In our fleet of ninety plus company cars we have twenty six diesel Astra hatchbacks and estates. A fault is occuring wher the hand brake (mechanical not electronic) is failing after the car has been parked a while.
Our supplier suggested that the drivers were not applying the handbrake properly, ie pulling up to a stop, keeping pressure on the foot brake whilst applying the handbrake. We memo'd the drivers to ask them to follow this procedure but to no avail, six cars have had the brake fail, one twice after going in to a local Vauxhall dealer who denied that there was a problem and found no fault with it.
I know that it is good policy to leave the car in gear but feel there is an under lying
problem. Have any of your good selves any experience of this?
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 28 Jan 13 at 13:04
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Does Vauxhall still apply the handbrake to the rear discs, rather than using a separate drum-and-shoe arrangement?
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Cable appears to go to rear caliper.
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The drum, if it's there, should be visible through the wheel, about the diameter of a CD but much less shiny.
As I understand it, using the disc is problematic because the disc is warm when the handbrake is applied, then contracts as it cools enough to slip through the pads. Must require a degree of operator error, though, or our ponds and ditches would be full of runaway Vauxhalls.
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>>As I understand it, using the disc is problematic because the disc is warm when the handbrake is applied, then contracts as it cools enough to slip through the pads.
I'm with WDB. I've seen numerous cars 'parked' at the bottom of slopes against a solid object and assumed it's due to handbrake slippage.
I've finally taught SWMBO to apply the Nissan's handbrake (on rear discs) with footbrake assistance. I had to sit with her in the car, get her to pull on the handbrake and with her still pulling on the handbrake to push the footbrake before she was convinced. She was surprised at how much further the handbrake came on.
It's in the handbook, but who RTFM?
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When applying the handbrake, do they press the button in so as not to hear the rachet clicking?
If so, then that's not advisable by Vauxhall (well in the case of the Vectra-C anyway)
The trick is to pull up the handbrake without touching the button at all, or letting go of the button just prior to reaching the end limit of travel of the handbrake so the rachet pawl has chance to engage properly.
As you say though, best pratice is to leave in gear, but very few do.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 28 Jan 13 at 13:04
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>> As you say though, best pratice is to leave in gear, but very few do.
>>
I thought that most people did. I certainly do, as does Mrs CS.
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Isn't this all cods wallop.
Drum rear brakes fitted, perfectly adequate for 90% of cars little in the way of problems, excellent and reliable parking brake, no street cred apparently.
Rear discs with inner drum for parking brake fitted, no problems though being quite small shoes drums and mechanism need looking at regularly to keep 'em up to spec which means removing disc/drum, expensive to build, good street cred....best of bunch IMO.
Rear discs with inbuilt parking brake, very good when working right, cheap to build but prone to problems, good street cred.
Rear discs with electric parking brake, made to alleviate the runaway problems and to assist those who can't drive, neither fix worked..;) work well till they go wrong but the punter picks that tab up, very high street cred.
Back to rear drum wouldn't be a bad idea.
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>> Rear discs with electric parking brake, made to alleviate the runaway problems
Is that really why we're getting electric parking brakes (which I expect will be a nightmare as cars get older)? I assumed it was somehow cheaper than the mechanical system, although that seemed unlikely.
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>> Is that really why we're getting electric parking brakes (which I expect will be a
>> nightmare as cars get older)? I assumed it was somehow cheaper than the mechanical system,
>> although that seemed unlikely.
I assumed it was just for the obvious refinement of being able to set off without the necessity manually to release it, and to enable the uncoordinated half of the population to do hill starts?
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They probably are cheaper to make BP, complete unit made at a component supplier and connect the wiring versus the amount of labour and parts going into a proper handbrake mechanism.
I do wonder though if increasing the force on the calipers for parking was part of the consideration for fitting them.
Don't want one though as like you i think they are going to be a royal pita as the car ages.
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Another thing with EPB - they usually engage automatically unless some condition exists to prevent it happening. So on my VW if I am stopped and turn off the ignition... the EPB automatically engages. Or if I turn off the ignition the EPG engages.
Except sometimes you find it doesn't. Car was stopped and you've taken the belt off. So something prevents it auto engaging sometimes. Not figured out what it might be but I engage the EPB anyway... normally do anyway. And check before getting out.
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Sounds terrible. One that sometimes puts itself on and sometimes doesn't has to be worse that one that just doesn't.
Never driven a car with one, mind. Could be the best thing since Swedish meatballs.
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>> One that sometimes puts itself on and sometimes doesn't
It's only not been on maybe 2 or 3 times... but that would be enough to cause a problem. I'll have to read the manual.
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>> >> One that sometimes puts itself on and sometimes doesn't
>>
>> It's only not been on maybe 2 or 3 times... but that would be enough
>> to cause a problem. I'll have to read the manual.
>>
On VWs the autohold does not work unless you have your seatbelt on, nor does the parking brake apply. went back to the car once and it moved when I leaned into the boot, leave it in gear now.
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>> Another thing with EPB - they usually engage automatically unless some condition exists to prevent
>> it happening. So on my VW if I am stopped and turn off the ignition...
>> the EPB automatically engages. Or if I turn off the ignition the EPG engages.
Not the case in the Volvo - only engages if you press the button. Turn the ignition off and leave the car and off it rolls. The button in the Volvo is the opposite way around to the VW set up as well.
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>> Another thing with EPB - they usually engage automatically
Not with the Astra. When I got an invite to Millbrook proving grounds to test a few of them, I kept forgetting to apply the EPB when I got out to go jump in another one. Good job the "pit" area was on flat ground.
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>> They probably are cheaper to make BP, complete unit made at a component supplier and
>> Don't want one though as like you i think they are going to be a
>> royal pita as the car ages.
>>
And I believe I have seen a youtube video of what is involved by a mechanic, in adjusting these motorised units - and it ain't that straightforward if in the hands of someone working to a tight schedule.
It's a disaster waiting to happen. However I'll be interested to see how electronic brakes with auto hold function perform on, say, the steepest part of Cudham Hill in Kent, to name but one v steep hill where a stop is generally required at a junction, for safety reasons.
I'll find out when and if I buy the new Golf MK7 to replace my current MK6.
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The EPB and the auto-hold function on a VW are separate. The auto-hold will hold the brakes on for you. It does not use the EPB. You can hear the EPB engage as the motor turns.
The auto-hold on my VW would cope on any sort of hill - it's using the disk brakes as if you had your foot on the brake I think.
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>> The EPB and the auto-hold function on a VW are separate. The auto-hold will hold
>> the brakes on for you. It does not use the EPB. You can hear the
>> EPB engage as the motor turns.
>>
>> The auto-hold on my VW would cope on any sort of hill - it's using
>> the disk brakes as if you had your foot on the brake I think.
>>
Yes, I realise all this. I also believe that when you pull away the Auto Hold releases automatically and so you really only have to use the EPB when literally parking up?
Still much rather have my realiable cable handbrake. All the MK7 EPB does is supposedly free up a bit more space for more ruddy cup/flask holders and when you roll back that nice tambour sliding cover, your're faced with two holders and cannot use that space for anything more useful, unless the mechanism contained therein can be removed according to one's wishes?
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Yes auto-hold releasing automatically (and seamlessly) as does the EPB. If I am stopped for any length of time I still put the EPB on.
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Does the VW brake hold leave the brake lights on? The LEC's does, which is a bit embarrassing on a wet night.
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I don't think so WDB. But I'd have to check. Can't say I've noticed it does but never thought it might do that to be honest.
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We really should not have to be asking these questions for a system that did not have been devised in the first place. There is nothing wrong, in this instance with a handbrake lever and cables etc. The successor could be unnecessarily troublesome after a few years, especially if problems ensue with age and that is not including the cost or repairs/replacements either.
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>There is nothing wrong, in this instance with a handbrake lever and cables etc.
Well as the original post in this thread is about failing handbrakes, cable operated handbrakes no less, then clearly they can be improved
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 28 Jan 13 at 19:25
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>> Does the VW brake hold leave the brake lights on?
No it doesn't - double checked today.
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>>Don't want one though as like you i think they are going to be a royal pita as the car ages.
My Grandfather said the same about indicators and electric starters.
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He was right, On my ole mans MG Magnette with semaphore indicators, you had to bang the b post to get the damn things to come out.
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Similar issues, but you had to bang ours to get it in.
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>> Similar issues, but you had to bang ours to get it in.
>>
Expect a post from BBD.....
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>> >>Don't want one though as like you i think they are going to be a
>> royal pita as the car ages.
>>
>> My Grandfather said the same about indicators and electric starters.
>>
>>
Not everything new is good you know. Quartic steering wheel?
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I've mentioned this before. Last April I came back to my car at the Trafford Centre and there was BMW 3-series touching the rear bumper and blocking me in. No one around but security had put cones up.
We'd been having some stress over a few things so when an announcement came over the PA system about a driver needing to return to a car I thought.... knowing my luck it affects me.... and it did.
Turns out the wind had blown the 3-series from it's parked space and gently into my car. So normal parking brakes can fail. It only took strong winds to move the BMW! The car park is flat.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 28 Jan 13 at 20:38
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>> My Grandfather said the same about indicators and electric starters.
>>
>>
Both of those items are well worth having because they make driving easier and safer by a considerable margin. A load of complicated and expensive to repair electronic gubbins that merely enables you to push a button instead of pulling a lever isn't.
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>> >>
>> >> My Grandfather said the same about indicators and electric starters.
>> >>
>> >>
>> Both of those items are well worth having because they make driving easier and safer
>> by a considerable margin. A load of complicated and expensive to repair electronic gubbins that
>> merely enables you to push a button instead of pulling a lever isn't.
>>
Precisely. I am often called a luddite when I question certain dubious advancements we have foisted upon us in the automotive industry but if I can see the drawbacks why cannot others?
In a way it shouldn't bother me though, because even as a private purchaser of cars and changing never later than, say, five years at the latest, faults with new fangled technology is probably not going to intrude too much into my ownership. However, how will these cars, so lumbered, fare in about ten years time? I can see the large dealerships groaning when they have a lot of cars in for replacement ebrakes motors and then having to do, accurately, the set-up procedures for them. I know that I wouldn't like to be a second hand owner of such vehicles.
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Why do you see electronic items as inherently unreliable and manually operated items as reliable? Doesn't seem to be the case to me. Have never had electric windows go wrong for example but often had problems with the old manual winders. And if they do go wrong why should they cost more to replace?
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Difference with things like electric windows is that they are not subject to years of assault by salt snow ice dust and road debris of all descriptions.
Presumably sealed in but even Toyota's mighty Amazon suffers with salt water ingress in the suspension height sensors, what hope components made by companies not under Toyotas watchful eye.
I differ slightly from Oldgit in that i wouldn't buy or choose a new company car with an electric handbrake because it only encourages them to make more of the rubbish, same as the no spare wheel con.
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>> Why do you see electronic items as inherently unreliable and manually operated items as reliable?
>> Doesn't seem to be the case to me. Have never had electric windows go wrong
>> for example but often had problems with the old manual winders. And if they do
>> go wrong why should they cost more to replace?
Very minor (and cheaply rectified) faults with the drivers electric windows have been the Only problems that I've encountered during the long ownership of my last two cars, but both needed to be rectified by the dealer.
I could reasonably sort out any faults with the old manual windows myself.
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Well I defer to those with greater technical than I have. To me as someone who hates working on cars and gave up any sort of DIY on a car the minute I could afford to pay someone else to do it I am not overly fussed how something works as long as it does. I wouldn't be fixing a broken brake myself whether manual or electric.
The modern computerised electronic cars seems to me so much more reliable than the things I owned in the past. I suppose time will be the test for electronic parking break systems but buying a car with such a system wouldn't worry me. I'm not sure why I should worry about the guy who is going to by my car for a few hundred pounds when it is ten years old either.
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Good point, CG. My mother's Renault 4s had sliding-panel windows like miniature patio doors. Simplicity itself, nothing to go wrong - only they did. The screw retaining the sprung 'locking' knob (the last one, a top-of-the-range GTL, had a second slot to lock the glass part-open) would work loose, allowing the knob to swivel and the whole glass panel to slip out of its track.
I see no reason to suppose an EPB will be a maintenance nightmare for future owners. The key is modularity: if it's a self-contained unit fed from the car's central wiring, it avoids the problem of running a mechanical cable from front to back. As any DIY electrician knows, fitting the lights is easy; it's getting the cables out of sight that takes all weekend.
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My problem with EPBs is that I don't see the value they add. You can make a case for almost all of the new fangled gadgets on cars, but not EPBs. Electric windows are more convenient than windy ones for example, not to mention far safer to operate while driving. ABS and stabilitysystems are major safety pluses. Electronic fuel systems enable an engine to operate more efficiently in a far wider range of conditions than you could ever achieve with a carburettor. CANBUS allows various things in your car to interact to deliver previously unheard of convenience or safety features. But what does an EPB really offer over a conventional mechanical lever? A bit more centre console space. Whoopee.
Last edited by: DP on Tue 29 Jan 13 at 11:51
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I would think the EPB appeal to manufacturers is it makes it easier to swap for left/right hand vehicles. There is no physical cable to be run to the rear parking break. I'd even hazard a guess it reduces the cost of manufacture too.
The costs will come down and we'll start to see these on lower end cars. Starting to appear in Golf sized cars. Next will be to Polo sized cars.
I don't think they're really needed and no advantage but we might not have much choice.
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But what does an EPB really offer over a conventional mechanical lever? A bit more centre console space. Whoopee.
>>
You have already answered that yourself.
ABS and stabilitysystems are major safety pluses.CANBUS allows various things in your car to interact to deliver previously unheard of convenience or safety features.
One word. Hillstart.
I still hate the EPB though.....
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>> One word. Hillstart.
The 320d has hillstart assist with a conventional mechanical handbrake.
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>> The 320d has hillstart assist with a conventional mechanical handbrake.
The VW auto hold feature does not use the handbrake mechanism either (i.e. nothing to do with EPB).
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>> The 320d has hillstart assist with a conventional mechanical handbrake.
So does the Transit Connect at work.
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>> >> The 320d has hillstart assist with a conventional mechanical handbrake.
>>
>> So does the Transit Connect at work.
>>
And my Ceed, it uses the ABS to maintain hydraulic pressure in the brake system during assisted hillstarts.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 29 Jan 13 at 21:16
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Iveco artics have hill hold too as do many automated manual lorries, in the Iveco's case its timed and the gearbox takes so long to make up its mind sort itself out and apply some throttle to the gear it eventually finds that the hill start has released and the vehicle is rolling back, about as much use as a chocolate fireguard. I turn every hill hold off without fail.
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>> about as much use as a chocolate fireguard
Always find this statement 'funny' as a chocolate fireguard could be eaten - if one existed. So of more use than the thing you are comparing it to surely :-)
Last edited by: rtj70 on Tue 29 Jan 13 at 22:32
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>> Always find this statement 'funny' as a chocolate fireguard could be eaten - if one
>> existed. So of more use than the thing you are comparing it to surely :-)
Can't argue with that RTJ, the Iveco hill hold would indeed be of some small use if it could be munched on.
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>> >>s a chocolate fireguard could be eaten - if one
>> existed. So of more use than the thing you are comparing it to surely :-)
>>
Eating half-melted chocolate - yuk!
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>> One word. Hillstart.
Hill start is two words. ;-)
50 years ago Mk 2 Jaguars (with then unusual rear discs) were known to sometimes run away if not left in gear when parked when the discs were hot.
Our latest automatic Honda will only start when the selector is in 'park' rather than in 'park' or 'neutral', which makes it tempting, when parking on the flat, not to bother with the handbrake.
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>> My problem with EPBs is that I don't see the value they add.
We frequently find, both in my car and my wide's car that my wife has difficulty undoing the handbrake as I have pulled it on tight. Her left arm is slightly weaker. We would actively look for an epb when we have to share a car more regularly in a few years time
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>>r that my wife has difficulty undoing the handbrake
Ditto my Mother. EPBs are a God send to her.
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Electronic systems (e.g. ECUs and such) are ususally very reliable and will often outlast the car. The drawback is that if they do fail you usually only have one option, replacement.
Mechanical systems (e.g. cable handbrakes) can fail, but can often be fettled back into service for free if the failure is caused by seizure, corrosion etc, as is likely with something exposed to the elements.
Electromechanical systems (e.g. 'leccy handbrakes) are the worst of both worlds. They are as prone to failure as their purely mechanical cousins, but often as unfixable as the electronic systems.
I've had plenty of ruddy electric windows fail. Often the same reasons as the hand-wound versions, in which case the same fixes apply (replace / fettle mechanism[1], runners, etc). God forbid a motor goes though, some of 'em are silly money.
[1] Or, if its a Land Rover Discovery, pop-rivet the pantograph arrangement back onto the mounting plate when the cruddy spot welds fail, as the cost of a replacement part makes your hair go white.
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>> both in my car and my wide's car
Best not let the good lady see that...
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>> Both of those items are well worth having because they make driving easier and safer
>> by a considerable margin. A load of complicated and expensive to repair electronic gubbins that
>> merely enables you to push a button instead of pulling a lever isn't.
>>
Wot 'e said.
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Maybe not cheaper to make, very likely cheaper/quicker to assemble.
"Plug into loom, connect switch" as opposed to "Fit handbrake mechanism, fit cables, connect cable at each wheel, connect at mechanism, adjust.".
Moves the complexity from the production line, where it's a fixed cost, to the component supplier, who can be leant on to reduce the price.
You have to remember that the "connecting up the bits and adjusting" part of assembly has to be done by people rather than robots and is the bit of the process that the manufacturers want to minimise.
Same reason that the Issigonis pattern of FWD and subframes became ubiquitous. Being able to ram the entire engine, transmission, final drive and suspension assembly upwards into the thing in one, rather than adding the bits individually from various directions and connecting them together in situ, is a massive assembly line cost saver.
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>> Back to rear drum wouldn't be a bad idea.
>>
For the love of God, no. :-(
Yes, handbrakes worked better on drums. That is their only positive.
Horrific memories of bleeding knuckles after changing shoes, kneeling on the floor trying to compare the intricate network of springs and levers in front of you with the diagram in the Haynes manual, that last spring slipping out of the pliers just before you engaged its free end and making bid for freedom down the road, self-adjusters that never did, however painstakingly you cleaned and reassembled them. Hateful things that belong in the past.
Disc brakes must be the only advance in car technology that is actually easier and more pleasant to work on than their predecessor.
Last edited by: DP on Thu 13 Jun 13 at 17:26
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>>When applying the handbrake, do they press the button in so as not to hear the rachet clicking?
I sincerely hope so. Anyone with any sense of decorum would. Just bad manners to do otherwise. May as well spit out of the window and utter oaths at passers by while applying the handbrake otherwise.
Last edited by: Humph D'Bout on Thu 13 Jun 13 at 18:39
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>> May as well spit out of the window and utter oaths at passers by while applying the handbrake otherwise.
I do those things all the time anyway.
But I don't try to destroy the ratchet and pawl on my handbrake by mimsily pressing the button when applying it. That crap is for ladyboys frankly. And it serves them right when they break the point off the pawl and the ratchet won't work properly any more.
What the mothering whassername makes people want to eliminate a quiet series of tiny clicks by abusing a carefully designed mechanism? Go on and admire the aspidistra behind your net curtains. Tchah!
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Very interesting to read about your problems with your adtras handbrake had an astra gtc untill Jan this year wgen I parked it on a road which was virtually flat with the handbrake fully on yet an hour and s half later it had gone a 100 yards down the road wrote off another car and a fence and ended up in a garden luckily no one was injured or worse have had murder with Vauxhall who seem to tell everyone the same put it in gear this is rubbish yes if on a hill or steep slope yes .I asked them jf this was necessary where ever you parked why arent we told this when we are sold these cars and why aren't there warning signs in the car remember these are only recommendations in the highway code the handbrake on these cars should be more than adequate to hold the car on a slight slope I also have an Audi A4 you could park anywhere just on the handbrake and it would not move an inch Vauxhall will not do anything about this untill someone is killed I have 10 witnesses and a police officer who all confirm that the handbrake was fully up on my car after the accident but Vauxhall claim theres nothing wrong with the handbrake I am not leaving it there am taking further action would love to find oit more on your problems if you want to enail me cheers
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>> had an astra gtc untill Jan this year wgen I parked it on a road which was virtually flat
>> with the handbrake fully on yet an hour and s half later it had gone
>> a 100 yards down the road wrote off another car and a fence and ended
>> up in a garden
So the road wasn't flat after all then?
>> Vauxhall who seem to tell everyone the same put it in gear this is rubbish
>> yes if on a hill or steep slope yes .
No, leave it in gear EVERY TIME you've parked up. Never ceases to amaze me the amount of people who rely solely on a flimsy bit of bowden cable to stop their tin box from rolling away. Leave it in gear as a backup measure.
>> why arent we told this when we are sold these cars and why aren't there warning signs in the car
Unless it's now been removed, it used to mention it in all Vauxhall handbooks. It's up to the buyer to RTFM. Do you really expect the seller to hold your hand to make you aware of what should be obvious?
>> I am not leaving it there am taking further action
Best of luck. Don't hold your breath though.
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>> Never ceases to amaze me
>> the amount of people who rely solely on a flimsy bit of bowden cable to
>> stop their tin box from rolling away.
Most of us aren't worried as we don't buy/drive Vauxhalls. This being one of the many reasons why not.
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>> Most of us aren't worried as we don't buy/drive Vauxhalls.
I'm sure the heap of crap that you drive has its own problems too.
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Fair enough. I did have to change a headlamp bulb two weeks ago.
I moved out of my glass garage when I ditched the Renault, so I'm feeling smug enough to throw stones. At the moment.
All in jest, Vx.
:-)
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Welcome to this forum Paul, we don't bite even though we are a bit abrupt at times!
Pat
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>> even though we are a bit abrupt at times!
Yeah, sorry about that.
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Hi paul just read your article . My wife had the very same problem today mate , on a brand new astra , again witnesses to testify the handbrake was on . Like you she contacted vauxhall and is , as we speak , awaiting a response . Going to email the Watchdog programme to see of we can flag this issue , watch this space mate , cheers , Derek.
Last edited by: Tish on Wed 9 Apr 14 at 18:41
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>> witnesses to testify the handbrake was on.
And also left in gear, as mentioned in the handbook?
"If the vehicle is on a level surface or uphill slope engage first gear" etc
Image extracted from a 2014 handbook.
imageshack.com/a/img585/4492/kdkm.jpg
Presumably its got a normal handbrake and not an electric one? (regardless which one it has, also LEAVE IT IN GEAR)
I haven't highlighted it in the above image, mainly because I forgot, but there is a correct method for operating a normal handbrake, which is documented in the handbook.
i.e. don't press in the release button when pulling the handbrake lever up as it prevents the rachet pawls from locking properly.
You should also depress the footbrake at the same time as operating the handbrake.
Good luck with your quest in trying to get Watchdog interested.
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So to summarize the billion or so posts so far:
- Vauxhalls are poorly engineered and generally a bit rubbish;
- Some drivers don't help themselves by neglecting to take an elementary precaution.
You might say they deserve each other.
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>> Vauxhalls are poorly engineered and generally a bit rubbish
Yes, so much so that unless I'm mistaken, Vauxhall are the only car manufacturer to offer a "lifetime"# warranty.
# 10 years / 100,000 miles.
You'd have thought if they were that poorly engineered and rubbish they would be out of business by now with a warranty plan like that.
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That warranty is a bit of a marketing gimmick though, as I believe it is only for the first registered keeper. My Corsa was awful but that was more down to the previous owner and my stupidity for buying it more than anything else. It was solidly put together.
If I was in the market one of their cheap run out Corsas would be tempting.
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You'd have thought if they were that poorly engineered and rubbish they would be out of business by now with a warranty plan like that.
Missed your comment at the time, VF. Vauxhall-Opel would have been out of business years ago without support from its American parent, which would itself have gone bust but for Obama's rescue package. No independent company could lose $18bn and survive.
As for the warranty, Rats had it right: it was a desperate move, trying to get one back on the Korean makers who've stolen Vauxhall's that'll-do market. And if a 100,000 mile 'lifetime' warranty is an expression of confidence, it's not a very, erm, confident one - although it is, admittedly, an awful lot of beige-cardiganed trips to Asda.
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>> And if a 100,000 mile 'lifetime' warranty is an expression of confidence, it's not a very, erm, confident one
Well they must be doing something right, or they wouldn't be in the top 10 list of best selling cars for 2013 and 2014
2013
2nd place, Corsa.
3rd place, Astra.
8th place, Insignia.
(source www.carbuyer.co.uk/reviews/recommended/best-selling-cars )
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Sep 2013
2nd place, Corsa.
5th place, Astra.
(source www.motorpaper.co.uk/car-news/uk-top-ten-best-selling-cars-september-2013 )
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2014
3rd place, Corsa.
5th place, Astra.
(source www.autoexpress.co.uk/best-cars/85843/best-selling-cars-2014 )
And if they are as bad as some people make out, then how come we don't see them the length and breadth of the Country parked at the side of the road with the bonnet up, or on the back of a tow truck? (or crashed into a wall because of handbrake problems)
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>>As for the warranty, Rats had it right: it was a desperate move
Hardly a desperate move, albeit certainly a marketing ploy.
However, my main point is a question; what mileage do the panel think is reasonable for a "lifetime" warranty?
I know some cars do more than 100,000, but what is a reasonable period for a warranty? I'd think that 100,000 is about right.
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I have a 12 plate diesel. It was parked on a hill, not in gear, when my boyfriend came back to the car it was down the road in a tree! Vauxhall have tested it and said there is nothing wrong with the car. We are so frustrated about this denial, we know there have been handbrake problems with this model, they even denied that too. We do not know where to go from here. Can anyone help? Thanks.
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>> Can anyone help? Thanks.
>>
Its not just Vauxhall, its happened to VW's as well. However, there is nothing you can do to prove you put the handbrake on fully at that time.
Claim on the insurance and get on with your life.
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>> It was parked on a hill, not in gear,
>> we know there have been handbrake problems with this model
So why didn't you leave the car in gear then?
I really don't understand why people rely solely on the handbrake to stop their tin box from rolling away. Most handbooks also advise to leave in gear, as does the highway code - especially when parked on a hill.
Not the fault of Vauxhall. It's down to the driver.
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 13 Jun 13 at 14:04
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I automatically park any modern car in gear.
Vintage ones get a chock applied as dog gearboxes can be a bit iffy getting them into neutral if load has been applied.
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It is the fault of Vauxhall as far as I am concerned, even a franchised garage's mechanic admitted that there was a fault, but will not go on record of course, if you need to leave the vehicle in gear then what is the point of a parking brake.
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Leaving "fault" or "blame" or "responsibility" on one side, I always leave any car I park in gear. Just good practice in my opinion.
On automatics there is a "P" selection on the gearbox which er, automatically, encourages the driver to leave the vehicle in a belt and braces state. On manuals I leave them in 1st or reverse gear depending on whether they are on the flat or on an up or downhill slope. Always have for the past 37 years and of course the cars have never rolled away or indeed suffered any apparent gearbox or clutch damage as a result.
Just seems like basic common sense to me. Just as checking that the vehicle is in neutral and you have a foot covering the brakes is when you come to start it again.
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>> On automatics there is a "P" selection on the gearbox which er, automatically, encourages the
>> driver to leave the vehicle in a belt and braces state.
I bet, many, many drivers of autos never use the handbrake.
On manuals I leave
>> them in 1st or reverse gear depending on whether they are on the flat or
>> on an up or downhill slope.
I always wonder what steepness (is that a real word?) of slope would overcome a car in gear?
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>>I always wonder what steepness ...
I'm sure someone much cleverer than me could write a formula to describe that. I would though be curious to know what they'd use to allow for the variable of the mass of the entering or departing driver on the resting vehicle ? PI sign perhaps ?
:-)
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>> On manuals I leave them in 1st or reverse gear depending on whether they are on the flat or on an up or downhill slope
I have no choice but to leave the LSEC in reverse if I want to take the key out.
>> I always wonder what steepness (is that a real word?) of slope would overcome a car in gear?
I would think the tyre/road grip would give out before the engine started to turn.
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Anyway, now you know why manually operated handbrakes are on the way out.
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>> now you know why manually operated handbrakes are on the way out.
Because car manufacturers are like politicians and can't resist monkeying around fixing what ain't broke? Something like that anyway.
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Still haven't quite worked out how to do a handbrake turn ( foot operated on, hand operated off parking brake ) in the Merc. I mean, I guess the theory is the same but I'm not sure I have enough limbs... Too old as well really I suppose...
:-)
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I noticed Saab dealer techs who returned my car to me tended to rely on the reverse-lock to park the car, rather than using the handbrake as well. It never rolled away, of course, but it seems sloppy not to use both devices for something as important as making the car stay where you left it.
And to the whingeing Astra drivers, if the car has a documented weakness in the handbrake, what excuse can there possibly be for not leaving it in gear?
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Actually, to be fair WDB, if I had an Astra I'd probably be secretly quite pleased if it rolled away and wrecked itself.
:-)
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Indeed, Humph. Astra drivers clearly don't care what anyone thinks of them, but even they might be concerned about who or what the car might run over on its way to the park railings or the edge of Beachy Head.
};---)
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"if I had an Astra I'd probably be secretly quite pleased if it rolled away and wrecked itself."
Steady on, Humph, I am about to post about the happiness that can result from Astra ownership! Admittedly, it is an 'H' with a conventional handbrake arrangement.
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On manuals I leave
>> them in 1st or reverse gear depending on whether they are on the flat or
>> on an up or downhill slope.
I wonder if the practice of leaving it in the gear facing the 'wrong' way dates back to fully mechanical Diesel engines which only had a pull cable to stop the engine.
In theory such a vehicle could start itself if the engine turned the correct way should the parking brake fail on a steep enough hill, no ignition system whatever required, you could disconnect the battery and it would still start if the weather or the engine was warm enough.
Hmm, those of us lorryists old enough will have witnessed a Gardner lorry engine run backwards...yes that isn't a wind up they really would run backwards...there really would be no escape..;)
I wonder if a modern engine needs to be left in gear facing the opposite way, no better compression, so why do we, and i still do in a manual, do this.
''''Because car manufacturers are like politicians and can't resist monkeying around fixing what ain't broke?''' aint that the truth AC.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Thu 13 Jun 13 at 17:27
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Well, in my case it's probably because I'm getting perilously close to being an old duffer who just does things because I've always done them that way and to hang with what anyone younger thinks ! What do they know anyway, they were still in nappies when I started leaving my car in gear, grumble burp, moan...
:-)
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Always left mine in gear when parked. Think its a nod to my past when things were tighter and I had cars with pretty poor handbrakes. My 83 Polo Formel E is one I remember in particular. Hill starts required the use of two hands on the brake
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The only time I don't leave the car in gear is when I know someone else will be driving it next. I don't trust them to declutch before twiddling the key.
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Failing handbrake after being applied = car problem.
Sure, the car should be left in gear/wheels turned towards kerb/etc, but once some poor kid gets crippled by a rollaway Astra and the insurer is picking up a £5m tab Vx might consider it a safety issue.
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Handbrakes don't work properly on discs. If the disc is hot when the brake is applied it will shrink as it cools, effectively relaxing the handbrake's grip.
I think my car has small drums for the handbrake. It only lets the car run downhill if it isn't properly applied. Herself gives it a forceful wrench but I just pull it up fairly firmly.
Note for Humph: Herself was trained by some instructor to hold the button down while applying the handbrake. But I think by nagging I've broken her of that appalling habit.
Heh heh...
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My Xantia and both BX had handbrakes operating on the front discs. Needed to be firmly applied so as to ensure it would not ease off when a warm disc contracted. In fact I think the Xantia was subject to a recall because of 'run away' incidents. Brake AND in gear was about the only useful driving tip my Dad gave me.
Oddly the handbook for the current model Berlingo says there's no need to put it in gear when parked. I still do though; it's a reflex it would take me a long time to abandon.
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After losing the brake fluid from a car due to a leaking wheel cylinder I took to parking that particular car in gear with the h/b off, as the garage told me the unexpanded shoes held the cylinders closed and prevented leaks.
I do use the handbrake now, but always leave it in gear.
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Walking down the steep hill into town this morning, I did a quick survey of the cars parked by the kerb. Six manuals, all smallish. Five were in neutral, the sixth was a small signwritten Renault van, pointing uphill and in what looked like first.
No kind of sample, of course, but perhaps the van driver had received some extra training and learned the importance of a failsafe.
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>> In our fleet of ninety plus company cars we have twenty six diesel Astra hatchbacks
>> and estates. A fault is occuring wher the hand brake (mechanical not electronic) is failing
>> after the car has been parked a while.
If you are the managing director of the company, could you explain, please, why you buy Vauxhalls?
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Co-incidentally, I saw a neighbour chasing his Astra down the road last night.
It stopped when it hit a stationary car!
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>> It stopped when it hit a stationary car!
Thank god it had a decent handbrake, or had been left it in gear else there would be two cars on the loose ;)
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Vauxhall Astra I - Vauxhall Astra - WillDeBeest
