| Motoring Discussion > Where is RoSPA? | Miscellaneous |
| Thread Author: Haywain | Replies: 30 |
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New Tue 18 Jun 13 08:40
Where is RoSPA? - Haywain
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I haven't heard much about RoSPA lately - have they disappeared in the 'bonfire of the quangos'? If not - I have a project for them. The DM is currently running a sad story about an old couple who have tragically lost their lives in a car crash; the DM, naturally, concentrates its report on the emotional side of the story and about the observation that the couple 'died holding hands'. There are few details about the crash - the first that I noticed was that the other car was an Audi ........ "mmm" I pondered; "we all know about about Audi drivers"...... But, I opened my eyes when I went on to read that the elderly driver's car was a recently purchased AUTOMATIC Mondeo. I wonder if RoSPA has ever analysed the number of accidents involving elderly drivers who have recently taken to driving an automatic, because I think it would be well worth reviewing. My own suspicions are that elderly drivers with no experience of automatics are encouraged to take to them in the mistaken belief that they will be easier to drive. I also suspect that many accidents occur in low-speed manoeuvring situations which are not reported because there are no injuries, but a great deal of embarrassment; ref - the recent story about our local mayor who drove into the supermarket. |
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New Tue 18 Jun 13 08:53
Where is RoSPA? - Manatee
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Is it converting to auto that is the problem, or autos per se? Maybe I'll find out in due course. Herself has been driving an automatic for 11 years. |
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New Tue 18 Jun 13 09:17
Where is RoSPA? - -
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Certainly the gist of where your going Haywain is a problem with satans automated manual designs however many clutches it has, traditional autos or well designed alternatives are if anything more controllable than manual IMO. The problem with them as many here have found is that at close manouevering speeds especially if an incline is involved the on/off button nature of the transmission is a big problem, where very quick reactions and finding a away of tricking the transmission into doing what you want can be the only way to make it behave itself and avoid low speed collision damage. Traditional TC and good CVT transmissions (Avensis) are infintely and minutely controllable, better IMO than a manual box with clutch mated to one of the many modern engines that will stall far too easily. One of my regular drops at Wolverhampton needed a new plate glass window, an older chap climbed abord a new C4 Picasso with satans box, selected D instead of R, trouble is no creep, hence it took off but straight into the showroom without opening the window, fortunately no one hurt. I think the problem is that people don't test drive cars properly for a variety of reasons, nipping up the road on the route chosen for its ease by the sales geezer is not going to show up any problems. See we now have hill hold functions being fitted to these useless toy autos, that says it all. Last edited by: gordonbennet on Tue 18 Jun 13 at 09:17
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New Tue 18 Jun 13 09:33
Where is RoSPA? - Cliff Pope
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I don't see how anything can beat the sensitivity of a traditional gearbox and clutch. I can creep up to a wall, bollard etc and instantly feel the moment it touches, just brushing by the mearest hairth's breadth. Manouvring to hook up a trailer I set the trailer ball a fraction too low, so I can feel the tow-ball graze under the lip and engage the cup. When I learned to drive my instructor used the matchbox trick - he put a box under the back wheel on a hill start, to test that I could pull away without crushing the box. Likewise balancing a glass of water on the bonnet to test smoothness. What's gone wrong with a world where people regularly drive through shop windows ? |
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New Wed 19 Jun 13 09:32
Where is RoSPA? - Zero
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>> Is it converting to auto that is the problem, or autos per se? >> >> Maybe I'll find out in due course. Herself has been driving an automatic for 11 >> years. My mother has never driven anything other than an auto, she has an "auto only" license. Yet she still had "runaway" and crashed it into a supermarket trolley shelter hard enough to write off the car (and shelter, and I hate to think of the emotional distress to the trolleys ) Age and Auto = Danger. (no matter what foot you use to brake) |
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New Tue 18 Jun 13 09:22
Where is RoSPA? - NortonES2
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| RoSPA are a charity. The Home Office are the dept. with responsibility for road accidents, but they are not over-concerned it seems, as the police are not given a specific task in relation to the big picture. Therefore, they don't bother. |
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New Tue 18 Jun 13 11:45
Where is RoSPA? - Haywain
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"The Home Office are the dept. with responsibility for road accidents, but they are not over-concerned it seems, as the police are not given a specific task in relation to the big picture. Therefore, they don't bother." I find it quite disturbing that no one seems to give a monkey's about all this. Whilst the newspapers like to attract attention with particularly tragic or comic headlines, no one reads on to discover the common factor - a newly purchased automatic car. "Devoted elderly couple killed in collision; elderly lady drives into hospital's fish pond; elderly mayor drives through door into Tesco Express. And so on, and so on ". What is needed is some sort of investigative journalism; it would have been an ideal subject for the old 'That's Life' TV programme. |
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New Tue 18 Jun 13 12:01
Where is RoSPA? - Bromptonaut
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While I'm all in favour of getting some concrete data on this what, assuming the numbers bear out the theory do we do about it. 'Auto-manuals' are a new innovation and the evidence of GB and others tells us they bring problems where fine control is difficult. But this has gone on for years with trad TC automatics as well. Usually accelerator/brake confusion; it doesn't stop so pedal is pressed harder "because the brakes failed". Some public advice would be good so that at least there was an awareness and people might tell Mum to be careful or to seek some professional help in adapting. Should we go further and require a re-test for conversion to auto? |
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New Tue 18 Jun 13 12:55
Where is RoSPA? - NortonES2
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I agree, Haywain.
Last edited by: NIL on Tue 18 Jun 13 at 12:58
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New Tue 18 Jun 13 09:40
Where is RoSPA? - Haywain
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"Is it converting to auto that is the problem, or autos per se? " I can't imagine that anyone would have a problem after 11 years; I think the difficulties lie in trying to overcome deep, ingrained automatic reactions, particularly in spur-of-the moment decisions. It would be worse after a short while when the driver gets into the 'unconscious incompetence' stage [for anyone who has studied management psychology]. I believe also that some people are better able to adapt than others ....... and I would also accept that I am bad at adapting! I can think of 3 particular situations where I have found difficulties: 1. I always rode British motorbikes, then had a 20 year break before riding a Suzuki with the gear change/rear brakes on swapped sides. It took me ages to get used to it. Yet a friend is happily able to race classic British bikes at the weekend and transfer to a Honda VFR for his daily commutes. 2. I recall driving in France and starting to feel pretty good about it; then one day, on a single track road, I came upon a vehicle approaching from the other direction. Stupidly, my reaction was to pull onto the verge on my left-hand side. Fortunately, no one was going fast and there was no collision. 3. I was in my mid-50s when we went to Tasmania and, although I had specified a 'manual' car, to the hirer, I was presented with an automatic. My SiL drove it out of Hobart for me, and then I had some open roads to practice on - but trying to park it was very difficult. It was like learning to drive, all over again. I'd hate to try it if I were 80. |
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New Tue 18 Jun 13 11:06
Where is RoSPA? - Robin O'Reliant
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Part of the problem is when people reach a certain age and find their driving skills have diminished to a worrying level they think a switch to an automatic will make it all alright again. No matter how auto a car is when the brain can no longer react in time you're going to have problems, and it is during low speed manouvres when quick changes of tempo and direction are required where you'll get caught out. If I ever reach the stage where I can't manage a manual that'll be when I decide enough is enough. |
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New Tue 18 Jun 13 11:56
Where is RoSPA? - WillDeBeest
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Yet a friend is happily able to race classic British bikes at the weekend and transfer to a Honda VFR for his daily commutes. I think doing both regularly but alternately is not a problem. I've mostly been driving the automatic LEC recently, but was back in the Volvo at the weekend and only once, after a motorway stretch, had to remind myself to put the clutch down at a stop line. It's just two sets of familiar habits, not like trying to learn something new at an advanced age. Finding the windscreen wash switch, on the other hand, after a week with the silly MB all-in-one... |
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New Tue 18 Jun 13 12:04
Where is RoSPA? - Bromptonaut
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| Mrs B, Miss B and I all move seamlessly between Xantia and Berlingo. Control layouts are similar but tacho and speedo are reversed. None of us has watched the wrong dial but I sometimes reach for Xantia's window switch in wrong place. |
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New Tue 18 Jun 13 13:39
Where is RoSPA? - No FM2R
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For many years I have regularly changed between RH & LH roads. I never have an issue, and in truth never even notice. *Unless* I'm driving the wrong-handed car for the roads I'm on. Taking a UK car to France, for example. I find it a nightmare. Especially when leaving one-way environments such as car parks. I think the auto/manual issue is this. I imagine that at 70yrs old having driven for 50yrs, driving is now second nature with no conscious thought for the actual "car managing". Hopefully conscious thought is still used for managing the roads and other drivers. Consequently when getting in a different vehicle, where some of the controls are fundamentally different, I think it is all too easy to remember to think about handling the vehicle. Not only that, I think it is very difficult to clear confusion in a hurry when something unexpected happens. Years ago in an urgent, rather than emergency, situation I inexplicably stamped down on the clutch rather than the brake. I was used to driving automatics. It took ages for my brain to work out what had happened, take the foot off the clutch and put it on the brake. I am sure if I had been in the habit of driving manuals at that time then I would have worked it out in a flash. (ignoring the fact that I probably wouldn't have made the mistake in the first place). Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 18 Jun 13 at 13:39
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New Tue 18 Jun 13 14:05
Where is RoSPA? - -
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One of the few things i disagree with HJ on is his enthusiasm for left foot braking on autos. Left foot should be nailed to the footrest out the way and forgotten, LFB is of no use whatsoever with automanuals anyway as the instant you touch the brake power is cut. Which i found terribly awkward those few sweaty times i needed to force one of the horrid contraptions over a lump but stop dead within 3 to 6" or get a bashed in roof or bonnet top, in similar circs a TC or good CVT would be a pleasure to place precisely. |
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New Tue 18 Jun 13 14:13
Where is RoSPA? - Londoner
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>> Left foot should be nailed to the footrest out the way and forgotten . . . +1 (and that's a very large "1") |
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New Tue 18 Jun 13 16:27
Where is RoSPA? - madf
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>> Part of the problem is when people reach a certain age and find their driving >> skills have diminished to a worrying level they think a switch to an automatic will >> make it all alright again. No matter how auto a car is when the brain >> can no longer react in time you're going to have problems, and it is during >> low speed manouvres when quick changes of tempo and direction are required where you'll get >> caught out. >> >> If I ever reach the stage where I can't manage a manual that'll be when >> I decide enough is enough. >> Hmm I bought an auto specifically because as I grow older I find traffic tiring. especially the creep, stop, creep type. Naturally I test drove .. and did not buy the auto with a computer idiot in control but a Jazz CVT /slush box which is easily controllable by an old semi senile buffer like me.. :--) Last edited by: madf on Tue 18 Jun 13 at 16:28
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New Wed 19 Jun 13 09:07
Where is RoSPA? - zuave
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| I use LFB ocasionally when driving the XJ. When in Germany my parking space near accommodation is just about long enough for the XJ but on an incline and has steel post at the top-end. The incline is too much for creep but, a tiny increase in rpm with the right foot and feathering the brake with the left foot allows me to crawl until the car just ceases forwards movement and kisses the post. Then I have 97% XJ in the parking space and just a little bum sticking out the end:-)! |
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New Fri 21 Jun 13 12:10
Where is RoSPA? - ToMoCo
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I don't really get the 'mixing up A & B pedals' they are in the same place as the manual they have been driving for years. I regularly drive various cars/vans on a daily basis and occasionally get caught out with the indicators being on the 'right' side in the Mazda. I do remember one occasion when I had an auto Shuttle (fantastic car). Approaching a roundabout I went to 'dip' the clutch and caught the edge of the over-sized brake pedal. In the resulting instant confusion I must have pressed even harder and nearly put myself through the windscreen! Thankfully nobody behind me! |
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New Fri 21 Jun 13 15:57
Where is RoSPA? - Armel Coussine
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A widely reported crash yesterday involved an Audi which had somehow managed 'while manoeuvring at low speed' to turn itself over and roll on a lot of nippers and a lollipop woman, having apparently leapt over a line of bollards. The driver, a whippersnapper of 62, was thought to have 'pressed the wrong pedal' while suffering a 'coughing fit'. Where the hell do they find these people, and more to the point why the hell do they let them out on their own? In one report a speed bump was said to have played a part in this so far incomprehensible accident (if such it was). I do hope so. Then perhaps there will be calls to get rid of these dangerous, pointless, offensive things. |
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New Fri 21 Jun 13 16:57
Where is RoSPA? - AnotherJohnH
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>> Then perhaps there will be calls to get rid of these dangerous, pointless, offensive things which one??? Audi's? old folk? speed bump? And, while we're on the subject - do flying Audi's (of which there seem to be too many) share their DNA with the ones which flipped at Le Mans? |
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New Fri 21 Jun 13 17:09
Where is RoSPA? - Armel Coussine
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62 isn't 'old'. If you think it is, you are still in short trousers or ought to be. I meant speed bumps. It ought to be illegal for ignorant prats of councillors to damage the roads in this way at very considerable expense. They should be issued with picks and shovels and made to remove the things themselves without pay or expenses. |
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New Fri 21 Jun 13 18:20
Where is RoSPA? - AnotherJohnH
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>> 62 isn't 'old'. If you think it is, you are still in short trousers or ought to be. I know - only teasing. It was perfectly clear in your comment what you meant, but for the "humour" of my tease I couldn't ignore the age as it featured so much earlier in the thread, and I'm close to that age myself. "Old" is generally reckoned to start at least 15 years older than yourself. |
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New Fri 21 Jun 13 18:27
Where is RoSPA? - Armel Coussine
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>> "Old" is generally reckoned to start at least 15 years older than yourself. You are flattering me AJH... I will be a bit surprised if I make old bones by that standard. And as I have proved, I am quite old enough to fail to get hip modern jokey asides... Duh... |
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New Fri 21 Jun 13 19:06
Where is RoSPA? - Bill Payer
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>> 62 isn't 'old'. It is in South Wales. :) |
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New Fri 21 Jun 13 17:05
Where is RoSPA? - Robin O'Reliant
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>> The driver, a whippersnapper of 62, was thought to have 'pressed the wrong pedal' while >> suffering a 'coughing fit'. Where the hell do they find these people, and more to >> the point why the hell do they let them out on their own? >> >> AC, I had a coughing fit behind the wheel some years back when I was on the way down with a bad chest infection. Believe me, it was a frightening experience as the whole body sort of goes into spasms and your eyes automatically close. For a good few seconds you have no control whatsoever. This is one guy I can sympathise with. |
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New Fri 21 Jun 13 17:16
Where is RoSPA? - Armel Coussine
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You didn't mow down a bus queue though did you RR? We've all had coughing fits, sudden sneezes etc., but surely if it's a coughing fit that bad, when you are manoeuvring at low speed, you would try to stop until you were back on top of things? I might sympathise if I knew the whole story, but from the account given so far I don't. I can't say I've ever had a coughing fit that deprived me of all physical coordination. Some perhaps, but not 'all'. |
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New Fri 21 Jun 13 18:32
Where is RoSPA? - -
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I have to agree with AC, i had a severe choking fit whilst on the motorway, couldn't get a breath for what seemed like ages, first priority get lorry on hard shoulder and stopped and handbraked, then sort breathing out by calming oneself to release the tensed throat. Its as much self survival as not wanting to be out of it with a vehicle hurtling unmanned as it were down the road. An Audi at town speeds should be stationary in seconds. You don't have to drive more than 2 minutes anywhere at any time to come across someone who hasn't a clue what they are doing behind the wheel, invariably in cars far too big and powerful for them. |
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New Fri 21 Jun 13 23:05
Where is RoSPA? - Ted
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>> A widely reported crash yesterday involved an Audi which had somehow managed 'while manoeuvring at I read this in the mail. It struck me, not for the first time, the lengths the press go to to pad out articles. Sad for the woman injured of course, but by the end of the piece we knew her name, age, where she was born ( Germany ), previous occupation, daughter's name, age, occupation, husband's name, occupation and what his job involved....together with where they all lived. I've read reports like this where even the family pets are described and named ! Too much info, Lud ? Ted |
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New Sat 22 Jun 13 02:43
Where is RoSPA? - Armel Coussine
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>> Too much info, Lud ? Not enough. I was struck by the story because it was about quite a bad fatal accident but the explanation given seemed hopelessly sketchy and unconvincing. Of course there is no prescriptive right to know everything and I don't expect to. Couldn't help noticing this story though. Presses two of my main buttons, cars and 'news'. |
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New Sat 22 Jun 13 11:39
Where is RoSPA? - Haywain
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The information that I'm interested in wasn't there - i.e. 'was it an automatic, and how long had the chap been driving it?'. Has anyone heard/read since? |
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