 11 Aug 13 at 09:52
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>> I don't think that talking hands free on the phone whilst driving is any different
>> to talking to passengers in your car whilst driving.
I agree. However, surely the point about mobile phone use is those drivers who do not use hands free. They are not able to have two hands on the wheel ( unless of course they have three hands ) and are not driving correctly. I also think drivers talking to passengers should keep their eyes on the road. Its not rude, its safer. Television programmes often set a very bad example with this.
Last edited by: belucky22 on Sun 11 Aug 13 at 11:06
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OK, let's be honest here....
How many of you settle down on a long A road or motorway run with BOTH hands on the wheel anyway?
To me it indicates a very nervous, and usually unsafe, driver anyway.
Pat
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Pat, are you suggesting there's a different rule for motorways? I don't think there is!
Besides, the safety argument - as demonstrated by the research that has compared the effects on driving ability of hands-on phone use, hands-free and alcohol, and shown alcohol to be the least dangerous - is not really about hands but about eyes and brains.
Anyone who's in the car with you and isn't (a) a small child or (b) an idiot can tell when you need to stop talking and concentrate entirely on the road. My children have learned this and now wait for an answer to their "Dad, why..." questions. It doesn't work like that on the phone, which also demands far more concentration than a face-to-face conversation. I spend hours each week on phone conferences that sometimes leave me exhausted because of the effort required to follow the thread - and that's through a binaural headset at my desk. I couldn't possibly combine that with driving, and it appals me that anyone thinks they could; get some insight!
And yes, I do play music or listen to speech radio in the car, but I turn it off if I'm in one of those situations. And I don't drink coffee or eat more than the occasional jelly baby.
There's another aspect to distraction, which is what happens when the phone rings. There's a slave-to-the-mobile type that jumps at the sound, regardless of what else they're doing. I was a passenger recently in an expensive car with a colour touchscreen and Bluetooth everything, and as we left a petrol station on to a busy, complicated suburban double roundabout, the phone chirped, loudly. The driver's attention switched in an instant to the phone, before he remembered where he was. I don't see how it's socially - never mind legally - acceptable to have a device built into a car that can have that effect.
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One would instinctively agree with your comments about the dangers of phone use, but the link I posted at the start basically says "they" looked at an eight million strong dataset (in the States) and found no correlation between a known increased phone use at certain times of day and any increase in accident rates, against all expectations. As I understand it to say.
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>> OK, let's be honest here....
>>
>> How many of you settle down on a long A road or motorway run with
>> BOTH hands on the wheel anyway?
>>
>> To me it indicates a very nervous, and usually unsafe, driver anyway.
>>
>> Pat
To me, seeing one hand off the wheel, or an elbow on the window ledge, indicates a driver who isn't paying proper attention. Wide berth.
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>> To me, seeing one hand off the wheel, indicates a driver who isn't paying proper attention. Wide berth.
Difficult to change gear (unless it's an auto) to not take one hand off the wheel. You must give a lot of people wide berths.
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How often do you change gear on the motorway?
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>> How often do you change gear on the motorway?
Depends on the traffic, roadworks, contraflows, and road conditions.
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You're too close to the vehicle in front if you're changing gear often, contraflows or not. I was replying to Pat speaking of "settling down" on a long motorway/A road drive. I wasn't talking about stop/start conditions. That much should have been obvious.
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End of the day you drive how you feel most comfortablest. To give someone a wide berth just because they choose to drive with one hand on the wheel is silly. For starters you don't know the circumstances as to why they're driving one handed.
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>> End of the day you drive how you feel most comfortablest. To give someone a
>> wide berth just because they choose to drive with one hand on the wheel is
>> silly. For starters you don't know the circumstances as to why they're driving one handed.
>>
Yes I do. They're not paying attention 100%, they are not in the best position to control their vehicle in every eventuality. It will take them longer to instigate an evasive manoeuvre/recover a skid/deal with a blow out than someone driving properly. And don't come back with changing gear again, it only takes a second or two.
So I give these sort of drivers (slack ones) more room and more distance (and get past them more quickly if I'm overtaking them on a motorway) than would be strictly necessary with proper drivers, which is what I imagine motoring and car enthusiasts to be, rather than louche poseurs.
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>> Yes I do. They're not paying attention 100%,
Neither are you. While they're looking ahead, concentrating on upcoming road conditions, you're looking at them and not paying attention to what's going on in front of you.
>> they are not in the best position to control their vehicle in every eventuality. It will take them longer to instigate an evasive manoeuvre/recover a skid/deal with a blow out than someone driving properly.
Neither are you. You're too busy rubber necking and seeing what everyone else is doing instead of minding your own business.
To take your eyes off the road to stare at other motorists (especially when overtaking them) is far more dangerous that driving one handed, IMHO.
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>>> they are not in the best position to control their vehicle in every eventuality. It will take them longer to instigate an evasive manoeuvre/recover a skid/deal with a blow out than someone driving properly. And don't come back with changing gear again, it only takes a second or two.
Of course Alanovic is completely correct in that statement. One handed driving may be practised by those with disabilities or those that wish to demonstrate they are so so relaxed but a two handed relaxed driver may save your life one day.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Mon 12 Aug 13 at 15:21
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No, no. You haven't read AC's post. Driving with two hands means you're an uptight maniac who spends half his time in the ditch.
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Did you tell him that was nothing to do with your hands?
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Ahh you have to remember where he's coming from... there's relaxed, very relaxed and then there's AC.
And you have to let Pat off as she's a lorry driver.
If we met on the road Alanovic shame we couldn't wave with both hands fixed in a vice like grip on the wheel!
Last edited by: Fenlander on Mon 12 Aug 13 at 15:32
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>> > but a two handed relaxed driver may save your life one day.
>>
The two-handed drivers I watch in our car-park anxiously feeding the wheel from hand to hand look anything but relaxed as they frantically try to manoeuvre fast enough to avoid hitting anything.
So too do the drivers I meet on narrow lanes who freeze up when they meet something and seem incapable of turning the wheel far enough to use the passing places.
A professional van-driver however spinning the wheel with the heel of his hand by comparison looks in complete control.
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>> looks in complete control.
>>
And as we all know looks can be deceptive.
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>> A professional van-driver however spinning the wheel with the heel of his hand by comparison looks in complete control.
Except when they slip and connect with their plums.
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>> To me, seeing one hand off the wheel, or an elbow on the window ledge,
>> indicates a driver who isn't paying proper attention.
Just as well you can't see into most lorry cabs then, the only lorry drivers i see with both hands glued to the 10 to 2 position are those featured in the Eddie Stobart fly on the wall adverts.
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>> Just as well you can't see into most lorry cabs then
Indeed.
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Indeed.
..and they travel around 50 to 80 thousand miles in their work vehicles alone annually and often manage 30 plus years without the slightest incident.
Witness Friday and Sunday afternoon/evening road chaos every week when dozens of car driver lemmings ram each other up the back side on open motorways.
Think i'll run happily with those cruising relaxed one handed and using adequate observation to avoid problems.
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>> Indeed.
>> ..and they travel around 50 to 80 thousand miles in their work vehicles alone annually
>> and often manage 30 plus years without the slightest incident.
At 56mph. I'm not sure about Pat, but I was talking about car drivers, who are usually doing 80, 5 feet from the back of everyone else. Don't know why my post got twisted in to a trucker v car driver points scoring match, but there you go. I'll still give extra consideration to any driver I see with only one hand on the wheel whatever they are driving, be it Audi, Scania or milk float.
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>> To me, seeing one hand off the wheel, or an elbow on the window ledge,
>> indicates a driver who isn't paying proper attention. Wide berth.
>>
Well that's fine then?
Suits both of us.
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>>
>> >> To me, seeing one hand off the wheel, or an elbow on the window
>> ledge,
>> >> indicates a driver who isn't paying proper attention. Wide berth.
>> >>
And me, also the ones that amuse me are the supposedly "cool" drivers with their arm hanging down the outside of the drivers door. That was made an offence in Australia after a few taxi drivers lost their arms in sideswipe accidents.
Another amusing one is the car with structural integrity problems and requires its roof to be held on.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 12 Aug 13 at 10:57
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I know someone who manages quite well with one hand: tinyurl.com/lzescet
He's a lot better driver than me!
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I worked for many years with a lorry driver who passed his lorry test with a severely disabled arm which he had to pick up with his other arm to raise it.
He managed the job perfectly and never had an accident as I know of, what's more, presumably the DSA had passed him as fit to drive a lorry like that.
I'm glad you pass us quickly Alanovic, I wish more people would do:)
I drive my car in the same style as I have always driven a lorry, one hand on the gearstick or arm rest.....but still accident free!
Pat
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That's great, Pat. Here's hoping that doesn't come back to haunt you, or even worse someone else.
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Next time someone in a praying mantis, sit-up-and-beg, white-knuckled, ten-to-two posture of extreme tension and concentration comes screaming past me with their offside wheels in the ditch on the other side of the road, I will know who it is. But I hope it never happens.
I am appalled by the things you have been saying Alanović, and very surprised. You make yourself sound tense, nervous and dangerous. It's very important to be relaxed at the wheel, while remaining vigilant.
I'm with Pat and other louche poseurs on this one.
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Then you're reading too much in to it. I'm perfectly relaxed and confident at the wheel.
I thought you might be appalled. You're always appalled when someone has a responsible attitude to road safety.
How you've inferred that caricature of my driving speaks volumes.
Do you folks tell your insurers that you deliberately drive with only one hand for no good reason? Arm leaning casually on the arm rest/gear stick?
www.esure.com/media_centre/archive/driving_one_hand.html
Driving without the use of all available limbs/faculties can surely not make anyone any safer.
Last edited by: Alanović on Mon 12 Aug 13 at 15:16
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>>Driving without the use of all available limbs/faculties can surely not make anyone any safer.
True, but surely, within reason, the more comfortable you are then the more you will concentrate on the road?
I drive with my hands mostly both on the wheel, but by no means always and certainly often with an arm on the armrest on long journeys
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>> True, but surely, within reason, the more comfortable you are then the more you will
>> concentrate on the road?
What's so uncomfortable about keeping both hands on the wheel? the fewer bits of you in touch with the controls, the less your control of it in an emergency/unexpected situation. They do happen, even to the coolest cat in the litter.
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>>the fewer bits of you in touch with the controls, the less your control of it in an emergency/unexpected situation<<
Cue a picture in my mind of Alanovic driving prostrate across the steering wheel in order to gain even more control over that errant Renault:)
Sorry...........
Pat
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Ask John Lyon to tell you on oath if he practices what he preaches and he would tell you no....after a moments thought.
The safest drivers are those to whom it comes automatically, who don't think of what action they are taking, just instinctive actions as and when needed, always alert but relaxed.
It is those drivers who will be immediately on top of any situation thrown at them, not the ones who are concentrating on keeping both hands on the wheel when their nose is itching.
Pat
Last edited by: pda on Mon 12 Aug 13 at 15:44
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>> the ones who are concentrating on keeping both hands on the wheel when
>> their nose is itching.
Oh dear. That's a little silly.
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>> It is those drivers who will be immediately on top of any situation thrown at them
Indeed Pat. In fact if it's you or me we will usually be moving to deal with the situation before it arises, having seen it developing.
Of course you can't win them all. The road can have a nasty sense of humour. Best to have one yourself. It helps with anticipation. That enables you to win most of them.
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AC, who said those if us with two hands on the wheel lack anticipation? Oh, you did. You're making it up. Your inference is totally baseless.
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When I did my HGV training, (a few light years ago), I was taught that the only time you take a hand off the wheel is to change gear. Also that you do not brake unless you have both hands on the wheel. I suspect that things may have moved on. :-)
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>> AC, who said those if us with two hands on the wheel lack anticipation? Oh, you did. You're making it up.
I don't remember saying that and I don't think you will be able to find a quote from me to that effect. It would be an utterly moronic thing to say. It's you that seem to be making things up.
Do calm down comrade. Clearly you have misunderstood my attempts to tease you about both hands on the wheel, scrutiny of other people's steering techniques and wide berths. As I have already said, you can't be nearly as awful behind the wheel as you make yourself sound, or you would no longer be among us.
Tsk.
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The inference is quite clear, AC. You and Pat relaxed and full of anticipation, ready to spring in to action, me and Fenlander and Old Navy digging our fingernails in to the leather, eyes bulging in utter terror at the thought of encountering other traffic to the detriment of our anticipatory skills.
Please, take it from me, I'm quite calm. You often seem to think I'm on the edge of some nervous breakdown over these little discussions, it's quite amusing really.
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For what it's worth, I think I drive better when I set my stall out properly with two hands to the wheel. Certainly did no harm when the neddy tried to kill us on the A5 a few weeks ago, I don't think I could have managed the violent swerve and recovery one handed.
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Inference schminference... I was teasing you (not ON or Fenlander!) for making yourself sound like that.
You can't categorize people's driving by fixing on some slobbish-looking habit they may have, or the fact that they wear a hat, drive a BMW etc. High mileage adult drivers look at the vehicle's body language rather than the driver's, and for a good long time, to see how it behaves with shaping or actual hazards. That's the only way to assess the way a car is being driven. And that's the thing that matters, not the fact that the driver has an elbow on the sill or is apparently lounging lopsidedly in his seat.
I'm glad something amuses you even if you aren't amused by my jokes.
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Ambivalent about the whole thing.
I don't think that talking on the phone has any particular impact on my driving, yet equally after a long conversation I can't remember anything about the road during that time. So, presumably some aspect of my available capacity if focussed on the phone. But the same thing happens if I have passengers, so it might just be me.
I tend to think that setting fire to a bunch of dried leaves in your car and then inhaling the fumes is somewhat more dangerous, but the powers that be disagree.
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>> setting fire to a bunch of dried leaves in your car and then inhaling the fumes is somewhat more dangerous, but the powers that be disagree.
Yes, we certainly do.
:o}
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>>>The safest drivers are those to whom it comes automatically, who don't think of what action they are taking, just instinctive actions as and when needed, always alert but relaxed. It is those drivers who will be immediately on top of any situation thrown at them...
Indeed and a driver like that who also realises two hands on the wheel at all possible/sensible times will greatly assist vehicle control in an emergency... well they're the best.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Mon 12 Aug 13 at 16:36
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>> You're always appalled when someone has a responsible attitude to road safety.
Oh really Alanović, what nonsense.
>> How you've inferred that caricature of my driving speaks volumes.
The caricature was yours essentially. I'm sure it's misleading though. You can't be as bad as you make yourself sound.
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I was reflecting only yesterday how really easy a modern car is to drive with one hand.
There are a few minimal tasks that occasionally need two, such as changing gear while going round a corner, fiddling with the in-car entertainment media, operating the heater controls, etc, but normally it just needs one finger for the wheel and another on the same hand to flick the switches and indicators.
My wife had a great aunt who lost her arm in youth while trailing it out of a car window. Its loss never seemed to cause any driving problems.
In most other walks of life the ability to multi-task is considered desirable, so why is mobile phone use singled out for disapproval? Perhaps it might be more sensible to switch tack and teach use while driving, rather than try to enforce prohibition?
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>> I was reflecting only yesterday how really easy a modern car is to drive with
>> one hand.
Yes, and the two hands on the steering wheel harks back to an age when you really had to hold the wheel due to steering kickback and no power steering. I don't think it's as relevant today, but people should do whatever is more comfortable. I like one handed personally.
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I spent decades driving one handed and cornering with my palm on the wheel rim. I didn't feel it was especially dangerous of itself then, or now.
But I still think I drive better with two hands. Precise and deliberate road positioning is easier and feel is better somehow, provided one doesn't grip too hard. Especially true on a car with slightly faster steering and when knocking on a bit, where control needs to be a bit finer.
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This is what happens. The one handed, nose-scratching, laid-back driver's spare hand goes back to the wheel, and his head starts glancing about, as he bears down at high speed on say Hyde Park Corner in rush hour. These things happen completely automatically and unconsciously when you are passing convergent slip roads and heading into some busy tangle where you may have to change lanes a couple of times.
That's what happens. There's no need to make a display of care where care is actually redundant.
I know, I know... 'What if a child ran out?'
Well: that nipper would be begging for it. All right?
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"The one handed, nose-scratching, laid-back driver............"
A good driver is a) prepared for the unexpected b) probably trained on a motorbike.
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>> I like one handed personally.
>>
Matron.
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>>>How many of you settle down on a long A road or motorway run with BOTH hands on the wheel anyway?
I do Pat... you may not like it but you can't say it is wrong.
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>> >>>How many of you settle down on a long A road or motorway run with
>> BOTH hands on the wheel anyway?
>>
>> I do Pat... you may not like it but you can't say it is wrong.
I do as well. Has to be said however that both hands are probably not in the proscribed 10 to 2 position when cruising down the M way.
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>>I do Pat... you may not like it but you can't say it is wrong. <<
Where did I say it was wrong?
I passed my opinion on the safest drivers, that's all.
Love it or hate it, it's served me well over many, many miles>
Pat
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Ah yes. "It'll never happen to me." The classic mantra of the terminally delusional.
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Who here is thin-skinned or half-witted enough to think that was offensive?
Anyway, did any of the pro-phoners bother to look at the BBC article and consider the 'scientific method' these researchers used? As far as I can tell their reasoning went like this:
- Many US networks offer free calls after 9pm...
- ...therefore more users choose to make calls after 9pm.
- Some of these calls will be made while driving.
- The rate of accidents does not increase after 9pm...
- ...therefore using your mobile while driving does not increase your risk of an accident.
Brilliantly simple, and utterly flawless...to anyone who's never been in a car. Because the traffic and road conditions before 9pm are just the same as after, aren't they? Aren't they?
Very surprised that this comes with the names of two such prestigious institutions attached.
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Never mind driving, any passenger (car, train, taxi or bus) and pedestrians would have fallen into their criteria and influenced their results.
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>> Who here is thin-skinned or half-witted enough to think that was offensive?
The irony there is that the truly offensive stuff in this thread is from people, some professionals who should know better, who are advocating unnecessarily increasing the risk of accident for the sake of their "image", on the grounds that, well, they should carry on because it hasn't done them any harm. Yet. People like Pat should be banging the drum for better driving standards and less selfish behaviours on the roads, not supporting the likes of AC's campaign to reduce our road safety record to that of a banana republic.
It's a shame, but it'll be hard to take anything Pat has to say on driving standards seriously after this. I had more respect for her than that, but this thread is eroding it.
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Pat, or anyone else who thinks that steering one-handed is a good idea should go out with a police driving instructor. The sarcasm and embarrassment that ensues will ensure that you always remember the lesson. My boss forgot and rested his arm on the window - "Got a poorly arm, have we, sir???"
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>> The irony there is that the truly offensive stuff in this thread is from people,
>> some professionals who should know better, who are advocating unnecessarily increasing the risk of accident
>> for the sake of their "image", on the grounds that, well, they should carry on
>> Pat, or anyone else who thinks that driving one-handed
What a load of absolute carp.
Last edited by: corax on Tue 13 Aug 13 at 16:59
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Driving one-handed can't possibly be safer than driving two-handed.
However, I'm not sure its particularly worse either.
The bottleneck in an emergency situation is your brain working out what's going on and what to do about it. Actually doing it is not the larger issue.
So anything which prevents or slows your brain from working out what's going on and what to do about it is a significant issue.
Talking on a phone must make your brain slower to notice what is going on. Talking to a passenger, sitting uncomfortably ditto & focusing on anything unduly ditto.
Saying that something has not happened has no bearing on whether or not it will happen.
"I've driven like this for millions of miles" is about as useful as saying that you've smoked for 30 years and don't have lung cancer.
The chances of it happening are still higher. Perhaps not much, but nonetheless higher.
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The act of using a phone while driving is no more dangerous than drinking coffee, eating a yorkie bar or smoking a fag.
The dangerous part of using a phone while driving is making a call, or answering a call, where - inevitably, you take your eyes off the road and concentration is diverted badly.
The law, as it stands, does not prevent such actions (if its in a cradle) and subsequently has done nothing to alleviate the danger or change the statistics. The only reason the law forbids using a phone in your hand, is because its the only action thats visible and therefore enforceable.
Lighting a fag while driving is dangerous as well. Specially when you are p issed.
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>>Lighting a fag while driving is dangerous as well. Specially when you are p issed
B loody right. I've burned my nose more than once on the way home from the pub when lighting a fag and hitting a bump at the same time.
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>>"I've driven like this for millions of miles" is about as useful as saying that you've smoked for 30 years and don't have lung cancer.<<
The big difference is that those of us who admit to driving like this have had to take avoiding action many times (while doing so) to avoid the driver grasping the steering wheel with both hands and white knuckles.
The person who has smoked for 30 years hasn't had to take emergency action to avoid cancer Mark, so your argument is a very tacit one.....* note to self perhaps, must try harder*!
Pat
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Pat, I don't understand your point; Did you mean "tacit"?
Nonetheless, its like I said. It cannot be safer. Doesn't mean its much worse though since the most important is readiness, alertness and to a lesser extent ability.
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>> "I've driven like this for millions of miles" is about as useful as saying that
>> you've smoked for 30 years and don't have lung cancer.
Reminds me of road works a few years ago. Idiots had the compressor on the SE side of junction and were drilling on SW side. Pneumatic hose wriggling about like an Anaconda across width of Kingsway.
Dismounted and located supervisor to point out risk to 2 wheel users. It's fine he said, we've been here for an hour and nobody's fallen off so far.
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>> because it hasn't done them any harm. Yet.<<
Yet those of us banging that drum Alanovic all have an accident free record over many more miles than most car drivers.
Care to explain how that has happened, or have we just been lucky every day for the past 30 years or so?
>> People like Pat should be banging the
>> drum for better driving standards and less selfish behaviours on the roads, <<
I bang that drum in every direction I can Alanovic, I just don't think slavishly following the Highway Code is the ultimate answer to road safety.
Better training in how to DRIVE and not how to pass a test would be one thing.
Another would be to make motorway driving compulsory in the car test.
>> It's a shame, but it'll be hard to take anything Pat has to say on
>> driving standards seriously after this. I had more respect for her than that, but this
>> thread is eroding it.
>>
So be it, but you can't deny I have a proven accident record to substantiate my methods....have you?
Pat
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>>but you can't deny I have a proven accident record to substantiate my methods
I assume that you must be a good driver, because of that record. Doesn't mean you couldn't be safer.
Having an accident is one metric; likelihood of having an accident is another.
If out of 10 people who drive one-handed 9 will have an accident because of it, then logically 1 driver will drive all his life one-handed and have no accident.
That still doesn't make it safe or or even safer.
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Can you show me proof of any accident which has happened solely because the driver was driving on handed?
Can you show me proof a driver had only one hand on the wheel at the time of an accident?
Can you prove any accident would have been avoided by having two hands on the wheel?
NO.....it's never been a problem while changing gear, putting on the wipers or even turning on the lights in years gone by and has only become a 'problem' since the advent of mobile phones.
I firmly agree that talking on a hand held phone is dangerous, but certainly NOT because they have only one hand on the wheel.
Pat
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Don't worry about finding proof, doing research or considering reality; can you simply explain to me why driving with one hand is safer?
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When you've found me the proof Mark......I will explain to you, but maybe I won't because you know exactly what I mean and I think you actually agree with me.
But you just fancy an argument:)
I don't have anything to prove, I never claimed it was safer and that it works for me. GB confirmed it works for him and thousands of other lorry drivers too.
You have to realise that we get behind the wheel and drive for 4.5 hours at a stretch, we have 45 minutes break and then drive for another 4.5 hours and that is legal.
I defy anyone to keep two hands firmly on the steering wheel for 4.5hours at a time...and if they did I would certainly give them a very, very wide berth!
Pat
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>> and I think you actually agree with me.
No Pat, I do not. Not because I think that driving one-handed is particularly dangerous, but because a dogmatic approach to it is.
As I said, driving one-handed MUST be less safe than driving two-handed. Perhaps not very much in it, but still less.
>> You have to realise that we get behind the wheel and drive for 4.5 hours
>> at a stretch, we have 45 minutes break and then drive for another 4.5 hours
>> and that is legal.
Are you justifying one-handed driving or explaining why its too difficult for lorry drivers?
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>> I defy anyone to keep two hands firmly on the steering wheel for 4.5hours at
>> a time...and if they did I would certainly give them a very, very wide berth!
>>
Apart from necessary function like changing gear, or something quick like changing radio stations, I ask you, in the name of all that is holy, why? Why would it be such a problem?
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There are people who drive badly, people who drive all right most of the time, a handful of more or less flawless drivers (but 100% isn't possible) and these halo-wearing, drive-by-numbers, white-knuckled sanctimonious twits who make themselves sound utterly lethal.
I always give those carphounds a wide berth. You can usually tell them by their jerky driving and inability to keep a proper distance.
When something (like your driving for example) is already safe there's nothing practical to be done to make it safer. Safer than safe doesn't compute.
The roads aren't safe. They can always spring a nasty surprise. That's why these people who think it can all be reduced to a set of rules and formulae are dangerous. They are liable to react out of indignation rather than self-preservation and the wish for minimal hassle for all parties.
It isn't brain surgery or astrophysics you goddam jerks. Anyone can drive a car, and well too. Minicab drivers even.
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>> halo-wearing,
>> drive-by-numbers, white-knuckled sanctimonious twits who make themselves sound utterly lethal.
Sigh. Here he goes again.
>> I always give those carphounds a wide berth. You can usually tell them by their
>> jerky driving and inability to keep a proper distance.
Utter rubbish. Most erratic driving is caused by people's attention straying form the job in hand - fags, food, maps, CDs, arm leaning nonsense.
I do wish one of the resident coppers or ex coppers would come on here and let us have the benefit of their experience on the matter.
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If I'm approaching a bend, junction, a tight spot etc, I automatically want to put two hands on the wheel - why ............. because it gives me better control of the vehicle.
Ergo - two hands on the wheel gives better control than one hand on the wheel - this is quite apart from the 'use of mobile phone' debate where distraction/concentration comes into the equation as well.
I often wonder why nearly all of the hold-ups on the A14 involve HGVs - do all lorry drivers drive one-handed?
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I suspect that as much as the actual or potential reduced control, one-handed driving is also indicative of reduced attention.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 13 Aug 13 at 17:32
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one-handed driving is
>> also indicative of reduced attention.
>>
Which was my initial point, from which much of this thread has sprung. It can indeed be indicative of such, and so it is not an unwise thing for another driver who spots this behaviour to be a little more circumspect than usual. Why people feel I'm some kind of nervous boggle eyed white knuckled maniac because of this plain truth is a bit weird.
I don't often see cockpit footage from professional drivers showing one-handed control (Police, racing drivers etc). Apart from truckers, perhaps. Got to microwave that pastie, I suppose.
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>> I'm some kind of nervous boggle eyed white knuckled maniac
I don't think you're nervous, but I'm considering "maniac". I'm prepared to give some thought to boggle-eyed and white-knuckled as well.
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Well considering I was just agreeing with, and expanding upon, your point there, that seems a little odd. But hey ho.
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Sorry Al, perhaps I'm not as funny as I thought.
But either I mis-wrote or you misunderstood. I wasn't trying to be rude.
Again, no offense meant, sorry it came across that way..
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 13 Aug 13 at 17:46
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Fair dos, NoF. None taken.
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>> Sorry Al, perhaps I'm not as funny as I thought.
Acerbic, condescending, sarcastic, insulting even, but no - humour is not your forte.
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>> humour is not your forte.
Oh and your Gibraltar comment went so well!!
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At least he didn't think i was insulting him!
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>> I often wonder why nearly all of the hold-ups on the A14 involve HGVs -
>> do all lorry drivers drive one-handed?
Nah, on the A14 its because they are all elephant racing.
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>> If I'm approaching a bend, junction, a tight spot etc, I automatically want to put
>> two hands on the wheel
So, you drive one handed the rest of the time?
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"So, you drive one handed the rest of the time?
No
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have we just been lucky every day
>> for the past 30 years or so?
>>
Yes.
>> So be it, but you can't deny I have a proven accident record to substantiate
>> my methods....have you?
I have no idea if you're telling the truth. I have had 2 accidents which could be attributed to me. A wet foot slipping off a metal clutch pedal when I was 17, car leapt in to the road on full choke and collided with a passing car. Also aquaplaned on a greasy motorway junction roundabout in a very heavy downpour and rolled down an embankment - aged 22 or so. Nothing else in over 20 years since that. Fair to say I'm a bit circumspect in the rain after those two. And I always make sure there's rubber on my pedals.
In terms of this discussion, so what? It's not as if every accident is related to the number of hands on the wheel. However it's indisputable that some accidents could be prevented by using two at all practical times.
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>>I have no idea if you're telling the truth<<
Quite frankly Alanovic, I am disgusted with that remark.
I thought better of you.
Pat
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>> Quite frankly Alanovic, I am disgusted with that remark.
Really, you read his whole note, and previous arguments, and that's what you went with?
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>> and that's what you went with?<<
Yes, it questions my whole integrity, which in turn means there is really no point in me bothering replying to anything at all.
No-one has ever seen fit to do that before....it has never been doubted.
Pat
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>> I thought better of you.
And I of you. A professional driver encouraging slack attitudes on the road.
There was no need to take offence at my remark anyway, it wasn't a personal barb, just an indication that I'm having a chat over the internet with a stranger and have no way to verify their personal claims. So I'm sorry if you took that the wrong way.
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Fab, there have been loads of rows and arguments on here recently, and I haven't started any of them!
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So then, in summary......
People who keep two hands on the wheel are under-confident, white-knuckled carphounds.
Those who drive with one hand on the wheel are relaxed and superior.
So, presumably Italian lorry drivers who drive with no hands on the wheel are brilliant. They are quite capable of multi-tasking - mobile phoning, waving arms, laptop-computing and cooking up their pasta on the gaz stove in the cab.
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>> People who keep two hands on the wheel are under-confident, white-knuckled carphounds.
I drive past one on most mornings. She does 35mph on a dual carriageway, and she is a danger to herself and everyone around her. She grips the wheel and looks terrified. But I wouldn't go as far as to call her a carphound.
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"But I wouldn't go as far as to call her a carphound."
To be honest, I'm not 100% sure what a carphound is - it's an AC expression which I think means the same as a 'swivel-eyed loon' who drives a car.
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>> quite capable of multi-tasking - mobile phoning, waving arms, laptop-computing and cooking up their pasta on the gaz stove in the cab.
Does no one remember my praise poem to multitasking white van man, accused of texting at high speed?
How can he be texting at 90
(However prehensile his legs),
When he's smoking a doobie,
Tooting a line,
Feeling his girl up,
Mulling some wine
And frying his bacon and eggs?
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"Does no one remember my praise poem "
I love your poem,
It's groovy, mate,
They should make you Poet
Laureate.
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Oh no they shouldn't.
I can't write verse
Without the occasional
Involuntary curse.
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>> A professional driver encouraging slack attitudes on the road.
Just because they choose to drive one handed?
I bet you're a bundle of laughs to be with in the car.
Eer, Mildred, look at 'im over there, he's only got one hand on the wheel. Totally out of control. Look! Look! Look! And 'im over there too. Loook! However did he pass his test?
George, will you shut up for once and concentrate on your own driving instead of everyone elses.
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>> I have had 2 accidents which could be attributed to me. A wet foot slipping off a metal clutch pedal when I was 17
Bet it wouldn't have happened if you'd had both feet on the pedal instead of just the one ;)
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>> 2 accidents which could be attributed to me
All the others could be attributed to someone else eh?
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Lookout for the Vauxhall being driven with one hand and the driver totally oblivious to the trail of wreckage, cars run off the road, and cursing drivers left in its wake. :-)
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I'll confess now to being a two-hander. I was able to improve my driving skills in a very hard school. Instructors used to rap your knuckles with a ruler if you took a hand off the wheel at the wrong time. A hand would block the interior mirror and you'd be asked what was behind you. Try to change gear on a corner or other hazard and you'd find a hand already on the gear knob stopping you.
Roadcraft was the key to it all. I still drive to the ' system of car control ' specified therein. Most levels of tests, including high speed pursuit training, had to be done with a spoken commentary...and woe betide if you missed something the instructor had seen.
Both hands on meant evading action could be taken swiftly and cleanly. Drive one-handed or start doing all this fancy crossing of arms like a race car pilot and you'd probably be gelded with a rusty knife back at the driving school !
Ted
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I think I'd enjoy one of those proper police traffic courses. Don't doubt it would be positive too. No one's perfect, certainly not me anyway.
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You forgot 'double de clutching' Ted even in a car with perfectly good synchromesh.
Whilst Roadcraft is still the Bible things are not as rigid as they were. And yes the ruler seams to have been the weapon of choice.
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Finally, someone who knows what they're talking about. Thanks, Ted, for restoring my faith in professional drivers.
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>> Finally, someone who knows what they're talking about. Thanks, Ted, for restoring my faith in
>> professional drivers.
>>
Double-declutching, yes. I did it for years afterwards on my own cars. I think it was to do with the fact that both your feet would be occupied on the clutch and gas so you couldn't be braking at the same time.
HaHa....I initially typed that ' try to change gear at the wrong time and you'd find the instructor's hand on your knob ' !
Avoided a bit of ribbing there ....phew !
Ted
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>> All the others could be attributed to someone else eh?
>>
Well the other one could, yes. Twonk who reversed in to me at a t-junction.
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With the volume of traffic on the roads today,anyone who does not give 100% concentration to driving is a danger to themselves and others IMO . Generally you are driving with those most precious to you and do you really want to risk their lives ?
IMO that is exactly what you are doing by not concentrating on the job in hand......
ISTR a major motorway accident was caused by the driver momentarily distracted reaching for a packet of sweets....
....so I have to go along with the two hands on the wheel approach...... and I hate the twerps who use mobiles while driving....
......and I make every effort to ensure that when I drive my car that means as far as possible I keep my focus and concentrate 100% on what is happening all around me ......and that means not being distracted from the process of driving by anything .....
Even SWMBO has realised now after 40 years that if I am driving I do not respond to her small talk........
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>> Even SWMBO has realised now after 40 years that if I am driving I do
>> not respond to her small talk........
>>
As does mine, and more importantly, why.
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I don't concentrate 100% at all. I listen to music, sing, hum, moan to the radio presenters, chat to my wife, laugh with the kids.
It's all relative. Cruising on a quiet autobahn at 3am - 10% concentration. Driving to Tescos on a sunny day on a Wednesday afternoon - 50% concentration. Driving at 20mph past a hot bird in a mini-skirt, high heels and no bra - 0% concentration.
Only at certain times I concentrate 100%. Reversing a large car into a small space in a busy shopping mall with precious little space to maneouvre - that's concentrating 100%. My speech halters, stop listening to the wife, stop noticing what's happening inside the car and start calculating angles, curves, work out where there's space to open doors. And when I switch off the engine I'm suddenly aware of the wife, what she's still jabbering about and the kids bouncing around in the back.
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That is where we differ Dave..... Its always the one time that you least expect that gets you into trouble..... you do not see it coming because you are not concentrating.
Quiet autobahn at 3 am......case in point......
Potential problems are still there....the drunk driver, something comes the wrong way ( we have had several incidents like this on police response TV shows recently ) ... or even something as unexpected as happened locally when a distressed kid was killed when walking home along the motorway hard shoulder after an argument with his parents .......
IMO - 100 % concentration required at ALL times....
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"100 % concentration required at ALL times" ????
Don't buy a car with a radio. Don't speak or listen to your wife. Not a word. Don't think a single second about work, meetings, the Lamborghini on the forecourt, sex, the death of a close family - not between starting and shutting down the engine?
100%??? One Hundred Percent?
Yeah right Roboman!
But I'm a human (and a well hung one).
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Don't worry BBD, we take everything you say with a huge chunk of salt. :-)
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>> 100%??? One Hundred Percent?
>> Yeah right Roboman!
He's right you know helicopter. 100% isn't possible.
Anyone can be involved in some bad incident on the road. And if (God forbid) it should ever happen to you, there will be some here who will insist that your sloppy, distracted driving was the cause. Chances are of course they would be wrong, but that wouldn't stop them because they 'know the rules'.
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To be more exact, AC, 100% isn't possible for long.. I've just spent 40 minutes on the phone discussing complicated financial matters with three different foreign accents, one of them on an awful, fuzzy speakerphone. That demanded full concentration just to keep up, but now I feel I need a lie-down. I couldn't possibly sustain that level over a two-hour car journey and be safe.
In driving terms, compare how you feel after an easy half-hour drive home in good weather and light traffic with the effect of the same route in heavy rain or fog. That's concentration, and none of us can keep it up for long.
So that's why an experienced driver will know when it's essential to be fully switched on, and when to take a partial mental break with music, conversation or admiring the scenery. You have to be ready to switch back on, but a rigid policy of ten-to-two and eyes fixed on the middle distance is just going to wear you out.
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At last someone else who knows what they're talking about ... WDB on message...
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I've been thinking about Helicopter as I was washing my car. Perhaps his concentration perceptions are at a different level - after all, if he's piloting a whirlybird, there aren't many opportunities to start daydreaming. He really does have to concentrate, from two centimetres off the concrete, right to last few seconds of the journey. I could clip a kerb and start tutting, but clipping a rotor with a tree and people start dying.
Very few dedicated career-men can just switch it off at the end of the day. Maybe at the end of his day, he sits in a car with his brain still engaged in three-dimensional-planes and worrying how precious and delicate the cargo is...
So without the exception Helicopter, the rest of concentrate a lot less!
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>> So without the exception Helicopter, the rest of concentrate a lot less!
Yes, helicopter and perhaps other pilots - Meldrew springs to mind - are indeed trained to concentrate more efficiently than most of us.
But the same behaviour standards apply even if the level is theoretically higher: there will be moments or even long periods of relative relaxation.
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"Yes, helicopter and perhaps other pilots - Meldrew springs to mind - are indeed trained to concentrate more efficiently than most of us."
What about Old Navy? Do you think he concentrates 100% for the whole 6-month tour of duty?
I wonder if he has flash-backs when he drives through deep puddles.
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>> What about Old Navy? >>
>> I wonder if he has flash-backs when he drives through deep puddles.
>>
Deep puddles, sundodgers are allergic to water! :-)
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>> I've been thinking about Helicopter as I was washing my car. Perhaps his concentration perceptions are at a different level - after all, if he's piloting a whirlybird, there aren't many opportunities to start daydreaming. He really does have to concentrate, from two centimetres off
the concrete, right to last few seconds of the journey. I could clip a kerb and start tutting, but clipping a rotor with a tree and people start dying.
Nail on head!
I believe the main factors in keeping anywhere near 100% concentration are training, and a certain type of mind set...
How many people can actually fly a helicopter for hours? and with the accuracy needed for instance by HEMS pilots?
Not many I wager.
Even so, I am sure that landing in a street takes more concentration than flying from base to that street, and so the flight will not take 100% concentration - maybe 85-90%?
If one concentrates @ 100%, 100% of the time, where is the reserve when needed?
How does the brain cope with that amount of real stress without cracking up?
Answer - I don't think it could....
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There are many more hazards to concentrate on when driving a car, than flying. Sure the effects of cocking it up can be worse, but pilots prioritise, sometimes with someone to share the workload, and systems and warnings designed with much a more human centric approach.
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It can't have been helicopter who flew over the house here twice, slowly, at about 200 feet at 2.30 or so the other morning, can it?
It was quite a big helicopter, police perhaps, and made quite an offensive clamour, although I was still up anyway. There was nothing exciting going on here.
Perhaps they were poaching deer with those electric stun-zappers, like the Ugandan army with elephants and Kalashnikovs back in Idi Amin's day.
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>and I hate the twerps who use mobiles while driving....
It's a piece of cake.
Some folks can do it in their sleep.
www.wheels24.co.za/News/5-hrs-300km-asleep-at-wheel-20130814
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Office move from 'Legal London' to Westminster means my commute now takes in Trafalgar Square - Strand to Admiralty Arch, short stretch of the Mall and then Horseguards Road. Nice ride actually with views of St James Park and various young female tourists.
Just rounding square this morning when Fiesta alongside on my left drifts out of Whitehall bound lane and into mine alongside me. Young woman driving is holding wheel with left hand and little finger of her right - rest of right holding I-Phone on which she's half concentrating.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 23 Aug 13 at 15:36
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I expect this silly trucker didn't have both hands on the wheel:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-23876320
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Neil Lennon (Celtic Manager) found NOT GUILTYof driving with mobile
tinyurl.com/o5jb3gq
Points of Law
Unlike E&W you need corroboration in Scotland ( 2 x witness, 1 x policeman is not enough)
Only 1 x police had noted the car reg.
PLUS
The Prosecution had no proof that the phone was in use. The Prosecution had not got phone records from the mobile operator.
It could be said:
Sloppy police work and sloppy prosecutor
Case thrown out. Mr Lennon was free to go.
What is the opinion of the car4play readers?
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Wish I could afford his solicitor..or legal team.
Then again, they would not be necessary.
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Talking on your mobile whilst driving. - -
