Can anyone see VAG offering 10 year warranty on DSG gearboxes to European customers? Course not. But look what happened in China tinyurl.com/cz3ugox - www.autoevolution.com/news
"........Chinese customers have had problems with their DSG-equipped cars since last year. VW officials have acknowledged the faults, have apologized for the inconvenience and have increased the warranty for the gearboxes to an unprecedented 10 years and 160,000Km (100,000miles).
In February, VW recalled the affected cars, in order to install a software update, however it was not a fully-fledged recall, as they deemed it not to be a safety issue. The software updated did fix problems at first, but the over 500,000 affected cars from VW and Skoda came back to the dealerships with even more problems than before."
I assume this is not a wind-up.
EH
edited in correct link
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 20 Mar 13 at 00:43
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Wind up or not they don't need to stand by their product here, they sell like hot cakes regardless of the problems and lack of customer care, something i'm unable to fathom.
Proves you can polish a turd.
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I remember early, starry-eyed road tests of brisk DSG-equipped motors. Apparently you could rev up to the redline, drop the clutch and the car would then do this stabbed-rat act without putting a wheel wrong.
'Ah,' I couldn't help thinking, 'but how many times before some unfortunate, most likely the owner, has to cough up for a new one?'
I drove a Golf diesel with DSG quite briefly.. It was rubbish in Notting Hill afternoon traffic but perked up when booted, in a strange but pleasing way. Not for town though, unless I missed something.
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I (or more usually) SWMBO drive a Golf VI twin-charger with the DSG 'box. In fact in Aus manuals are hard to come by and are generally unloved on the second hand market so we opted for this, I'd probably have preferred a manual but there you go.....
I noticed a sticker on the car when it was delivered stating that it has had some recall-or-other (a software update) applied and I think it is this one. I see many VW owner's forum posts detailing their problems with DSG and I think that the main problem this addresses is a hesitance when making a rolling start. The scenario is something like 'off the gas due to red light or whatever at a junction then the road clears and you put your foot back on the gas'. The gearbox has helpfully disengaged drive so there's a delay while it realises you want to go again....
Ours is generally very good in my opinion, in fact when charging through the gears it's excellent, it is pretty good in stop/start traffic and the aforementioned hesitance is not too bad but does need to be 'driven round'. It's certainly no worse than my all-or-nothing 170PD Audi A4 was and is probably actually rather better.
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>> Not for
>> town though, unless I missed something.
>>
No, you are quite right AC. I had a DSG Touran for 2 years, and the vast majority of my driving is around town. Traded it in for the TC equipped Galaxy for the very reason that DSG is horrible in town traffic. But delightful on the open road. Real shame.
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How's about CVT then? - gord seems to like em so they can't be THAT bad, what's a geezer to do I wonder??
Was looking at a cashcow for 7 big ones this week, but it's a CVT and I often wake up in a cold sweat about all the Dafs I had to road-test when I'd tuned em, like.
Would a dead-in-the-wall slush box merchant be able to live with a CVT, or would all that whining drive me literally up the wall!
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>> Would a dead-in-the-wall slush box merchant be able to live with a CVT, or would
>> all that whining drive me literally up the wall!
If you were ever unfortunate enough to drive Fords CVT as fitted to Escort mk3 and similar age Fiesta you'd be put off them for life, dreadful didn't describe it, however i quite liked the simple way the DAF 55 drove, proves we're all different.
Might be worth a test drive in something like a modern Avensis where a good CVT box has been designed with adequate sound proofing in place.
No 4 cylinder NA petrol sounds quite right with a slush type box imo, always sound a bit too fussy to me where 6+ pots go on song at ideal pulling revs.
4 pot turbo engines petrol or Diesel not so bad with slush box especially if running enough fuel to get the turbo whistling gently, pleasant background noise to me, can't stand TDs that don't whistle gently.
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>>No 4 cylinder NA petrol sounds quite right with a slush type box imo
The Lancer mated to the Tiptronic (type) box is sweet, just needs a bigger engine.
My mrk 1 Focus 1.6 auto worked quite well too.
Being I've had more cars than Bad Dave has had hot women, I've also owned a couple of Honda's, a Civic and an Accord (old ones) both were Hondamatics which to me are similar to a CVT (shut it Mike!)
I must admit I didn't like the things and was glad to get back to me TC + sun and planetary gears.
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>> I often wake up in a cold sweat about all the Dafs I had
>> to road-test when I'd tuned em, like.
You really need to find a good quack Dog. No one would want that sort of torment. Could take years off your life.
:)
There was an good article in Car Mechanics mag about gearboxes and their durability. They listed a few problematic ones like the Toyota MMT and the DSG. What I found disturbing is how small the gears and bearings are now in modern manual boxes, yet they have to handle more power and torque. There was a picture of a 1984 Getrag gearbox against a modern Vauxhall Astra diesel gearbox and the difference is very noticeable. The Getrag was used on BMW's and Opel Monza's, car's with big torquey engines, but the torque was delivered in a smoother fashion, so you'd expect the gearbox to last the life of the car (probably outlast it!).
The main reason for failure though was never changing the gearbox oil.
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>>You really need to find a good quack Dog. No one would want that sort of torment. Could take years off your life<<
Well gord likes em :(
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>> Well gord likes em :(
Yeah, but he's a quirky sort of bod :)
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>>There was an good article in Car Mechanics mag about gearboxes and their durability<<
•All about Automatic Gearboxes ... APRIL 2013 issue on sale from MARCH 21 ;)
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>> •All about Automatic Gearboxes ... APRIL 2013 issue on sale from MARCH 21 ;)
Wow that's tomorrow. I'm already getting moist at the prospect...
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>> >>There was an good article in Car Mechanics mag about gearboxes and their durability<<
Cheers D, will try and pick that issue up.
Anything we should really know about without giving too much away?
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>>Cheers D, will try and pick that issue up. Anything we should really know about without giving too much away?
T'was corax that gave it a mench gb, I've put my order in with the Memsahib :)
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>> T'was corax that gave it a mench
Ah so it was, thanks Corax hope to pick a copy up later on today.
Don't know why i don't have a sub to CM, about the only car magazine i can stand now.
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>>about the only car magazine i can stand now.
Good to see it's still going gord, I was reading it 40 years ago!
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>> >>There was an good article in Car Mechanics mag about gearboxes and their durability<<
>>
>> •All about Automatic Gearboxes ... APRIL 2013 issue on sale from MARCH 21 ;)
>>
The February issue had the Dual Mass Flywheel report. Now there is a device of the devil. :-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Wed 20 Mar 13 at 13:52
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The Ford CVT box was horrid, just never felt right. Rover did a CVT in the Metro and MK2 Rover 200 and the creep was so strong the brakes could barely hold it, but it was nice once rolling.
Best Ive driven was the old bubble shape Micra - very smooth and unobtrusive.
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>> Wind up or not they don't need to stand by their product here, they sell
>> like hot cakes regardless of the problems and lack of customer care, something i'm unable
>> to fathom.
>>
I was certainly a bit surprised to find new VWs only come with 1 year roadside assistance. On the other 3 cars in the family (Mercedes, Honda and Mitsubishi) the cover is renewed every time they're dealer serviced.
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"..unprecedented 10 years..."
They offer 10 years on Touareg (5 years on other models) powertrains in the US
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CVT?
I drive a Jazz with the latest CVT married to a torque convertor. Lovely in town and on motorways. As economical as a manual.
No known vices so far.
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Some of this is down to dealers. Like the ones who used to put standard oil in PD diesels.
A DSG transmission needs servicing every 40,000 miles religiously. Many dealers don't mention this at the appropriate service time, and it gets ignored. I know three separate people this has happened to, two of which realised and had the dealer change the fluid on separate appointments, and the other which carried on driving. The transmission on this car, a Skoda Superb, failed at just shy of 60,000 miles. One of the other two, an Audi A3 2.0 TDI was written off in an accident at 160,000 miles. Fluid changes aside, the DSG box had never been touched, and was still operating perfectly.
A small sample, but one which follows the general opinion of the VW dealer technician who looks after our Golf. Regular fluid changes = long service life. They are not as tolerant of abuse or neglect as a conventional transmission, but if treated and serviced correctly, are not particularly problematic.
Last edited by: DP on Wed 20 Mar 13 at 10:45
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>> A DSG transmission needs servicing every 40,000 miles religiously. Many dealers don't mention this at
>> the appropriate service time, and it gets ignored.
You're right DP. German cars in particular need servicing to the letter. Not servicing a car using the correct oils and procedures does not compute with the Teutonic mindset.
This is where the Japanese score because they engineer their cars using standard oils and techniques, meaning they can usually, though not always, take some abuse.
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Isn't everything a bit wong in China?
WONG'S COMMUTATORS AND COPPER WINDINGS - BEST PRICES - INSTANT DESPATCH
Remember our slogan:
'Wound the Wong Way!'
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>> Remember our slogan:
>>
>> 'Wound the Wong Way!'
>>
That's because they get very confucious.
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Is this thread title not offensive. I know someone called Wong!
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Not meant to be rtj. Just a joke, feeble if you like.
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>> Is this thread title not offensive. I know someone called Wong!
>>
Careful, the forum police will bin the thread. :-)
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To quote Arthur Calwell (Australian politician 1947)
"Two Wongs don't make a White"
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I'll put my two penth in, I've had my DSG since new for 7 years now, and I've never had any issue with it, for sure it takes a short period to adjust to it's characteristics but nothing any competent driver couldn't do, drivers make the mistake of thing that it's just like a regular auto and drive thinking that it will behave the in the same way, sure it's a bit jerky when cold but so can a manual. As has been mentioned it must be serviced at the 40K mark for it to be in tip-top condition, also it should have any software updates applied at the appropriate time (mine are done when it's serviced - sorry but I know many think it's a sin but I've always gone to my main dealer).
I wouldn't be without one, and would certainly pay to have another but at the moment I'm quite happy with the way it performs.
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Rudedog, I'm willing to bet that you don't spend about 2 hours a day in crawling traffic. A DSG is simply not up to the job of nipping into gaps in a split second. You would need to make the decision before you are aware that the decision needs to be made. It's intensely irritating.
As I said, put one on a windy, empty A road and it's wonderful. In the city, it's terrible. And I'm a reasonably competent driver at worst, I'd say.
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German taxi drivers seem quite fond of them. I must have gone in more than a dozen DSG equipped VWs and Skodas during my recent week in Germany.
The speed and smoothness of the gear changes, from a passenger perspective at least, is very impressive.
I wonder if recent software and hardware updates have improved things. These were all late model cars, and all with TDI engines.
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>> The speed and smoothness of the gear changes, from a passenger perspective at least, is
>> very impressive.
Indeed. However, it's the standing starts which are my bugbear with the DSG. Which is what renders it annoying in stop/start city traffic. Well, it annoys me. Others are evidently unbothered.
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>> Indeed. However, it's the standing starts which are my bugbear with the DSG. Which is
>> what renders it annoying in stop/start city traffic. Well, it annoys me. Others are evidently
>> unbothered.
I wonder if this is something that has got better with updates. A colleague of mine used to mention how the logic in the DSG box fitted his A3 was completely confused by his steep driveway, and as a result, the only way to negotiate it was in a series of lurches. They certainly were not perfect at one point, if indeed they are today.
Last edited by: DP on Thu 21 Mar 13 at 12:41
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Hi guys sorry not posted in a while. I drove one recently in a fabia VRS and there was no delay pulling away or hunting. I would be put off though by potential expense and the lack of involvement. I think that car lost sales by being dual clutch only and i think the new Clio RS will also, especially as autocar this week said the changes just aren't quick enough.
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Did about 1,000 miles in a DSG equiped Sharan on holiday last year and loved it.
Mrs B also liked it and said she would like one. Neither of us noticed any issues with smoothness or hesitation.
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One of our reps has a DSG diesel Passat. It has 130K miles on it bless it ( and him ) and so far it has been no trouble. I've never driven that car but he says it's smooth. One of our other company cars is a DSG diesel Golf which I did drive the other day for a short run in traffic. It was ok although I have this mild prejudice against small nippy cars with any form of auto box. Just doesn't feel right somehow. Not sure what I mean by that as I love autos when fitted to large wafty cars. Just me probably.
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People who are obviously sensible and knowledgeable speak highly of DSG.
All I can say is that in crawling, shunting nose-to-tail up hill and down dale traffic that I drove that (pretty new, hired) Golf diesel in, it didn't cut the mustard. In fact it was pretty awful: hesitant, unresponsive and usually in the wrong gear. Awful. Gimme a slush pump any day, thirst or no thirst (naturally manual is best for all purposes).
However at the top of the Grove I turned left into Harrow Road and pressed the loud pedal hard. To my huge surprise it changed UP a gear (don't ask me how many it had, six perhaps) and bolted forward like a jackrabbit. Alas, the pub wasn't far so I had to curb the thing. Needs must when the devil drives. I bet it's great on the road. Just crap in a proper town.
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50 odd thousand miles on and I think I've finally got the hang of the box on the Merc. It's a slusher but it has a "Sport" option with full auto on "Economy" or "Sport" or flappy paddles or you can change gear using the gearlever, or you can select full manual too if you can be bothered...
Most of the time I just leave it in "E" and "D" and let it work it's own thing out but if I'm in the mood I select "Sport" and use the flappy paddles. Goes a bit in that mode...
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DSG normally wouldn't be a problem at low mileage when it's covered by warranty, but has anyone got one with over 100k on the clock? That is the question. And it's relevant because it will render them a useless secondhand buy if the gearbox goes goes expensively t*ts up at higher mileage, which it will do, due to it's design.
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New cars are getting ever more complex, and if it isn't the failure of a fancy gearbox that kills them in 10 years, it'll be something else equally as uneconomic to fix. But that's nothing new.
Conventional autos are becoming rarer as emission rules force more efficient slush boxes on us, so soon there won't be a choice, by which time I'm sure some enterprising engineers will have found a fix. And that's nothing new either.
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Manual: cheaper, more efficient, more economical all other things being equal so to speak ( :o} ).
But I hope I will be rich enough to buy a good slushpump auto before they vanish... Bristol.... Mmmmm
No harm in hoping what?
Edit: I owned one once for a couple of months and it was terrific. I'd forgotten that.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Thu 21 Mar 13 at 20:28
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Become a gigolo AC. Haircut, teeth in, decent whistle from Oxfam, sorted...
:-)
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Difficult at my age without, er, money. Even the blue suede all leather bootees I got yesterday for only 37 quid from this winsome Russian chick in the first shoeshop I visited in Portobello Road yesterday afternoon wouldn't make me a gigolo.
Had a friend who was a gigolo though, pretty successful. He was one of those friends you don't entirely like but remember as amusing. Actually I visited him on his deathbed a year or so back not long after describing his driving in a non-fiction for HJ... but never mind that. It was a weird coincidence.
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>> I owned one once for a couple of months and it was terrific.
Not a Bristol. Just a decent slushpump auto.
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>> I wouldn't be without one, and would certainly pay to have another but at the
>> moment I'm quite happy with the way it performs.
>>
I have to agree, ours is perfectly fine - particularly in the stop/start crawl of Melbourne traffic where it is as smooth as any TC I've driven and easier on the left leg than a manual. It 'clicks' through the gears with a delightful alacrity which even the best manual/driver combination could not match. It will change down to give engine braking if you dab the brakes or are using the cruise control - engine braking being something TC autos lack in my experience. It will 'creep' like a TC if you feather the brakes but also seems to instantaneously disengage drive when held on the brakes so you don't get that feeling of the engine working against the brakes (and wasting fuel).
I've read the horror stories, however there must be millions of these in circulation now with some big mileages, VAG continues to install (and develop) them too. I wonder what percentage have actually given problems ? The 37G7 'update' is fitted to ours and (so far) it has exhibited none of the irksome behaviour cited in this thread and elsewhere, time will tell of course.
The Hill Hold function is completely unobtrusive too, I have never noticed it intervening whilst manoeuvring at slow speed where it's similar to a conventional TC and very controllable in my opinion. The Hill Hold function only stops the car rolling backwards and does not appear to intervene whilst manoueuvring however you utilise the brakes so I don't understand the comments in a parallel thread about this.
However, I've not driven the DSG with a diesel engine, given the 'all or nothing' peakiness of VAG diesel engines (especially the PDs in my experience) I wonder if it is these combinations which are less satisfactory ?
Last edited by: idle_chatterer on Thu 21 Mar 13 at 22:53
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Well my 140 PD has been a perfect combination, in both my daily commuter crawl to open country driving.
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Audi A5 is a svelte looking jalopy. There was one parked near ours Islington way last night. One of those with a V6 turbodiesel and no damn DSG would be well flash I reckon...
A bit on the big side. RS 4 or 6 is chunkier. But a silver A5 look so streamline innit? Cha!
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My final take on this is I would have one if I was not going to do high miles and I would have to have paddles on the multi function wheel on a VAG product. I prefer manual but the Fabia VRS with 180 bhp twincharge was good with DSG. It seemed mostly to judge right gear but if not it takes milliseconds to change down with a flick of the paddles and downchanges when driving hard with perfectly matched revs are very impressive. I would just be wary of long term expense of replacing clutches etc. Also they need a 40k fluid and oil/filter change. I do love the engineering concept and you can really press on in a dsg but they are a little uninvolving :/
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Further developments , according to bloomberg news: tinyurl.com/ccyjmjz
"Volkswagen China Recall May Cost More Than $600 Million"
"Volkswagen AG (VOW) recalled a record number of vehicles in China to replace defective gearboxes that may result in the loss of acceleration, in a move that may cost Europe’s largest carmaker more than $600 million.
The recall of 384,181 vehicles, conducted by Volkswagen and its joint ventures, include the Golf, Magotan, Sagitar and Audi A3, China’s quality inspector said on its website. While Volkswagen declined to comment on the financial toll, research firm LMC Automotive estimated the replacements will cost between 3,000 yuan ($483) to 10,000 yuan per vehicle. "
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You've got to laugh at the irony of it really. Here is a country that makes mostly junk products that don't last 5 minutes, and they're making a supposedly quality german manufacturer repair shoddy products.
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Volkswagen - DSG goes wong in China - -
