Tested: Two identical cars, except for this. One has four-wheel drive. The other has front-wheel drive, but has winter tyres.
Which performs better in snow?
There are three tests, and the same car does not win all three.
www.autocar.co.uk/car-video/winter-tyres-vs-four-wheel-drive
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Tragedy near here with 4wd..
tinyurl.com/ak4dbkt
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What were they doing on a bridle path?
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>> What were they doing on a bridle path?
>>
The family lived here, just a few cottages well away from a ' proper ' road in a triangle of old railway lines. Only the line on the left is still complete and in use.
tinyurl.com/au95zt6
Ted
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Very interesting although not surprising (to me) really, winter tyres are no good in Cornwall though, as we haven't had a winter since I bought my Nokians nearly 2 years ago (famous last words!)
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>> There are three tests, and the same car does not win all three.
One would like to see how well the 4wd version would do with the winter tyres fitted though. It would be somewhat heavier because of the extra transmission parts.
Frankel did say the fwd car handled more predictably and sweetly. That isn't all that surprising, but the flaw in the comparison - presumably intended to boost sales of winter tyres - is that both cars weren't tested with both types of tyre. So, a bit dumbed-down and aimed at punters.
Does anyone know whether the Yeti has the VAG 4-motion system or whether it is permanent AWD?
But the braking test did convince me on the benefit of winter tyres.
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Pretty sure its 4-motion, not AWD
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Strangely enough I was looking for some feedback on Sailun tyres last night and came across this which is a comparison between winter and summer tyres on a fwd car:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zIfmMulIwg
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Forester (AWD Yokohama slightly all weather tyres) offered more confidence than a CRV (part time 4wd) wearing Michelin Latitude non-snowflake M&S, which in-turn had more grip and felt more sure-footed than the FRV (FWD wearing Michelin Alpin snowflake jobbies).
About as scientific a test as the OP link ;-)
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>> Forester
A very confidence-inspiring machine I seem to remember, fairly brisk and very refined. But I only drove it on the road in non-snow conditions.
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"Automated manuals.>> Pretty sure its 4-motion, not AWD"
Automatic Yetis have 7 speed VAG DSG twin dry clutch in petrols. 6 speed twin wet clutch in diesels. Automated manual box. 4 wheel Drive is on demand not permanent.
Last edited by: kb on Fri 1 Feb 13 at 17:05
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>> Automatic Yetis have 7 speed VAG DSG twin dry clutch in petrols. 6 speed twin
>> wet clutch in diesels. Automated manual box. 4 wheel Drive is on demand not permanent.
>>
Excellent stuff kb! A definitive reply to a serious question.
Worth a thumbs up.
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Here's me* doing doughnuts in my Foz:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJVPi6w41OQ
* lie.
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Pardon the slight thread drift but...
I'm puzzled, confused even, last Friday I drove back to Cheshire from central Scotland in my E Class auotomatic estate fitted with wide low profile "summer" tyres. About an hour after I came down the M74 / M6 in heavy snow it was closed for hours. Every few miles there were cars strewn at the side of the motorway where they had spun off. All types, fwd, 4wd and rwd. Mine though, just plodded on with no fuss. An occasional blink from the traction control light but no drama. The following morning it had to go about 40 miles across country on untreated snow covered country lanes. Again it coped admirably, even hill starting on snow without fail. Last Sunday night I found myself at midnight on top of the Glenshane Pass in Northern Ireland, snowing heavily again and steep climbs but no problems getting through.
Now, I'm pretty sure my car hasn't got any divine help and while I've driven a bit before I'd not claim to be any kind of rally expert. Or is it just that there's a load of bluster talked about rwd, summer tyres and snow and really all you need to do is take a bit of care and appreciate the conditions?
Or is that some kind of automotive heresy?
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A lot of it is the driver. You only have to watch people setting off and reacting to slip by pressing the accelerator.
If that if the level of thought going on then why would it occur to them that late braking and sharp steering inputs are a problem? You're handling all that without conscious thought I imagine.
And I bet you're aware of things like camber on bends - there are a couple round here that catch people out every year - one is probably no more than a 15 degree bend into a hump backed bridge, not really a bend at all, but the combination of braking and normal camber is enough to put them into a 6 foot ditch.
I've lost count of the cars I've seen in it, but you can spot the better drivers approaching it. They're usually on the crown of the road and going slowly enough to move over under control if an oncoming appears on the bridge.
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You sure you have "summer" tyres? Maybe MB have slipped on a set of all-weather, as it's an estate:) Or you are gifted beyond the ken of ordinary men....
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>> Or you are gifted beyond the ken of ordinary men....
He's just an experienced driver with sensitive hands, feet and bum and a highly evolved 'automatic pilot'. You can't 'power' or wheelspin your way out of trouble in slippery conditions. You have to pussyfoot and be extremely quick to note sideways slip at either end of the car and react to it with minimal steering and throttle inputs. Jerky or heavy footed driving will put you in the scenery straight away.
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>> I was leg-pulling.
Sorry NIL. Nerdish of me.
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I've seen the comment about lots of people can move cars, but not many can drive them.
I had to get ours off the drive for SWMBO when she sat there spinning the wheels and I watched a driver slide down the slope of a car park with the wheels spinning.
I think a lot of drivers have a set procedure for pulling away and are incapable of changing it, either gently in the case of snow and ice or sharply to move away quickly.
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Several winter's back I left work in N. London at about 10pm, to go home via town 'A' and side roads and there was a good couple of inches of snow laying, with more coming down.
The roads were remarkably light of traffic.
I caught up with (in my auto Jag S Type 3 litre petrol on good summer tyres) a 10 year old ish Nissan Micra going up a hill...badly. The clown driving it was revving the nads off it and had the front wheels spinning. Remarkably, he was making a form of progress..but...was doing a very low speed swerve from each side of the road to the next.
My car is awful in the snow..yet...with gentle inputs and a degree of common sense, it sailed along...and I chose my moment when matey was on a left swerve and serenely overtook him.
It really isn't that difficult.
Then...the next hill was a longish one that got increasingly steeper at the top. I tried to get a good momentum going and let the traction control sort things out...which in hindsight was a mistake, because the damned thing kept on cutting power until I hadn't enough to keep going and it stopped.
I was 3/4 of the way up and could see Micra Man at the bottom doing his revving/swerving and didn't fancy reversing down past him for another go...so I reversed it against the kerb (for sidewall friction as well) on the virgin snow, turned TC off, put the handbrake on a half (so both rear driving wheels would turn equally) and off we went again.
It wasn't pretty, I crabbed semi-sideways all the rest of the way up the hill...but it made it...just.
Wouldn't have wanted to try it again though...must be getting old.
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I know I've posted this before, probably several times, but I was married for the first time in February 1963, a bad snowy winter, and drove from London to Plymouth and back on honeymoon in a hired fifties Vauxhall Victor, a garish looking turquoise example with 'a new engine' the hire people said.
Its low power and my preternatural skills carried it happily up packed-snow slopes on which Jaguars, big Humbers and so on were all over the place. On the way back, still in Devon, rain and freezing temperatures actually made it impossible to drive at all, the car sliding down the slightest camber and when parked on a hill sliding slowly down it handbrake on for twenty or thirty yards. There was a turning there with a pub down it and we got a room for the night there. The car got stuck in the yard, all lumpy smooth packed snow, right in the fairway. A squad of jolly marines having a few drinks in the pub manhandled it out of the way into a parking slot, and refused a drink, fine fellows. A place called Cullompton, of happy memory for me.
By the time we got it back to London the Victor was knocking heavily, a big end gone. No doubt when it wasn't slippery I had caned it a bit. The hire people didn't seem to give a damn though, all in the day's work to them.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 2 Feb 13 at 21:29
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>> put the handbrake on a half (so both rear driving wheels would turn equally)
>>
It's a good dodge that. It creates a kind of limited slip differential, combined with torque reduction.
A Renault 4 I had once was brilliant up hill on snow or ice. Front wheel drive with handbrake on the front wheels. I had a knack of driving with one hand on the handbrake, easing it on and off to nip in the bud any wheel spin.
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>> >> put the handbrake on a half (so both rear driving wheels would turn equally)
>> >>
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>> It's a good dodge that. It creates a kind of limited slip differential, combined with
>> torque reduction.
You can't do that with the modern push button handbrakes... which has to be a backwards step on its own.
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>> put the handbrake on a half (so both rear driving wheels would turn equally)
I've never had any success with that method and can't understand the physics that would make a spinning wheel more liable to a braking force than a stationary wheel.
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>> >> put the handbrake on a half (so both rear driving wheels would turn equally)
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>> I've never had any success with that method and can't understand the physics that would
>> make a spinning wheel more liable to a braking force than a stationary wheel.
I haven't had occasion to try it for a long time - Mk 3 Cortina I think - I wonder if it works better on drum brakes with a leading shoe?
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Is it possible the heavier rear biased body of the estate gives a better weight balance?
Not trying to decry Humps driving skills here, and i mean that sincerely cos you don't cover his sort of mileage year in year out in all conditions without mishap when you're incompetent.
I wonder if the LEC is already weighted like a saloon with the proverbial 2 bags of sand in the boot, hence able to start off on hills in packed snow when almost every other RWD shod in normal rubber sits and spins.
That MB coupe of mine is already weighted in favour by virtue of a blinking great LPG tank stuffed in the boot, OK i'm winter tyred too but it takes a serious hill and packed down iced snow or pure ice to make it even slightly slip.
Some cars really are hopeless or should i say some tyres are, flat iced yard trying to load defleet BMW 3 & 5 series on elastic bands, cars could barely move.
Cowley factory heavily snowed in a few years ago, new CooperS's on wideboy tyres couldn't move forwards at but could with some difficulty reverse round the yard, whilst basic MINI on narrow tyres had no bother at all moving normally...all me driving so no advantages to either.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Sat 2 Feb 13 at 21:14
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>> Is it possible the heavier rear biased body of the estate gives a better weight balance?
>> Not trying to decry Humph's driving skills here, and i mean that sincerely cos you don't cover his sort of
>> mileage year in year out in all conditions without mishap when you're incompetent.
My dad didn't have any problems either in his C-Class (diesel auto RWD estate, normal tyres) in the recent snow. He's taken it from 8k miles to 112k without incident.
Winter tyres going on the Mazda next after I failed to get up several hills in it last week. Mostly due to either an insufficient run-up or an excess of wheelspinning numpties cluttering my run-off zones...
Last edited by: Dave_TDCi on Sat 2 Feb 13 at 21:50
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My W124 diesel estate had almost exact 50/50 weight distribution front/rear, with 930 kg on each axle with a full tank of fuel, and loaded only with the driver.
This near 50 50 distribution means that Mercs tend to need the front tyres to run at a lower pressure than the rears, and this can lead to odd tyre wear patterns (edge wear at the front, and centre wear at the rear). So, if it's possible, it's best to rotate the tyres front to rear - and this is a frequently overlooked part of MB's service schedule.
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>> So, if it's possible, it's best to rotate the tyres front to rear - and this is a frequently overlooked part of MB's service schedule.
Not possible for Humph's, different sized tyres each end.
I swap ours around on all cars to even out wear and usually replace all four at the same time.
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>>Not possible for Humph's, different sized tyres each end.
Yes, that's why I included the caveat, "if it's possible".
However, those people who can afford the MBs with staggered wheel front / rear can afford....
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The snow op North is made up of bigger flakes which creates a blanket effect allowing a vehicle to drive over it quite easily, whereas the Southern flakes are that much smaller so they freeze quicker causing icy road conditions.
~wiki.
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Only in Patagonia, Dog. In the northern hemisphere, cold conditions give very small ice crystals. Big, wet, snowflakes are more a southern phenomenon in this region.....
Last edited by: NIL on Sun 3 Feb 13 at 01:18
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Big flakes, small flakes, wet or powdery, ice crystals, sleet, freezing rain: you can get any of them anywhere. Depends on temperature and atmospheric conditions surely. Naturally each would be more likely in some places than others.
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I gather from this thread that in snowy conditions I'm likely be a safer driver in a RWD 3 Series fitted with winter tyres, than I might be in a CR-V 4WD with O/E tyres.
But, would a 3 Series in the same snowy conditions, fitted with all weather tyres, fare better or worse than a CR-V with four WD and O/E tyres?
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According to one muttering rotter the trick to driving a newish BMW on ice or snow is to press the 'eco pro' button. It softens your inputs on the throttle, thereby helping maintain grip.
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For the first time in ages I bought an Autocar to read this article with the "amazing" conclusion. Like AC I couldn't understand why the comparison wasn't completed with winter tyres on the 4WD for a true result. A lightish 4WD (early Fiat Panda, Series 2 Land Rover) with permanent 4WD engaged and winter tyres has staggering ability.
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Our Yeti 4x4 with Continental winters is not going out unless really necessary. 2" of snow at the moment, -1C and looking set in for the day.
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Winter tyres vs four-wheel drive - madf
