Das Auto : the Germans, Their cars and Us.
On BBC2 9pm after Top Gear.
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03866cj/clips
Might be worth watching.
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I will watch, if only to see if it agrees with my experience. I worked for a UK manufacturer that had a German sales office. Nothing wrong with the quality of the people but I found it amazing how strict they were about closing time. I was working with people all over the world and my hours had to try to fit in with when people were available (pre Internet. In any case speaking always builds a better relationship.) Try 'phoning the German office at ONE SECOND afer five and you got the answer machine..
I once very well remember being in the office late and taking a call from a customer with a problem, which I was able to solve, and being thanked with the words "Thank you for being there so late".
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You might not recognise the place now Aretas. My hours are 8 to 16:45, in reality I start 8 to 8:15 very rarely am I out before 18:00.
They are very strict about 10 hour working day.
I don't suppose we will learn anything new. German car companies included the unions in the management and direction I don't believe this was the case in the UK but I was not there so do not know if this is true or not.
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One of the reasons why the phones cut off so promptly was the German Worker's Council. I was working there in the mid 80s.
This was a time when representatives of the Worker's Council would drive around after hours, on a Saturday Afternoon and on a Sunday hoping to catch someone out.
At that time I wasn't in automotive, although I did work for both BMW and Mercedes later on. In my opinion any idea that there was a partnership is completely revisionist and apocryphal.
It would have been as adversarial as the UK were it not for the fact that the WC's power was absolute and so disagreement from owners or Management was as rare as it was pointless.
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Thanks, gmac. The manager worked longer than 9 to 5, but no-one accessible to help customers. I my industry (broadcasting) customers could be working at any time of day.
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I'm not a manager, I'm a lower than a snakes undercarriage contractor who talks to the customers and fixes their problems.
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My employer has a German manufacturing plant. The guys I deal with are a mixed bunch, some work the hours needed, but some of the "more mature" members of the team are still strict on their finish times. They also accrue their overtime and take it as additional holidays
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I was a european service manager. In Germany everything was required confirmed by email copied to 5 million people up the management chain, and nothing happened outside their version of 9-5. But the French! oo la la. Bureaucratic nightmare, we ended up charging them more as a penalty for the overhead.
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>> In Germany everything was required confirmed by email copied
>> to 5 million people
5 million? Incredible.
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So, any surprises ?
Swindon, Burnaston & Sunderland make flat pack Japanese IKEA cars. MINI, Rolls and Bentley are German owned.
They all employ substantial numbers of UK workers but ultimately the profits go abroad.
The daft thing for me was the Germans with the Golf were 7 or 8 years behind the Italian FIAT 127 and Audi were Lancia in the early 70's with their rotary engines and rot.
Just goes to show attention to detail is everything.
Last edited by: gmac on Sun 4 Aug 13 at 22:20
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It was NSU had rotary engines, not Audi.
alfalfa
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Very good programme - nothing new - the Germans made better quality cars than we could ever hope to. Blame crap management and cranky unions who imagined that someone actually cared about the crap they churned out. Truth is we didn't and bought cars by the boat load from abroad.
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>>It was NSU had rotary engines, not Audi.
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>>alfalfa
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Semantics:
" In 1969, the company was taken over by Volkswagen Group, who merged NSU with Auto Union. The new, merged, company was called Audi NSU Auto-Union A.G and represented the effective end of both the NSU and DKW marques with all future production to bear the Audi badge (although retaining the four interlocking circles of Auto Union)."
Last edited by: gmac on Sun 4 Aug 13 at 22:36
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Can't quite see that it's semantics. NSU was using a rotary engine before it became part of VAG and Audi has never used one. Definitely agree with your comments about the Fiat 127. The 127 and 128 had many Golf features before the Golf.
alfalfa
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Audi was a bit of a dog in the 70's but I think we both agree, attention to detail turned the brand around.
FIAT in the 60's and 70's were years ahead OHC engines when Ford were still fighting with their Constant Vibration and Harshness engines in the 80's.
Cruise control on a 1290cc 128 in 1975. Did the Golf have that ? It was a throttle lock next to the choke in the "Coke bottle" Coupe but still very impressive for the time.
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I have liked my two Golfs but they only ever do low mileages and J.D. Powers still rate Japanese cars as being more reliable etc. And so who's right?
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I can vouch for the 127, It was my first car.
Went like the clappers for a little 1049cc engine.
Used to beat mini 1275cc (below 60mph)
The program led the viewer to believe the golf was the first to market the hatchback car when in reality (as previous posters had said) the Fiat 127 was there first.
Generally speaking, I do wonder if the second to market a product ends up better off that the original maker of a product.
I.E. second time around done better
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>> The program led the viewer to believe the golf was the first to market the
>> hatchback car when in reality (as previous posters had said) the Fiat 127 was there
>> first.
I always think of the Renault 16 as the first hatchback. 1965. The 127 wasn't available until 1971, and it was a saloon originally.
Can anyone think of an earlier hatchback than the Renault 16?
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>> Can anyone think of an earlier hatchback than the Renault 16?
>>
Citroen Traction Avant?
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>> >> Can anyone think of an earlier hatchback than the Renault 16?
>> >>
>>
>> Citroen Traction Avant?
>>
Definitely a contender, 1938 11 Commerciale
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1938_Citroen_hatchback.JPG
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Yes, hawkeye, and Boxsterboy earlier. Good call. Strange how the format seems to have remained largely uncopied until the 1970s.
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The Citroen Light Fifteen wasn't a hatchback. It had a quite small boot with the spare wheel on the lid which opened from the top. Later, Slough-assembled cars started to be made with a big ugly box bootlid that opened from the bottom, and the later French-made ones had it too.
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One of my sister's beaus had a Slough built Light 15 - strange car, taught me a bit about gaskets though !
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The Renault 16 was a great car - we had the 16TS for a while - quick and so comfortable.
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>> J.D. Powers still rate Japanese cars as being more reliable etc.
It's all down to Asian brains being different from ours.
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Had a throttle lock on my 1934 Rover;also Lucas Startix(auto start)-just turned the ignition on and engine started-also re-started engine if you stalled.
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Wasn't the A40 and the Maxi a Hatchback....The Maxi certainly was a five door.
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>> Wasn't the A40 and the Maxi a Hatchback....The Maxi certainly was a five door.
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A40, hinged at top and bottom. Not a true hatchback really.
commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Austin_A40_MkII_Countryman_tail.jpg
Maxi - 1969. Later than the Renault 16, but a lot earlier than the Golf.
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I didn't hear any mention in the programme of the use of "Gastarbeiter" or guest workers from southern European countries (Italy, Greece and Turkey) which helped to power the economic miracle. These workers were paid little, feared for their jobs and worked hard. Can you imagine what the reaction would have been in the UK if the same policy was used here?
Also, to say that Germans go to the "Car Cathederals" to buy their cars is just rubbish - they go to their local dealer just as in the UK.
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>> I didn't hear any mention in the programme of the use of "Gastarbeiter" or guest
>> workers from southern European countries (Italy, Greece and Turkey) which helped to power the economic
>> miracle. These workers were paid little, feared for their jobs and worked hard. Can you
>> imagine what the reaction would have been in the UK if the same policy was
>> used here?
>>
Not an official policy, but we did have a large wave of immigration. Not quite the same thing I know, but the cheap foreign labour.
>> Also, to say that Germans go to the "Car Cathederals" to buy their cars is
>> just rubbish - they go to their local dealer just as in the UK.
>>
Not quite how I heard it, more than the car cathederals are there. I don't think it gave the impression that every car dealership in Germany looked them in the show !
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The cathedrals certainly exist, I used them in Germany, as I had to so that I could access the Diplomatic Sales system. Audi have one in Brentford tinyurl.com/lx8a9z6
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Germans are good at making cars, but they're not good at everything ~ fighting wars for example.
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They're good at installing themselves as the monarchy here though.
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Germans were very good at fighting wars as the evidence of the last two conflicts show - they were only beaten in both by idiocyn and arrogance at the very top and the industrila might of the USA being wielded at them - they took a gamble in both conflicts that the Americans wouldn't get involved and were wrong on both occasions.
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>> Germans were very good at fighting wars as the evidence of the last two conflicts
>> show -
Yes excellent at fighting wars, pish poor at winning them, the Germans have never won a war since the war of unification, forming what we know as Modern Germany.
Only one European nation is worse, the French who have other people winning their wars for them.
Edit - Sorry make that two. Forgot the Italians.
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The French fought very well in WW1 - but would have lost early on if it hadn't have been for UK forces (Battle of the Marne in particular - probably the most important battle of the twentieth Cent.) - They were a shambles in the second war - complete shambles, which made De Gaulle's arrogance both wartime and post war even harder to swallow. He caused untold damage on three continents.
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The Top Gear before this had a very interesting feature about all the vehicles still made in the UK. Oh and btw Sunderland does a lot lot more than make flat pack cars, they have extension research facilities and all the bodies, engines etc are made on site.
The UK now probably makes cars better than ever, I think our problem has always been management and now most our car companies are owned by Mr Foreign that problem is solved.
I just felt the programme had a bit of a bias towards Germany and seemed to at times mock the British car industry when it wasn't deserved. We make just as good cars as the Germans now even if those firms are German owned! That said everything the programme said about British Leyland was deserved!
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>>The UK now probably makes cars better than ever, I think our problem has always been management and now most our car companies are owned by Mr Foreign that problem is solved
>>I just felt the programme had a bit of a bias towards Germany and seemed to at times mock the British car industry when it wasn't deserved. We make just as good cars as the Germans now even if those firms are German owned! That said everything the programme said about British Leyland was deserved!
I'm with this^ geezer.
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No one has mentioned the Government not allowing Ford to buy the remains of Austin-Rover and then GIVING it to BAE(with a hefty sweetener out of our taxes)who then sold it to BMW.
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Because they had sorted out the big arms sale to the Saudis, they wanted some back from BAE so they got them to take Rover off their hands. Plus being British made it a bit palatable rather than a US company.
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Actually made money during BAE's tenure.
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I never said they didn't make money for them, just that the Gov wanted rid of rover.
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Production also boosted by the fact that management at all levels of all BAe companies, including Rover and Royal Ordnance had one as a company car, less than £100 a month for the 200 series, in my case
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>> less than £100 a month for the 200 serie
Bloomin' 'eck, I'd have wanted a lot more than that to take one of those.
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Way cheaper than buying and running one's own and if one wasn't a petrolhead. Mine replaced a Ford Orion auto FFS!
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>> Royal Ordnance had one as a company car,
Went like a bomb?
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>> Germans are good at making cars, but they're not good at everything ~ fighting wars
>> for example.
>>
They would have won WW2 if they had not invaded Russia. German munitions and artillery were far superior to Allied ones:see the 88mm AA/tank gun, and the MG42 machine gun.
And the German Panzer and Tiger tanks outgunned and outarmoured US&UK tanks. (They were , however, unreliable and very complex and far too costly to make)
German troops in WW2 were very well trained.
Their bombers were rubbish.
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>> Their bombers were rubbish.
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>>
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I wouldn't say rubbish, good for the role they were designed. When used out of that role, unsurprisingly they weren't brillant.
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Stuka was numerous and effective, in its role
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Only with high level fighter support, it was a turkey shoot without it.
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Agreed - thread drift terminated!
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I am trying to think of some rubbish west German cars but I am finding it hard however I would say a lot of VW designs from the 1960s were very out dated compared to some of the advanced stuff the Brits were doing, e.g the Austin 1100.
Does anybody know what the price difference was compared to say a VW Golf and an Allegro in 1977?
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The NSU Ro80 was greatly admired, mainly by those who didn't own one, but had serious problems with engine and gearbox. VW clung to rear engine for too long with the 411/412 cars and the VW K70 was not a sales success. NSU had the rear engined Prinz and TT and Auto-Union, which morphed in to Audi used two stroke engines. I don't recall any of these being mentioned in the programme.
What the Germans did have was clean functional design and a relatively small model range which would have made life easier for servicing and stock control. BL had too many models, too many different engines and gearboxes and too many badge engineered marques competing against each other. Resources were stretched and development underfunded.
alfalfa
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>> What the Germans did have was clean functional design and a relatively small model range
>> . BL had too many
>> models, too many different engines and gearboxes and too many badge engineered marques competing against
>> each other.
>>
Gosh, how times change!
German manufacturers now fill niches we never knew existed, whilst VAG far surpass BLs worst efforts at badge-engineering!
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>> >> What the Germans did have was clean functional design and a relatively small model
>> range
>> >> . BL had too many
>> >> models, too many different engines and gearboxes and too many badge engineered marques competing
>> against
>> >> each other.
Lack of range nearly killed VW when all they had was the Beetle, no-one wanted the type 3 or type 4 models on offer.
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The underlying reason is this:
In UK, it is management versus employees (unions)
In Germany, it is like a team working together. Employees are involved in strategic decisions.
Not sure if that is indeed the reality.
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>> In UK, it is management versus employees (unions)
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>> In Germany, it is like a team working together. Employees are involved in strategic decisions.
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>> Not sure if that is indeed the reality.
>>
Indeed, some of the earlier comments from members who have spent far more time than I have working in Germany, seem to point to it being non confrontational only to the extent that the workers are more in control, and maybe they are more sensible than some of the BMC workforce of the 70s for example.
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>>I am trying to think of some rubbish west German cars
BMW Isetta (although could be argued it was Italian). Heinkel Kabine, Messerschmitt KR200 (although I really wanted one in my teens).
The only reason they were rubbish was because of their crash survivability. I can think of many others just as bad, but not German.
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I had a BMW 2000 for a few weeks in the early 80's, it was absolute carp and I decided it certainly was not for me.
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>> I had a BMW 2000 for a few weeks in the early 80's, it was
>> absolute carp and I decided it certainly was not for me.
I had temporary care of a BMW 2002 Ti around the same time. I would sell my organs for one of those.
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Ah, 2002 me ole son - now ya talking man and machine in purrfect harmony!
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>> it was absolute carp and I decided it certainly was not for me.
Perhaps yours was a rough or abused example Perro? 2000 was quite a nice and well-made car, comfortable, refined and decently rapid, although less sporting than later BMW generations. I speak as a passenger though, never got my hands on one.
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>>Perhaps yours was a rough or abused example Perro
It was well-kept, garaged and cared for (orf East Lane S.E.17) I fitted a Weber conversion to it and the owner
(The Charlesworths) wanted to sell it so I ran it about for a time but I never liked it one iota, mind you, I was running V8 P6's at the time.
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>> I was running V8 P6's at the
>> time.
Now you're talking. Full of stylish touches to feast your eyes on, coupled with that V8 and De dion rear suspension.
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How German cars beat British motors - and kept going!
www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23406467
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A bit of a Deutschland uber alles program on the telly good to watch do.
I had a few VW Beetles the 1200cc models reliable but no room in the boot.Shopping went on the backseat.
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Howya doin Dutchie, everything 'all right' ?
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Not bad Dog,needed a operation all is well now.Good to be back amongst the foreigners..:)
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>>Not bad Dog,needed a operation all is well now.Good to be back amongst the foreigners..:)
What, another operation Dutchie! - glad to hear all is well now.
If we got rid of all the foreigners in this country, it wouldn't be a bad place ;)
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Ere oo you geezers callin forriners leave it aht knahImean faaaaahk...
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You like to go back to the past Dog.>:) Verleden tijd komt niet meer terug.
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>>Verleden tijd komt niet meer terug
I know, sadly.
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If it was a choice between the Mini and the Beetle, it would be Beetle for me no contest, even if the heater didn't work.
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Avez vous ever driven an air-cooled Beetle corax, I've tuned and road-tested umpteen in days gorn by and I found the position of the 3 pedals quite awkward compared to a 'normal' jamjar.
I well remember tuning a bubblegum pink one for a young woman in Hastings once upon a time, I'll also never forget the smile it brought to my face when I road-tested it after getting the critter to run like a Porsche ... almost.
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>> Avez vous ever driven an air-cooled Beetle corax,
Yes, handling not great, but lots of character. I drove another mates Mini 1000 with all round drum brakes and they were atrocious, I couldn't believe how much he used to thrash that thing after finding out about the brakes. Maybe I should have tried a 1275 GT, I liked the look of those.
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>>Yes, handling not great, but lots of character
Lots of noise too :)
I never liked any Mini either really tbh, sure the Cooper could shift, and be quite fun, for a while, but give me a Subaru any day - especially for driving through the floods in Cornwall this morning :(
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I did like the Mini, first time I got a lift in one at sixteen working for a small office in R/Dam.We used to send machinery from Crofts in Bradford through Europe.
I bought one second hand, with a new subframe fitted for one of our lads.He never used it sold it on a few months later.
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Both the Mini and the Beetle have character, but I prefer the handling of the Mini overall.
Got round to watching the programme last night and whilst there was a lot of filler, as is the way with such programmes, the archive footage was great.
I also enjoyed Rick Stein's programme last night on his family reunions in Germany interspersed with cooking/eating local dishes. German food can be delicious and is much under-rated. Stein's family were rich and famous farmers turned brewers, which I didn't know.
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Das Auto - Dog
