As most of the regulars will know, I live in Austria and occasionally visit the UK. My son did, on several occasions, drive our Austrian-registered RHD car until we found out that it is not allowed for UK residents to use non-UK registered vehicles on UK roads. The same subject came up again on this forum, when a UK citizen living in France left his French-registered car for his son, once again a UK resident, to drive it to a garage. Once again, this was not allowed.
I have raised the question with the DVLA via the gov.uk website, and had a remarkably quick response - less than a week. It's quite clear that this legislation is intended to stop non-UK citizens arriving in the UK with a foreign-registered car, becoming resident, but failing to re-register their car. In this way, they avoid such nasties as import duty and excise licences. Fair enough.
My contention is that this is a completely different situation from my case and the other example above, whereby I own my car, it is taxed and insured in the country of registration, and complies with the roadworthiness requirements of that country. It is fully insured for my son to drive, he has a full UK driving licence. His driving of the vehicle is incidental, and he is not the main driver. Applying the simple judgement of common sense, why shouldn't he?
It's interesting to note that the "guidance" on the gov.uk website refers to "using" a vehicle", as does the DVLA response. Why not use the word "driving"? Is there a legal difference between "using" and "driving"? And both the gov.uk website and the DVLA response refer to such use being "not allowed", rather than "illegal". Again, is there a difference?
My contention is that this is a piece of legislation that was put there for a valid reason, which I'm not arguing with, but has had an unintended side effect, and I have told the DVLA this in my response to their email. I doubt whether we'll see any change in their view but it remains to be seen.
Rant mode off!
Last edited by: Mike H on Sun 16 Jun 13 at 10:18
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I think it gets worse. You still got your UK driving license? That means YOU cant drive it over here either, because in driving license terms, you are still resident.
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>> I think it gets worse. You still got your UK driving license? That means YOU
>> cant drive it over here either, because in driving license terms, you are still resident.
>>
Don't worry, I exchanged that for an Austrian one!
There are a number of friends here who have Austrian-registered cars who drive them on UK licences by using either their old (pre-emigration) addresses, or those of friends. I've tried explaining the situation, but they just stick their heads in the sand and say that they might get round to exchanging them at renewal time.
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I remember something similar. A British family I knew who were living in Spain had a daughter who decided to go to university in the UK. They had an old but serviceable Peugeot 205 ( Spanish registered LHD ) kicking around at home which she planned to bring to the UK to use at uni and to drive herself back and from home during the holidays.
Can't remember the details but I do recall she wasn't allowed to do that.
Can't think why.
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Write to your MEP, maybe they can sort this out with EU Regs, rather than wasting time on throwing fish in the sea, carbondioxide twaddle and cucumber girth?
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>> I remember something similar. A British family I knew who were living in Spain had
>> a daughter who decided to go to university in the UK. They had an old
>> but serviceable Peugeot 205 ( Spanish registered LHD ) kicking around at home which she
>> planned to bring to the UK to use at uni and to drive herself back
>> and from home during the holidays.
>>
>> Can't remember the details but I do recall she wasn't allowed to do that.
>>
>> Can't think why.
>>
Actually, that is the other specific exception, as long as she was a Spanish resident, but only in the UK as a student.
Here's the relevant legislation, as quoted by the man from the DVLA in his email:
"Under European law
Directive 83/182/EEC Article 5
Article 5
Specific cases of temporary importation of private vehicles
1. Private vehicles imported temporarily shall be exempt from the taxes referred to in Article 1 in the following cases: (a) where a private vehicle registered in the country of normal residence of the user is used regularly for the journey from his residence to his place of work in an undertaking in the territory of another Member State, and vice versa. Exemptions under this head shall not be subject to any time limit;
(b) where a student uses a private vehicle registered in the Member State of his normal residence in the territory of another Member State in which the student is residing for the sole purpose of pursuing his studies. "
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>>as long as she was a Spanish resident, but only in the UK as a student.
Maybe that was the stumbling block. She'd been at school in the UK and during that time lived with grandparents. Maybe she wasn't "officially" a Spanish resident. Dunno. Long time ago.
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I don't think it's an unintended side effect as you suggest. If UK residents were allowed to drive non UK registered cars it would drive a coach and horses through the law.
A UK resident could after all then buy a foreign registered car , run it untaxed and uninsured with no MOT and be completely invisible to the system since in would not appear on DVLA and MID databases.
As to your question "Using" is deemed wider than driving. It is being in effective control of a vehicle. Allowed = legally allowed.
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It would be a breach of basic European Treaties - free movement of people. They're talking through their Little Englander backsides.
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"It would be a breach of basic European Treaties - free movement of people. They're talking through their Little Englander backsides."
What exactly has a restriction on UK residents driving foreign registered vehicles got to do with free movement of people?
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A example.Dutch chap has English girlfriend visiting him with a British registered car.He is not allowed to drive that car even if she is in the car going to the shops .This is all to do with custom and excise and taxes.He is in charge driving and it is illegal.
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I think that rule has been quietly dropped, or is certainly ignored.
Firstly, it's very hard to prove where someone is resident. And then there are problems with truck drivers - a resident of one country driving in another country, in a truck registered to another country, towing a trailer registered in yet another country.
I still have a UK trailer here, and sometimes tow it with a swedish car. A very nice policeman who was breath testing me told me he didn't think it was allowed, but then couldn't explain why it's entirely normal, and presumably legal, for a swedish truck to tow a german trailer. I didn't even bother to inform him that UK trailers aren't registered in their own right, and the number plate displayed was from a now sold UK car.
It's the usual problem, where those from certain countries generally obey the 'rules', and even if not following them exactly you can be fairly certain the vehicle is taxed, tested and insured. Whereas some from other countries are certainly flouting the rules, and quite possibly aren't insured.
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>> I don't think it's an unintended side effect as you suggest. If UK residents were
>> allowed to drive non UK registered cars it would drive a coach and horses through
>> the law.
>>
Seems to me that the law was designed for a specific reason - that is, to ensure that the relevant taxes were paid in the country of origin. In my case, I'm simply the equivalent of a grockle while I'm in the UK. The car belongs to me, and it's going back with me.
In Austria, there is an (oft-flouted) rule that imported cars MUST be registered here within one month of main residence being declared, in order that the relevant taxes are paid here. This is what the UK is trying to address, it's not really anything to do with who drives what car IMHO, and in this context I contend still that it's an unintentional side-effect. It's about the owner of the vehicle, NOT the driver.
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Seems to me that the law was designed for a specific reason - that is, to ensure that the relevant taxes were paid in the country of origin.
No, it was also designed to ensure that cars used by UK residents are taxed, insured and MOT'd and that that status can be readily checked via the DVLA and MID.
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>> Seems to me that the law was designed for a specific reason - that is,
>> to ensure that the relevant taxes were paid in the country of origin.
I've seen this issue discussed several times and I'm still not clear that there is any such actual law - it looks to me like it's more of a rule or regulation (Customs related) than anything else.
There are apparently all sorts of exemptions too - it doesn't apply to company owned cars and it seems to be OK if the foreign based owner is in the car when a Brit is driving it.
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>> It's interesting to note that the "guidance" on the gov.uk website refers to "using" a vehicle", as does the DVLA response. Why not use the word "driving"? Is there a legal difference between "using" and "driving"? And both the gov.uk website and the DVLA response refer to such use being "not allowed", rather than "illegal". Again, is there a difference?
Well.... surely 'driving' means the person operating the vehicle?
So... 'using' would cover anybody else in the vehicle?
ie, you are driving, and you give me a lift - surely that means I am 'using' your car?
Like I sometimes 'use' the bus to get to work?
Last edited by: swiss tony on Sun 16 Jun 13 at 12:29
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>> ie, you are driving, and you give me a lift - surely that means I
>> am 'using' your car?
>> Like I sometimes 'use' the bus to get to work?
>
No you are "being carried in". I think there is (or was) a specific criminal offence about allowing yourself to be knowingly "carried in" a stolen vehicle for example.
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Use, Cause, Permit and Aid and Abet is written in to most traffic legislation. The normal definition of Use generally applies however it can stretch further. For example if your car is parked on the road/public place and you are in your house you still commit the offence of 'No Insurance'. If you are in the passenger seat of your car which has no insurance both the driver and yourself are both 'Using' without Insurance. If you are not in the car you would be 'Permitting'. As an employer you could be 'Causing' if you told someone to drive a vehicle. An employer can also be 'Using' for the purpose of their business.
A passenger can 'Aid and Abet' if they have knowledge of the offence.
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Residency is defined as where you live for 185 days. So if you live in a member state for over that time you become a 'Resident'. Providing the vehicle is registered to your residential address abroad the I don't see an issue. Students and temporary workers have an extension to that time limit.
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>> Use, Cause, Permit and Aid and Abet is written in to most traffic legislation.
Well done FC....18 months out and I couldn't get it all straight in my head....and the amount of times I learnt it all for exams....(it took me a while for Ospre 2 for the two pips and I kept having to take part 1 again).
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"Residency is defined as where you live for 185 days"
That's just one of the criteria that can be used to determine residency. There are others. But the fact remains, how does anyone know how long you have been in the country? It may be easier in the UK as there are borders (in theory being checked), but in schengen no-one has a clue.
When I came here, had to register my right to stay longer than 3 months by showing (in my case) that I had enough money to support myself. But does that mean I'm a resident, or a long term visitor? I still have a UK address also, as well as some small business interests. I also have a personal number here, but that is required for almost everything, and came with the right to register paperwork. The Swedish think I'm a resident because I have the number, but that is not necessarily the case.
So if I drive my swedish car to england, and show my UK licence, how is anyone going to know where I'm resident. And more importantly, how can they prove it?
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>>
>> So if I drive my swedish car to england, and show my UK licence, how
>> is anyone going to know where I'm resident. And more importantly, how can they prove
>> it?
>>
I *think* a key thing is what I referred to earlier - this isn't actually illegal as in a criminal offence, but it's a breach of the Customs and Excise regulations. They have the power to simply impose penalties (not fines, only a court can impose a fine) and you then have to prove you are"innocent".
So it reverses the burden of proof and it's also done to a different standard (balance of probabilities instead of beyond reasonable doubt).
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The Spanish situation is thus:-
A UK reg (or other EU) car is allowed to be used on the roads in Spain providing that it is fully road legal in the UK - tax, MOT & insurance - for not more than 6 months/183 days in a year.
It used to be that if one kept a UK plated car there permanently that it had to be (officially!) kept in a parc fermé when not in (official!) use so that the law was not flouted. I'm not sure if this is still so.
If it is used for a longer period, it MUST be transferred to Spanish plates - expensive due to high and arbitrary valuation based taxes and complicated paperwork.
Failure to transfer is now being taken much more seriously, as it's an instant fine from the Guardia if pulled up by Trafico - useful income now that Spain is broke.
When we first went to Spain it was very common to see old UK registered cars and vans about with no tax or MOT and very dubious insurance.
As Spanish residents with a fully legal Spanish purchased and registered car, we were OK to visit the UK in it for whatever the UK's official limits allowed.
Last edited by: Roger on Sun 16 Jun 13 at 22:58
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I'm currently preparing a presentation for delivery on foreign vehicles, insurance and driving licences and its a minefield. The more I research the more ambiguities I find. A lot resolves around 'Residency' which in itself can be ambiguous. The legislation and guidance states that if stopped it is for the driver to prove that they have not exceeded the 185 day limit. well that may be the case but the reality is normally that the authorities have to prove the offence. (HM Customs and Revenue excepted).
A UK resident cannot drive a foreign registered vehicle except for a period of 30 days if the vehicle is being exported. However if the UK residents main employment is abroad then they may drive the vehicle in UK providing it is registered and insured etc in home country.
Some info here :
www.mib.org.uk/customer+services/en/general+cross+border+information/foreign+vehicles.htm
Oooh my head is starting to hurt again.
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It can't be that difficult can it? To find out if somebody is visiting or a resident here.
Why is this made so complicated the main thing is that a driver has a legal insurance where ever he or she drives.
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What we need is a European-wide membership organisation which will standardise laws and regulations and eliminate old national barriers to trade, tourism and free movement of peoples.
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>> What we need is a European-wide membership organisation which will standardise laws and regulations and eliminate old national barriers to trade, tourism and free movement of peoples.
>>
That would never work.
Some member countries would act as bullys forcing others to abide to the rules whilst ignoring the same rules themselves....
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Unfortunately Dutchie some of the people we are dealing with are trying to spin you and economical with the truth. Vague with their answers and also language barriers. That's when the fun starts. In UK we have the MIB database for insurance. No such thing exists in a lot of countries so trying to authenticate a piece of paper can prove difficult.
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>> Unfortunately Dutchie some of the people we are dealing with are trying to spin you
>> and economical with the truth. Vague with their answers and also language barriers. That's when
>> the fun starts. In UK we have the MIB database for insurance. No such thing
>> exists in a lot of countries so trying to authenticate a piece of paper can
>> prove difficult.
>>
The net result being what ? Guilty until you prove yourself otherwise ?
I pay taxes in two countries, have properties in two countries and two legally taxed, registered and where applicable MOTs. I can only have one driver's licence. What do I do if my UK car is off the road ? Pay taxes to walk ?
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"The net result being what ? Guilty until you prove yourself otherwise ?"
I was referring to those who do not have the required documents and hide within the myriad of seemingly complex rules and regulations.
For example you are hit by a car of say Bulgarian origin. How do I quickly ascertain that a piece of paper produced purporting to be insurance cover is genuine and valid???
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>>
>> I pay taxes in two countries, have properties in two countries and two legally taxed,
>> registered and where applicable MOTs. I can only have one driver's licence. What do I
>> do if my UK car is off the road ? Pay taxes to walk ?
>>
Not sure that's strictly correct, I currently hold drivers licences in 2 countries (my UK photocard being expired and non-renewable whilst abroad otherwise it would be 3).
In Australia or Hong Kong, you can only temporary import a car by leaving a large monetary bond (carnet) with customs and having a demonstrably valid local insurance policy for the duration of the time your car is permitted to be in the country. Not sure how the UK would enforce this with the tunnel etc but it is still an island isn't it ?
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>> If it is used for a longer period, it MUST be transferred to Spanish plates
>> - expensive due to high and arbitrary valuation based taxes and complicated paperwork.
>> Failure to transfer is now being taken much more seriously, as it's an instant fine
>> from the Guardia if pulled up by Trafico - useful income now that Spain is
>> broke.
>>
Austria's doing the same. They have been pulling over foreign registered cars, and if the driver/owner is a resident, and has been living here for more than a month, they have to not only register it and pay the duty, but also a hefty fine which is some multiple of the duty. They see it as a nice little earner.
They even have finance police here, quite separate from the normal force although looking similar, but presumably part of the finance ministry.
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The firm I used to work for had a number of vehicles that were registered abroad-the problem was not with licensing authorities but with Customs & Excise(HMRC) who did not like to lose the income from these vehicles not being taxed in this country and insisted that if the vehicles were in the UK for more than a very short period,they had to be registered here.There were no problems with driving licenses or insurance.
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UK resident using non-UK registered vehicle in UK - Zero
