Motoring Discussion > Last cars without computers inside? Miscellaneous
Thread Author: movilogo Replies: 27
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 Mon 8 Jul 13 11:36 
 Last cars without computers inside? - movilogo
Yesterday I watched an episode on BBC iPlayer about London buses which featured iconic Route Master buses

along with their modern counter part i.e. Borris Buses.

A route master mechanic said how these buses are running even after 60 years and one can fix them with some basic toolkits.

On the other hand, new RM Buses require computer for almost everything. He said no way new buses will run after 60 years. I agree with him entirely.

Now my question is, what are the last cars which came out of production line without computers built inside them?

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 Mon 8 Jul 13 11:49 
 Last cars without computers inside? - Zero
Any kind of computer? and whats your definition of computer? Are we talking computers or electronic control?
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 8 Jul 13 at 11:50
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 Mon 8 Jul 13 11:52 
 Last cars without computers inside? - movilogo
Something that does not require main dealer's diagnostic toolkit to fix.
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 Mon 8 Jul 13 12:00 
 Last cars without computers inside? - Lygonos
>> Something that does not require main dealer's diagnostic toolkit to be hooked up so a shaved monkey can decide what fault code is showing, and thus which system needs to be entirely replaced to make the best profit.

Last car I had with no onboard CPU (as opposed to relays etc) would have been a 1980 Austin Maxi.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Mon 8 Jul 13 at 12:03
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 Mon 8 Jul 13 12:13 
 Last cars without computers inside? - RattleandSmoke
Most fuel injection systems have ECU control, although there were some early types which were mechanical. Almost all cars in the 1980s had basic computer systems even if they had a carb however they were a lot more simple than what you have today, and there was no canbus.

I would guess the last cars sold without any soft of computer control were the last of the carb eastern bloc cars such as the Lada Riva. Of course any none CANBUS car can be fixed without a computer but from about 2001 onwards all new cars have used the CANBUS system and those it really is easy to use a computer to diagnose electrical/sensor faults.

I remember my old Fiesta (pre OBD-II) had a very diagnostic system. My car was over revving like mad, so my uncle used his antique LED diagnostic system (he has modern ones too) which flashed a series of LEDs, from there it gave a fault code, which was throttle position sensor. He told me how to test it etc. I tested it with the multimeter and realised it was working fine, then I saw a break in the cable, so I simply cut out the bad cable with a new one. Of course it was a bodge, but I knew the car was to be scrapped soon anyway.

My point is that computer diagnostics can actually make things a lot simpler. I am not mechanically minded at all, changing spark plugs is as far as I will go, but I have changed many sensors on cars and correctly diagnosed the fault. Internet forums such as this make that process so much easier too.

Now of course with an old purely mechanical you could fix the car at the road side with a BFH (big something hammer!) and a spanner but if a sensor fails you can't. However the computers are the reason why modern cars are so reliable, even if they do fail.

That said I do love the simplicity of the old distributor system, but I doubt many modern motorist can be bothered spending Sunday mornings tuning the points!

Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Mon 8 Jul 13 at 12:15
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 Mon 8 Jul 13 13:32 
 Last cars without computers inside? - Armel Coussine
My VW 411 Variant had electronically controlled fuel injection. It wasn't very frugal - the car did about 28mpg however it was driven - but worked reliably except when some of the web of little wires on top of the engine became unplugged.

However the car also had a complex, leak-prone heating system that worked off the exhaust, whose many expensive parts were difficult to fit without dropping the engine. Because it only worked well at moderate to high cruising speeds, the system had a PETROL STOVE for use at urban speeds. It was supposed to come on and off automatically. In the top model a timer could be set to turn the stove on 15 minutes before you came out of your house to drive away through the snow.

Fortunately the petrol stove didn't work in my car, or any other 411 I saw. But that car had a computer, and a petrol stove.

Chapeau! Radical these Germans.
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 Mon 8 Jul 13 13:35 
 Last cars without computers inside? - Armel Coussine
>> I do love the simplicity of the old distributor system, but I doubt many modern motorist can be bothered spending Sunday mornings tuning the points!

Sound instincts there Sheikha. But the fact is that even when they did bother, most people couldn't begin to do it correctly, including many 'professionals'. If the thing started, idled and drove, they just left it at that.
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 Mon 8 Jul 13 14:23 
 Last cars without computers inside? - Boxsterboy
My 1987 2CV doesn't have a computer. Or at least it didn't until I put electronic ignition on it!
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 Mon 8 Jul 13 14:23 
 Last cars without computers inside? - Zero

>> That said I do love the simplicity of the old distributor system, but I doubt
>> many modern motorist can be bothered spending Sunday mornings tuning the points!

Its an obscene system, heavy, cumbersome, inefficient, inaccurate, unreliable and designed to wear out. It was merely a stop gap for a proper system.
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 Mon 8 Jul 13 14:56 
 Last cars without computers inside? - Armel Coussine
>>> Its an obscene system... merely a stop gap for a proper system


What a load of ignorant cobblers. It was a highly evolved Heath Robinson system which worked perfectly if maintained, like everything else in the automobile. Electronic engine control systems are no more 'proper' than what went before them. They just work better on the whole and don't require regular skilled (or at least intelligent) maintenance. They are the latest layer of Heath Robinson.

In the middle of nowhere you'd rather have something you can cobble yourself to get going than some melted black box whose nearest replacement may be thousands of miles away across desert.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Mon 8 Jul 13 at 14:57
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 Mon 8 Jul 13 15:39 
 Last cars without computers inside? - Dog
>>What a load of ignorant cobblers. It was a highly evolved Heath Robinson system which worked perfectly if maintained, like everything else in the automobile

That's quite correct Sire, Bosch were best and, if genuine Bosch contact breakers were used, instead of those awful Intermotor things, and the cam lightly greased (I used to use a white silicon grease) they would give sterling service for 10,000 smiles, and beyond!
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 Mon 8 Jul 13 16:06 
 Last cars without computers inside? - Zero
>> >>What a load of ignorant cobblers. It was a highly evolved Heath Robinson system which
>> worked perfectly if maintained, like everything else in the automobile
>>
>> That's quite correct Sire, Bosch were best and, if genuine Bosch contact breakers were used,
>> instead of those awful Intermotor things, and the cam lightly greased (I used to use
>> a white silicon grease) they would give sterling service for 10,000 smiles, and beyond!

A WHOLE 10,000 MILES!

wow....impressed.

(was that sarcastic enough?)
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 Mon 8 Jul 13 16:38 
 Last cars without computers inside? - Dog
(Hehehe!)
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 Mon 8 Jul 13 17:31 
 Last cars without computers inside? - Armel Coussine

>> A WHOLE 10,000 MILES!

You know perfectly well that 10,000 miles without going seriously out of tune wasn't bad for a curburetted contact-breaker car. It would be a year's motoring for an average driver and almost certainly would have two services in that time when (if they were done properly, a big if I admit) the ignition would be tweaked and fettled.

Trouble was, poor maintenance or a dunderheaded approach to tuning was prevalent in those days.
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 Mon 8 Jul 13 19:24 
 Last cars without computers inside? - madf
What was the point of getting the ignition timing spot on when the carb would go out of tune if it rained, thundered, was cold, was hot or snowed.

?

I have never had an EFI system fail in 30 years. The mechanical FI on the Triumph 2.5PI I owned ,however, was a crock of .........
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 Mon 8 Jul 13 19:41 
 Last cars without computers inside? - -
Our 93 Volvo 940 td as fitted with the VW LT van 6 pot engine, fully mechanical injection system and no engine management computer at all, probably had something to operate the ABS but thats it.

Gearbox was simple 4 speed plus electrically switched overdrive via a button atop the gearstick.

Its still going but apparently my retired BiL is retiring the old girl, he's apparently lent it to someone else who's still using it but BiL's son seems to think its now too shabby for him to use...no i don't get it either, the thing still runs like clockwork and goes like stink, doesn't rust, refuses to break down, easily rides the Northamptonshire version of Beiruts roads after a good shelling and you sit in comfort in armchair seats.
And if my Sis's lorry needs jump starting they still use the old girl and the 24v surge has never even so much as blown a bulb.

Kids, they know nowt, they really don't make 'em like that any more.

If another good 940 or especially 960 estate came up with lowish mileage i'd be tempted.
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 Mon 8 Jul 13 19:58 
 Last cars without computers inside? - Harleyman

>>
>> In the middle of nowhere you'd rather have something you can cobble yourself to get
>> going than some melted black box whose nearest replacement may be thousands of miles away
>> across desert.
>>

Couldn't agree more. Wouldn't dream of having points/condenser etc on any modern car but for vehicles of their era they work very nicely thank you.

Trouble is that it's a rare garage these days who'd even be able to produce a set of points out of some dusty long-forgotten drawer; and I dare not think of the blank look you'd get in Halfords.

Some years ago, I had a set of points break up on one of my old Ironhead Sportsters; a 1970's nutter's bike totally at odds with the modern sanitised boulevard cruisers. Quick walk to a local garage eventually produced a set from, IIRC, a Triumph Herald, which I got working after a fashion and managed to ride home. Once in the workshop, a quick trim up with a small file, re-set them and the beast ran like a watch.

Still run points on both my older Harleys, and they're none the worse for it.
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 Mon 8 Jul 13 20:25 
 Last cars without computers inside? - corax
Bosch K jetronic was a great mechanical fuel injection system. I had it on my 90 Quattro. Always started year after year, the engine was responsive and very economical if you didn't floor it everywhere. The only disadvantage was that you couldn't easily modify it to supply more fuel where needed across the rev range.

I drove an Audi 100 with the later Bosch KE electronic set up and it was horrible. Maybe something wrong with it, but it had no response and surged all the time.

Golf Gti's, XR3i's, Capri 2.8i's all had the K Jetronic and I marvelled at how these engines started and ran so smoothly without a glitch after carburettors and blasted auto chokes.
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 Mon 8 Jul 13 20:39 
 Last cars without computers inside? - Kevin
>Golf Gti's, XR3i's, Capri 2.8i's all had the K Jetronic..

As did more exotic machinery - the 308 GTBi, GTSi and QV.
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 Mon 8 Jul 13 20:40 
 Last cars without computers inside? - DP
A Cavalier SRi mk2 was my first ownership experience with fuel injection. This was Bosch LE Jetronic - a 1st generation multipoint EFI system, which used a completely separate, conventional electronic ignition system with a conventional (adjustable) dizzy, rotor arm, cap and HT leads. Apart from a tendency to eat HT leads, the thing was faultlessly reliable and never gave a moment's trouble. A very responsive, sweet revving, and very smooth engine capable of well over 30 mpg.
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 Mon 8 Jul 13 21:40 
 Last cars without computers inside? - Boxsterboy
Dad had an early Triumph 2.5PI. Rather troublesome, I recall. And noisy. The injection systems on early petrol injection cars were very noisy at very low speeds.
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 Mon 8 Jul 13 23:12 
 Last cars without computers inside? - Ted

The Jowett has points, of course, although I fitted a brand new MGB distributor a couple of years ago. Runs a lot better.

The Velocette has a baseplate at the front of the flat twin engine fitted with points and a condenser. A cam on the end of the crankshaft operates the points. The Lucas points were always troublesome and hard to get so I marked the baseplate ( Tippex again ) where the cam follower should be and fitted a set of Bosch points and condenser. No further trouble !

Ted
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 Tue 9 Jul 13 08:41 
 Last cars without computers inside? - AnotherJohnH
>> Dad had an early Triumph 2.5PI. Rather troublesome, I recall. And noisy.

A good one, set up properly, would go very well though... happy days.
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 Tue 9 Jul 13 09:14 
 Last cars without computers inside? - movilogo
Hindustan Ambassador (as shown in latest Top Gear episode) has very little electronics and still coming out of factory!

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 Tue 9 Jul 13 10:27 
 Last cars without computers inside? - Boxsterboy
>> >> Dad had an early Triumph 2.5PI. Rather troublesome, I recall. And noisy.
>>
>> A good one, set up properly, would go very well though... happy days.
>>

Yes, he was forever tinkering with it trying to get it just right! Lucas system IIRC?
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 Tue 9 Jul 13 10:46 
 Last cars without computers inside? - Old Navy
In lengthy discussions I had with traffic police drivers on their preferred company cars, the Triumph 2.5PI was said to be superb when it worked, but was unreliable. Their preference was for a car with rapid acceleration rather than a high top speed.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 9 Jul 13 at 10:47
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 Tue 9 Jul 13 10:55 
 Last cars without computers inside? - AnotherJohnH
>> Yes, he was forever tinkering with it trying to get it just right! Lucas system IIRC?

I believe it was Lucas.

The beast I had in mind was my Dad's company car, and the dealers got an ear-full when it didn't go as well as it could after a service: ISTR there was one lad who had "been on the course" and could make it fly - if somebody else had been at it, well, it was soon back with them.
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 Tue 9 Jul 13 11:48 
 Last cars without computers inside? - joshsalvage
>> Something that does not require main dealer's diagnostic toolkit to fix.
>>

Amen to that. It's all a scam, I'm telling ya!
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