Not sure if it is speculation, but apparently 2 young men died while racing against each other in BMWs in M1.
The stretch between J4-J5 Southbound was closed till late morning.
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2242139/Two-men-killed-M1-crash-collision-closed-motorway-junctions.html
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I think that while the full facts are not yet clear it's beyond speculation that some extreme stupidity was going on. Massive delays and still ongoing.
Unfortunately it's no longer viable to drag the victims off the road, neither can the public be allowed past for fear of what they may see.
One hopes that intelligent use was made of the gantries so that traffic could be warned well in advance and given opportunity to divert via A14/A1 or M42/M40.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 3 Dec 12 at 13:46
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>>One hopes that intelligent use was made of the gantries so that traffic could be warned well in advance and given opportunity to divert via A14/A1 or M42/M40.
>>
Disruption seemed to be widespread.
I was expecting to meet a relative at LHR this morning about 10:00.
He was coming from Cambridge but got completely screwed on the M25.
Needless to say not a happy bunny but we were the back-ups and were able to sort out new plans on the phone.
In the end I collected his daughter at LHR and met him at Hillingdon station.
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Looking at the wrecks of the cars you'd not think one was a 7 series BMW and the other a 5 series. I realise the fire brigade will have used cutting gear to get survivors and the dead out.
From the images I am surprised there were survivors!
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A 25-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of causing death by dangerous driving after two men were killed in a crash on the M1 in Hertfordshire.
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I wonder how a 25 year old from London affords insurance on either a 5 or 7 series BMW...
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According to reports, when their mateys arrived on the scene, a brawl ensued; they sound like a wholesome bunch of chaps.
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>> I wonder how a 25 year old from London affords insurance on either a 5
>> or 7 series BMW...
>>
The ethnic/religious group in question don't spend money on women or booze, and live at home in extended family groups.
Last edited by: John H on Mon 3 Dec 12 at 17:38
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How do you know "ethnic/religious group in question"? I can't see any reference in DM or Torygraph
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"don't spend money on women or booze, and live at home in extended family groups."
And how do you make that judgement?
Just asking.
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>> "don't spend money on women or booze, and live at home in extended family groups."
>> And how do you make that judgement?
>> Just asking.
>>
>>
Generalisation stereotyping based on extensive experience of said groups through my professional contacts.
Last edited by: John H on Mon 3 Dec 12 at 18:31
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>> How do you know "ethnic/religious group in question"? I can't see any reference in DM
>> or Torygraph
>>
www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/man-arrested-after-brawl-erupts-on-m1-as-two-are-killed-in-140mph-race-8375080.html
".... Motorist Basit Nasir, 47, who was overtaken by the two BMW cars and tried to help in the aftermath of the collision, said the scene was “like a plane crash”.
He said the survivors who were able to escape the wreckage began fighting with the occupants of a Mercedes car containing more of the group, who he described as young Asian men, possibly Bangladeshi or Pakistani. ..... "
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OK, ta.
But still a little surprised that you can generalise about their social habits - "they don't spend money on booze or women and live at home" - wonder what they were doing at 4.30 am on motorway after a night out and wonder what they had been doing 'til that time? Nothing to do with booze or women? Great pity they were not at home with their extended family - would have saved a couple of lives and a lot of heartache for many.
Just asking!! ;-)
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>> Just asking!! ;-) >>
Ask in a dedicated thread, if you wish.
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"Ask in a dedicated thread, if you wish."
??
Don't think I will bother, thanks all the same.
P
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There are some VERY naive people on here.
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>> There are some VERY naive people on here.
If you regard an extreme reluctance to make judgements based on race/ethnicity as naive then I'm incredibly naive.
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>> If you regard an extreme reluctance to make judgements based on
>>
volumes of incontrovertible evidence .... ?
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>> volumes of incontrovertible evidence .... ?
I suspect it's more volumes of selective observation swallowed by the gullible.
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>>volumes of incontrovertible evidence .... ?
I lived with a couple of Asian (muslim) chaps when I was a student, as as far as their parents were aware they did indeed spend no money on women and booze.
The reality was far from that.
And the majority of their friends (of same ethnic background) who visited also enjoyed late nights drinking and womanising.
What mum doesn't know can't hurt her (I'm pretty sure their dad knew they weren't snow-white but as long as mum didn't find out he'd turn a blind eye).
Hypocrisy of the highest order?- you betcha, but imagine a society where men in their twenties actually did stay with their parents and never drink/take drugs/see women (rather than just pretend)... there'd be a mutiny.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Mon 3 Dec 12 at 21:28
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>> What mum doesn't know can't hurt her (I'm pretty sure their dad knew they weren't
>> snow-white but as long as mum didn't find out he'd turn a blind eye).
>>
>> Hypocrisy of the highest order?- you betcha, but imagine a society where men in their
>> twenties actually did stay with their parents and never drink/take drugs/see women (rather than just
>> pretend)... there'd be a mutiny.
There is a pretty good chance that most of the immigrants social barriers will be watered down in the fullness of time, and some form of hybrid beliefs will supplant themselves as the generations evolve. Only the militants will stick hard and fast to the rules.
Its happened with all the ethic groups. May take 50 - 100 years tho.
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>>There is a pretty good chance that most of the immigrants social barriers will be watered down in the fullness of time,
Probably.
However in the medium term there is rather the opposite effect.
For example, a family which migrated to the UK in the 50s/60s and is still essentially led by what are now the grandparents, tend to be driven my the social behaviour in their home country back when they left.
Their own country will have moved on and modernized in many instances, but frequently the migrant families have not.
Consequently it is quite often that the family unit within the UK is considerably more restrictive then the same unit would be in their home country.
You see the same in British families which left the UK many years ago, or indeed Welsh families which went to Argentina.
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>> >>There is a pretty good chance that most of the immigrants social barriers will be
>> watered down in the fullness of time,
>>
>> Probably.
>>
>> However in the medium term there is rather the opposite effect.
>>
>> For example, a family which migrated to the UK in the 50s/60s and is still
>> essentially led by what are now the grandparents, tend to be driven my the social
>> behaviour in their home country back when they left.
Not what I have experience of. My Sister in Law is married to a son of one of the first windrush immigrants. Their kids (now early teens) are therefore "mixed race" (what a terrible term). The Windrush grandparents are now dead, and the family is now spread across London.
The grandparents lead is now dead or dying and the family are essentially British with a great Caribbean / Anglo saxon cultural mix - outlook.
I suspect however that timescale will be longer coming from other cultures. It will happen tho.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 3 Dec 12 at 22:26
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>> The grandparents lead is now dead or dying and the family are essentially British with
>> a great Caribbean / Anglo saxon cultural mix - outlook.
>>
>> I suspect however that timescale will be longer coming from other cultures. It will happen
>> tho.
>>
Top post. (Along with the earlier one.)
In the long run it sorts itself out. Of course in the long run, we are all dead as well!
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>> I lived with a couple of Asian (muslim) chaps when I was a student, as
>> as far as their parents were aware they did indeed spend no money on women
>> and booze.
>>
>> The reality was far from that.
>>
>> And the majority of their friends (of same ethnic background) who visited also enjoyed late
>> nights drinking and womanising.
>>
I wonder how many years ago that was.
I am familiar with the current student (18 to 23 year old mainly) scene at Universities.
What I am describing below does not apply to Indian Hindu Sikh boys and girls. In general (generalising, and therefore you will find exceptions):
Asian Muslim women will not mix with men of any colour/race/ethnicity, will not socialise in public with others, will not go to pubs/clubs/parties. During term time, they will sit together in lectures and in canteens.
Asian Muslim men will hang out in gangs of their own kind. They will go out to restaurants and clubs in their own groups. If they drink, it will not be in public places where other races go. If they are seen out with unmarried women of their own race, they will not be their own race unless they are their close relative. The men do not go out with Muslim girlfriends, they do not wine/dine Muslim girlfriends, when they marry it will be to a Muslim girl (if the girl is a Kaffir, she has to convert first), after marraige tehy do not go out or wine/dine their wives.
At weekends, they will spend time with their extended families. Rarely will these groups of Asian Muslim men go to sports events (except Cricket if Pakistan are playing, or Boxing where Amir Khan is starring on the billboard). Rugby, Football, Tennis - nah, never. If they go to clubs, these will be for their own kind. (Yes, they do have their men-only "sex" haunts, the hidden "mujra dance" clubs.)
Stereotyping, but you can see the evidence with your own eyes all around - London, Birmingham, Manchester, Glasgow - if you open them.
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I'm with John H on this one, and for the same reasons. If it walks like a duck...
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"If it walks like a duck... "
OK, how many types of duck are there? Have a look in your Observers' book of birds.
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>> Meanwhile:
>>
>> www.humberside.police.uk/newsmedia/police-warn-of-dangerous-road-conditions-following-a-fatal-collision-in-the-east-riding
>>
>> I suspect by the time of the day and direction of travel may well be
>> Polish workers en route from Hull to bacon factory in Malton.
And similarly if there's a train accident involving a Virgin commuter train to London that last called MK it's a reasonable interpretation that the victims will be white anglo residents of towns to the north.
A very different thing from drawing conclusions about random speeding drivers on the M1
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 3 Dec 12 at 21:14
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>> If you regard an extreme reluctance to make judgements based on race/ethnicity as naive then
>> I'm incredibly naive.
>>
Why ever not?
Why wouldn't you make a judgement based on what you know, what you believe, what you've been told?
Why would there be areas where you refuse to do that?
You can easily put in some quality control so that ill based judgement does not come to the fore, but otherwise it would be a perfectly normal human trait. You'd do it in other areas e.g. choosing a car.
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>> Why wouldn't you make a judgement based on what you know, what you believe, what
>> you've been told?
>>
>> Why would there be areas where you refuse to do that?
If I'm asked to decide/agree about when people might take a day of prayer/rest. or what they'd eat or drink then those, related to peoples backgrounds, are reasonable parameters.
If I'm using them to judge how they drive, what type of car they'd select or more seriously their tendency towards one type of criminality versus another then, while not ignoring background entirely, I'd be looking for much more concrete evidence.
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"some VERY naive people on here."
Me? You may well be right.
But then I live in Leics and have a lot of contact with the stereotyped people referred to above. You can no more stereotype them than any other racial/ethnic/religious group with regard to women, booze or living in extended families. Not to mention racing each other at 140 mph at 4.30am on the M1.
In addition, can I mention that in the Standard article it says "young Asian men, possibly Bangladeshi or Pakistani. ..... " There is a vast difference between the 2 nations- it's why Bangladesh is now longer "East Pakistan" (apart from the fact that the 2 nations mentioned are about 1000 miles apart). So they are not "The ethnic/religious group in question" as mentioned above. I won't go into the fact that both groups are racially Caucasians, so technically they are the same race as European Caucasians.
It's a very sad event - many will no doubt be mourning the deaths and injuries.
P
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Do you vote Liberal? Wake up to reality before we are done for. Oh! sorry. It's already too late.
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"Do you vote Liberal? Wake up to reality before we are done for. Oh! sorry. It's already too late."
Nope - never have, never will.
Over and out.
P
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Our Doctor is Asian good bloke he likes to go to Amsterdam best quality wacky backy.
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>The ethnic/religious group in question don't spend money on women or booze, and live at >home in extended family groups.
There is little in the way of speculation. Some facts exist tho. The driver charged is from East London, and is described as "Pakistani or Bangladeshi"
So what are we specualting about?
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They might or might have been stereotypical Pakistanis, Bangladeshis or public school twits.
What seems likely is that two stereotypical testosterone fuelled young men came to grief showing off to their friends.
Nothing uniquely ethnic about that.
But then I might have missed the point as usual.
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>> They might or might have been stereotypical Pakistanis, Bangladeshis or public school twits.
>>
>> What seems likely is that two stereotypical testosterone fuelled young men came to grief showing
>> off to their friends.
>>
>> Nothing uniquely ethnic about that.
>>
>> But then I might have missed the point as usual.
>>
I'd like to agree with you, but one of the few bits of evidence that we have does not fit the theory of two cars being driven aggressively by young men. They were driving BMWs.
We'll have to try to think of another theory, I'm afraid! ;-)
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>> But then I might have missed the point as usual.
>>
You certainly have.
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>> But then I live in Leics and have a lot of contact with the stereotyped
>> people referred to above.
Then you should know that there is huge magnitude of difference/tolerance within the Hindu, Sick and Muslim men in their attitude towards openly enjoying booze and mixing with women.
>> You can no more stereotype them than any other racial/ethnic/religious group
>> with regard to women, booze or living in extended families. Not to mention racing each
>> other at 140 mph at 4.30am on the M1.
>>
The stereotyping comment I made was was in realation to being able to afford insurance for a BMW in London.
>> In addition, can I mention that in the Standard article it says "young Asian men,
>> possibly Bangladeshi or Pakistani. ..... "
>>
The comment was made by a fellow Muslim, who would be able to tell from the appearance/language (and certainly from the names id he was given them) whether the men involved were Muslims from Pakistan or Bangladesh.
There are twitter feeds out there already describing the men who dies as "Bangla Boys".
>>There is a vast difference between the 2 nations-
>> it's why Bangladesh is now longer "East Pakistan" (apart from the fact that the 2
>> nations mentioned are about 1000 miles apart). So they are not "The ethnic/religious group in
>> question" as mentioned above. I won't go into the fact that both groups are racially
>> Caucasians, so technically they are the same race as European Caucasians.
>>
You can pick on the technical differences and nuances of race/religion/country/ethnicity all you like, but I am using the UK Census method of defining ethnicity.
>> There is a pretty good chance that most of the immigrants social barriers will be
>> watered down in the fullness of time, and some form of hybrid beliefs will supplant
>> themselves as the generations evolve. Only the militants will stick hard and fast to the
>> rules.
>>
>> Its happened with all the ethic groups. May take 50 - 100 years tho.
>>
Yes, it is happening with the South Asian group identified as ethnic Indian (mainly of Hindu/Sikh religion). However, the Muslim population from Pakistan and Bangladesh is an entirely different matter. if anything, that group is getting more alienated from the general UK population, and much about that fact has been written by The Independent journalist Yasmin Alibhai-Brown (who has received death threats from those Muslim men as a result).
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I assume you didn't intend typing Hindu, Sick and Muslim? If you did... well that's showing your take on all this. You were quite able to type Sikh later in your post.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 3 Dec 12 at 23:47
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>> I assume you didn't intend typing Hindu, Sick and Muslim? If you did... well that's
>> showing your take on all this. You were quite able to type Sikh later in
>> your post.
>>
Sorry that was an auto-correct that I missed. I have a great respect for Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists.
Last edited by: John H on Tue 4 Dec 12 at 00:22
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Oddly enough i have respect for anyone and everyone until they prove to me as an individual that they do not deserve that.
As for Muslims (seeing as there are some unpleasant undercurrents in this thread), during some of my work i have come into contact with many, in the huge majority of cases i have received open friendliness, respect politeness and decency that is often sadly lacking in many others, had my hand shaken many times, presented with a decent cup of coffee etc, a smile a bit of gentle good humour etc.
It could be of course that i treat anyone i meet with respect and decency, usually reserving my judgement of them till we have dealt with one another, a persons outward appearance colour creed etc i do not pre judge by.
I find similar decency and mutual respect from other mainly Asian groups, Sikh Hindu and Buddhist etc.
Could be that the old religious family values of whatever make arn't as bad as those who have no belief think, the anti religious i find the most intolerant impolite individuals in some not all cases, and in some cases downright nasty.
Maybe we're all entitled to be judged on our merits, not our colour creed or social standing.
And i'm a supporter of UKIP by the way...;)
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We've all got white bones grandpabennet.
:+)
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The reality is gb, that the basic human is a decent person...the world over....and it matters not what their skin colour is, or religion, or sexual preference or size or sex ...or anything.
It only goes wrong when some humans interfere, so religious extremism, bigotry and yes pokey nose in political correctness, which winds a lot of people up and causes problems where there need not be any.
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>> there are some unpleasant undercurrents in this thread >>
I should make it clear if it is not so already that I am describing what is widely observed as the stereotypical behaviour of a particular ehtnic/religious group. The behaviour I have described ( not wasting money on boozing or women, socialising and living within their own extended families ) could indeed be argued to be positive behaviour, and a trait to be encouraged among the rest of the UK population.
Certainly, if you ask the medics manning our A&E Hospitals near our City Centres, they might say that they could do less with the results of our boys and girls spending their money on a Friday or Saturday night boozing beyond their limits.
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>> Sorry that was an auto-correct that I missed. I have a great respect for Hindus,
>> Sikhs and Buddhists.
>>
One thing that made me smile. I was picking up some Skoda bits from a place in West London. A Sikh gentleman was already at the counter and talking to the storesman. I caught this bit of his conversation:
"If you are really that worried about it, you should put the Sikhs in charge. We ran India for you and we could run this place properly too. We don't want those people here any more than you do and we're the right colour so nobody can complain when we tell them all to go away."
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 16 Dec 12 at 18:09
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>> If you are really that worried about it, you should put the Sikhs in charge
There are jokes about Sikhs in India in similar fashion to blonde jokes here :-)
Pun aside, Sikhs are usually very hard working and brave. Their religion was originated from hardline Hinduism to fight with Islam.
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>> Pun aside, Sikhs are usually very hard working and brave.
Brave! I'll say! From wikipedia (usual caveats apply)
Battle of Saragarhi
The Battle of Saragarhi was fought during the Tirah Campaign on 12 September 1897 between twenty-one Sikhs of the 4th Battalion (then 36th Sikhs) of the Sikh Regiment of British India, defending an army post, and 10,000 Afghan and Orakzai tribesmen. The battle occurred in the North-West Frontier Province, which formed part of British India. It is now named the Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa and is part of Pakistan.
The contingent of the twenty-one Sikhs from the 36th Sikhs was led by Havildar Ishar Singh. They all chose to fight to the death. The battle is not well known outside military academia, but is "considered by some military historians as one of history's great last-stands". Sikh military personnel and Sikh civilians commemorate the battle every year on 12 September, as Saragarhi Day.
All the 21 Sikh non-commissioned officers and soldiers of other ranks who laid down their lives in the Battle of Saragarhi were posthumously awarded the Indian Order of Merit, the highest gallantry award of that time, which an Indian soldier could receive by the hands of the British crown, the corresponding gallantry award being Victoria Cross.
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www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/two-good-family-men-died-in-140-mph-m1-crash-8381576.html
".... One of the victims was named by friends as Mizanur Rahman, a former Stepney Green School pupil from Tower Hamlets who went by the nickname “Muzza”.
In Twitter tributes the other man was referred to as “Guljar, aka G-Man”. ...."
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>>In Twitter tributes the other man was referred to as “Guljar, aka G-Man”. ...."<<
Now D-Man, alas.
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They didn't kill anybody else Dog,driving at that speed on the motorway without the skill is a no.
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I really care not whether they were black or white or Pink and Blue striped. If you live by the sword you must be prepared to die by it. Tough.
Just to upset the wobbly belly brigade before they go up the wooden hill to bed, I and others, some here, are sick to death of these folk, who in reality are guests in our country (I DON'T CARE IF THEY WERE BORN HERE) who cannot behave. The worst are the eastern Europeans who seem to put a very low value on life. Someone help us when Croatia comes on board. WW3 from the Balkans anyone?
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>> reality are guests in our country (I DON'T CARE IF THEY WERE BORN HERE)
Not guests then are they. Never had any agro before they arrived did we. Remind me, when were our prison built?
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My scowly Martin.
I'll explain my rationale tomorrow.
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You can't turn the clock back Martin and you have to accept the way it is.I go back to see my sister regulary in Rotterdam and the streets I grew up in and played are changed over the years.Every nationality under the sun and they don't live all peacefull together.Son in law is East European well educated has a masters degree and leads a small team of social workers.He was born in Poznan Poland.He has a high value on life and speaks perfect English.He also speaks fluent Russian it depends what your background is the way you behave.
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You Sir, are always the voice of reason. There's too much to debate here, but you're so right. One cannot go back. It clearly makes me so aggrieved though, but still I think that you and indeed others, know where I am coming from (to coin a modern phrase). If only there could be peace eh?
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>>They didn't kill anybody else Dog,driving at that speed on the motorway without the skill is a no<<
We were all young once Dutchie, a fair few of us have done stupid things in our time, but most of us get away with it.
But for the grace of God, go I.
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Death in M1 today - Bromptonaut
