>> The future is BL...
>>
+1
That French industry is in deep doo-doo.
When you think they've habitually ignored the EU rules on tendering and bought their own products regardless...and still there's a problem...then there's a big problem indeed.
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We lost a lot of our manufacturing capacity over the last 30 + years - hardly anybody who lives near me makes anything although I have 2 x sons engaged in "high value engineering manufacturing / wealth creation" i.e. they do not make anything but their company does and exports lots!!
...........France retained a lot of jobs due to hidden industrial subsidies from Governments of all shades - cars, steel, metal bashing, shipyards.
France like us need to invest in "higher level" manufacturing jobs but this is of little use to the factory employee who works, for example, with his hands assembling parts and whose job can be done elsewhere for a fraction of the cost.
Locally a firm that in one form or another has been around 200+ years, employed 10,000 at a peak, bust reformed, taken over..........one part going for say 30 years is re-locating most manufacturing to Eastern Europe 60/70 out of the say 90 jobs will go. What will be left? Mostly Sales, Warehouse, distribution and after sales. Little consolation to those who have worked there for 50 years, as a cousin's cousin has!
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OK but manufacturing cars here depends on people buying the cars made in UK...............if export dies due to low demand overseasyou will sell a lot less cars with a Union Jack on them.
I have just bought a UK Honda CRV.............neighbours have bought the following brand new cars in the last 12 mths
Kuga?
Mondeo Belgium Motability
Mazda 2 Thailand
Astras x 2 UK - Maybe Germany as it varies with model
VW Jetta Mexico?
Hyundai i20 -India?
Mazda 6 - Japan
Fiat - Turkey
that's about the 25 x houses I can see from the front garden (Crescent so I cannot see the other 60 houses in the street).
So private buyers, here at least, buy foreign not UK cars.
PS Most people 60% say, like me, are retired....very few young families, 90%>50yrs
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>>What is the future for the French car industry?<<
Bleak. Ha ha.
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Whose going to stop the takeover of Europe by Germany, again.
History repeats itself, this time economically, I wish we weren't involved at all but thankfully Gordon Brown didn't take us into the Euro when he had the chance, small mercies.
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It is no suprise the germans are beating France into submission, germans do what needs to be done, the french stick their heads in the sand and hope it all goes away. You reap what you sow and germans are better farmers. It is not that Germany are exceptional but that many other countries in the Eurozone are exceptionally bad.
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>> It is no suprise the germans are beating France into submission,
Violently at times.
You don't willingly get into a swimming pool if a killer shark lurks there that had chunks out of your body several times before.
Agreed the Germans are hard workers, i've worked with quite a few and miore decent hard working honourable men you couldn't find.
In Britain those who run (own) the place are as far removed from the mindset of the people they could be aliens, could Germany be the same..;)
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It's not really surprising that French car sales are dwindling.
What with the likes of Korean car makers undercutting quite a few car makers now and the fact that French reliability is or was very bad, who wants to buy something that has design 'flare' over function.
I think Vauxhall / Opel are next to falter (VW boss did say a few months back that a large Euro car maker will fold in the next 18 months).
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You have to despair at the French.
I read yesterday that Renault sales are down 33 per cent year on year for November yet - and I would put 10 euros on this - if I went into the local Renault dealer (who has a forecourt crammed with cars) and asked for a discount on a new or very recent car I wouldn't get it.
A chap I came across the other day went to buy a nearly-new Renault last month. When he looked at the estimate for the sale he found that, as well as charging him for everything they could think of, they had offered him 5 per cent off the new price - on a car with 16k on the clock!
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Germany doesnt really need to attack France in any way, the french have taken to self-defeatism with enthusiasm. I suspect germans simply dont understand why the french do what they do, but then the national psyche is very different. I know from my family what the german philosophy is about.
My grandfather believed totally in hard work, not just that it was good for your personal circumstances but that it was morally right to work as hard as you were able. That is why it is never a suprise to me that Germany rises above.
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>> Germany doesnt really need to attack France in any way, the french have taken to
>> self-defeatism with enthusiasm.
What do you mean "taken to"? They invented it in 1914, and rejoiced in it in 1939.
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That is the key Gordon those who run or own the places.
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>>>French reliability is or was very bad.
For decades I've refused to believe this hype and so run some great reliable Citroens. The current C5 is a few weeks off 3yrs old and has been fault free. In the 2012 What car reliability survey (if you want "proof") Citroen beat Saab, Audi, Jaguar, Mercedes, BMW, Volvo & many others.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Tue 4 Dec 12 at 11:33
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>> >>>French reliability is or was very bad.
>>
>> For decades I've refused to believe this hype and so run some great reliable Citroens.
>> The current C5 is a few weeks off 3yrs old and has been fault free.
>> In the 2012 What car reliability survey (if you want "proof") Citroen beat Saab, Audi,
>> Jaguar, Mercedes, BMW, Volvo & many others.
Conveniently avoiding the word "Renault" there I see.
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I could be wrong and in a way I hope that I am (for all of the Renault, Citroen and Peugeot owners out there) but once a French maker has had a bad reputation it's very hard to shake off
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>> I could be wrong and in a way I hope that I am (for all
>> of the Renault, Citroen and Peugeot owners out there) but once a French maker has
>> had a bad reputation it's very hard to shake off
Its possible. Skoda for example.
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You just need to look at the reviews of the PSA diesel hybrid to see what is wrong.. (everything)...
As for reliability, 2-3 year old cars should have zero faults. I mean 0.
It's when the cars reach 5 years plus that French car electronics triumph.. look at the HJ technical complaints..
I do agree that the 106 was very reliable.. even Which agree but some of the 2.2 HDI diesel maladies when older show the perils of poor design and cheap components..
You can rely on the French for zero assistance post warranty: the classic sign of a company which does not give a fig..
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>> As for reliability, 2-3 year old cars should have zero faults. I mean 0.
never been achieved and mathematically not possible.
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Renaults in my direct experience can be an absolute nightmare but I just like to balance things up with the fact I've found Citroens OK.... so perhaps it's not French cars it's Renaults?
>>>once a French maker has had a bad reputation it's very hard to shake off.
And of course that is exactly the issue and probably why the current C5 has not been a great success compared to its undoubted looks and abilities.
Anyway must get out to look at this Alfa.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Tue 4 Dec 12 at 11:45
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I like to see surveys how reliable cars are after five years.Any new car up to three years should be fault free surely.The Focus I drive build in Germany just over two years old still no faults as expected.
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>> I like to see surveys how reliable cars are after five years.Any new car up
>> to three years should be fault free surely.The Focus I drive build in Germany just
>> over two years old still no faults as expected.
>>
+1
My post above crossed with yours.
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>> >>>French reliability is or was very bad.
>>
>> For decades I've refused to believe this hype and so run some great reliable Citroens.
>> The current C5 is a few weeks off 3yrs old and has been fault free.
>> In the 2012 What car reliability survey (if you want "proof") Citroen beat Saab, Audi,
>> Jaguar, Mercedes, BMW, Volvo & many others.
>>
Shorely shome mishtake?
In the Which? reliability survey (if you want "proof") Citroen LOST to Audi, Jaguar, Mercedes, BMW and Volvo.
Citroen did beat Renault however - another car I wouldn't buy!
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>> Citroen did beat Renault however - another car I wouldn't buy!
>>
>>
Nissan has been infected with the Renault gene now and I wonder how reliable Dacia will be.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 4 Dec 12 at 12:26
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>> Nissan has been infected with the Renault gene now and I wonder how reliable Dacia
>> will be.
The biggest turnoff for me about the new Dacia range is the Renault underpinnings.
I think the Scenic is a cracking example of how bad things got. The Scenic 1 was tough and reliable, and there were quite a few on the road. The Scenic II attracted loads of satisfied Scenic 1 customers and there were also a lot on the road.
I've seen four Scenic IIIs on the road. Ever. Which tells you all you need to know about the Scenic II
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The Car Mechanics guide on how to service a Scenic 2 was instructive.. Oil filter removal? Remove the front wheel arch plastic protective shield.
(imagine when 7 years old..)
Air filter? Remove the windscreen wipers.
Fuses? Which one of 3 or 4 or 5 or more locations? Some carefully designed to be damp.
All in the name of packaging as much in as possible to make a shorter nose..
Last edited by: madf on Tue 4 Dec 12 at 13:39
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ditto for the headlight bulbs as well. lol
This is a prime example relating to my earlier comment 'design flare over function'.
I don't know of any other car maker that makes it near impossible to replace consumable items (air filter, light bulbs etc)
It could be worse though, glue the wheels to the car.......
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I can only say that I must have been very lucky with my French cars, I am currently running a 207 which I bought new 18 months ago and hasn't had a single issue so far, last car was a Kia Ceed (also 100% reliable in the 2 years I kept it), but prior to that I had 7 French cars, Renaults, Citroens and Peugeots all of which were reliable, the only notable problem was the last Megane that used to need a new set of coil packs every year, but Renault replaced them FOC even when the car was 5 years old and the last 2 services had been carried out by an independent garage as they acknowledged there were ongoing issues with them.
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>> The Car Mechanics guide on how to service a Scenic 2 was instructive.. Oil filter
>> removal? Remove the front wheel arch plastic protective shield.
>> (imagine when 7 years old..)
On the diesel you could (just) manoeuvre the filter in and out from under the bonnet. It was tight though.
One major nuisance on ours was the engine undertray, which is attached with half a dozen bolts which pick up captive nuts welded inside the chassis legs.
On our less-than four year old example, one of the captive nuts had broken free, and simply turned on the end of the bolt when you tried to undo it. Therefore it was impossible to undo the bolt and remove the undertray. You had to remove all bar this bolt, then pivot the entire tray on its one remaining bolt just to be able to get to the sump drain plug.
Air filter and bulbs were impossible to access without dismantling things. Clutch took 9 hours to change due to front subframe drop being required, which in turn required most of the front of the car to come to bits.
It was a lovely car until it got to 3 years old. Then everything started to fail all at the same time. By the time it was 4 years old, we'd spent a fortune on it, and the end result was an increasingly tatty looking car that was still dying.
Apart from the undertray nonsense, at just under 4 yrs old, the gearknob had worn smooth, the seat belts had worn the B-pillar trim threadbare, everything rattled, and there were many ominous intermittent faults that were getting worse (power steering and dashboard being just two I can think of. Glowplugs had gone twice, intercooler hose had fallen off etc etc. And this is a religiously serviced, well cared for, four year old, 60,000 mile car which we'd owned from just over a year old.
I would only have another Renault car as a gift, and even then on the understanding I could out it before it drove me nuts.
Last edited by: DP on Tue 4 Dec 12 at 15:36
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>>>(if you want "proof") Citroen beat Saab, Audi,
>> Jaguar, Mercedes, BMW, Volvo & many others.
>>>Shorely shome mishtake? In the Which? reliability survey (if you want "proof") Citroen LOST to Audi, Jaguar, Mercedes, BMW and Volvo.
That's why I put "proof" in inverted commas... all these surveys are from limited samples with a particular ownership bias.
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ha yes statistics, massage the results to the way you want them to be.
Our governments been doing that for years. lol
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French cars just don't seem to feature on my car radar. The last French car that I found interesting was the Renault Fuego!
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I like some of the current Citroens. A colleague has a DS3 in a funky black and orange colour scheme, and frankly it's one of the best looking modern cars I've seen in ages. I also think the current C5 is one of the better looking mid size saloons out there.
Otherwise, my interest in them begins and ends with 80's and 90's performance Peugeots. I don't like the way the French like to pile their cars with technology, seemingly without bothering to check it works properly, or reliably.
I remember the first generation multiplex wired Peugeot 406s as the time the rot started to set in. Comic effects like the horn sounding in response to the indicator switch, for example.
Last edited by: DP on Tue 4 Dec 12 at 15:18
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Our 9-year old Citroen C8 has never let us down (apart from when Mrs BB tries to drive it on an empty tank ..) and we are delighted with it.
But we've got a petrol Peugeot RCZ at work which, whilst gorgeous, is forever having 'engine mangement warning light' issues. It's in the garage again today and the diagnosis is a new high pressure pump. Fortunately it's on a lease and will go in a year!
The reason the French car industry is in such a parlous state is not only the German work ethic, but the way they have stitched up France (and the rest of the EU economies) on the Euro. If the DM was still their currency their exports would be criplingly expensive and they would have had to relocate even more production to low wage countries.
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Very interesting point about the Euro. I wonder if it is possible to create a model of how the various Eurozone economies would have fared, and how their currencies would have fluctuated, were there no Euro in place since the turn of the century. We now know what has happened in the real world, I wonder if one could apply that knowledge and create some kind of inverse prediction? That'd make fascinating reading.
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A friend of mine had a Renault clio, she bought at at less than 40k and took it to 120k. She abused it, she roll it over onto its side, she skipped some servicing (apart from bi-anual oil changes and a new cambelt) and she then sold it to her sister. Its on 130k now and still going strong.
Its a top spec one with every single gadget you can think of too.
Mate had a 206 GTI which caused him a bit of bother (nothing major just lots of little things) but replaced it with a 207 GTI.
I am quite glad in a way the French car industry is in tatters they should stick to what they do best, cooking frogs.
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"they should stick to what they do best, cooking frogs"
twonking without condoms more like
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3 Citroen 2CVs, a Renault 4 and three Renault 5s, all good, but all that was a long time ago now. The only problem was with the Renault 4 which had a vertically mounted ingition coil that collected water and shorted sometimes.
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One of my best cars was a Renault 21 Savanna estate with 2068cc NA Diesel, very comfortable, never missed a beat.
Quite simple to work on too, it had a slight oil leak from the CHG so i whipped the head off and whilst in there removed the sump then bearings and pistons, it was on about 120k i think, found no wear at all, reassembled and it ran well and economically for years.
Had a problem with the rear shockers, might have been covers and or mounting bushes, found a rear end in a scrappy so changed those easily for next to nowt, just as well OE shockers were a rip off.
Still reckon the 80's 90's produced the best cars for the home mechanic to self maintain, whatever the make.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Tue 4 Dec 12 at 16:24
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My Yaris is now 9 years old. Apart from tyres, brakes and anti roll bar bushes, it is original. That's what I call reliable.
Well built cars do not need to be diy friendly. The owner should not have to do anything apart from servicing.
The Yaris is easy to work on , well laid out and the diagnostics are simple and comprehensive..
If Toyota can do it, so can anyone else..(except the French whose national pride forces them to reinvent everything)
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"My Yaris is now 9 years old. Apart from tyres, brakes and anti roll bar bushes, it is original. That's what I call reliable.
Well built cars do not need to be diy friendly. The owner should not have to do anything apart from servicing.
The Yaris is easy to work on , well laid out and the diagnostics are simple and comprehensive..
If Toyota can do it, so can anyone else..(except the French whose national pride forces them to reinvent everything)"
Built in France??
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>> Built in France??
Yes, some models are built in France, but hasn't affected their reliability apart from the handbrake design which is slightly different and does need fettling occasionally :)
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A French friend used to say that French engineering was the best, in theory.
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It's not often the fault of the engineers when things go wrong.Marketing has a lot to do with it.
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Was in Paris last week for a meeting and French colleagues told me Dacia is rapidly replacing Renault.
I noted colleagues turned up in a Golf and an X5!
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>> "My Yaris is now 9 years old. Apart from tyres, brakes and anti roll bar
>> bushes, it is original. That's what I call reliable.
>> Well built cars do not need to be diy friendly. The owner should not have
>> to do anything apart from servicing.
>> The Yaris is easy to work on , well laid out and the diagnostics are
>> simple and comprehensive..
>> If Toyota can do it, so can anyone else..(except the French whose national pride forces
>> them to reinvent everything)"
>>
>> Built in France??
>>
Nope.
A diesel so Japan..
Says say under the windscreen:-)
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Being something of a Francophile, I've blindly gone and bought a few French cars, just because. I've loved them all (apart from the disastrous Renault I very briefly owned), but I wouldn't claim them to be problem free.
My old C5 for example (just 4 years old and 30k when I had it):
All 6 coil packs had to be replaced.
Steering wheel "leather" had melted.
One of the front washer jets wouldn't return properly, so stuck out most of the time.
The PSA integrated iPod adaptor kept crashing.
The on/off button on the stereo stopped working, annoying as you needed to turn it off to reset the iPod adaptor...
When the sunroof was open, braking caused it to slide forward a couple of inches.
The automatic gearbox used to crash through the gears, especially the lower ones. Probably poor programming, as the same gearbox design works fine on my Mondeo.
The seals around the windows let in moisture, causing the interior to steam up.
Door upper edges rusted under from underneath.
The Xenon lights flickered slightly.
The front seatbelts wouldn't reel in without help.
The rear hatch springs failed, causing the bootlid to drop on my head.
The driver's seat moved around slightly, probably play in the adjustments.
The back brakes squealed no matter how liberally copper grease was applied.
The engine didn't want to start when the car had been sat a couple of hours. Warm it was fine, stone cold it was fine. In-between, forget it.
There was probably other niggles, but I'm getting bored listing them all now.
It was a *little* temperamental, I suppose.
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Ahh so that's where Citroen's fault testing mule went!
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Actually, after browsing the owner's forums, I always felt mine was one of the better ones. ;)
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Well I've just been reading various threads on the Alfa forum and you'd never consider a cheap 156 if you thought half that stuff could happen. Same as the HJ reviews. He will mention a fault where it appears he's only heard of one isolated case yet the reader might be led to believe that issue was a major risk acros tens of thousands of cars.
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That is very true. We also bought a C4 GP last year, and that's been very good. It's needed the rear air suspension replacing (under warranty), but other than that it's been very good. Much better than the C5.
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Ive done 9000 miles in my 9 year old Daihatsu since end of May and I did have to replace the headlight bulb. I did wonder at that point if it was the start of a slippery slope, but we seem to be ok :-)
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I think a lot of new cars have problems that you wouldn't get in a 9+ year old car, simply because they have equipment and systems that didn't exist, at least in a production ready state 9 years ago.
I don't actually believe the average car bought today is as reliable as the average one bought new in, say 2000. Too much temperamental, highly strung crap in critical places.
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>> I think a lot of new cars have problems that you wouldn't get in a
>> 9+ year old car, simply because they have equipment and systems that didn't exist, at
>> least in a production ready state 9 years ago.
>>
>> I don't actually believe the average car bought today is as reliable as the average
>> one bought new in, say 2000. Too much temperamental, highly strung crap in critical places.
>>
>>
>>
You are missing a key point.
20 years ago the average Japanese made car had aircon and ABS and electric windows and lots of electronics as standard. Most European cars had none of that...And Japanese cars were FAR more reliable.
You just need to take a look at a Prius and drive one to realise its complexity makes modern cars look 1970s..
And Prius reliability is top notch - probably in the top 3-5% of all cars.
It's not the complexity but thy design and implementation (like choice of and routing of components and where they are situated ) which makes all the difference.
And any manufacturer who sites the oil filter behind the wheelarch plastic shields so you have to remove the said shield every oil change has got to be completely asinine... or who makes injectors in diesels which carbon up in the head so they cannot be removed without special tools (or removing the head) or who uses aluminium washers in a braking system which corrode and leak brake fluid ...is an engineering ninny.. or whose turbo engines lunch their oil seals for breakfast...
I quote of course Renault, Mercedes, VAG and Renault again.
Blame the lack of engineering skills, and thoroughness and lack of money as well...
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>>20 years ago the average Japanese made car had aircon and ABS and electric windows and lots of electronics as standard. Most European cars had none of that...And Japanese cars were FAR more reliable.<<
To be fair my dad had a Citroen BX diesel and two XMs ( 2.0 and 2.0 turbo ) all of which had the mentioned toys yet were unfailingly reliable doing 30k a year in my dads hands for two year stints. And he drove cars very hard back then. He always said that compared to the 70's Fords he had, Citroens were japanese by comparison. Even the climate control on his MK1 XM never failed, despite the actual build quality suggesting it should.
I still wouldnt entertain a French car though, never crosses my mind.
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>> >>20 years ago the average Japanese made car had aircon and ABS and electric windows
>> and lots of electronics as standard. Most European cars had none of that...And Japanese cars
>> were FAR more reliable.<<
Twenty years ago you say? Hmm let me see, My 20 years ago cavalier has ABS, and Aircon, and Electric Windows, and it never went wrong.
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>> Ive done 9000 miles in my 9 year old Daihatsu since end of May and
>> I did have to replace the headlight bulb. I did wonder at that point if
>> it was the start of a slippery slope, but we seem to be ok :-)
I have done 45k miles in my now near 7 year old car (its got 64k on it now) and nothing has been replaced apart from consumables. (I am assuming pads and disks are consumables)
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I wasn't referring to equipment.
I was referring to the technology behind it.
20 years ago, you pushed a button to operate something electrical in your car. Two wires got joined together, completing a circuit. Current flowed, and the component in the circuit worked.
Correct function therefore depended only on the switch, the wiring and the component. Oh, and of course the fuse. If pushing the button didn't make the component function, a ten quid multimeter was all you needed.
Today you push the same button. A signal is sent to an ECU. That ECU may, depending on what it is doing, need to check the status of other ECUs via a communications line, and receive a determined response. If a set of conditions are met, the ECU provides power to a component.
Correct function therefore depends on at least one (often more) control unit(s), an uncorrupted line of communication between them, some firmware, plus the same switch, wiring and fuse as the older system.
There is quite simply more to go wrong.
From the operators point of view, you are pushing a button to operate an electric window or an air con system in both cars, and that system is operating (or not). The end result is the same. The processes, behind are infinitely more complex, and the potential points of failure are more numerous.
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>> 20 years ago, you pushed a button to operate something electrical in your car. Two
>> wires got joined together, completing a circuit. Current flowed, and the component in the circuit worked.
>>
You never owned a Metro, then?
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>> You never owned a Metro, then?
>>
Ha ha. I really should have added 'or not' to the end of that sentence :-)
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French car industry. latest info - madf
