DTelegraph
tinyurl.com/cb43z34
More fuel efficient cars, people driving less / planning journeys etc.
I bet the Treasury are looking into ANother tax to hit the motorist.......
What taxes do you think the Treasury will dream up?
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I think pay per mile road taxation will come, if we want free health care, and lavish benefits, and out of control politicians, it has to be paid for.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 25 Mar 13 at 08:46
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>> I think pay per mile road taxation will come, if we want free health care,
>> and lavish benefits, and out of control politicians, it has to be paid for.
Even decent humane benefits never mind lavish.
Pay per mile or journey is one possibility.
VAT is as high as it sustainably can be. Governments of both stripes have consistently failed to grasp the 'property tax' nettle and reform/re-value for Council Tax. I'd also question whether income tax at 20p basic is going to be a runner for much longer.
European social support and American tax rates won't match.
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Propaganda and brainwashing works.
If we're going to provide healthcare housing bribes and wind turbines to half the world then the British taxpayer led proudly by the motorist is going to foot an ever increasing share of the bill.
Don't forget people bought cars the politicians encouraged them to buy, better on fuel and low or no VED.
I have expected road pricing of one form or another for many years, expect it will be a system that can monitor the proletariats movements too, not simple tolling.
The motorist is an easy target, those of who work need to get there, simple.
A constantly increasing national debt whilst those same politicians can't spend or promise more money borrowed in our names quickly enough, its only coming from one place and thats the taxpayer.
Most people continue to vote for the status quo so they must enjoy it.
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It's a fine balance though. We operate a wholesale company and have sales reps on the road. They achieve, however you cut it, better and more effective sales by visiting customers rather than sitting at desks telephoning or emailing them.
In order to do that they need to drive largish cars to carry samples. Public transport would not be an option due to the amount of luggage required. Most of them do between 30 and 40 thousand business miles a year.
As a result, travel and fuel expenses are one of our biggest overheads. That's ok because we can cover it, as things stand, and what's more, the turnover generated turns back into tax revenue for the government at many levels. The tax paid by the employees on their salaries, the tax paid on the profit made by the company, the tax paid by the retailer of the goods, the VAT paid by the end consumer etc etc...
If however, we reached a point where we couldn't afford to send out our sales people all that tax would be in danger of disappearing.
Pay per mile would be a major problem for us and would act as a condom on the spearhead of industry rather than as a tax revenue generator.
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The Law of Diminishing Returns has now made an appearance. If the Government increases the tax burden, in any shape or form, on the motorist, then this will apply even more.
I would have thought the Green Lobby would be delighted: less polluting petrol and diesel fumes to hasten the demise of mankind. Unfortunately, it is not that simple. We rely heavily on the consumer to buy goods, simply to sustain our economy. If people buy fewer cars and less fuel, this will reduce revenue for HMG, and is likely to produce a concomitant increase in unemployment.
You can't get blood out of a stone: if the Government persists in reducing disposable income by increasing taxes, then the economy is bound to suffer.
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Certainly people are reducing non essential journeys. For example, I skipped a weekend visit to nearest sea side town. I could have spent something there on rides, fish n chips etc. This will create a domino effect on economy.
The morons don't understand (or don't want to) that reducing tax burden is the best way to kick start the economy. People have been taxed so heavily that they don't have spare cash anymore.
Or they are expecting that people will spend the money anyway to avoid Cyprus style levy on savings?
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Anyone who talks about "growing the economy" is living in a different planet.
Financial services is the biggest sector of the UK economy. It is going nowhere and shrinking. And will do as long as credit contracts. As the last boom was built on excess credit, 10-15 years be required to reduce credit to normal. Meanwhile banks have huge undeclared losses on loans made in the boom years.
tinyurl.com/d5byvqx
Manufacturing is c 12% of the economy. Even it the sector grew 10%pa - which is unlikely - it ain't going to grow GDP a huge amount.
Household spend is c 64% of GDP tinyurl.com/d5byvqx
With wages growth limited, benefits being cut and inflation.. it ain't going anywhere.
What would drive economic growth is a real cut in energy costs - making everything cheaper. With green measures, it is not going to happen.
Politicians know this . They also know it means stagnation with low growth for a decade or more.
That is why Osborne can do very little - and the Labour Party don't have a realistic - sorry any - economic policy.. except borrow more.
Anyone who promises lots of growth has a magic wand.
Sorry to be so negative.
Last edited by: madf on Mon 25 Mar 13 at 10:52
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I mentioned per mile road taxation, as we already have this in the form of road fuel tax do we need another version with another layer of administration ?
Just double the fuel tax, OUCH. :-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 25 Mar 13 at 12:29
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>> I mentioned per mile road taxation, as we already have this in the form of
>> road fuel tax do we need another version with another layer of administration ?
Fuel duty is fairly crude in per mile terms. A mile at midnight on a country lane costs broadly the same as a mile on the M25 at 17:00 on Friday.
A more nuanced per mile system would apportion very different prices in the same way peak rail or air tickets do. It might also apportion a higher cost to very short journeys.
Not saying that makes per mile taxation good but those are the arguments.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 25 Mar 13 at 12:35
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>> A mile at midnight on a
>> country lane costs broadly the same as a mile on the M25 at 17:00 on
>> Friday.
>>
not so in most cars, constant 56 (say) on a country lane uses considerably less fuel on most cars than a mile stop start on Friday evening motorway rush hour
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Equally it won't be about comparable cost, it'll be about targetable revenues;
You can tax an optional, local journey only a little, but you can tax a compulsory motorway commute quite a bit more.
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>>The morons don't understand (or don't want to) that reducing tax burden is the best way to kick start the economy.
Put me down as a moron then.
If you reduce the tax burden, where does the money come from to pay for various services, including the NHS?
Perhaps we could borrow it?
It is sadly close to Madf's points; the economy has stretched itself in all the wrong ways over the last 10 - 15 years. It needs to re-balance.
It will absolutely re-balance, but not tomorrow. I have no idea if 10 years is right, seems a long time to me, but its as good a period as any.
However, its not crap for 10 years and then 10 years and 1 day its perfect. It is a gradual improvement and change from now until the point when the balance is reasonably ok - which might be 5 years.
Best thing you can do with an economy is leave it well alone. It is, by and large, a self-supporting and self-perpetuating thing. And actually a self-healing thing.
However, if your primary interest is to be a politician in charge, then you'll come up with all sorts of things which you maintain will either make the economy better or at least less bad for your supporters.
And it might, but not in the time period that you are actually in power. And then when the next lot get in, whoever they are, they will undo all that you did, and start another bunch of stuff which also won't get finished in time.
The best thing anybody could do would be to leave it alone. But that doesn't get you elected.
However, then you;d need the people in charge of all the other economies which our economy interacts with to also leave theirs alone.
And like that'll happen any time soon.
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What we need is performance related pay and pensions for politicians, unfortunately turkeys don't vote for Christmas.
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Absolutely.
Set up a review committee. Target them by their own promises, measure them by their delivery, and penalise them for each piece of misleading information.
And please may I be the arbiter?
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>> Absolutely.
>>
>> Set up a review committee. Target them by their own promises, measure them by their
>> delivery, and penalise them for each piece of misleading information.
>>
>> And please may I be the arbiter?
>>
Waste of time.
A few years in jail for Chancellors who run deficits will solve the problem...
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>> If however, we reached a point where we couldn't afford to send out our sales
>> people all that tax would be in danger of disappearing.
>>
It doesn't have to come to that Humph. The company car driver comes in two main flavours - the one who genuinely drives extensively on behalf of the company, and the one who gets a company car as part of their remuneration package. *
Tax rates can be rebalanced in favour of genuine company car drivers. There just has to be the political will to do it.
* Before anyone takes umbrage, I'm not having a go at either group.
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What will be the effect on the high street of road pricing, even more internet shopping?
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>> What will be the effect on the high street of road pricing, even more internet
>> shopping?
>>
The government won't mind that, more tax from the delivery van fuel and road price tax, paid for by the shopper of course.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 25 Mar 13 at 13:46
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>> Tax rates can be rebalanced in favour of genuine company car drivers. There just has
>> to be the political will to do it.
When I first became eligible for a company car in 1997, that's exactly how it worked. You got a discount off your company car tax bill if you did 2,500 business miles a year, with a further discount at 18,000 miles a year. It was a fair system as critical users like service engineers and salespeople, who all but lived in their cars, paid a lot less than someone who has a company car as a perk, but doesn't really need one. As it is with me now.
I'm stuck with my car until 2015, or until I leave (whichever is soonest), but I will evaluate the tax situation then and if it's unattractive, I will opt out and urn my own car. Currently, it's a not insignificant sum in tax every month, but still comfortably less than it would cost me to finance, run and maintain the same car privately. Honestly speaking, there would have to be quite a hike (and/or a significant drop in the quality of the choices available) for me to want to opt out.
Last edited by: DP on Mon 25 Mar 13 at 13:49
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"It was a fair system as critical users like service engineers and salespeople, who all but lived in their cars, paid a lot less than someone who has a company car as a perk"
Trouble was people like me with a 'perk" car would look for ways to drive the minimum mileage to avoid tax. I used to drive to our London office rather than take the train, which was easier and quicker, for that very purpose
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>> Trouble was people like me with a 'perk" car would look for ways to drive
>> the minimum mileage to avoid tax. I used to drive to our London office rather
>> than take the train, which was easier and quicker, for that very purpose
>>
Well you've made a false claim then, as commutting to and from your normal place of work does not count as 'business mileage'.
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He didn't say that the London office was his "home" office.
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"Well you've made a false claim then "
Before you make any such claim as well to check your facts.
I live and worked in Norwich. The London office was not my normal places of work.
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I generally work from home (in the north-west) and do a few long trips down south per month). The thing that still amazes me is the amount of traffic on, say, the M6 between Warrington and Birmingham, during the middle of the day.
OK, a few will be sales reps etc going to meetings, but many are older people or couples who look like married couples (ie not colleagues) and they're in cars that aren't obvious company funded cars. I wonder where on earth they're all going - there's not even an obvious shopping destination on that route.
I remain convinced that a large number of people are just driving around for the heck of it!
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>> I remain convinced that a large number of people are just driving around for the
>> heck of it!
>>
Correct, many pensioners own cars.
We often roam around the country during the week, there are too many people who work cluttering up places of interest at weekends.
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>>Correct, many pensioners own cars.
See now, that should probably be banned too. Make them all ride bikes. It'd reduce congestion, get them fitter, lower emissions, more parking spaces freed up for those driving the economy etc. Tough to argue I'd say.
:-)
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Tough to argue I'd say.
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>> :-)
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Pah! I've done my time, You just keep paying the taxes to fund my pension. :-)
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That's kind of my point though. You and the likes of you are just a cost now. A burden in fact. All very well when the economy was awash with money but times have changed. More ancient and it has to be said, more pragmatic cultures would just leave you lot out in the snow to fend for yourselves. Instead of which we're all busting our chops so you can drive around wasting precious resources, clogging up the infrastructure with no more useful objectives to achieve at the end of it than buying more beige items from the Edinburgh Woollen Mill or some bedding plants from Dobbies garden centre.
I'll be alright when I'm old. I've watched all the Ray Mears programmes and taken notes.
:-))
Last edited by: Humph D'Bout on Thu 28 Mar 13 at 15:42
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If you want to pretend to work but also have some fun while driving you could try this.
www.greatbritishsportscars.net/xj220-transit-van/
You could even get it signwritten Prim*** for old times sake. :-)
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Sorry no sympathy, with the taxes I have paid over a lifetime, (and still pay), I don't think I am at the break even point yet, I am determined to reach that point, I haven't worked it out but it must be about my mid 70s. I am still self supporting for a bit yet. :-)
I was unemployed for a total of a month during my working life, I hardly qualify as a benefit scrounger.
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More pragmatic cultures maybe have more respect for the older generation.Our generation is often the bank for the younger generation with our hard earned money.
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More pragmatic cultures might have had more respect for the older generation.We are often the bank for the younger generation with our hard earned money.>;)
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>>
>> Trouble was people like me with a 'perk" car would look for ways to drive
>> the minimum mileage to avoid tax. I used to drive to our London office rather
>> than take the train, which was easier and quicker, for that very purpose
>>
This pre-CO2 company car tax system encouraged the 'wrong' behaviours and failed to address the core benefit in kind - private miles. I used to be miffed that colleagues who chose to live many miles from the office and undertake ludicrous private mileages escaped taxation of the obvious BIK (especially when fuel cards were more tax effective). But then again, tax isn't supposed to be fair, it's supposed to raise revenues isn't it ?
I know I used to drive the extra business miles to get past 18K in the few years that my job facilitated it, when it didn't I lived with the 2.5K.
Bringing Aus into this for no good reason, current BIK (or fringe benefit) taxation encourages you to do more kilometers (private or business, it doesn't matter), doesn't penalise CO2 and the associated leasing schemes include fuel cards, this is because I suspect that they actually want to encourage you to use Australian made 3.0-4.0 V6/V8 Fords and Holdens.....
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Fuel cards are still very tax effective unless you do very low private mileage, or have a high band company car.
Assuming £1.45 a litre, and 50 mpg, I only need to do 8,300 private miles per year before I'm in profit with the fuel card. The car did 20k last year, and probably 17k of it was commuting or other private mileage.
It's only a matter of time before this, or another cash-strapped chancellor destroys it, but until then the fuel card is probably the best perk I get.
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Perhaps petrol sales are lower because more people are driving diesel cars?
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Petrol sales @ lowest volumes since 1990 - Old Navy
