>> If only everything in life was as reliable as a Mitsubishi Lancer.
>>
>> :-))
So you sold it.
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I have a feeling that Japanese petrol cars of the '90's were at a pinnacle of reliability. Maybe Mercedes too.
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>>I have a feeling that Japanese petrol cars of the '90's were at a pinnacle of reliability.<<
Yeah, I'd go along with that.
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>>So you sold it.
Most Japanese cars are reliable but, there are more toys to go wrong on the Forester.
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>> >>So you sold it.
>>
>> Most Japanese cars are reliable but, there are more toys to go wrong on the
>> Forester.
You'll be fine dog. Just think of all the extra fun you're having driving it.
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>> Just think of all the extra fun you're having driving it.
It certainly is FUN corax, as good as the Lancer was, it couldn't be called fun, by any measure of the word ;)
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>> It certainly is FUN corax, as good as the Lancer was, it couldn't be called
>> fun, by any measure of the word ;)
Picked mine up today. I was worried that I might have made a poor decision, but I love it. It has cloth seats actually, not leather like the one I linked to, but I prefer cloth anyway.
It's great - very relaxing. 80mph seems to be it's natural cruising speed on the motorway, and I can't hear the engine. More unrefined in terms of wind and road noise compared with my Avensis but it's far more fun. It's good to drive fast or slow. Great all round visibility and driving position. Seats a little board like for my liking but I'm a fussy so 'n so. Might look at fitting WRX seats in the future.
I find this 2.0XT has ample torque. God know's what the 2.5 is like. Well I do know. Lygonos has told me :)
One fly in the ointment - the brakes are bad. I have a pulsing under the foot when using them and a scraping noise with the window open. I'll get my man on to it straight away. The brake discs could be warped and there might be no pads left, or there might be a sticking caliper. It stops but I'm not confident. There seems to be quite a bit of stuff in the history about brake problems, so it's something to concentrate on.
Apart from that though it's great.
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>> I have a pulsing under the foot when using them and a scraping noise with the window open. I'll get my man on to it straight away. The brake discs could be warped
Noise under braking and metal-to-metal? FFS corax! The pads are shot and the discs will go next if they haven't gone already!
Don't go anywhere until it's fixed unless you really have to. Doesn't take long for gouges in a disc to make it too thin, or overheat it and make it warp. Anyway it will be scored and either you have to live with shorter pad life or pay for skimming if it's still possible... I'd go for option 1.
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>> Noise under braking and metal-to-metal? FFS corax! The pads are shot and the discs will
>> go next if they haven't gone already!
Hahaha! If you haven't heard from me by tomorrow around this time I may be in the midst of a smoking burning wreck down the side of the embankment somewhere on the A12 :)
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>> Apart from that though it's great.
>>
Oh fiddlesticks...stop rubbing it in you lot will you with your bloomin Foresters, me jealous not a chance...does that turbo whistle gently, go on milk it while i'm green..:-)
Sounds good C, bet you have a partially sticking caliper.
The Mitsi Outy had exactly that and i changed all the pads and fluid as the stopping effort was poor, once bedded in the car now stops progressively and all is now well.
Main dealer FSH here too so the brakes hadn't seen good lubrication maintenance, probably had pints of brake cleaner squirted in the general direction though.
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>> Main dealer FSH here too so the brakes hadn't seen good lubrication maintenance, probably had
>> pints of brake cleaner squirted in the general direction though.
My man is good on brakes - I think that the previous owner lived by the sea, so it could well be corrosion. Anyway, it'll be done very soon.
It's early days but I'd recommend you try one GB.
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2 new Bosch discs plus pads on the back of my Foz - fitted myself.
Very easy job if it wasn't for corroded and partially rounded bolts (one 14mm bolt needed a 13mm socket hammered on to get it off) - my advice is only use 6-sided sockets rather than 12-sided to reduce roundage...
Parts from t'interweb not expensive - £50-60 for a pair of branded discs, £20-30 for set of branded pads (delivered).
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>> Parts from t'interweb not expensive - £50-60 for a pair of branded discs, £20-30 for
>> set of branded pads (delivered).
Yes, I noticed that Lygonos. Better than £150 for a pair of discs and £130 for the pads from Subaru.
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Euro Car Parts have an "Up to 50% off" promotion on at the moment. It probably means that one obscure part is 50% off, but I got a set of pads at 25% off recently.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 6 May 13 at 09:30
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Watch out for some of the stuff sold on ebay - there are a lot of fake brake pads out there.
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>> Watch out for some of the stuff sold on ebay - there are a lot
>> of fake brake pads out there.
>>
My pads were Pagid from Euro Car Parts, I would only buy parts from a reputable factor.
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>>I would only buy parts from a reputable factor
Ultimately even High Street factors look to buy from the cheapest suppliers but these guys don't appear to be fly-by-night types - discs certainly looked genuine with the Bosch data stamped around the outer margin of the disc, and the pads included looked good with proper packaging and data sheet.
At the end of the day everyone is at risk of buying counterfeit - even the drugs you get from a chemist, or the notes you buy them with.
myworld.ebay.co.uk/aceparts_uk/&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2754
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>> 2 new Bosch discs plus pads on the back of my Foz - fitted myself.
>> Parts from t'interweb not expensive - £50-60 for a pair of branded discs, £20-30 for
>> set of branded pads (delivered).
Which website did you order your brakes from Lygonos?
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>> Main dealer FSH here too so the brakes hadn't seen good lubrication maintenance, probably had
>> pints of brake cleaner squirted in the general direction though.
As I said, there's evidence in the history of the front discs being replaced twice within a very short time frame. Just had a look and there is very little pad on the fronts and a badly swept area on the discs, the rear discs don't look as if they are being used at all, and negligible pad on those too. It all points to sticking or seized calipers.
Makes you wonder what the hell the main dealers do, I'm glad I don't go there. They must have known they were sticking, why not charge the owner for some shiny new ones if they weren't competent enough to free the old ones up - they charged enough for everything else. Thank god I can get the parts relatively cheaply.
I'm still happy with the rest of the car. The back is nice and high so no problem with the expensive self levelling shocks, 4 Vredestein Quadrac tyres were purchased last Christmas (at high cost no doubt for that time of year). They were over inflated as usual. I just need to give it an oil and filter change with a good synthetic, change the brake fluid at the same time as sorting the brakes, and that'll be it for this year.
Last edited by: corax on Mon 6 May 13 at 12:00
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This independent Subaru 'specialist' could come in handy if need be:
scoobybits.co.uk/home.htm
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Mine is naturally aspirated plus TC auto corax, but it still marches on when I put the pedal to the metal.
I covered over 200 miles driving it back from Havant last week and found it much more comfortable than the Lancer, the seats are really supportive and include lumber support for the ole back.
I was a tad disheartened on opening the bonnet and not seeing a nice clean engine bay like I had in the Lancer, but then I realised it was due to a Waxoil type rustproofing which is 'supposed' to be guaranteed for 12 years.
Good cars corax, v/good in fact, I love the purposeful sound it makes when I start it up in the morning :)
My Lancer has had that pulsing-under-the-foot business of late, but the main dealer checked (and measured) the pads/discs and pronounced them okay when I had it serviced recently.
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>
>> My Lancer has had that pulsing-under-the-foot business of late, but the main dealer checked (and
>> measured) the pads/discs and pronounced them okay when I had it serviced recently.
It was the inside font disks near the hub. The Lancer is over endowed on overall brake disk / pad area and combine that with slightly sticky pads means not all the disk area gets swept, and you get a rust ring build up. Wears a groove in the pad.
Had the dealer taken off the disks they would have found it.
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>>The Lancer is over endowed on overall brake disk / pad area and combine that with slightly sticky pads means not all the disk area gets swept, and you get a rust ring build up
I did notice the pulsating diminished somewhat after my 200 mile drive to Havant last week, with all the braking etc., car isn't used enough really I suppose.
>>Had the dealer taken off the disks they would have found it.
Say n'more!
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Hmm.. depends on how you take the meaning.
Old car's needed looking after, properly serviced points and carbed cars are fine.
The current crop of cars don't need a fraction of the amount of fettling, but when they go wrong, you need very deep pockets. (and a tow truck)
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The secret of a reliable car in years past was not having the word "British" in the manufacturers name.
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Indeed swiss. (And don't moan ON)
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Sun 5 May 13 at 11:06
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>> Indeed swiss. (And don't moan ON)
>>
Me, Moan?
I learned the lesson quickly, A 1960s MINI which was a delight if you kept up with the fettling, the one that cured me of "British" cars was an Allegro estate, no amount of care would make that reliable.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 5 May 13 at 11:21
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>> Hmm.. depends on how you take the meaning.
Quite. But like for like I meant.
ie, a new Carina or Accord back in the Nineties I would expect would have been more reliable run over 12 years/ 150k (or even 250k) than the equivalent today doing the same. I could well be wrong though!
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> ie, a new Carina or Accord back in the Nineties I would expect would have
>> been more reliable run over 12 years/ 150k (or even 250k) than the equivalent today
>> doing the same. I could well be wrong though!
I wonder how much of that was due to relative simplicity and typical for many years Japanese good overall design where cars were made to be maintainable reliable and durable, not just to suit cheap production.
Those cars once in second/third owner hands would probably come under owner or local indy servicing, either way it would have been simple cheap servicing and repairs without needing expensive diagnostic and programming equipment often make specific...thats not to decry the obvious engineering integrity of the product that could stand a good amount of neglect where servicing wasn't regular.
Still maybe a little old fashioned in some ways but none the worse for that, you don't fix it till its broke if you have any sense at all.
Interesting video interview with HJ and Andrew English, low key and not the greatest quality feed but well worth the time to view, has rekindled my consideration of hybrids which confess i'd put on the back burner, thanks Dog.
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>>Interesting video interview with HJ and Andrew English, low key and not the greatest quality feed but well worth the time to view
"My favourite car is the one I'm driving at the moment" ;)
Yes, it's well worth watching that video if y'all haven't already done so, I tried to watch it this morning when I started this thread but I couldn't get it to load, so I Percy Veered.
I found the explanation of how a DPF worked interesting as I hadn't read up on them before being I am a petrol head.
I do wish they would stop calling him Honest though, he is Honest John, John, or Peter!
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Many cars are made from the same generic parts these days, the manufacturer buy in the components for electronics, sensors, braking systems, engine management, injection, etc. so in theory reliability should be similar across the modern cars. A duff batch of parts could in theory effect several makes of car.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sun 5 May 13 at 12:10
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Modern cars are much more relaible.
It's only the car dealers and mechanics( who have not kept up to date) who cause problems. Fancy training people to act on what a computer tells you and not use your brain.. Reminds me of NHS Direct.
This of course excludes Peugeot who are incapable of building a modern car well - see their record for reliability... But then, they are French...
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Been driving for 37 years. Had the long term use of, or co-owned, or owned 44 cars.
I've had 19 occasions when it was necessary to avail myself of a tow truck. 16 of them were for the same car.
Anyone wanna guess what it was?
:-)
By and large the other 40 were ok, not to say they didn't occasionally have niggly faults but nothing which stopped them moving and functioning as cars.
The other 3 which disgraced themselves by the way, were a 1989 BMW 3 series which packed in at 17.00 hrs on Christmas Eve, A 1992 Rover 800 which expired at midnight somewhere on the lower reaches of the M6 and my Westfield which decided to go on strike in Avignon on a Saturday afternoon. It didn't like the heat.
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>> It's only the car dealers and mechanics( who have not kept up to date) who cause problems. Fancy training people to act on what a computer tells you and not use your brain..
I wish all technicians (mechanics aren't seen in dealerships any more) had your ability.
It must be really fantastic to be able to see inside control units and find the fault.
In real life, due to electronics controlling most systems in today's vehicles the first stage of diagnostics HAS TO BE reading fault codes.
That is, unless a conrod is visible ....
:-)
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>> In real life, due to electronics controlling most systems in today's vehicles the first stage
>> of diagnostics HAS TO BE reading fault codes.
Yes but the second stage IS NOT changing the black box that spat out the fault code.
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Reminds me of when I had my VW Transporter 2.1 Auto, I had to have a new brain and it cost me over £500 :(
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The only toy that ever goes wrong with any regularity on the Forester is the heated seat.
And once they fail they usually stay failed as the wee membrane/element that goes inside the seat costs over £200 from the dealer.
(Mine failed under warranty).
Otherwise they seem to be properly made toys - the sunroof seems particulary well made.
With respect to mechanicals, the self-levelling rear shocks can succumb to hard work after 6+ years and as the dealers charge £800+ to fit a pair, lesser non-self levellers are often fitted which leads to the back sagging an inch or two.
There are decent aftermarket spring/shock combos that get around this issue such as the ones made by Pedders.
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>> The only toy that ever goes wrong with any regularity on the Forester is the heated seat.
>>
>> And once they fail they usually stay failed as the wee membrane/element that goes inside
Merc's seat occupancy sensors often go too.
Most often caused by people kneeling or supporting their body weight on a hand resting on the seatbase.
Possible that the heating elements are damaged in the same way.
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>>The only toy that ever goes wrong with any regularity on the Forester is the heated seat.
I've been using that every day since I got the car, what a luxury compared to the un-heated leather seats in the Lancer!
The Forester has been regularly serviced by the main dealer in Havant, Hants. who I bought it from, it's had a new cambelt and 4 new ditchfinders fitted recently, nice car, we like it :)
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You'll be needing some of those tweedy clothes from that other thread now then Doggo !
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>>You'll be needing some of those tweedy clothes from that other thread now then Doggo !
Eh, this is Cornwall, Humph, I certainly made a few well-dressed salesman smile in Hampshire last week when I turned up in my Sketchers boots, hiking socks rolled down to the ankles and knee length shorts with milk white legs,
could be why they very carefully checked the £4000 in cash I handed over!
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>>4 new ditchfinders fitted recently
Runway certainly appear as cheap as it gets on blackcircles.com.
Now my hobby Foz looks like it probably won't self destruct in the next few weeks I'm looking at replacing the tyres.
Currently has a Hifly and Pirelli P6 on the front, and a Yokoham Geolander and Pirelli P6 on the rear (with a Triangle on the spare). All are from different vintages, are roughly 4-5mm tread and the rear P6 seems to have a very slow leak from around the base of the valve.
215/60 VR 16 not the commonest size, and usually I'd go straight for a Michelin/Goodyear tyre but blackcircles are doing Kumho KH17s at 83 quid each, and t'interweb suggest they are fairly decent tyres.
The S-Turbo isn't monumentally powerful so I think I'll go for the Koreans this time.
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>>Runway certainly appear as cheap as it gets on blackcircles.com.
Made in China I believe, they seem perfectly okay at the moment so I'll see how they perform in the wet, and how they cope with my un-treated lane in winter.
I've seen a lot of Kumho tyres on 4x4's I've been looking at recently, Xtrail, Grand Vitara, RAV4, CRV etc.
I'd have no qualms about buying them.
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They were factory fit to my Focus.
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"Kumho tyres are based in South Korea. Kumho Tyre export tyres worldwide, and have a global network of sales organizations. It has been selected to supply original equipment for vehicle brands such as Chevrolet, Chrysler, Hyundai, Kia, Mercedes, Mitsubishi, Smart, Ssangyong and VW".
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I have been fitting Kumhos on my Mondeo for several years and have had no problems.
Now have replaced the Pirellis on the X type ( Rated for more than twice the NSL ).
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If Kumho are good enough for a Mercedes they should be good enough for a Ford.
;-)
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>> Yes but the second stage IS NOT changing the black box that spat out the
>> fault code.
>>
Correct.
Unless that is the faulty item..
... which it quite often is.
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No its not, its more often the wiring and the sensors. As in all electromechanical things.
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>> No its not, its more often the wiring and the sensors. As in all electromechanical
>> things.
>>
Oh, of course it is.
Which is why, fitting a new control unit fixes the 'wiring fault'.
(Oh, by the way, a decent tech checks the wiring, and connectors BEFORE condemning the control unit.)
A faulty sensor normally puts up a different fault code BTW.
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Most of us, excepting perhaps a few such as Espace owners, have forgotten what unreliable is.
In a way though, all cars have turned into Japanese ones. In the days of Viva HAs and Mk 1 Escorts, the Japanese gave us super reliable cars that almost never went wrong, but when they did, the bits cost a fortune compared with the domestic product. Now nearly all cars are like that.
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SQ
>> A faulty sensor normally puts up a different fault code BTW.
Yes I know it does, doesn't stop the useless "techs" changing the control unit tho. And I am sure you are aware that external wiring and sensors can bring up spurious "control unit" fault codes.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 5 May 13 at 21:37
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>> wiring and sensors
The VW 411 stopped dead just down the road on the way to France at 5 in the morning once. Yaroo! But there was a connector that had let go somewhere in the cat's cradle of little electronic wires running its electronically controlled fuel injection. Fortunately they were lying on top of the engine so it was easy to spot. Alhamdulillah!
These experiences shorten one's life I am convinced.
Iffy lambda sensors can be a bit of a pain. They and all their wiring connections tend to get cooked and brittle.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Sun 5 May 13 at 19:58
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The Reno Master always included the Glow plugs as a fault regardless. You need a mechanic with hearing and sense to see around the problem. My bloke has never been wrong yet. Old skool see.
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>> Iffy lambda sensors can be a bit of a pain. They and all their wiring
>> connections tend to get cooked and brittle.
>>
Depends on the car. I had one go on my old V8 Disco. Terrible running, pull plugs. Bank 1 looks ok, bank 2 obviously running rich. A few moments of thought came up with lambda sensor as the only real possibility, so I replaced the one on that side. Sorted.
Having two banks of cylinders with an exhaust on each and thus each with its own lambda sensor makes diagnosis very simple......
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>> >> A faulty sensor normally puts up a different fault code BTW.
>>
>> Yes I know it does, doesn't stop the useless "techs" changing the control unit tho.
>> And I am sure you are aware that external wiring and sensors can bring up spurious "control unit" fault codes.
Yes I do.
Which is why I wrote... '(Oh, by the way, a decent tech checks the wiring, and connectors BEFORE condemning the control unit.) '
Zero, please learn to read other peoples posts, before trying to prove yourself superior, it will prevent you looking a prat.
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Yeah whatever.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 5 May 13 at 22:53
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>> www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/festival-of-motoring/10031645/Are-modern-cars-less-reliable.html
My experience is that each generation of cars is more reliable than previous generations.
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>> My experience is that each generation of cars is more reliable than previous generations.
>>
For the first three years then ??
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I am sure the manufacturers use components with the minimum durability they can get away with, after all they want to sell you another car.
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That's not my experience of Japanese cars O/N, which possibly explains why they are so reliable - especially the ones actually Made in Japan like the Lancer and (hopefully) the Forester :)
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Made in Japan like the Lancer and (hopefully) the Forester :)
>>
There you go again, you and that Corax troublemaker, i've been perusing Foresters for sale thismorning thanks to you two.:-)
My experience of Japanese cars has been good with superb component design and reliability when compared to some other countries efforts.
Mazda let the side down badly it must be said with the Diesel DPF overfuelling debacle...thats not to say that the Japanese don't make the odd mistake, but they spectacularly failed to stand by their product and look after their customers, whilst Toyota have quietly set the industry standard in customer aftercare by behaving honourably.
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I think Mazda are closely linked to Ford, It could be the reason for Mazdas standard of customer service.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 6 May 13 at 10:59
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>>Mazda let the side down badly it must be said with the Diesel DPF
The Outlander with the MIVEC diesel (not the PSA versions) operate the same way. Service interval is reduced from 12,000 to 9,000 miles. Oil level rises between services - so far, well within the limit marks.
Worth checking it hasn't been overfilled to start with I think. You can smell the diesel in it too.
Haven't had any DPF-related problem yet - the engine picture lit up about two days before the last service which made me groan, but apparently because the fuel filter needed changing. Whether that was just time-based I don't know - it was a year since the previous service.
Refitted the summer wheels yesterday - amazed it's not tipping down today.
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>> The Outlander with the MIVEC diesel (not the PSA versions) operate the same way.
Not so bad when you are aware of the possibility, at least you can keep an eye on it, i'd HAVE to slip in a half way oil change if i had one, couldn't bear the possibility of fuel degraded oil.
Not too sure about Mitsi's long term customer back up TBH and this may well be the one and only Mitsi, the mk 1 Outy we have has the well known problem with plastic headlight lenses cracking up, Mitsi have never offered any help outside of warranty and still want £354 a side for new headlamps, i would rather scrap the car than pay someone good money to design carp.
Other than though it as a very good motor that does everything we ask and is easy in a typically Japanese thoughtful way to work on.
>> Refitted the summer wheels yesterday - amazed it's not tipping down today.
And i washed both cars which usually brings torrents within the hour..;)
My barmy Mrs use the car wash gun yesterday to water in some plants she'd just planted, just shows how often she washes the cars cos she shot herself with the jet straight down the cleavage by using it facing her, told you she was dangerous.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Mon 6 May 13 at 11:35
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>> she shot herself with the jet straight down the cleavage by using it facing her, told you she was dangerous.
Strange creatures women, my missus admitted last week she'd never used the variable intermittent w/wiper control on the Lancer, and we owned the car for 2 years!
The amount of times I said to her about how and when to use them too, doh!
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>> I am sure the manufacturers use components with the minimum durability they can get away
>> with, after all they want to sell you another car.
>>
All the automotive manufacturers I worked for strove to get maximum durability using the latest technology.
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Didnt you work for the Rootes group? I think they failed.
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The bean counters will always win.
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Nothing, I say nothing, is less reliable than my 1996 Vauxhall Vectra. My experience is that cars are in fact significantly more reliable than they were 20 years ago and beyond comparison with cars during the 1970s.
IIRC, when he changed it, my Dad's then 6 year old 1975N Escort was rusty, the alternator failed at 11 months old, the steering rack at 13 months, the clutch at 2 years, it needed welding at 4 years old and this was considered normal in those days.
My 1990 Nova SRi needed a new heater matrix at 13 months old (for which I had to pay), my 1991 Cavalier visited the dealer regularly and was rusting at 1 year old, my 1993 ZX's central locking went crazy at 11 months old, I can go on.
By contrast, my 2009 330d had nothing fail in 23K miles/18 months and I imagine continues to give good service, our extremely complicated Golf VI twincharger-DSG has so-far only suffered a cup-holder failure although I don't wish to tempt fate....
The use of software, sensors and actuators to replace mechanical components should bring benefits in terms of diagnostics and ease of repair because (I would argue) they simplify things, the fact that people's experiences (or perceptions) suggest otherwise deserves a fuller discussion.
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Older cars last longer :)
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>> Older cars last longer :)
The older they get, the less they last.
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>> >> Older cars last longer :)
>>
>> The older they get, the less they last.
>>
Not in my experience.
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>> The use of software, sensors and actuators to replace mechanical components should bring benefits in
>> terms of diagnostics and ease of repair because (I would argue) they simplify things, the
>> fact that people's experiences (or perceptions) suggest otherwise deserves a fuller discussion.
I think you are right to say that technology has simplified the fault finding process, but I think there's a misconception among the wider public, and even many less capable service departments that it replaces the technician when in actual fact the exact opposite is true. With a modern vehicle, the ability of the person driving the kit is absolutely critical to achieving an accurate diagnosis and repair.
In my experience, these skills are not as commonly found as they should be. I had a fault with my old Peugeot 306 which did not log a fault code. The car was repeatedly returned to me with "no fault found", leading me to surmise that the "technician" drove the car into the workshop, plugged in a lead, pushed a few buttons, shrugged his shoulders, unplugged the lead, and put the car back in the car park. It took eleven visits before someone prepared to do more than the computer told him, located the offending stepper motor and fixed the fault.
I've also seen a Vauxhall dealership replace a multitude of sensors and even an ECU when the actual fault was an intermittent break in the engine wiring loom, found and repaired within the hour by an independent with far less sophisticated kit, but with the correct approach and experience.
If a fault code reader says there is an issue with the output from a sensor, for example, it could be:
1) The sensor itself
2) The wiring associated with it
3) A knock on symptom from a fault in a different (and often apparently unrelated) part of the system.
4) The ECU itself not reporting the fault correctly
5) A good old mechanical fault.
6) Two or more of the above.
The perception is that the code read is the actual diagnosis, when in fact all it does is tell the tech that one or more parameters within the system are outside of their expected range. Why this is the case is not among the information, and is where the tech and his or her methodical onward testing using the right tools in the right way is critical. Depending on the fault code, they may want to get an oscilloscope on the circuit and see what the sensor is actually reporting, versus what the ECU is "seeing", they might want to check integrity of wiring, mechanical faults etc etc.
The number of times I have seen techs jump to 1) and fail to fix the fault is not funny. Equally, heaven help you if you take a modern car in somewhere with a fault that is not logging a fault code on the system. This was an eleven-visit farce on my old Pug 306, and significantly dented my faith in a car which, in reality, had one fault that nobody seemed to know how to fix.
Too many garages do diagnostics badly, and the big glass palaces are just as bad as the indies.
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A friend's daughter was apparently having trouble with her BMW Mini "its making a strange noise".
He was updating me on the tale. BMW said they didn't know what the noise was, but it wasn't doing any harm and to take it back if anything happened.
At that point she drove past and I immediately told him the big ends were going. back it went the next day to BMW who finally agreed it was the big ends.
Now to be fair to BMW they could not have done more. Huge amount spent on repairs and a written warranty for the next 12 months (on a 4/5 year old car) and a written apology and financial consideration.
But, that to one side, apparently the problem was that none of the technicians or whatever they are in the BMW garage knew what failing big ends sounded like.
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>>none of the technicians or whatever they are in the BMW garage knew what failing big ends sounded like.
There are two ways to take that.
1) The technicians are a bit useless
or
2) They don't often hear failing big ends on the cars they see
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e are two ways to take that.
>>
>> 1) The technicians are a bit useless
>>
>> or
>>
>> 2) They don't often hear failing big ends on the cars they see
2/ is pretty rare, haven't heard it for years till I heard it recently on my lads Saab. Unmistakeable.
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Or
3) They are/were the younger techs and have never heard one.
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>> Or
>>
>> 3) They are/were the younger techs and have never heard one.
The problem is (as NoFM2R points out) that not knowing what the noise was just sent the owner away rather than find out.
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That's a fair point, although I'm in the 'never heard it before' camp so I don't know how loud, serious it sounds or if it sounds like something else less serious. Although it could be similar to NC's points ie tying up a ramp for a strange noise isn't likely.
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>>Unmistakeable.
If, and only if you've heard it before.
The lack of interesting faults, and the predominance of servicing / brake jobs was one of the things that helped me leave the trade 20 years ago.
For any profit orientated garage, fault finding jobs where cars spend hours having their wiring looms checked for intermittent faults are anathema.
The technician at best gets a time taken rate with no scope for bonus - or as Vauxhall brought in a flat half hour time allowance to find any electrical fault under warranty. There was absolutely no incentive to find a fault - plugging in, getting a code, and fitting a sensor represented the quickest way to get back to a job where some bonus could be earnt.
As I was single at the time, and didn't have family and mortgage worries, I wasn't massivley worried about bonus, but, would get hassle from the service manager for not making enough hours for the workshop when I was fault finding.
For those mechanics who did have families, I can well understand why they didn't used to get involved with tracing faults, but would get the cars back out into the car park ASAP.
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>> >>Unmistakeable.
>>
>> If, and only if you've heard it before.
I could not tell you what it sounds like.
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>> If, and only if you've heard it before.
What, donk-donk-donk speeding and slowing with engine speed, at first disappearing at higher crankshaft speeds but getting progressively worse, louder when the engine is under load, especially at low engine speeds, and quieter when it's on the overrun? I'm certain I knew what it was the first time I heard it, likewise the tap-tap-tap of a small end. It's usually only one bearing after all. They tend not to all break up at the same time.
It's true though that one doesn't hear it often these days. Engines seem to be made to much closer tolerances than they were... Japanese production engineering, generalised.
It's amusing to hear N_C regretting the passing of cars as they used to be. Usually he says modern ones are better (as they are of course in most ways).
'Interesting faults' indeed! Tee-hee! Not that I disagree of course.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Tue 7 May 13 at 17:05
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>>Engines seem to be made to much closer tolerances than they were.
Not really - that's just oil company BS. The nominal clearances in main and big end bearings haven't changed much in years.
>>regretting the passing of cars as they used to be.
In and odd sense - modern cars are boringly reliable - only someone for whom the rose tinted rear view mirrors are deeply coloured would even think the question of the reliability of modern cars worth asking.
Yes, I'm thinking of cars failing their first MOTs, I'm thinking of engines reaching 100,000 being something to remark on, I'm thinking of the days when lifting cylinder heads off for decokes and vale problems was routine, when mechanics knew how to shrink fit flywheel ring gears, how to adjust crown wheel and pinions by looking at the markings left by the teeth on some marking blue, etc, etc When most garages had their own equipment for re-boring cylinder blocks in-situ. When most towns had easy access to engine reconditioners with crank grinding equipment - you need to travel to larger towns and cities for that now. Most of that list would leave any mechanic qualified in the last 10 years bemused if not confused.
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>> that's just oil company BS. The nominal clearances in main and big end bearings haven't changed much in years.
There have to be clearances of course, but what would your explanation be for the greater - much greater - longevity of modern engines N_C? Perhaps the key word is 'nominal'. Clearances can be 'nominal' meaning all over the place, or actually more or less correct. Is that it? Because there has to be a reason.
And surely, by the way, oil company BS would say the clearances were as iffy as usual but the new product would mean it didn't matter so much?
I did once rebuild a rebored engine from the ground up - indeed on the floor of a dark garage. But it was a Lada lump, and lump is the word. I didn't have the skill to get away with it with a Skoda, alas.
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>>what would your explanation be for the greater - much greater - longevity of modern engines
Superior lubrication (technically and oil quality) and superior combustion (injection/ignition stuff) causing less washing off of lubricants during engine warm up.
The "most engine wear happens after you turn the key" stuff is more to do with the combustion acids on the metal, and oil film being washed away, than by unlubricated metal-on-metal contact.
This is why bores rarely seem to wear out, while valve gear can be more susceptible to becoming noisy (ie. a high nileage engine is more likely to have valvetrain wear than bore wear as it has benefitted relatively less from lubrication advances).
I think.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Tue 7 May 13 at 20:16
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>> combustion acids on the metal, and oil film being washed away, than by unlubricated metal-on-metal contact.
Yes, the death of the dreaded choke and the better mixtures and timing provided by electronics will certainly keep the upper cylinders round and small instead of oval and sloppy, with a lip. But we were talking about the bottom end, big end bearings. Why don't they go any more, or hardly? There has to be a reason.
Choke abuse cost a lot of motorists a lot of money. I used to tell them, but did they listen? No, they wanted their cars to become even more horrible as quickly as possible.
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>>But we were talking about the bottom end, big end bearings. Why don't they go any more, or hardly? There has to be a reason
I would wager it is a combination of the same factors - superior lubrication (mechanically and oil technology) and less fuel dilution and crap in the oil due to superior combustion factors.
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>>Choke abuse cost a lot of motorists a lot of money.
>>I used to tell them, but did they listen? No, they wanted their cars to become even more horrible as quickly as possible.
>>
IIRC the instructions for starting a " modern" car are basically just turn the key.
I still hear many cars that immediately they start the driver gives it some wellie just like the old days :-(
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>>but what would your explanation be for the greater - much greater - longevity
Better, much better engine oil additive packages. Much better control of friction and wear during the boundary and mixed lubrication regimes which exist in the start up period before hydrodynamic conditions are fully developed.
The ratio between clearance and journal diameter has to remain within sensible limits for hydrodynamic lubrication to work. The hydrodynamic pressure distributions have been reasonably well modelled mathematically since the work of Ocvirk in the 50's, and beyond a little tinkering and complication they remain valid and useful today.
However, here's the real source of the BS. People talk of improved tolerances. What that means, and what the public interpret it to mean are, of course, two different things.
When making an engineering change, you can tighten the tolerance and increase the nominal clearance at the same time.
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>>superior combustion
An excellent point!, yes!, and a happy result of closed loop electronic fuelling control.
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>> you can tighten the tolerance and increase the nominal clearance at the same time.
Perhaps it's the clearances that need to be consistent instead of all over the place. There has to be a reason why big ends used to go and don't so much now. Better lubricants can't be the main reason although they must make some difference. It's something to do with greater consistency in the machining of parts I think. Robot not capstan operator.
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>>Better lubricants can't be the main reason
Why not?
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To add a little to my question, when the crank is turning quickly, and hydrodynamic lubrication is established, the ONLY parameter of the oil which matters is the viscosity. So, within reason, any old oil will do just fine.
However, it's the low speed behaviour which is problematic. Where there isn't enough oil being entrained into the narrowing gap between the shaft and the bearing to develop enough pressure* to support the load.
So, it's only under low speed conditions where there's any real scope for bearing wear. And it's the friction modifiers added to the oil which can make a real difference in these lubrication regimes.
Valve gear spends much more time operating at the boundary and mixed ends of the lubrication spectrum - and again the oil additives are especially useful here.
* this local pressure, generated by the relative motion of shaft and bearing, is MUCH higher than the oil pump pressure - all the oil pump does is make sure there is oil flowing through the bearing, the oil pressure reported on the gauge has virtually nothing to do with actually keeping shaft and bearing apart.
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>>the ONLY parameter of the oil which matters is the viscosity.
Cool. Golden syrup for my cars from now on ;-)
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>>Cool. Golden syrup for my cars from now on ;-)
With sufficient shaft speed, air makes an excellent fluid for lubricating plain bearings!
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>> So, it's only under low speed conditions where there's any real scope for bearing wear. And it's the friction modifiers added to the oil which can make a real difference in these lubrication regimes.
That's a bit more convincing. Lygonos's theory about the perfect tune under all conditions keeping the oil clean has obvious merit too. But is modern engine longevity the cumulative result of those things alone?
I remain to be fully convinced. There was a time when Japanese cars were clearly superior in this way to European ones. Then the production technology was globalised, and doubtless further improved in the process. I still think manufacturing consistency has improved and plays a big part.
Oil is very thin these days I notice. But this 5/30 isn't supposed to be put in your old Mini with its gearbox in the sump.
By the way N_C I quite agree with yr line on proper machining facilities in garages, and mechanics who actually know how cars work. It may annoy you but we are of like mind on quite a few things.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Wed 8 May 13 at 01:16
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>> >> >>Unmistakeable.
>> >>
>> >> If, and only if you've heard it before.
>>
>> I could not tell you what it sounds like.
You don't need to have heard it before, you'll know it when you hear it. Its the most distinctive sounding engine fault. its a real "WTF is that" moment.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 7 May 13 at 18:06
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>>Its the most distinctive sounding engine fault.
There are a few other faults which can sound very similar - but, you'll doubtlessly know all about them.
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>> >>Its the most distinctive sounding engine fault.
>>
>> There are a few other faults which can sound very similar -
Like?
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>>Like?
Thought you knew it all.
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Very informative answer to a genuine question.
Didn't have you down as a ****, but i was wrong about that.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 7 May 13 at 21:32
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>>Didn't have you down...
I've had you down as such... for a long time.
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Yeah whatever. But for the interest of others, perhaps you would like to tell them what other things it could be?
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 7 May 13 at 19:50
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You saving that phrase up zero? Waiting for the right moment eh? ;)
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Dynamic Dave taught me that one.
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>>perhaps you would like to tell them what other things it could be?
When I was a lad I had a single cylinder Honda enduro bike used for offroading - after kickstarting it one day it started to make a horrible knocking noise with every revolution, worse under load, a little gentler on the overrun.
Thought it was a big-end knock but on stripping the engine, the timing chain had slipped a notch and presumably the noise was a (now bent) valve whacking the piston.
Not an uncommon problem apparently as I think the chain was mainly splash-oiled.
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>> >>Its the most distinctive sounding engine fault.
>>
>> There are a few other faults which can sound very similar
I had one on my BMW. A knocking big end sound that scared the hell out of me. I took it to the workshop, and after a few listens with an engine stethoscope the verdict was - a loose spark plug!
I hadn't tightened them correctly and gas was escaping around the thread - sounds just like a knock in that confined space. That taught me to go and buy a torque wrench and do it properly. I was surprised how much more I had to tighten them as I was worried about stripping the threads, but you have to allow for the washers.
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>>That taught me to go and buy a torque wrench and do it properly
I always follow the instructions with the plug, eg. fingertight + 1/2 turn for washer plugs, or +1/8 turn for tapered seat (or whatever is specified)
By all means use a torque wrench but don't lube the threads if you're going to do that or you will overtighten them.
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>>>Unmistakeable.
>
>If, and only if you've heard it before.
Equally if, and only if, you even know what big ends are.
However, I reckon it'd have to be a pretty optimistic person who heard a big end knock and remained unconcerned about the state of their engine, even if they had no idea what it was.
Nonetheless, that wasn't really my point. My point was more aimed at problem solving approaches, or rather the lack thereof.
And that is one thing which seems to be increasingly lacking in *any* trade these days, not just the motor trade.
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>>My point was more aimed at problem solving approaches, or rather the lack thereof.
>>And that is one thing which seems to be increasingly lacking in *any* trade these days, not just the motor trade.
What's the root cause of this?
In my narrow experience of the retail motor trade, I would say that solving problems needs much more skill and is much less profitable than servicing and fitting friction parts, batteries, tyres, and exhausts.
Training is OK, but doesn't help you when you meet something you haven't seen in the classroom, so, although it's more expensive, education is what's really needed to give people the skills to investigate and find faults and problems logically.
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I agree with the question of profitability.
>>What's the root cause of this?
Many things;
Change is style of play when young
Change in range of play activities
Change in focus of education towards less practical exercises
Change in style of interaction between children
Change in need to fix/maintain stuff
And sooo much more.
But one of my bug bears is that we measure schools, the education system, children, teachers and everybody else involved in primary and secondary education by measuring classroom achievement against academic standards.
There are many, intelligent, capable people who fall foul of this obsession with measuring academic achievements.
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>> Training is OK, but doesn't help you when you meet something you haven't seen in
>> the classroom, so, although it's more expensive, education is what's really needed to give people
>> the skills to investigate and find faults and problems logically.
From what I have seen the average age of "techs" in dealers seems to be falling. I rarely see older experienced guys there who can pass on a world of experience.
Why is that? Wages? working conditions?
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"From what I have seen the average age of "techs" in dealers seems to be falling."
Thats probably an illusion - like policeman looking younger. You're just getting older.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Tue 7 May 13 at 23:18
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>> Thats probably an illusion -
Probably an illusion if you see a policeman on the street at all :-)
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>> In my narrow experience of the retail motor trade, I would say that solving problems
>> needs much more skill and is much less profitable than servicing and fitting friction parts,
>> batteries, tyres, and exhausts.
That, hits the nail firmly on the head.
In many garages today, a guy who can only do services is more highly valued (by management) than someone who can diagnose and repair faults.
>> Training is OK, but doesn't help you when you meet something you haven't seen in the classroom, so, although it's more expensive, education is what's really needed to give people the skills to investigate and find faults and problems logically.
>>
I would agree with that to a point.
There are (as touched on above) 2 extremes of 'tech' in many (most?) workshops.
The 'oil filter fitter'. loved by management.
The decent tech. One who knows how to diagnose and repair. Pretty much hated by management.
A diagnostic tech, is required to keep dealer standards.
ie you must have at least one, to fullfill franchise agreements.
They will also be on a higher basic pay than the others.
BUT... they do not reach efficiency targets..... that holy grail of a modern vehicle workshop...
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NC,
Oh I don't think they were useless, and I think they don't often hear failing big ends.
But that isn't really the issue. I'd be more concerned about the lack of problem solving techniques which kind of should start with "is it making a noise it shouldn't make"
It would appear that if there is not a code or a process for it, then they are lost - at least in this one example.
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I think in some cases they have to, I think FF reported VX had to follow a set procedure for replacing certain items when a fault code appears. Otherwise they loose out on warrenty money.
I think in other cases, training courses are important. You have to know what is going on in the system to make a good fault diagnosis.
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Lots of folks talking about the sound a failing big end makes.
Thanks to the magic of the internet, here's a video....
www.youtube.com/watch?v=kN3nCDkmJDw
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>>
>> I've also seen a Vauxhall dealership replace a multitude of sensors and even an ECU
>> when the actual fault was an intermittent break in the engine wiring loom, found and
>> repaired within the hour by an independent with far less sophisticated kit, but with the
>> correct approach and experience.
>>
>>
>> Too many garages do diagnostics badly, and the big glass palaces are just as bad
>> as the indies.
>>
This is exactly the kind of experience I had with my Vectra (mentioned in my earlier post as the most unreliable car I've ever come across). The crankshaft position sensor (IIRC) failed, the car would drop into limp-home mode regularly but 3 Vauxhall dealers were unable to see any fault codes. After pestering the lease company the car was trailer-ed to a specialist 200 miles away and the problem was resolved with a GBP15 sensor. This process took 6 months and probably 10 dealer visits. To be fair the ECU of a 1996 car probably didn't have much RAM but the Vauxhall dealers demonstrated their incompetence in many many other ways over my miserable custodianship of this awful car.
I've never even hired a GM car since, I will not buy one under any circumstances and I probably buy or lease a new car every 18 months on average. when I'm attracted to the pretty (IMHO) latest Holden Commodores I have to tell myself to get a grip.....
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Are modern cars less reliable? - Zero
