I don't have stop-start on my car. What is this "properly shutting the car down" that the article talks about?
QUOTE
A colleague recently arrived at the office in my BMW 320d about 90 minutes before I did, and when I parked next to it I noticed the engine was running.
It turned out he'd parked, and the stop/start had closed down the engine. He'd then got out without properly shutting the car down, locked it and walked off without another thought. After a few minutes, the stop/start must have kicked the engine back into life, where it sat on idle for the next hour and a half.
It was clearly user error, but the keyless start didn't help in this situation as you don't have to remove a key to turn off the car. Ditto the fact that the radio stays on, even when you do turn off the engine, until you get out and lock the car.
While we're taking the blame for the mistake, it's surprising that it's so easy to make a quite basic error that could have had serious implications if it was locked in a garage, or had been left all day and run the fuel tank dry. As it is, it'll be interesting to see what impact it had on this tank's fuel economy, and it's probably negated the stop/start's benefit over the 10,000 miles so far.
END-QUOTE
tinyurl.com/mhwoo45
|
Keyless entry and stop-start aren't necessary.
It's easy when distracted to forget things which are normally just reflex actions. My Bentley didn't need a key to start it: it had a big ignition switch and a starter button. It wasn't totally silent, but it was very quiet when idling.
Somewhat to my shame (but I'm used to that) I once left it idling all night, anyway for five or six hours or more. When I found it running in the morning the low oil pressure light was flickering continuously and the coolant temperature was sky high. Used a lot of petrol too.
It seemed unharmed but I don't suppose it really was. Rolls-Royces thrived on use, but didn't like flat-out driving or other abuse. I was very bad in my thirties.
|
|
Stop/start is necessary to the extent that it reduces emissions, slightly, but enough to get into a lower tax band; thus the environment is saved a tiny bit and one's wallet is saved a bit
|
I'm surprised the car allowed itself to be locked from outside with the remote whilst the engine was "running".
When parking BMWs like this one I press the "Start / Stop" button to switch off the ignition and I check that the central instrument display has gone blank before getting out of the car. That's what I understand by "properly shutting the car down".
|
Interesting. I am going to see if I can do this later.
As far as my F30 goes, if I turn off the engine with a single press of the engine start button, this is like turning a conventional ignition key to I. The engine stops, but the accessories, some dash warning lights, i-Drive, stereo etc stay powered on.
To completely shut everything down (i.e. like turning a conventional key to position 0 and removing it), you can either press the engine start button a second time (without the clutch depressed), or get out of the car with all the stuff still powered on, and lock it with the remote. The second the car locks, all the accessories shut down.
I find it hard to believe that an engine in Stop mode through auto Start-Stop will override this shut down command from the remote locking, but I will test it. :-)
|
It is surprising that the stop/start system will allow the car to restart once the key is away from the car. Wonder why it didn't shut down again - or perhaps it was going on and off all the while.
However it's a very common complaint that owners of cars with keyless go systems do leave them with the engines running. Comes up on BMW forums all the time, and (ref the garage commenet earlier) I saw one mentioned where a lexus owner had left the car running in the garage overnight.
|
I don't suppose the driver locked the car properly, i expect he simply walked away expecing the car to lock itself as it sensed the key leave the vehicles 'force field'..;)
This stop start/push start stop and all variationsof the same is something else i don't want thankyou.
Put key in ignition, turn, car starts, i drive, park up, turn key t'other way, remove key, lock doors, cheerio.....thanks that'll do nicely just like it has for the past 40 odd years.
|
>> Put key in ignition, turn, car starts, i drive, park up, turn key t'other way, remove key, lock doors, cheerio.....thanks that'll do nicely just like it has for the past 40 odd years.
Yup, commonsense gb eh?
But even with conventional key starting one recent development may cause trouble.
Time was when one depressed the clutch during starting especially from cold to reduce the drag of cold thick gearbox oil on the starter motor and battery. But the car I have now won't start unless the clutch is depressed.
I've never started it by pushing or running downhill before turning on the ignition, but if it won't start with the clutch pedal up that would prove difficult: the engine would have to be spinning fast enough to carry on for a couple of revolutions at least after the clutch had been depressed. When the battery seems too low to turn it over you normally have to start it with jump leads from another battery or another car.
|
Bring back the starting handle, I say.
Pat
|
>>Bring back the starting handle
Please no. My wrist couldn't take it then, and its older now.
|
>> Bring back the starting handle
>> Please no. My wrist couldn't take it then, and its older now.
The starting handle did help when the battery or starter was knackered. But the damn thing was hell to use, even when properly designed, over-engineered and working properly (as in a fifties Rolls Bentley, a three-piece splined device clipped under the bonnet, probably cost as much to make as a cheap fifties car... worked best with a pull rather than push-pull).
Had to use it on the Light Fifteen a couple of times. That was really horrid, bent damn thing twisting all ways, worn lugs, worn crankshaft nose, holes in bumper and radiator grille not even in line and everything moving about as you tried to wind the mistuned engine into life... same sort of thing with the Bijou and even the Dyane.
It took me until adulthood, which in my case set in early (in my fifties), to understand that the crucial thing with car engines is their tune. When ignition and carburation are more or less perfect, and the plugs are decent and the air filter reasonable, cars start quite easily and run well and economically. Amazing how dumb one can be when young.
Got a kickback once when using a starting handle (too much ignition advance no doubt). It whipped round backwards and smacked my knuckles... yaroooh! But no broken bones.
|
>> I've never started it by pushing or running downhill before turning on the ignition, but
>> if it won't start with the clutch pedal up that would prove difficult: the engine
>> would have to be spinning fast enough to carry on for a couple of revolutions
>> at least after the clutch had been depressed. When the battery seems too low to
>> turn it over you normally have to start it with jump leads from another battery
>> or another car.
The angle on the transportert deck was enough for most bump starts, but as you allude to AC the modern stuff simply doesn't play ball where the old stuff would fire up in half an engine turn.
Also you couldn't just let it roll all the way to gather enough speed as even with the most modern of transporters the approach angle where skids touch floor was too steep and grounding out a distinct possibility, or as happened several times with others, thankfully not me, reversing off could see the complete front bumber assembly left attached to the lorry, Alfa Mitos favourite for this front bumper comes off far too easily.
Its these modern car bumpers see, part of the styling of the vehicle one touch and they're history.
|
>> these modern car bumpers see, part of the styling of the vehicle one touch and they're history.
Yeah, bumpers schmumpers. They are just ornamental panels, the automotive equivalent of lipstick and false eyelashes. They're expensive too.
Nevertheless one or two of those Mitos seem quite amusing (and practical apart from the bumpers) according to reviews.
|
>> QUOTE
sounds a bit fishy to me.
|
|
My new Honda CR-V has stop-start and keyless ignition. You can't lock the door with the engine running, but I've never tried with it in stop-start mode. I can't see it starting of its own accord as you have to depress the clutch pedal to actuate stop-start. You also have to have the "key" in close proximity as well for the engine to start.
|
>> I can't see it starting of its own accord as you have to depress the clutch pedal to
>> actuate stop-start.
>>
Mine works on the same principle, however, if the battery charge drops below a set point, or the cabin temp starts to rise the the engine will start without any input
|
>> Mine works on the same principle, however, if the battery charge drops below a set
>> point, or the cabin temp starts to rise the the engine will start without any
>> input
>>
Yep, that's why I wondered if maybe the engine had been cycling on and off.
|
Cant do it in the Volvo - one of the criteria for SS to work is drivers seat belt fastened.
When I stop on my driveway it stops, and as soon as you take the seat belt off the dash lights up like a Christmas tree and it will not restart unless you use the start button. If you try to leave the car it bongs to remind you the ignition is still on, but it wont restart
|
In my formative motoring years the biggest problem one encountered was actually getting the blasted things to start at all.
Now the pendulum has swung the other way and they start themselves when were're not even there. Progress, huh?
|
Our C4GP with stop/start has an odd quirk.
Stop on the driveway in gear, foot on the foot brake and the engine cuts out. Fine.
Take foot off the brake pedal, engine still off, put the EPB on and the engine restarts. Why ? I would have thought putting the park brake on would indicate I'm not planning on driving off any time soon.
The engine restarts ready for me to switch off with the ignition key.
If it happened occasionally I would think maybe the battery was topping up, this happens every time.
|
|
I couldn't get my stop-start to kick in at all tonight. Even after 50 minutes of running the car refused to switch itself off when I got home. Clearly one of the parameters being monitored in order to allow the auto stop to happen didn't pass muster.
|
|
Found on mine in the menu it tells you if the system is available or not. If not you get a generic reason as to why such as battery charging, climate comfort, engine management (temp, DPF regen) driver unbelted. I'm sure there are more, but those are the ones I've seen
|
Our S-Max came with Keyless ignition, and it is one option I will refuse in future (like tyre repair gunk).
Recently Mrs BB and I were in the car, and the ignition fob was in my pocket. She dropped me off and carried on her way. Fortunately she realised she didn't have the fob before she arrived at her destination and turned the car off. Because if she had turned the car off, she couldn't have restarted it, nor could she have locked it. Progress? I don't think so.
|
Presumably this bonkers system is designed for people with the Microsoft Windows mindset.
Press start to stop? What's that about?
Yet another development for the manufacturer's benefit rather than the poor old owner.
Long-term members may recall I accidentally left the Prelude running all night some years ago. At least 12 hours. It didn't even get very hot. 60,000 miles later it's still running like a sewing machine.
|
Some years ago I joked that cars were becoming as reliable as computers - ie a pain in the neck with all the pop-up messages, shut-down procedures, etc.
Now it seems it is true.
"Because you did not shut your car down properly last time Ford is now checking your ECU for errors. This may take a few minutes".
|
>>Recently Mrs BB and I were in the car, and the ignition fob was in my pocket.
Thank goodness she hadn't dropped you at Heathrow and you were through security and your flight to New York was just about to leave the ground when she called...
|
I drove a 3-series (or a Passatt, I cannot remember which, now, they were both company cars of the same person) which had stop-start. She hated it, and therefore sat at traffic lights with the clutch depressed so the engine never switched itself off... thus wearing out the clutch and thrust bearing as well as burning unnecessary petrol.
It took me about two minutes to get used to it, and I never noticed it again.
To the extent that the Jazz I hired the other week was so quiet on idle that I assumed it had stop-start fitted; fortunately the rev counter showed otherwise.
|
>> sat at traffic lights with the clutch depressed so the engine never switched itself off... thus wearing out the clutch and thrust bearing as well as burning unnecessary petrol.
I thought most if not all cars with SS had a switch somewhere to disable it until the next journey?
|
>> It took me about two minutes to get used to it, and I never noticed
>> it again.
>>
I must admit it seems intuitively wrong to me to keep stopping and starting an engine - from a reliability point of view, cycling things is something you try and avoid - but I drove a manual Mercedes B Class with stop start and I was surprised that it was completely seamless in use.
|
|
Seems to be naturally better suited to manuals than automatics. On those occasions when you know you'll want to pull away smartly, you can just keep the clutch down and the car in gear as you would in a non-SS car. An automatic makes the decision for you, although the MB one I drove seemed to work well enough - and the respite from the din of a poorly-insulated four-cylinder diesel engine was welcome. Like MM, I think it's just a bit of 'new normality', and the objections to it are mostly emotional and irrational.
|
Was this another driver who was listening to an iPod? I see them every day.
I don't see how this could have been anything but driver error, of basically not pressing STOP, and I don't believe the stop/start logic would ever restart once the seatbelt is removed, P engaged or door opened, it certainly doesn't on Audis..
Last edited by: sooty tailpipes on Fri 14 Jun 13 at 18:53
|
>> I think it's just a bit of 'new normality', and the objections to it are mostly emotional and irrational
This. If you really, really don't like s/s then don't try and activate it - i.e. don't purposefully "engage" neutral in a manual when stationary. It's completely seamless in operation and can only improve economy/emissions, there are that many other sops to the environment on a modern engine that the chances of one of those failing before a component of the s/s system lets the driver down are quite high.
I don't like MB's autobox setup though - I'm averse to sitting on the brakes when stationary both out of courtesy to the driver behind and for the sake of my brake discs.
Last edited by: Dave_TiD on Sat 15 Jun 13 at 22:24
|
|
My old X1 had Stop/Start - it was seamless (when it worked) - mine had a longstanding fault - the radio had a habit of turning itself on randomly, which meant that the voltage parameters for Stop/Start to operate weren't met on occasions. BMW eventually believed me that this was the cause of the problem and swapped the radio - worked well. My car wasn't keyless so the scenario described could not have happened. If the hanbrake was on and the car in gear (or in Park on an auto) it just could not have happened. It sounds like the dumbo driving it left it in neutral, the parking brake off - so when he stopped the car, the S/S stopped the engine and as his key was still in range so it is possible it fired up again. Sounds like he didn't comply with basic driving skills to me.
|
|
Sounds like BMW didn't do the human factors testing properly to me.
|
>> ...My car wasn't keyless so the scenario described could not have happened. If
>> the hanbrake was on and the car in gear (or in Park on an auto)
>> it just could not have happened.
>>
Which is exactly what happens with my wife's car. Not a keyless car, car in gear when stopped causing the cut-out and only when applying the handbrake causes the engine to restart. BMW obviously will not have the same system as Citroën but I can confirm the car will restart when the handbrake is applied. Luckily we both have the failover of a key.
|
|
Is it stop-start or start-stop? Which came first, the chicken or ...........?
|
|
I can confirm this is not possible, at least on an F30. As soon as the driver's door is opened with the engine automatically stopped, the steering lock engages and the car shuts down.
|
|
Never tried that on the X1 - that makes sense.
|
Tried in in the Passat yeterday, releasing drivers seat belt or opening the drivers door drops the stop start (with engine stopped.
Closing the door or refastening the seatbelt resets ready to go.
The original instance wasn't one of these drivers who doesn't like wearing a seat belt and has it fastened behind him was it? That would fool the VW system.
Last edited by: IJWS14 on Mon 17 Jun 13 at 08:38
|
>> The original instance wasn't one of these drivers who doesn't like wearing a seat belt
>> and has it fastened behind him was it? That would fool the VW system.
>>
It might not - the seat occupancy detector would know there's no-one in the seat. It might not be a factor in the stop/start system though.
|
|
It was opening the door that did it on mine. As soon as the door popped off its catch, the rev counter dropped from its READY position to OFF indicating the stop/start system was no longer active, and the steering lock clicked in. Undoing the belt didn't make any difference, by itself at least.
|
BMW - The perils of stop-start and keyless entry - Armel Coussine
