Motoring Discussion > Tree fell on car - insurance	Miscellaneous
Thread Author: smokie	Replies: 45

New Mon 29 Jul 13 22:25   Tree fell on car - insurance - smokie

Daughter's friends Qashqai (sp?) damaged today by a falling tree in a storm - roof a bit bent and paintwork etc. She called insurance, who said Act of God, we aren't coughing up. Fully comp insurance I believe. Seems a bit harsh. My daughter had a wing damaged by a falling roof tile which hit her when she was on the move in a storm a few years back. She was only 3rd party, they said she'd have to claim from the homeowner, and probably prove negligence/poor maintenance. Tough cookies, these insurance folk. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 29 Jul 13 22:33   Tree fell on car - insurance - Fullchat

That depends on what sort of 'health' the tree was in I would have thought. Owner of tree has a duty of care to ensure that the tree is in good health and if not take steps to ensure that in the not unlikely event of a storm it or bits of it do not endanger the public. That's what I would have thought anyway. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 29 Jul 13 22:42   Tree fell on car - insurance - movilogo

If comprehensive then they must cover all damage. Which insurer? Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 29 Jul 13 22:48   Tree fell on car - insurance - R.P.

There is no God according to some people , even the CofE acknowledge that possibility ! Complaint to them...take it onto the Insurance Ombudsman. Last edited by: R.P. on Mon 29 Jul 13 at 22:48 Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 29 Jul 13 22:50   Tree fell on car - insurance - Zero

In contract law, "an act of god" does not exist as god is not a legal entity. I beleive policies have to specifically exclude exclusions. I am sure mark have all the gen on this. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 29 Jul 13 23:14   Tree fell on car - insurance - R.P.

There's no mention if God in my Policy Document. They need a talking to ! Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 29 Jul 13 23:26   Tree fell on car - insurance - SteelSpark

>> In contract law, "an act of god" does not exist as god is not a >> legal entity. I beleive policies have to specifically exclude exclusions. >> >> I am sure mark have all the gen on this. It does exist, although not to include god as a party to the contract, but as a type of force majeure. Here is a case (tort rather than contract): tinyurl.com/owyz7d9 But it also applies to contract law: From tinyurl.com/pz4acfk: "So an act of God is a particular type of force majeure. If I can't carry out the contract because, let's say, we're contracting to sell a car and the car is struck by lightening than that's an act of God. There's nothing that either party could have done to prevent that. So an act of God is a type of force majeure. Force majeure is a more general term." Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 29 Jul 13 23:35   Tree fell on car - insurance - Zero

God does not exist in my car policy, it has exclusions. Exclusions - what's not covered by Aviva Car insurance Below are some examples of what is excluded under the policy. For full details, please consult the policy wording. We will not pay for: Any accident, injury, loss or damage while any vehicle that is insured under this policy is being: Used otherwise than for the purposes described under the "Description of use" section of your Certificate of Motor Insurance, or Driven by or is in the charge of any person for the purposes of being driven who: Is not described under the section of your certificate of motor insurance headed "Permitted drivers", or Does not have a valid and current licence to drive your vehicle, or Is not complying with the terms and conditions of the licence, or Does not have the appropriate licence for the type of vehicle. Any liability a person insured has agreed to take on except to the extent the person insured would have had that liability if that agreement did not exist. Loss or destruction of, or damage to, any property or associated loss or expense, or any other loss, or Any legal liability, that is directly or indirectly caused by, contributed to by or arising from: Ionising radiation or contamination by radioactivity from any irradiated nuclear fuel or from any nuclear waste from the combustion of nuclear fuel. The radioactive, toxic, explosive or other hazardous properties of any explosive nuclear assembly or nuclear component thereof. Any consequence whatsoever which is the direct or indirect result of any of the following, or anything connected with any of the following, whether or not such consequence has been contributed to by any other cause or event: War, invasion, act of foreign enemy, hostilities or a warlike operation or operations (whether war be declared or not), civil war, rebellion, revolution, insurrection, civil commotion assuming the proportions of or amounting to an uprising, military or usurped power, Any action taken in controlling, preventing, suppressing or in any way relating to Above, except to the extent that it is necessary to meet the requirements of the Road Traffic Acts. Any accident, injury, loss or damage if your vehicle is registered outside the territorial limits. Any consequence whatsoever which is the direct or indirect result of any of the following, or anything connected with any of the following, whether or not such consequence has been contributed to by any other cause or event, except to the extent that we are obliged by the Road Traffic Acts to provide insurance: Terrorism Terrorism is defined as any act or acts including, but not limited to: The use or threat of force and/or violence Harm or damage to life or to property (or the threat of such harm or damage) including, but not limited to, harm or damage by nuclear and/or chemical and/or biological and/or radiological means caused or occasioned by any person(s) or group(s) of persons in whole or in part for political, religious, ideological or similar purposes, or is claimed to be caused or occasioned in whole or in part for such purposes Any action taken in controlling, preventing, suppressing or in any way relating to (a) above. In respect of 6 (a) and (b), where we are obliged by the Road Traffic Acts to provide insurance the maximum amount we will pay for damage to property as a result of any accident or accidents caused by a vehicle or vehicles driven or used by you or any other person, for which cover is provided under this section, will be: £5,000,000* in respect of all claims resulting directly or indirectly from one originating cause; or Such greater sum as may in the circumstances be required to meet the minimum insurance requirements of the Road Traffic Acts. *Note you need to check in every case whether the £5million limit is suitable for all vehicles which will be covered under the policy. If there is a possibility of a lower limit applying to some policies then see the wording under "standard commercial" We will not withdraw this cover: While your vehicle is in the custody or control of: A member of the motor trade for the purposes of maintenance or repair, or An employee of a hotel or restaurant or vehicle parking service for the purpose of parking your vehicle. If the injury, loss or damage was caused as a result of the theft of your vehicle. By reason of the person driving not having a driving licence, if the principal policyholder and/or vehicle policyholder had no knowledge of such deficiency. Last edited by: Zero on Mon 29 Jul 13 at 23:35 Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 30 Jul 13 10:36   Tree fell on car - insurance - SteelSpark

>> God does not exist in my car policy, it has exclusions. Seems right to me. I think that with car insurance you are generally covered for something that would be legally classified as an act of God, unless they explicitly say you aren't. I think insurance companies often try to exclude events which could cause very widespread loss, such as earthquakes, rather than falling trees. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 30 Jul 13 11:12   Tree fell on car - insurance - Zero

It always amuses me that they try and exclude nuclear war. Do they really think I will be trying to find their letter box in the smoking radioactive wastelands of London? Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 30 Jul 13 11:54   Tree fell on car - insurance - DP

>> It always amuses me that they try and exclude nuclear war. Do they really think >> I will be trying to find their letter box in the smoking radioactive wastelands of >> London? If you are capable of doing so, it is your duty. You paid for the policy. It's a matter of principle :-) Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 29 Jul 13 23:40   Tree fell on car - insurance - Manatee

>> From tinyurl.com/pz4acfk: >> >> "So an act of God is a particular type of force majeure. If I can't >> carry out the contract because, let's say, we're contracting to sell a car and the >> car is struck by lightening than that's an act of God. There's nothing that either >> party could have done to prevent that. So an act of God is a type >> of force majeure. Force majeure is a more general term." I would have said lightening might be an act of thieves. Not a very authoritative site that confuses it with lightning. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 29 Jul 13 23:18   Tree fell on car - insurance - smokie

I don't have many details, and possibly unlikely to hear much more soon but will update when more comes through... Last edited by: smokie on Mon 29 Jul 13 at 23:19 Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 30 Jul 13 07:17   Tree fell on car - insurance - Manatee

The force majeure reference BTW is a red herring. Force majeure is something that prevents a party from meeting what would otherwise be its contractual obligations. Nothing in this case is preventing the insurer from doing that except its own decision. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 30 Jul 13 00:11   Tree fell on car - insurance - CGNorwich

Of course comprehensive cover includes damage caused by a falling tree or a falling anything come to that. Just plain wrong. Are you sure she doesn't actually have TP only cover like your daughter? No such thing as an "Act of God" exclusion clause. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 30 Jul 13 07:02   Tree fell on car - insurance - Mike Hannon

I'll be interested to discover whether Aviva and other French companies exclude 'civil commotion' over here. It's a fact of life. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 30 Jul 13 08:25   Tree fell on car - insurance - Cliff Pope

>> >> No such thing as an "Act of God" exclusion clause. >> Not according to the British Insurers' Brokers Association (www.biba.org.uk/JargonBuster.aspx ) "Act of God - Natural causes directly and exclusively without human intervention and that could not have been prevented by any amount of foresight and pains and care reasonably to have been expected". Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 30 Jul 13 at 10:28 Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 30 Jul 13 08:56   Tree fell on car - insurance - CGNorwich

To clarify: The is no "Act of God" exclusion clause in any UK Insurance policy motor or otherwise. If you can find me one £10 to charity. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 30 Jul 13 11:27   Tree fell on car - insurance - Cliff Pope

>> To clarify: >> >> The is no "Act of God" exclusion clause in any UK Insurance policy motor or >> otherwise. >> >> If you can find me one £10 to charity. >> www.insurance4carhire.com/news/acts-of-god.aspx "Your insurance4carhire.com policy does cover damage to the windows, roof, undercarriage and tyres. If any of these parts of the car are damaged by an "Act of God", your policy will cover the cost of the repair (up to £4000 per claim, £5000 during any one period of insurance)." ie Acts of God costing in excess of £4,000 are excluded. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 30 Jul 13 19:06   Tree fell on car - insurance - CGNorwich

If you look at the specimen policy wording you will see that the policy does not exclude "acts of god' nor does it specifically cover them. It cover cost of repair up to £4,000 and £5,000 any one policy period whatever the cause. No UK Insurance policy excludes "acts of god" Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 31 Jul 13 08:18   Tree fell on car - insurance - Cliff Pope

>> If you look at the specimen policy wording you will see that the policy does >> not exclude "acts of god' nor does it specifically cover them. It cover cost of >> repair up to £4,000 and £5,000 any one policy period whatever the cause. >> It seems pretty clear to me - what does this bit of English mean: "Your insurance4carhire.com policy does cover damage to the windows, roof, undercarriage and tyres. If any of these parts of the car are damaged by an "Act of God", your policy will cover the cost of the repair (up to £4000 per claim, £5000 during any one period of insurance)." if not "You are covered for Acts of God up to £4,000, but not Acts of God above that amount" ? Are you trying to wriggle out of paying my £10 ? :) Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 31 Jul 13 08:39   Tree fell on car - insurance - CGNorwich

You need to look at the actual policy wording (see their website rather than the info you are quoting. If you look at the policy itself there is no reference to "Act of God' What the insurance company are saying is that under the original hire agreement the car hire company may exclude "Acts of God" as well as other causes for which you will be liable for repair costs. Under their insurance policy they will cover the cost of any repairs for which you become liable under the hire contract for up to £4,000. £4,000 is the limit of liability for any payment under the policy for repair costs. It is not a sub-limit for damage caused by Acts of God which as I have already said have are not mentioned in the Insurance policy. I hope that's clear. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 31 Jul 13 09:28   Tree fell on car - insurance - Cliff Pope

>> >> I hope that's clear. >> No. They have published a summary of their policy and it contains the words "Act of God". The contention was that acts of God do not exist in insurance terms. Why do they use the expression then? Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 30 Jul 13 07:23   Tree fell on car - insurance - L'escargot

>> Fully comp insurance I believe. Which insurance company? Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 30 Jul 13 09:39   Tree fell on car - insurance - L'escargot

I just rang my insurers (Co-op) and they said that because there would be no party from which they could recover the cost of the claim, then it would be classed as a fault claim, i.e. it would have been my fault. The person I was speaking to had had to consult someone else to get that piece of information and couldn't expand on it without further consultation. I gave up. I just hope I never have a tree fall on my car and I need to test out my insurance! Last edited by: L'escargot on Tue 30 Jul 13 at 09:39 Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 30 Jul 13 09:42   Tree fell on car - insurance - Cliff Pope

There is a moral of course, based on "tree", "storm", "car", "parking". Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 30 Jul 13 09:44   Tree fell on car - insurance - R.P.

That sounds logical L'es - they would still have to pay out on a comprehensive policy. Last edited by: R.P. on Tue 30 Jul 13 at 09:44 Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 30 Jul 13 10:07   Tree fell on car - insurance - L'escargot

>> I just rang my insurers (Co-op) and they said that because there would be no >> party from which they could recover the cost of the claim, then it would be >> classed as a fault claim, i.e. it would have been my fault. This is what Aviva say about an "at fault" claim. www.aviva.co.uk/car/frequently-asked-questions.html Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 30 Jul 13 13:02   Tree fell on car - insurance - L'escargot

Act of God ............. legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/act+of+God Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 30 Jul 13 13:03   Tree fell on car - insurance - L'escargot

Act of Dog ........... www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dog%20act Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 30 Jul 13 13:13   Tree fell on car - insurance - Dog

Oh là la ! Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 30 Jul 13 13:30   Tree fell on car - insurance - No FM2R

I think two different things are getting confused here; For you to be able to claim from someone else, or to recover any losses from a Third Party, then there must be some type of fault or negligence. e.g. A storm blows a chimney off a house which lands on and destroys your car. Your claim is turned down by the insurers of the house. The chimney was in good condition, regularly maintained and there was no weakness that could have been found. Thus, the storm was solely responsible, there was no human fault/negligence and no reasonable human intervention could have prevented it. One can see why this is called an act of God, but that simply means no human negligence or legal responsibility. However, your ability to claim on your own insurance is a contractual matter between you and your insurer. So things can be excluded or included by that contract, subject to the restrictions and/or requirements of the law. (e.g. Road Traffic Act(s) and Contract Law). Thus if you have Accidental Damage / Comprehensive cover on your vehicle you should be paid for damage to that vehicle howsoever caused unless that cause was specifically or generally excluded (like you did it yourself or war). I would guess that the original conversation that Smokie's daughter's friend had was around the fact that she could not claim on anyone else's policy and that she would have to claim on her own. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 30 Jul 13 14:14   Tree fell on car - insurance - Bill Payer

>> I would guess that the original conversation that Smokie's daughter's friend had was around the >> fact that she could not claim on anyone else's policy and that she would have >> to claim on her own. >> Exactly what I thought. And it will go down as an at fault claim. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 30 Jul 13 19:19   Tree fell on car - insurance - Fursty Ferret

>> I just rang my insurers (Co-op) and they said that because there would be no >> party from which they could recover the cost of the claim, then it would be >> classed as a fault claim, i.e. it would have been my fault. >> >> I just hope I >> never have a tree fall on my car and I need to test out my >> insurance! >> I reckon simply enquiring about it has probably flagged you up as risky on their computer system. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 30 Jul 13 17:41   Tree fell on car - insurance - Haywain

Apparently, my house insurance covers third party claims e.g. a tile coming down and clouting the postman. If a tree falls down and causes damage, then the owner of that tree is liable; the landowner should carry third party insurance or risk being sued. All trees are owned by somebody - though I guess there would be an issue on 'common' land. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 30 Jul 13 18:09   Tree fell on car - insurance - CGNorwich

If a tree falls down and causes damage, then the owner of that tree is liable; the landowner should carry third party insurance or risk being sued. Not necessarily. A tree can fall down without it being anyone's fault. The idea that any accidental damage or injury is legally always someone's fault is simply not true. Certainly if you knew a tree was damaged or diseased and you did nothing about it and it fell and caused damage to a third party you would be liable. If a healthy tree blows over in a gale and causes damage or injury to a third party then you would not be liable. This is what is sometimes referred to as an "act of god" Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 30 Jul 13 20:07   Tree fell on car - insurance - Robin O'Reliant

You could always sue the Pope. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 30 Jul 13 21:55   Tree fell on car - insurance - swiss tony

As an atheist, that exclusion doesn't apply to me.... 'act of god'? no such entity so it can't apply! Last edited by: swiss tony on Tue 30 Jul 13 at 21:55 Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 30 Jul 13 23:07   Tree fell on car - insurance - CGNorwich

Denial of the existence of God does not necessarily provide you with protection from the danger of random events such as falling trees. Some might argue that it might make you more vulnerable. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 31 Jul 13 11:57   Tree fell on car - insurance - No FM2R

>If a tree falls down and causes damage, then the owner of that tree is liable Only if they were negligent; knew the tree was dodgy, never checked it, ignored clues, etc. etc. Otherwise, nothing. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 31 Jul 13 11:58   Tree fell on car - insurance - No FM2R

>> my house insurance covers third party claims No, your insurance covers your liability to third parties. Just because they suffered damage, or just because they claim, does not mean that you are liable. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 31 Jul 13 22:07   Tree fell on car - insurance - Haywain

"never checked it" Speaking as an arboriculturalist, I can tell you that not many trees are properly 'checked'. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 31 Jul 13 22:44   Tree fell on car - insurance - CGNorwich

I suspect they are on National Trust properties www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-14304489 Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 31 Jul 13 23:10   Tree fell on car - insurance - Haywain

"I suspect they are on National Trust properties" Yes, I am familiar with that tragic incident. The NT's defence was that their trees were inspected. My point is that I doubt that many are inspected....... there's an awful lot of 'em around! Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 31 Jul 13 23:22   Tree fell on car - insurance - Ted

It happened a few years ago at Dunham Massey in Cheshire. A 12 yr old boy was killed when one of the trees in the Beech Cathedral by the main drive fell on him. I was a volunteer park ranger there at the time although I wasn't on duty that day. In my time there, I thought that the tree maintainance was very sloppy. Branches were just pulled off the higher trees by tractors and chains. many of the chains can still be seen hanging there. I think Beeches used to 'let go ' without any warning, branches crashing to the ground. A lot of the Beeches were planted in about 1714 so must be a bit precarious by now. There was talk of corporate manslaughter for some time but I don't think anything came of it. The last owner before the NT, Lord Stamford, wouldn't have be pleased with the state of the deer park with branches and felled trees just left out to rot. Ted Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 1 Aug 13 00:15   Tree fell on car - insurance - No FM2R

>>Speaking as an arboriculturalist, I can tell you that not many trees are properly 'checked'. I am sure that you're correct. However, it would not be reasonable to expect every tree to be inspected to an arboriculturalist's standards. It should be checked as far as is reasonable with an expert called in if there is doubt or risk. Anyway, that's a bit besides the point, hence use of the word "if". You can only claim against another person if they were liable, where "liable" virtually always means "negligent". Ownership is not sufficient for liability per se. Reply to this message | Report message