The following is cribbed from an American site I visit:
Machinist's Workshop Mag recently published some information on various penetrating oils that I found very interesting. Some of you might appreciate this. The magazine reports they tested penetrates for break out torque on rusted nuts.
They are below, as forwarded by an ex-student and professional machinist. They arranged a subjective test of all the popular penetrates with the control being the torque required to remove the nut from a "scientifically rusted" environment.
*Penetrating oils ........... Average torque load to loosen*
No Oil used ................... 516 pounds
WD-40 ..................... ... 238 pounds
PB Blaster .................... 214 pounds
Liquid Wrench ...............127 pounds
Kano Kroil .................... 106 pounds
ATF*-Acetone mix............53 pounds
The ATF-Acetone mix is a "home brew" mix of 50 - 50 automatic transmission fluid and acetone. Note this "home brew" released bolts better than any commercial product in this one particular test.
Our local machinist group mixed up a batch and we all now use it with equally good results.
Note also that "Liquid Wrench" is almost as good as "Kroil" for about 20% of the price.
Steve from Godwin-Singer says that ATF-Acetone mix is best, but you can also use ATF and lacquer thinner in a 50-50 mix. *ATF=Automatic Transmission Fluid
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Might be useful, Tommo. I've had some pistons cooking in various unguents for a couple of years now in an attempt to get the rings out.
I can get rings easily enough, but standard pistons are like duck's dentures to find.
Might see if my pally chemist has any acetone when I go for my scription on Monday. I've got ATF.
I wonder what the old favourite, Plus Gas, would rate on the survey. I bought a couple of cans a while back...only seem to be mail order now. Certainly none of the local shops/factors had ever heard of it.
Ted
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>> Plus Gas
Got some in the cupboard at work.
Beats WD40 any day of the week for shifting seized bolts.
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I use a lot of UPVC cleaner as a solvent/cleaner. Smells like acetone. Cheap as chips from a UPVC stockist.
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>>Plus Gas
>>Beats WD40 any day of the week for shifting seized bolts.
I bought a tin of Plus Gas last week when, despite applying WD40 on numerous occasions, I was unable to remove a pair of sink tap innards to install a conversion kit. I usually find WD40 more than adequate for this type of job, but not this time.
However, just one helping of Plus Gas and off they popped. It’s wonderful stuff - I won’t be without it again.
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>>I wonder what the old favourite, Plus Gas, would rate on the survey. I bought a couple of cans a while back...only seem to be mail order now. Certainly none of the local shops/factors had ever heard of it.
>>
My ancient can with its tin spout is getting towards its end.
Spray cans available at
www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/p/car-accessories/car-maintenance-accessories/maintenance-fluids-and-greases/penetrating-fluids/?549774741&0&cc5_857
The UK now thinks W40 does everything !
Last edited by: henry k on Sun 9 Dec 12 at 07:53
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Great info thanks.
I've a range of solvents lying around due to my job in the chemical /pharma industries, these days I pick most of them up in France, where they are more easily available. You can buy acetone on e bay, cheap, just be careful what you store the final mix in, as acetone dissolves many plastics. I shall be trying this mix out straight away!
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Please let us know how you get on with it.
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>>The UK now thinks W40 does everything !
Which is both true and a shame since there are better penetrators, better oils and unless you want something that attracts moisture, no real reason to use it.
The power of advertising and word of mouth from those who have been taken in.
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I use Penetrating Oil. WD40 is not one..
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Ed China always uses it??
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>> Ed China always uses it??
>>
For what?
In our house it gets used for removing label glue, that's about it.
Supposed to be good for bee stings but the one time I was stung by a bee I didn't fancy trying it.
I just remembered - I used to fill the car locks locks with it via the little tube about this time of year, and it did a good job of stopping them freezing up. Remote locking has made that unnecessary.
GT85 seems to hang around a bit longer.
Last edited by: Manatee on Sun 9 Dec 12 at 10:41
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"Supposed to be good for bee stings "
Isn't that Windex
(film reference)
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>> "Supposed to be good for bee stings "
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>> Isn't that Windex
>>
>> (film reference)
Had to look that up.
Maybe when they say WD40 is good for bee stings, they mean getting them? Perhaps bees find it irresistible. In which case it's a good thing I didn't try it.
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>> Ed China always uses it??
>>
For what?
Every time he undoes a nut. Pay attention :)
Last edited by: Fullchat on Sun 9 Dec 12 at 11:20
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"" Remote locking has made that unnecessary.""
Not really. If your key transmitter or receiver fails for any reason then being able to open the door manually is necessary. And because nobody ever opens their door this way there is a much greater chance that it has siezed up.
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>> there is a much greater chance that it has siezed up
Absolutely. I ended up with a horrendous bill on a Mercedes. The top had failed so the boot needed to be opened manually. But the lock was seized.
Apparently quite common.
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>> "" Remote locking has made that unnecessary.""
>>
>> Not really. If your key transmitter or receiver fails
Good point. I'll dose them. I had to use the key on Boy's Panda last week when his battery failed too. Dead as a dodo.
Missed the opportunity for a long discussion on what battery to buy! Got a Varta Blue from Tayna for £34, +£11 for next day delivery. Pleasant surprise, Halfords own brand was £60 but I suppose they have your trousers off at this time of year.
Last edited by: Manatee on Sun 9 Dec 12 at 12:43
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No mention of Plus-Gas or diesel!!Very limited research.
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There was a lengthy discussion about the merits of WD40 a few years ago at the other place, after which I bought a large can of 3-in-1 Professional (another WD product), as the forums technically minded folk thought that this was the better option for lubrication of door locks, padlocks, etc.
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>> There was a lengthy discussion about the merits of WD40 a few years ago at
>> the other place, after which I bought a large can of 3-in-1 Professional (another WD
>> product), as the forums technically minded folk thought that this was the better option for
>> lubrication of door locks, padlocks, etc.
WD40 is primarily a water dispersant. The best use I've found for it is to protect garden tools for the winter after sharpening. It seeps nicely into all the crevices and stops them rusting. Only started doing this a couple of years ago after getting secateurs, pruners e.t.c out of the shed and finding ingrained corrosion on the blades. Doh.
For door locks, outdoor padlocks, hinges e.t.c I use a white spray lithium grease. It penetrates like a fluid then sets into a grease that lasts for ages. Brilliant stuff.
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Yes-spray grease is excellent.
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Funny how your mind works. When I saw the title of this thread I thought bathtub tom had got someone pregnant.
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Being a bit pendantic but torque is measured in lbs/ft!-not pounds.
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If you need a torque wrench to start a pregnancy, you're not doing it right.
Unless you meant to reply to the first post in which case, to be a bit pedantic, you should have replied to the first post ;-)
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>> If you need a torque wrench to start a pregnancy, you're not doing it right.
>>
>>
would a wench do?
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>> would a wench do?
Preferably one that doesn't torque.
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Brilliant. Now go find her. (0:-:0)
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>> Being a bit pendantic but torque is measured in lbs/ft!-not pounds.
>>
A bit pedantic, but possibly not pedantic enough.
Purists might say footpoundforce written as ft-lbf
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Ft.lbs is NOT the same as lbs/ft!!
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newton metres, if you please
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>> newton metres, if you please
Certainly saves confusion.
ft-lbf or ft-lb is energy, lbf-ft is torque, by convention.
In SI energy usually goes round in Joules, and torque in Newton-metres.
The / doesn't belong there at all.
I should know better, having done engineering with imperial units 40 years ago, but I plead guilty to using lb-ft and ft-lb interchangeably to refer to torque settings (which are a horrible way of setting bolt tension anyway).
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>> newton metres, if you please
>>
Nm is Newton metres. When the unit is a persons name it should be written with a capital letter.
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>> Ft.lbs is NOT the same as lbs/ft!!
>>
lbs/ft = lbs divided by ft
"ft.lbs" ?
eh?
Who said that?
Where?
What is the "s" for?
mass = lb
force = lbf
distance = ft
torque = distance(ft) x force(lbf)
Last edited by: John H on Sun 9 Dec 12 at 14:29
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>> Purists might say footpoundforce written as ft-lbf
I assume that the . which we used yonks ago has now been replaced by -.
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>> >> Purists might say footpoundforce written as ft-lbf
>>
>> I assume that the . which we used yonks ago has now been replaced by
>> -.
>>
I think both . & - are compromises for the middle dot, which I can't mange to type on this netbook. I looked up the ASCII but got something different.
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Here it is if it helps.
ft·lbf
(Alt 250 gives me required character)
Last edited by: Crocks on Sun 9 Dec 12 at 14:52
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>>I think both . & - are compromises for the middle dot, which I can't mange to type on this netbook. I looked up the ASCII but got something different.
· forgot to enter 4 digits - Alt + 0183 lbf·ft
EDIT - thanks Crocks.
Last edited by: Manatee on Sun 9 Dec 12 at 14:58
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>> Being a bit pendantic but torque is measured in lbs/ft!-not pounds.
>>
Torque is measured in lbs.ft , i.e. pounds multiplied by feet, not lbs/ft which is pounds divided by feet.
lbs.ft shouldn't be confused with ft.lbs, which is a unit of work.
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I am not sure if you can get a version with a spout.
I prefer that to spraying.
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How have we survived?
docs-europe.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/001e/0900766b8001e5f2.pdf
www.lfgss.com/thread38662.html
pics and views
"Swarfega Duck Oil is hands down the best penetrating oil you can buy. Even better than Plus Gas (which is the second best)."
Not so sure about it. The spec makes it seem a bit like WD40.
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When the unit is a persons name it should be written with a capital letter.
No, l'Es. The uppercase rule applies only to the symbol, so it's newton, watt and kelvin, but N, W and K. (And never 'degrees kelvin', by the way, as I'm sure you know.)
Last edited by: WillDeBeest on Sun 9 Dec 12 at 17:35
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A penetrating answer that should free things up for the future.
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These post-Revolutionary units must seem terribly new to l'Es, so it's hardly surprising if he's stuck in his ways. We can forgive him for being a bit rusty.
};---)
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you'll be telling us next he has a screw loose.
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I've transferred plenty of Acetone into tankers.Very difficult to dip by diptape even with cutting paste.We used it to soften paintbrushes did the job.
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From long observation:
There are two different properties required of a penetrating fluid when used to undo rusted nuts:
1) to penetrate as far as possible round rusted threads
2) to provide lubrication to ease the torque required to turn the nut, (1) having been achieved.
Provision of sufficient lubrication also minimises the damage to the threads by seizure and ripping.
Not all seized nuts are the result of rusting. Some are caused by cross-threading, dirt or swarf trapped in the threads, poor tolerances in nut or bolt manufacture, or severe stiffness in the tightening process leading to localised heating and seizure.
In such cases the lubricating properties are much more important than the penetrating, and ordinary thin oil may work best.
Penetrating solvents that are too thin may be counterproductive if unscrewing results in heat, causing the fluid to boil off.
I sometimes find that the localised application of heat followed by dowsing in copious fluid often works well, as the cooling parts draw in more fluid.
With a severely rusted nut an acid water-based rust cleaner sometimes works better than an oil-based lubricant, at least to start the nut moving.
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Aren't retailers now limited to the amount of Acetone they are able to sell in bulk to domestic users? Wasn't it something that was/can be used in DIY bomb making as an accelerator? re 7/7.
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>> you'll be telling us next he has a screw loose.
>>
:-D
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>> These post-Revolutionary units must seem terribly new to l'Es, so it's hardly surprising if he's
>> stuck in his ways. We can forgive him for being a bit rusty.
>> };---)
>>
:-D
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>> When the unit is a persons name it should be written with a capital letter.
>>
>> No, l'Es. The uppercase rule applies only to the symbol, so it's newton, watt and
>> kelvin, but N, W and K. (And never 'degrees kelvin', by the way, as I'm
>> sure you know.)
>>
:-D
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>Being a bit pendantic but torque is measured in lbs/ft!-not pounds.
Actually it's lbf ft..... if you want to be really pedantic :-)
Last edited by: RichardW on Sun 9 Dec 12 at 22:10
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Pah! Penetrating oils/fluids - Nut-splitter, hacksaw or cold-chisel most times!! Why try to save a rusted/seized nut and bolt!
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>> Pah! Penetrating oils/fluids - Nut-splitter, hacksaw or cold-chisel most times!! Why try to save a
>> rusted/seized nut and bolt!
The last one I had to soak was holding the crank pulley, chewing the end off the crankshaft could have turned a drama into a crisis!
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>> >Being a bit pendantic but torque is measured in lbs/ft!-not pounds.
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>> Actually it's lbf ft..... if you want to be really pedantic :-)
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Torque Talk is cheap.
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IIRC Nail varnish remover is acetone. Might also be scented . . .
How do they know all these bolts were seized to the same degree?
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For aluminium to steel corrosion - Jag cylinder heads are notorious- nothing beats vinegar applied regularly over 2-3 days. It dissolves the corrosion and penetrates. Penetrating oil does not work as well.
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Might that shift the aluminium spreader block from the steel underside of my espresso machine, do you think? Judicious brute force has done it before, but not this time.
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>> For aluminium to steel corrosion - Jag cylinder heads are notorious- nothing beats vinegar applied
>> regularly over 2-3 days. It dissolves the corrosion and penetrates.
The chemical reaction would form aluminium acetate and water. Two hydroxyl ions (strong base) of the aluminium oxide (which converts to aluminium hydroxide) react with the hydrogen radical of the acid because it is weakly bound, to form H+ OH-, or water, leaving the 2 acetate radicals (weaker base), which are negatively charged to react with the Al++.
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Haven't you sold aluminium a + short there, l'Es?
I wrote a magnificent answer about aluminium in my A-level Inorganic Chemistry paper. Unfortunately, as I realized later, I was supposed to be writing about a transition metal. Some you win etc.
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Penetrating fluid - Ted
