Someone I know asked me what car to get. Requirements were estate, could tow small caravan, reliable and 40 mpg, budget £1500.
I thought about it and said maybe a Hyundai Matrix 1.6 - plenty at that budget, decent space and robust mechanicals - my recent experience of ours made me quite confident in recommending it. If they could find one, even the diesel would do the job.
What they bought was a Fiat Stilo Estate JTD with 90k on the clock - Now put aside my car suggestion - with those requirements, hands up who would have picked a Stilo?
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Between those two the FIAT every time. That Hyundai thing looks like a car which has been designed by someone who has heard of the term "car" but has never actually seen one. Henhouse on wheels.
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And it's not an estate. It's a popemobile.
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I'd rather, no really, I would, honestly, I'd rather have a Lancer estate than that Hyundai...
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good car the stillo, I choose it over the Matrix every day. The 1.6 matrix would be useless at towing.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 28 Feb 13 at 16:28
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I didnt say which would you choose between the two, I said would you buy a Stilo, with your own money?
I wasnt aware of the Stilo excellent record for reliability. I asked my garage m8 today and his response was 'Oh god no, not one of them'.
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>> I didnt say which would you choose between the two, I said would you buy
>> a Stilo, with your own money?
>>
>> I wasnt aware of the Stilo excellent record for reliability. I asked my garage m8
>> today and his response was 'Oh god no, not one of them'.
Is that a generic 'Fix It Again Tomorrow' type response or specific to the Stilo.
I'd certainly look at one but as a Citroen owner my judgement may be suspect.
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>>Is that a generic 'Fix It Again Tomorrow' type response or specific to the Stilo <<
No, he said he looks after a few locally and they frequently go wrong in very obscure ways, things which are difficult to pinpoint, esp electrical issues and he has heard alot of axle probs.
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>>Axle probs?
A torsion beam set up at rear got some criticism but is that an axle?
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>> I wasnt aware of the Stilo excellent record for reliability. I asked my garage m8
>> today and his response was 'Oh god no, not one of them'.
>>
It's really on the the petrol engined ones which give problems. The JTDs are reliable. Thousands of Belgrade taxi drivers can't be wrong.
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Different classes of vehicle. The Matrix is, in old money, sub Escort size. The Stilo in Mult-Wagon guise is a class bigger. Not quite Mondeo but like the Cit Bx, falling between Escort and Mondeo.
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She just asked me for something with a big enough boot to put dog in and had a look at mine and reckoned it was the right size.
It isnt a question of which one you would choose though, it is whether your first port of call for that sort of car would be the Stilo. I would have thought a Focus over a Stilo but it seems there are many Stilo fans here :-)
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>> She just asked me for something with a big enough boot to put dog in
>> and had a look at mine and reckoned it was the right size.
Your OP referred to estate, could tow small caravan, reliable and 40 mpg. No mention of fido.
I'd still prefer the Stilo.
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Fair enough Bromp. If her car goes wrong I will wet myself laughing though :-)
HJ doesnt seem to rate them.
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Ok then, for the sake of clarity, I'd probably not rush to buy a Stilo either although I'd be prepared to be persuaded. Nothing much I can think of other than a very lucrative bet would persuade me to buy that Korean self propelled garden shed.
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>>Nothing much I can think of other than a very lucrative bet would persuade me to buy that Korean self propelled garden shed. <<
It is the same shape as every other MPV :-)
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"Ok then, for the sake of clarity, I'd probably not rush to buy a Stilo"
I thought you liked high heel stilos, Humph. Better to rush to buy two though, else you'll walk funny.
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>> I'd probably not rush to buy a Stilo either although I'd be prepared to be persuaded.
Well, me too. I don't like the look of the Stilo, oddly because Italian design is snazzy as a rule and Stilo means 'style'.
But it is often said here that in this banger or near-banger price range you buy on condition not make or mileage, and Fiat secondhand prices are sure to be lower than Focus ones. So I wouldn't hesitate to go for a Stilo if it's a nice one. It's sure to drive much more amusingly than the Hyundai. I hate small people carriers, and big ones too come to that.
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I'm going to Ireland tomorrow and then to Italy on Saturday for a few days work. I've pre-booked a small car for the Italian trip. I do hope it will be an Italian small car. They always feel more willing than other makes.
One of the most outrageous hire cars I ever got in Italy was an Alfa something, might have been a 155 maybe. Looked like it had been designed by someone with a love of origami anyway. Ugly red thing but boy did it go. 3.0 petrol I think. I'd arrived late at an airport and they'd over-sold their normal stuff so I got a free upgrade. Can't say I'd have bought one but it was a very pleasing thing to dash about in.
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Going through Holyhead ? If so I'll get the Mrs to pull faces at you as you get on the boat !
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No, not this time. Queasyjet day trip.
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>> Going through Holyhead ? If so I'll get the Mrs to pull faces at you
>> as you get on the boat !
a welsh tradition
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I think I'm probably the only poster on here who's owned a Stilo.
1.9JTD Multiwagon, Dynamic [AC] spec, 2005 (05) reg. Brilliant car, easy on fuel, huge carry load, comfortable and powerful. No faults whatsoever in my ownership. Tended to mist up a bit, but all my cars seem to do that. Must be me. The only blot on its copybook was a really heavy clutch. It didn't ride or handle as well as a Focus, I'll give you that, but as a tow car that hardly matters. I bet a £1500 Stilo would be a newer, better nick car than a £1500 Focus.
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Good buy driven and owned a few Fiats would buy the Multiwagen if budget was tight.
The last Punto I had,engine a 1.9 Diesel no turbo did plenty of miles in it.
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Well thats 5 weeks and the car broke down, pretty good going for a Fiat :-)
Low oil pressure light along with the STOP lights and then the car died.
All is not lost though. The car hasnt been serviced in quite a few years and it broke down after a long hot run so I thought maybe the oil was a bit thin and surpise suprise she topped up the oil with some fresh stuff and the oil pressure light has gone out although the STOP lights wont.
Ive suggested changing the oil and filter and maybe the oil pressure sensor, then see what happens, but it is a cheap way to rule things out, judging by the Fiat forums they all do it so atleast she isnt alone.
The Green Flag bloke who recovered it said he didnt think the oil pump had gone since there was a fair bit of pressure when he checked.
I have my fingers crossed for her although I admit, I did laugh, alot.
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Does the owner know what a dipstick looks like and how to use it?
And if it's not been serviced why on earth was the oil and filter not changed asap?
Would be £50-£60 at one of those In and Out places?
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>>Does the owner know what a dipstick looks like and how to use it? <<
Could be touch and go there. She found the oil filler cap, but I suspect that she is of the 'if it starts then it doesnt need anything' type.
>>And if it's not been serviced why on earth was the oil and filter not changed asap?<<
See above.
I felt at the time that something like an old diesel Primera estate would have done her well and suited her 'when I remember' style of servicing.
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Wetware problem, not the hardware's fault. I hope you were laughing at the owner, not the car.
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Bit of both. While the Fiat Stilo is a reasonable motor on paper, a less than frequently serviced example is unlikely to be at the top of most peoples list, which explains why it was so cheap.
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Couple of thoughts...
Did the oil and stop lamps come on before the engine stopped or afterwards?
Does this model have the function where the oil warning light can flash and then stay on to indicate its time to change the oil not that there is a pressure issue? On some models this is regarded as a dealer job to reset the light... but I guess it can be DIY sorted somehow.
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>>Did the oil and stop lamps come on before the engine stopped or afterwards?<<
The way she told it was that the lights came on, then a little way down the road the car died, I assumed it died as a preservation mode - the car now restarts and runs when cold although she isnt yet brave enough to see how far it will go.
Being a Fiat there is no guarantee that a light coming on means that anything is wrong at all - my garage mate said that he has seen many Fiats with warning lights come on that turned out to be wiring/connector issues rather than anything serious.
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>> a less
>> than frequently serviced example is unlikely to be at the top of most peoples list,
Goes for all motors, frankly.
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The oil changed worked and the car was up and running, apparently what drained out looked like black water. They couldnt find the pressure sensor but I suspect it is buried, it is a tight engine bay.
The car did 10 miles before breaking down this time with what sounds like an entirely new fault. Engine cut out and wouldnt restart and a flat battery so I would take a wild stab at it being the alternator. Apparently the car also came up with a message saying 'turn left' which I imagine is italian for ditch it into the verge.
She has about £50 left to fix it, I told her the best way to spend that is on Ebay fees.
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The alternator went on my Galaxy a few years back. It's a pretty common component to fail on all older cars. I'd bet that once she's got that fixed, the Stilo will go a fair while longer without presenting a (non wear and tear) bill.
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Not so easy to change one if you dont have the tools and the car is parked two miles from home on a grass verge. The battery is also dead. From what I have read the alternator is not in a DIY friendly place on these.
It isnt that old, it is only 7 years old. My point to her and my point to you is that if you live hand to mouth as she does, nor do you have the money or the skills to repair a car, a big old Fiat is not a safe bet and so it has proven. She has been without a car for a week now and no sign yet of her finding the funds to fix it. If you have money to burn then fine, but she just doesnt and that was why I thought it was a bad choice.
Dare I say it an old Mondeo would have been a better choice. She bought the Fiat because it was local, but the car still is local - about 2 miles down the road.
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>>Dare I say it an old Mondeo would have been a better choice...
Ah, is that the sound of a penny dropping I hear?
:-)
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Look, alls I'm saying is that any 7 year old/£1500 car is a punt, they'll all have something go pop sooner or later. At £1500 you can't buy reliability, there's no point trying really. If you're trying to say you can, well, I don't agree. Even a sainted Mazda/Honda/Toyota can present you with a naffed alternator at that age. Your acquaintance got a bit unlucky here, but not because it's FIAT.
In fact, try buying a 7 year old sainted Mazda/Honda/Toyota for £1500 and see how much you get for your money.
Yes, I know, you'd buy a Daihatsu Grand Move. ;-)
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Buy something easy to work on and easy/cheap to get parts for at this age. It doesn't matter about the make. And being able to do basics yourself makes it very unlikely to chuck an uncomfortably big bill at you. This, and breakdown recovery will cover most eventualities.
A 60-day-guaranteed used alternator for my old Golf 4 GTI 1.8T set me back £35 delivered from a VW/Audi breaker on the 'Bay. Fitting took 45 mins, including stopping for a fag and coffee. Could have done it in 20 if I'd been in a hurry.
ABS light was on for a couple of minutes afterwards which cleared itself (under-volt code).
Last edited by: DP on Mon 15 Apr 13 at 15:31
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I bought a 9 year old Daihatsu for £2k and I have piled 15k on it in a year. Despite the fact that it was a low mileage car which come with certain age related problems, it has only had a new exhaust, new brakes and servicing.
It has been a great car and I would go so far to say that I would happily sell it to a family member - I wouldnt sell a Fiat to a family member, I like my family.
>>Yes, I know, you'd buy a Daihatsu Grand Move. ;-) <<
On her budget, yeah prob. What you overlook is that the cars I tend to seek out are not just known for being quite reliable, but it is also about the type of owner they have likely had - my car had two elderly owners who serviced it at main dealers for its entire life, most Daihatsus lead that kind of life and aside from rusting exhausts ( done ) and sticky calipers on low milers ( done ) the Charade does not have any known common faults AND if they are they are simple mechanical fixes, so you can budget for them.
I wouldnt say a Mazda is sainted, they got in bed with Ford and Toyota are not what they used to be, my in-laws have had all sorts of niggly problems with their '05 Corolla.
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Had your Daihatsu not been serviced for several years aswell?
I really dont see why a car which hadnt been serviced for so long and have an oil problem reflect in any way on the make of the car??
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Does it explain all the other people on the Fiat forums who have had the same problems? Are Fiat enthusiasts neglectful owners too then?
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>the only muntermobile in the village; if she'd spent £1,500 on one of those she'd still have had >no contingency fund for repairs. and she and her neighbours would have had to look at it.
oh lord, my screen needs cleaning and my sides still hurt...
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Is it a 1.9 JTD ?
If so as far as I am aware there arent particular problems with this engine and oil
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>>If so as far as I am aware there arent particular problems with this engine and oil <<
There were many references to the oil pressure warnings on the Stlio, I suspect it is electrical rather than oil and there are some references to a battery problem causing the low oil pressure warnings ( could explain the car dying with a flat battery ), but I cant be bothered to read every thread on the matter, there are too many.
www.clubfiat.net/forum/engine/2190-recurring-oil-pressure-light-when-tight-cornering-2.html
"Oil Pressure Sensor Fault is quite a common one on the JTD gents, so my first port of call would be a new sensor"
Perhaps you need to become more aware :-)
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Nice to see Stu enjoying someone else's stupidity after years of us.....
Wonder if the woman in question will get a family bailout to buy a munterwagon of her own.
As an aside I wouldn't be surprised if a goosed battery is enough to cause multi-organ failure on the Stilo - fix the battery (+/- alternator) and the rest should settle.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Mon 15 Apr 13 at 20:00
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>>Wonder if the woman in question will get a family bailout to buy a munterwagon of her own. <<
I suppose that depends if she gives them a house.
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"Munterwagon"
I'm so going to use that when I next get the chance to do so in the hearing of my pal who's just bought a new Panamera !
It's actually very very nice but y'know, any reasonable opportunity to wind him up a bit...
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I was just paraphrasing WdB's 'muntermobile' a few posts higher up....
And his has alliteration, which is of course the lowest form of wit ;-)
(read any Daily Star or Sun headline for proof)
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I think it's inspired. Just have to find the right moment.
Edit - I've suffered enough Duesseldorf taxi comments from him...
Last edited by: Humph D'Bout on Mon 15 Apr 13 at 20:13
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Just wait until I get a Ssangyong Kyron, it is certainly different.
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Just bought a Forester S-Turbo today for towing and tinkering.
Nae the prettiest but can't beat the wolf-in-Postman Pat's van look.
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>>Forester S-Turbo
Supposed to be quite good those.
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...the lowest form of wit
You know me, Lygo - lower than a snake's bellybutton ornament in a basement car park.
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>> As an aside I wouldn't be surprised if a goosed battery is enough to cause
>> multi-organ failure on the Stilo - fix the battery (+/- alternator) and the rest should
>> settle.
Pretty much case with our 1.9D Berlingo.
Failed to start after dropping Miss B off at Uni last September- nix volts. A quick bump start got us half a mile with ABS and brake system warning lights shining. Died again on ring road and further diagnosis found corrosion to alternator output terminal.
Relay home. Renew alternator connection and replace goosed battery. Two on/of cylces and all warnings return to normal.
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...if you live hand to mouth as she does, nor do you have the money or the skills to repair a car, a big old Fiat is not a safe bet...
If you live hand to mouth, no car is a safe bet. As Alanovic points out, anything can require work at any time. Your advice to buy a Matrix was, if I'm being unkind, more to do with validating your own choice and not wanting to have the only muntermobile in the village; if she'd spent £1,500 on one of those she'd still have had no contingency fund for repairs. and she and her neighbours would have had to look at it.
Your friend's mistake was not to buy a Fiat instead of a Hyundai; it was to spend £1,500 on a car when £1,500 was all she had. Better advice would have been to buy the best she could find for £800, and to put the rest aside against the inevitable bills. The type of car is barely relevant.
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>>Your advice to buy a Matrix was, if I'm being unkind, more to do with validating your own choice and not wanting to have the only muntermobile in the village <<
Actually she looked at mine when it was on the drive and said it was pretty much what she was looking for and asked if she could get one on her budget. I dont know what on earth that has to do with validating my choice at all really.
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I dont know what on earth that has to do with validating my choice at all really.
I did say I was being unkind, Stu - and maybe unfair. But you then brought the question to us, and everything about it said "Please tell me my friend should have bought a car like mine!" And I still say it would have been a poor buy because she can't afford to fix it when it breaks.
}:---)
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I am suprised how many people thought that the best small diesel estate for £1500 was a Fiat Stilo, although I wonder how many who said that have actually owned one.
I imagined there would be the usual chorus of 'Focus, Mondeo' etc and I did say to her that a Focus estate wouldnt be a bad choice.
The reason I recommended the car I own is because she is very heavily involved with my family and it had to be an ultra safe suggestion - she asked me about the Stilo before she bought it and I said to her it would prob break down and electrics can be iffy so I wouldnt but it is up to her. I didnt expect the car to back me up quite so soon tbh, that was just bad luck but then again, she did buy that Fiat Seicento with no VIN plate, so the chances of her coming back with a gold standard used car were slim anyway.
She cannot afford to fix any car when it breaks, she leads what my father calls a chaotic life, both family and financially. I suppose you could say that she bought a car to match.
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Im sorry but I thought an oil warning light coming on a car which hasnt had an oil change for "years" is exactly what its supposed to do
That is very different from a car with correct oil that isnt far too old which has a sensor come on
Also they dont all do it. Because someone mentions a problem on a forum doesnt mean it is endemic
The Bravo JTD that I just traded in didnt do it (and that was after 150,000 miles) ;)
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I have never had an oil warning light come on in a car and the engine cut out, but maybe that is normal on Fiats, I dont know, it is italian afterall, any excuse for a rest :-)
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well try not changing or checking the oil for two years on your muntermobile and you will.
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Doubt it. I knew a fella in the trade a few years back now who drove around in a Nissan Almera that he had no recollection of ever servicing in the years he had owned it as he had bought it for a few hundred quid and was just waiting for it to expire, but it hadnt. Had close to 200k on the clock.
Not all cars throw a wobbly because the oil is a bit old. At best the oil in the Fiat is maybe 3 years old which isnt pushing the limits like some do. She had a Punto a few years back and she never changed the oil, she thought this one would be the same. I love the optimism.
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>> I have never had an oil warning light come on in a car and the
>> engine cut out,
Depends how long it was between the oil warning light coming on and the engine cutting out. Could she have driven it until it seized?
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>>Depends how long it was between the oil warning light coming on and the engine cutting out. Could she have driven it until it seized? <<
If it seized then it is a miracle that she changed the oil and drove it ten miles. I think it may come down to the alternator/battery although if that was what made it cut out the first time I wouldnt have expected it to make the latter journey. It could be two incidents unrelated and it was just having a bad week.
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I'd have thought she could get a quick diagnosis between battery and alternator for next to nowt.
Even if the battery is not getting charge current the cause could be a wiring break (intermitttent?) or earthing issue rather than low/nil volts at Alty output.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 16 Apr 13 at 11:15
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>>I'd have thought she could get a quick diagnosis between battery and alternator for next to nowt.<<
Apparently the car is on a verge in the countryside, last time I saw her I think she was hoping someone would steal it. I expect green flag can diagnose it if she calls them out again but they seemed a bit clueless last time, their priority seems to be just to get the job signed off.
I hope it isnt a wiring break etc, she just doesnt have the means to faff around with those sorts of issues, they can be a money pit if you pay someone else to do the work and she would have to.
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>> She cannot afford to fix any car when it breaks, she leads ... a chaotic life, both family and financially.
>> I suppose you could say that she bought a car to match.
I know someone like that Stu, possibly occupying the same position if I get you right. She's had a £400 Y reg Vectra for the last 6 months and it's spent 50% of that time broken down. Frustrating isn't it.
Last edited by: Dave_TiD on Tue 16 Apr 13 at 11:17
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>>know someone like that Stu, possibly occupying the same position if I get you right. She's had a £400 Y reg Vectra for the last 6 months and it's spent 50% of that time broken down. Frustrating isn't it.<<
It is when you like someone on a personal level, but they seem beyond any reasonable help. I have vowed to sell her my Charade when I am done with it as atleast I will know she is getting a decently cared for car, but that wont be for a while yet.
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>> I have vowed to sell her my Charade when I am done with it as atleast I will know she is getting a decently cared for car
Waste of a good Charade: she'll never change and you can't change her.
Life gets tough when you start taking responsibility for other people's lives - encourage, educate, but try to avoid putting yourself in the position of caring for someone who can look after themself.
I bet my patients love coming to see me :-)
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 24 Apr 13 at 00:59
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>>I bet my patients love coming to see me :-)
Oh I don't know so much, I'd think we'd have a good understanding if you were my Quack ! I tend to avoid doctors unless I've got a broken bone sticking out and in those circumstances they have their uses. Anything else seems to confuse them and is usually best dealt with by application of common sense.
Edit - and whisky of course !
;-)
Last edited by: Humph D'Bout on Tue 16 Apr 13 at 12:06
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Stu, I can promise you from past experience of dealing with a similar friend, that she'd take your perfect condition Charade, neglect it until it too broke down, then come back to you complaining that you'd sold her a lemon.
Said friend remains astonished to have been "let down" by a succession of Toyotas, Opels/Vauxhauls and Mitsubishis (none of which were models with grave known faults to begin with) despite starving them of oil, coolant, air in their tyres and anything else bar barely enough fuel to get from A to B!
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Prob right about the Charade, but then how many people out there take very good care of older cars anyway, so whoever I sell it to will prob abuse it more than I have.
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>> Prob right about the Charade, but then how many people out there take very good
>> care of older cars anyway, so whoever I sell it to will prob abuse it
>> more than I have.
>>
From what I have seen, probably the same amount who will affect the same abuse of a new or nearly new car. If you mean older as in 10 years +?
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>> >> She cannot afford to fix any car when it breaks, she leads ... a
>> chaotic life, both family and financially.
>> >> I suppose you could say that she bought a car to match.
>>
>> I know someone like that Stu, possibly occupying the same position if I get you
>> right. She's had a £400 Y reg Vectra for the last 6 months and it's
>> spent 50% of that time broken down. Frustrating isn't it.
>>
I suppose we're having the usual bangernomics debate again really. If I had maximum of 1.5K (which is more than I usually spend on a car) then I'd get a 1K car and have a 500 quid repair fund. I've run various cheap leggy Vauxhalls over 330,000 miles over the last 12 years and I can think of 4 breakdowns total during that time. It's a matter of buying the right banger:-
-Do the research and avoid models with too many known inherent design/manufacturing faults.
-Stick to a manufacturer/model where likely spare parts are cheap / plenty at the breakers
-Buy an example with full service history, with a common model they will be out there.
At the end of the day there's no telling some people though :-/
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She had it recovered to a garage who checked it over and said nout wrong with it. She then drove it home but it broke down again a few miles from home so she had it recovered to a local garage who have diagnosed a problem with the fuel rail now.
Last edited by: FoR on Thu 18 Apr 13 at 09:35
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Would you make this car choice? - Alanovich
