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Unless they are employing extra people to erect the screens, won't they increase the accident clear-up time, and hence increase the overall disruption?
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Should help clear up rates when for example one lane can be opened to allow trapped traffic to go once lanes furthest from the scene have been checked for evidence.
Anything to spur the addicted to visual input curs on is welcome.
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I doubt the screens will help stop people slowing down. They will be an out of the ordinary sight on the motorway so people will still slow down and look. I think sometimes seeing what bad driving has just caused may teach people to take more care as driver error causes 80% of accidents. However these screens will give the poor victims some privacy from onlookers.
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A muppet and his/her behaviour are seldom parted.
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wont stop people slowing down as already said, and it will take extra time to put them up as people said. All in all its a rubbish idea,
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I wonder if they have been trialled. Might have been a good idea before ordering 105 sets, if they didn't.
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They only need to use screens because of the interminable regulatory delays in this country to the clearing-up operation. These things are done much more quickly elsewhere. They don't want the Autoroute du Sud shut in both directions for five days in August. They cart away the living, then the dead, then the blood and broken glass, busily behind cones, with coppers on foot making sure rubberneckers don't stop, and lots of signs and flashing lights to get them into the passable lane or hard shoulder and make sure they slow down. What could be simpler and more straightforward? Naturally survivors are interviewed at the same time to help establish what has happened. But it's often fairly obvious from the disposition of wreckage and marks on the road, plus evidence from any following drivers who have seen the incident.
I hate the way we do it here. The inordinate delays are not justified in any way. Once in a blue moon perhaps.
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For normal accidents then a rubbish idea and a waste of time surely. But for more serious accidents it might mean the motorway can be reopened earlier with the scene to be investigated and cleared behind a screen.
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Many years ago driving out of Malaga airport there was a queue to join the autoroute and crawling past the police cars in the lane next to us, no more than five feet away was the body of a scooter rider who was covered in a white cloth soaked in blood. Several policemen were standing around but nobody had thought about blocking the sight of him/her out of respect for the dead person or the shock caused to many hundreds of drivers and passengers who will have seen it. So for this reason screens would be a good thing IMO but rubber neckers will still slow down for a look even if there's nothing to see.
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They seem to be confusing two specific kinds of delay here:
1) Delays to the affected carriageway, caused by lane closures. Taking extra time to erect the screens obviously will obviously not help reducing delays. It's debateable whether having a screen as opposed to a row of cones will cause people to slow down less - but surely if the number of lanes is reduced then they want people to slow, not hammer past at 80?
2) Delays to the other carriageway caused by people slowing down to look.
Debateable what effect screens will have. But if you see roadworks or some obstruction in the other carriageway, isn't it sensible to slow down a bit anyway? Roadworks or disruption often has a spill-over effect, sometimes actual lane diversions, sometimes the proximity of workers and police to the central reservation. The HC surely advises if in doubt what is going on ahead, slow down as a precaution?
But the most sensible reason for slowing down when you see an accident in the other carriageway is in case someone ahead of you has already slowed and caused a hold up.
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It's not so much the slowing down, which as you say is the natural and sensible response to an accident but looking at the tangled metal rather than where you are going that causes problems and indeed sometimes results in further collisions. The erection of screens will hopefully enable drivers to concentrate on the road ahead. Seems a good idea to me.
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I daresay this has been prompted by the recent public disgust at people using mobile phone cameras to record the smash as they're passing.
I can understand the logic but I very much doubt if it'll reduce congestion by any significant amount. In fact it may well increase it, given that the screens do not sem to be hi-viz and will therefore need a protective ring of cones round them, thus blocking yet another lane. At least that will be the line from the "wombles" or rather their managers.
I also agree with comments about keeping traffic flowing. Same happens on the railway; incident occurs, whole route shuts "for Elf and Safety reasons", whereas in former times they would utilise single line running or use the goods loops etc. I suspect the loss of flexibility associated with the demise of manually-controlled signalling is partly to blame for this, though.
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No.
Any emergency service activity and flashing blue lights will elicit the rubber necking reaction.
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>> Any emergency service activity and flashing blue lights will elicit the rubber necking reaction.
>>
Before I left your lot (see I'm well and truly out of it now), one of the updates I picked up from driving school was the use of rear reds, rather than blues when stopping briefly on a dual carriageway/fast road...for precisely the reason you state.
The blues would/could virtually stop both carriageways.
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WP congratulations you're clean :)
The flashing reds are indeed more subtle.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Fri 28 Dec 12 at 13:06
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Some forces deck their cars out like Blackpool trams they can emit enough red and blue lumens to destroy the retinas of anyone within 100 yards.
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>> Some forces deck their cars out like Blackpool trams they can emit enough red and
>> blue lumens to destroy the retinas of anyone within 100 yards.
>>
Agreed.
What also annoys me, is the current sirens.
The old 2 tones, I could work out in most cases, exactly the direction the noise was coming from, and also had a pretty good clue of how far away the emergency vehicle was away.
The current ones, give no clue.
Thus I either slow down when I hear them, just in case their coming my way, or ignore them until I get a visual fix.
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In the 90's on the M25 I passed an accident where the police had used lorries to block the scene of an accident.
The traffic was very slow and I was 3 hours late for work.
Only when I got to work did I get a phone call to say that a lorry had failed to stop at queueing traffic and totally crushed my favourite cousin's car killing him instantly.
I am very grateful that I never saw the accident.
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Sorry to hear that Zippy.
There is a school of thought that the emergency services should just pick up, sweep up and get the road opened as soon as possible to minimise the disruption. Having had personal experience do you feel that it is right that a full investigation of the scene should be conducted to establish cause and ensure that anyone at fault is held to account?
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The more dramatic and hollywoodesque they make it look, the more people will look.
I think there is also a problem at night where emergency vehicles have so many flashing stobes it blinds passing traffic (especially in rain) so they have to slow to a crawl, then they have the chutzpah to wave anrgilly for people to speed up.
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>> There is a school of thought that the emergency services should just pick up, sweep
>> up and get the road opened as soon as possible to minimise the disruption. .......do you feel that it is right that a full investigation of
>> the scene should be conducted to establish cause and ensure that anyone at fault is
>> held to account?
If Zippy doesn't mind me answering it as well...
I think there should be a sensible balance and that a scoop and shoot is not right and neither is closing it for many, many hours or even days.
It might mean that government have to lean on the Old Bill to have the correct resources ready to get on with it pronto.
Outfits like the flying squad and similar have drivers who take their vehicles home and who can be placed on duty immediately and come flying in on blues/twos to emergency call outs. If Accident Investigators, photographers etc, etc did that (if they weren't already on duty) then waiting until the next day wouldn't be on the agenda...of course that would mean cops doing it, not civvies...and that costs money.
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In this case it was pretty obvious what happened and what took the time was clearing up the accident. We found out later from a police officer that visited my uncle, it was very clear that he was still shocked by what he saw on the day.
I recall that we wanted to know exactly what happened and how and I guess that other relatives in similar situations will want to know as well.
Funnily enough we didn't want to attribute blame - it was an accident. We just wanted closure.
Last edited by: zippy on Fri 28 Dec 12 at 13:12
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The investigations that go on nowadays seem to want to attribute blame and bring criminal prosecutions - e.g. manslaughter etc.
I think the authorities are using new methods to speed up the process by using laser survey equipment to map the incident.
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>>
>> The investigations that go on nowadays seem to want to attribute blame and bring criminal
>> prosecutions - e.g. manslaughter etc.
Accidents are banned today, there is no such thing as an accident, blame has to be attributed every time
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I've got no axe to grind either way, if the motorway is closed for an all day investigation then so be it, if its a blindingly obvious scenario and cleared up in an hour then thats fine too.
If someone has been killed or very seriously injured then i believe the police are right to examine every single aspect with a fine toothcomb, and its going to take time.
There could be a multitude of reasons for an accident and maybe several reasons combine, maybe reasons outside the obvious.
Personally i want serious accidents investigated fully by professionals, i don't want some manager 50 miles away or some political apparatchik piling pressure on the investigaters to rush things cutting corners maybe allowing some reason not immediately obvious to be missed, the victims and their loved ones deserve that, and if someone or some design is really to blame for someones life changing or ending that that too needs dealing with in order for it hopefully to not happen again.
If these barriers mean that for instance a fuly examined and photographed outside lane can be used to clear standing traffic whilst the examiners get on with the laborious but essential of job working out what happened without every tom dick and harry peering at them then it can ony be a good thing.
If nothing else it should be a bit quieter behind the screens so the examiners can hear themselves think.
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Two observations:
The first in respect of emergency lighting. I've never been able to comprehend why the use of flashing headlights by some starts at the time of the call and finishes on arrival at scene particularly at night. Pure overkill. The impact on oncoming traffic is to blind the driver. They should only be used as necessary to aid hazard negotiation and a safe response not as a sledgehammer to bully through traffic.
Secondly what has never been introduced is the creation of secondary freeflow routes for traffic. The road is closed. The traffic diverted and you are on your own. Vast amounts of motorway traffic becomes faced with all the restrictions of normal routes such as junctions, roundabouts and traffic lights which are designed to accommodate much less traffic flow.
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One wonders why so much time, effort is spent in finding the cause, prevention, and attention to surviving relatives, when the other 97.5% of annual UK deaths get nothing like the same attention.
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>> One wonders why so much time, effort is spent in finding the cause, prevention, and
>> attention to surviving relatives, when the other 97.5% of annual UK deaths get nothing like
>> the same attention.
>>
I think you'll find it's the opposite that has caused this.
Someone at ACPO rank worked out that traffic deaths were treated considerably more lightly than crime deaths, so more investigation was aimed at traffic deaths.
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I was talking about all deaths, from natural and other accidental causes, not just crime deaths - Of which there are even fewer.
No-one goes after the parents of of kids who drown for negligence, no-one pursues the makers of ladders with vigour.
In the potters bar train crash, they couldn't even put away the person responsible for such criminal negligence.
Motorist are chosen because they are an easy target and its easy to prove and convict (the law has been so tuned to do so) You have to admit there is a severe lack of balance here.
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>> You have to admit there
>> is a severe lack of balance here.
>>
Yes, I will agree that.
How many people in the massive queues throughout the year(s) had medical problems, were near the end of pregnancy, etc.
There does need to be a better balance.
The other thing is, on occasions a minor RTA is swept up..and it then becomes a major one due to the condition deteriorating from a victim...and there's then a need to play catch up, with a scene driven over by hundreds or thousands of people. How many times have Crown Courts, Coroners Courts or victim's families formally complained about the lack of evidence?
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>> One wonders why so much time, effort is spent
>>
Because .....
1. it is Britain, and
2. the jobsworths wearing their HighVis jackets can.
read all about it
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2253918
Last edited by: John H on Fri 28 Dec 12 at 15:27
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Typical Daily Mail carp and naive to believe it.
How do they know no other vehicle was involved until the scene is examined?
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>> Typical Daily Mail carp and naive to believe it.
>>
>> How do they know no other vehicle was involved until the scene is examined?
>>
Lack of second damaged vehicle, eyewitness accounts, CCTV. All that can be dealt with inside minutes, at least one lane re-opened (given that in this case the car went to the hard shoulder) and traffic could've been moved on.
For once I agree with the Mail.
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Unsurprisingly i don't agree with the mail, i can imagine the rags barbed drivel if it ever turned out that some twerp had caused a serious accident and cleared off, but in the rush to re-open the road valuable evidence that could have led to discovery was destroyed, they'd never shut up about it.
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in the rush to re-open the road valuable evidence that could have led to
>> discovery was destroyed, they'd never shut up about it.
>>
>>
>>
I'm not suggesting they should rush, GB; but this sort of thing seems to be the norm now after a fatal accident, and I'm not sure it's always necessary; especially given today's technology.
In days gone by one could accept that a professional photographer would need to be summoned to record the scene, which would take time; the whole job can now be done on a half decent mobile phone. Add to that GPS positioning technology, computer imaging simulation and all the other stuff they've got; roads should be open faster not more slowly.
Even the traditional bobby's notebook has probably been replaced by a laptop which can communicate with experts at HQ.
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Have you seen the speed Coppers can type?
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>> Have you seen the speed Coppers can type?
Probably as quickly as me despite all the practice I've had.
Some hacks are unbelievable, even fast on an old steam (non-electronic) Telex. But those IBM typists in the City back in the sixties, often other people's secretaries because only the supremo was allowed one in my department... I used to fall in love with them.
'Can you type this for me Sandy? Bit late, sorry, mumble mumble drink after work perhaps?'
'OK AC you old drug addict and sex offender you, but it'll have to be two drinks and it'll have to be on Thursday.'
Then she would belt off a perfect letter or document, like something printed, as fast as the 'best' setting on my computer printer can do it, no kidding, and hand it over with two ccs and an arch smile. IBM Golfball was a hell of a machine. I had one myself but could never do it justice. Bulky monster too.
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If it was a deliberate action the second vehicle is hardly going to hang around is it. Not wishing to stereotype or cast any sort of aspersions but taking into account the apparent ethnic background of the poor victims then could Honour Based Violence have raised it's head? We simply don't know.
At the end of the day it could simply have been a momentary lapse in concentration or a mechanical defect resulting in a high speed loss of control with tragic consequences.
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>> Unsurprisingly i don't agree with the mail, i can imagine the rags barbed drivel if
>> it ever turned out that some twerp had caused a serious accident and cleared off,
>> but in the rush to re-open the road valuable evidence that could have led to
>> discovery was destroyed, they'd never shut up about it.
>>
>>
>>
Something along the lines of?
POLICE BLUNDERS LET KILLER GO FREE
In an effort to meet targets, evidence was left on the motorway which could have... etc etc
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Thats exactly it Sooty, wouldn't matter if the old bill flew in with their underpants outside their trousers and used their X ray vision to see all, they'd never be up to the intrepid mail's requirements.
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>> Thats exactly it Sooty, wouldn't matter if the old bill flew in with their underpants
>> outside their trousers and used their X ray vision to see all, they'd never be
>> up to the intrepid mail's requirements.
Spot on GB and the Mail has a (well judged) symbiotic relationship with 'the public'.
Fifty years ago the adult populace had lived through at least one if not two world wars. Many of them worked in, or depended upon, heavy industry. Death by war or work accident in the mill, pit or harvest field was a familiar occurrence. The dead came home and were laid out in the front room People lived cheek by jowl with death and it as accepted.
Now we all live in a comfort zone. Any death other than by old age, coronary or cancer requires that somebody be 'held accountable'.
If we're exposed to the sight of a body we might claim trauma.
And then we complain about roads being closed to investigate someone else's fatal accident
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 28 Dec 12 at 21:06
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I wouldn't complain being held up due to a fatal accident.True about the body's Brompt.I've seen a few in a bad state you never get used to it.
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>> I've seen a few in a bad state you never get used to it.
Perhaps there are people here who can tell us whether they have been treated fairly tenderly by the fire service or police hierarchy after attending some particularly horrendous bloodbath shunt on any road: given leave and a couple of days to recover. My impression is that the authorities these days are quite good like that.
I sometimes wonder whether having to shovel the blood and guts off motorways and removing carbonized corpses from burned cars and buildings makes the fire service (in particular because I've seen them doing it) willing to spend thousands of the taxpayers' quid to rescue a small lamb from a rabbit hole or silly little cat from the top of a tree.
One has to assume that murder squad detectives - perhaps there aren't many and they move on quickly to other things, but there have to be experts - and police pathologists develop a certain callousness though. You'd have to wouldn't you?
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>> I wouldn't complain being held up due to a fatal accident.True about the body's Brompt.I've
>> seen a few in a bad state you never get used to it.
My Mother is 86. Her Father died in 1936 from blood poisoning after he'd been involved, in his role as transport and safety manager in a coal mine, recovering a body from the river Aire SE of Leeds.
He was laid out on a bench at the top of the stairs before his funeral.
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I believe you my grandfather and grand mother where laid out in the frontroom.Normal procedure in our village.The death what I can't forget is my little mate Harry who was killed in a car accident in front of me.I remember my mother cleaning him up in the kitchen.Harry's mother was to distraught.I was five at the time so was Harry.
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Rubber necking. Will screens stop them? - Cliff Pope
