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Why is there a trend for an ever-increasing tyre width on new cars? Most car buyers seem to forget that the cost of tyres increases as the width increases.
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Beats me! I remember when a 70 profile was considered a low one. Can't see the point at all, I think they look awful.
A mechanic I know says you could drive over a coin and be able to tell whether it was heads or tails. :)
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>>A mechanic I know says you could drive over a coin and be able to tell whether it was heads or tails. :)<<
The old ones are the best eh? They used to say that if a Morgan driver ran over a fag end he could tell whether it was plain or tipped...
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May be because cars are heavier now and they need more surface area to support without putting too much pressure on tyres.
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Profile isn't the same as width.
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>>Why is there a trend
Because it's a trend. In simple terms.
Why do many people dress a certain way, have their hair cut a certain way or choose to decorate or furnish their houses a certain way depending upon the latest fashion? Because it's a trend.
Mirroring others or wishing to be viewed as part of a peer group is a strong human instinct.
Residual primeval monkey brain stuff which allows marketeers to make or take commercial opportunities and sometimes advantage. More or less nothing more complex than that.
No one actually needs the latest mobile phone for example but there are enough who genuinely want one for similar reasons as they want wide tyres.
Just the way it is. It's sociologically more convenient to hold or express the same values as your peers. Doesn't always make logical sense but then if you really stop to consider a lot of human behaviour then neither does much of it.
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Tyre width is inversely proportional to girth, and wheel diameter is inversely proportional to length.
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Never mind the quality feel the width !
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I can't accurately quantify it, but since I put narrower tyres on my bicycle a couple of weeks ago, 700x28c from 700x35c and blew them up to the recommended maximum, it feels easier to pedal. I would imagine that, in a car, this would translate to improved mpg.
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Generally depends on the size and shape of contact patch - increase PSI = smaller contact patch.
Also has a very slight reduction in aerodynamic drag as tyre width shrinks.
Changing from knobbly tyres at 40psi to semi-slicks at 80psi on my MTB makes is much easier to keep up the speed.
Crap on the mud though :-)
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It makes a huge difference on a pushbike. I run my back tyre on my hardtail MTB ( which is almost exclusively used significantly off road ) at 30psi on knobblies. Any higher and it spins out on loose surface steep climbs. Front tyre I keep at 40psi. Any lower and it gets less whippy.
If I'm on the road it makes a big difference if you pump them up much harder. Narrower slicks are even easier in those conditions as you say.
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>> If I'm on the road it makes a big difference if you pump them up
>> much harder. Narrower slicks are even easier in those conditions as you say.
>>
Tyre pressure on a bike makes a very noticeable difference to rolling resistance, I habitually run my road bike at 70PSI and my MB at 45PSI since it is never troubled by more than a gravel track.
Interestingly the tread pattern on a road bike is ostensibly there for decoration, water is displaced by the pressure of the contact patch and so (counter-intuitively) narrow road tyres perform better at higher pressures in the wet.... On an MB it's different as the tyres have tractor-like treads and are not actually that good on a wet road IMHO.
I too have noticed this trend towards wider car tyres e.g. our new 'cooking' Golf VI has 205x16 tyres compared to SWMBO's Golf IV GTi 12 years ago upon which these were the upgraded size along with sports suspension. A corollary is that the price of these wider tyres appears (to me) to have fallen a little as demand has increased ? I would observe that the ride is pretty decent on these 55 section (I think) tyres too.
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>> >>Why is there a trend
>>
>>
>> Just the way it is. It's sociologically more convenient to hold or express the same
>> values as your peers.
>>
>>
I have never held the same values as my peers.
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>> I have never held the same values as my peers.
>>
Likewise, conforming to a uniform, whether clothing or outlook, cloning, has never been a yearning either.
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It's hard not to conform even when you're unfashionable. Just look at the ubiquity of the fleece, and the cafferteeairy (I have both of course).
Only the Naked Rambler really bucks the trends, and they keep locking him up.
Mao suits for all (Humph would still have a snappier one).
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Indeed some don't Cliff and thank goodness for that but enough do to create or perhaps, more accurately, allow trends to establish.
I might write a book about it one day. Or not.
:-)
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Despite all the waffle about bespoke manufacturing, and getting 'just the spec you want', marketers/manufacturers produce products for populations not individuals.
So one can be an individual as one likes but if you don't fit into a specific bracket it's going to cost.
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Yup, I could tell you with a degree of accuracy for example what young fashion concious people will be wearing in two years time even though most of them don't know it yet.
It's a machine, just like any consumer goods industry. We are told what to like or desire and eventually enough will decide that they do. People are extraordinarily biddable and are comforted by identification with sociological markers which paradoxically strengthen their belief in their own individualism.
Sounds sinister but it needn't be regarded as so. Anything which acts as a glue on society is generally healthy enough. Extreme individualism can, although of course not always, spawn a feeling of being disenfranchised which also has its own drawbacks.
Most non-commodity purchases are inspired by some combination of a desire to improve or re-state sexual attractiveness, status, power or membership of a group. If you look closely at most successful advertising or other marketing campaigns they focus on some element of those to a greater or lesser degree.
Fascinating subject, well, it is to me anyway. Probably bores the pants off anyone sensible !
:-)
Last edited by: Humph D'Bout on Sun 11 Nov 12 at 10:57
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>> Yup, I could tell you with a degree of accuracy for example what young fashion
>> concious people will be wearing in two years time even though most of them don't
>> know it yet.
Tell us now, so that we can beat them to it.
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>> Tell us now, so that we can beat them to it.
>>
Yes indeed, if i happen to own anything that resembles current or likely soon fashion i'll bin it.
Fashion adherence is for clones, individuals dress as they please, long live individuality.
:-)
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"I have never held the same values as my peers."
Ah but you do, we all do. I rather suspect that your values views and lifestyle are not radically different from the majority of your family and friends. Hippies associate with hippies, criminals have criminal friends and the middle classes shop together in Waitrose and listen to Radio 4.
We all like to think we are independent thinkers. Evidence suggests we are not.
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>> Hippies associate with hippies ......
I associate with hippies.
>> .... criminals have criminal friends
I have criminal friends.
>> .... and the middle classes shop together in Waitrose .....
I shop in Waitrose.
All in all, I must be an enigma.
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>> >>Why is there a trend .............
>>
>> Because it's a trend. In simple terms.
>>
>> Why do many people dress a certain way, have their hair cut a certain way
>> or choose to decorate or furnish their houses a certain way depending upon the latest
>> fashion? Because it's a trend.
The way you dress, the way you have your hair cut, and the way you decorate your house are all your decisions. However, the width of tyres is decided by the car manufacturer. The car buyer has no say in the matter ~ other than not to buy the car at all.
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>> May be because cars are heavier now and they need more surface area to support
>> without putting too much pressure on tyres.
>>
>>
My Rover 16 weighed nearly 50% more than my Yaris. The Yaris tyres were twice as wide...
Just look at car brochures. Same engine, wider wheels = worse fuel consumption. Very marked on hybrids .. see the Yaris hybrid. Top of range T Spirit does 5% less mpg due to wider tyres. Tyres costs double to replace.
Most buyers are dumb and don't notice.
Last edited by: madf on Fri 9 Nov 12 at 16:52
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Apples versus oranges comparison alert !
It is said, that alloy wheels were developed to give a low weight advantage. Try lifting one of the 18"- 265 width tyre beggars from my car and holding it for any length of time and you'd have a flipping seizure.
The 135 section shod steel jobs on our old Mk 1 Panda could be lifted with one finger.
I kind of miss that car.
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>> It is said, that alloy wheels were developed to give a low weight advantage. Try
>> lifting one of the 18"- 265 width tyre beggars from my car and holding it
>> for any length of time and you'd have a flipping seizure.
>>
Someone on one of the MG forums with too much time on his hands weighed his selection of MGB wheels.
Lightest were wires, then steels. Heaviest were the alloys (both stock ones and a minilite replica).
At one time, wires were de rigeur for racing, until horsepower got to the stage where the hub would go round leaving the rim stationary amidst a pile of broken spokes.
Alloys were the solution to that one, but you have to remember that actual racing alloys are very different beasts in terms of the actual alloy used to road-going ones. Very light, but also far too fragile for the wear and tear of general road use.
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>> ... but you have to remember that actual racing alloys are very different beasts in terms of
>> the actual alloy used to road-going ones.Very light, but also far too fragile for the wear and
>> tear of general road use.
My friend found that out the hard way. He took some racing alloys from his historic F3 car to the local tyre shop to have the tyres changed.
They crushed in the machine before the tyre beads released from the rim. A very expensive mistake!
Last edited by: Crocks on Mon 12 Nov 12 at 11:16
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>> Most buyers are dumb and don't notice.
>>
It's a big issue for company car drivers as bigger/wider wheels can change the tax bracket of the car.
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My car on wide 18" tyres and a 170PS diesel engine (so extra 3% BIK) has emissions of 129g/km. I didn't think that was too bad. My next car will be lower for emissions (just under 2 years to replace it) but the goal posts will move for taxation.
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>> Why is there a trend for an ever-increasing tyre width on new cars?
Disregarding sidewall profile, I suspect wider treads permit increased cornering speeds.
Straying slightly, how come car tyres don't squeal on corners like they used to 10 or 20 years ago? I mean you never hear screeching or squeaking tyres any more. My Skoda (Y reg, 185/70R14s) used to squeal its tyres on the roundabout outside the leisure park in Bedford (where a U-turn was necessary to enter the park) even at 10mph. Got quite embarrassing at times.
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Not trying hard enough Dave. Take 100 lines, I must...
:-)
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"Straying slightly, how come car tyres don't squeal on corners like they used to 10 or 20 years ago? I mean you never hear screeching or squeaking tyres any more"
Err: round here if you go round a corner fast in winter, you are likely to slide off the road before youur tyres squeal.
A combination of damp/leaves/cow muck and people with horses ensure most country roads - with no traffic and lots of corners - are lethal in winter if driven fast.
As for main roads, traffic means fast cornering = accidents. Does not prevent some plonkers trying to do 50mph in a 40mph limit and pass on blind bends with unbroken white lines in the middle of the road.
The perpetrators either learn or die wrapped round a tree... (We have some of the worst roads for accidents and deaths in the UK within a 30 miles radius.
(although most of the fatalities are bikers )
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>> Why is there a trend for an ever-increasing tyre width on new cars?
Fashion, I remember reading about Audi when they brought the S Line spec to the UK, it outstripped the supply by quite a bit. I think 3x more buyers asked for it than they had planned for.
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The 2CVs and Renault 4s with skinny wheels and tyres that are left around here seem to make an excellent job of being mobile in snow and mud every winter - unlike the huge-wheeled 4x4s (usually owned by expat Brits).
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Yep, 2WD Mk1 Pandas were great in the snow. Lightweight, low powered, skinny tyres, good ground clearance. Cheap old car of choice for impoverished instructors / workers in ski resorts at one time. Appropos of nothing really.
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The thing is : wider tyres = more costly tyres. And wider tyres = more chance that fewer manufacturers will make them in the profile chosen by the (car) manufacturer.
So a great potential for profit increases in the aftermarket - which I suspect is where most tyre makers make their profits..
If you try to buty a common tyre eg 175 65 R14 - there are at least 20 choices of maker.
If you try to buy 215 50 R16, far fewer..
In my researches into buying a new Yaris/Jazz, it became painfully apparent. Michelin tyres from ATS were approx 70% dearer for the higher spec tyres..
Any talk of better handling is risible: tyre noise: worse, tyre reaction on bumps: worse, fuel consumption: worse.
There is no way any normal driver could use any potential improved cornering on normal roads and traffic.
Did I mention wide tyres make cars undriveable in snow.. and snow tyres extremely expensive ?
It's fashion for muppets and the gullible...
Edit : and of course wide wheels and tyres are more easily kerbed and mean wider turning circles.
I rest my case.
Last edited by: madf on Sun 11 Nov 12 at 11:34
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It's fashion for muppets and the gullible...
...and for the legend-in-his-own-mind driver, to whom such things are confirmation of his heroic status. I don't mean this definition to cover either of the contributors named in the next paragraph.
Nyx's thread about snorting-monster saloons caused me to learn a bit about the AMG E55 and E63. I learned (1) that I rather fancy one, and (2) that they wear the same widths and profiles as Humph's four-cylinder E250 Sport, I suspect because that's the biggest that will fit under the E's bodywork and still steer. So if it's all about handling horsepower, either the 500hp car is underequipped or the 200hp one has been dressed up by the marketing department.
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>>>>Fashion, I remember reading about Audi when they brought the S Line spec to the UK, it outstripped the supply by quite a bit. I think 3x more buyers asked for it than they had planned for.
Same with BMW. Compare the number of harder suspended, wider tyred, M Sport 3 series to the smaller wheeled, softer riding SE models and 10 to 1 wouldn't be far out I reckon.
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>> >> Why is there a trend for an ever-increasing tyre width on new cars?
>>
>> Fashion, ...............
I thought that "fashion" was consumer-led. If a lot of people have their hair cut in a similar style it becomes a fashion. However, the tyre width fitted as standard is dictated by the car manufacturer. When buying a new car, nobody actually asks for a certain tyre width unless they specify it as an optional extra.
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Manufacturers run car clinics, in which potential buyers are asked for comments about what they would and wouldn't buy, while looking at samples and examples.
And the fat tyre is often an optional extra, albeit as part of a package of extras. Just like the hairdresser.
Cut
Cut and blow dry
Cut style and blow dry
Cut style colour and blow dry.
Yes yes, I know you don't go to a hairdresser, you go to a Barber.
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>> Yes yes, I know you don't go to a hairdresser, you go to a Barber.
I go to a unisex hair salon.
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Many did want it as an optional extra so many that it became the norm.
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>> Many did want it as an optional extra .......
Let's do a survey of Car4players. Speak up now if you've ever specified wider tyres as an optional extra when buying a new car.
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Yep. Wider tyres came with Alloys and I specified Alloys. Done it three times in fact.
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Yes.
I voluntarily put aftermarket wider larger lower aspect tyres and wheels on my used MB, it cured the tendency of the car to roll on bends which quite spoiled the enjoyment of the car, although at a price of destroying the magic carpet ride.
Would i do it again, No, but i'm 10 years older and steadier now...plus the roads have deteriorated to third world standards round here..:-)
Also increased the tyre width and aspect ratio when i replaced the OE tyres on my Hilux within 1000 miles of purchase, the model i had was undertyred, indeed i simply fitted the same size tyre as was standard in the rest of the world, which happened to be the same equivalent size to lower spec genuine UK and possible other Western European models but on smaller 15" wheels...someone at Toyata made a mistake on sizing for first generation Mk6 Invicble spec vehicles, individual size to that spec only.
The oft viewed elk test rollover debacle (poor test anyway if you care to find it on Youtube but caused a minor furore) for the Hilux which led to the makers' knee jerk reaction of recall and replacement of the OE tyres and wheels (which i refused as i'd alreday cured the problem by doing what they should have done in the first place), wouldn't have happened but for that simple previous mis-specify IMO, the vehicle never did handle correctly on the OE size/type, indeed the dealer demo we enquired about buying had been spun out and written off by one of the salesmen.
Many Hilux owners did the same correct resizing and noted the same results as i did.
OE Invincible spec UK model came on 255/65 x 16, i simply replaced with the correct size of 265/70 x 16, which all high spec parallel imports came shod with from day one, vehicle handled correctly afterwards.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Mon 12 Nov 12 at 09:57
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>> The oft viewed elk test rollover debacle ... caused a minor furore for the Hilux Mk6 Invincible
>> care to find it on Youtube
Eek, I did a good 10,000 miles in one of those earlier this year before work changed it for a Mitsi Barbarian. I'm always towing though, and always in 2WD - don't know if that would make a difference. I didn't think to regard them as particularly unstable high C-o-G 4x4s like I would a Landy.
Last edited by: Dave_TDCi on Mon 12 Nov 12 at 19:04
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>> Eek, I did a good 10,000 miles in one of those earlier this year before
>> work changed it for a Mitsi Barbarian. I'm always towing though, and always in 2WD
>> - don't know if that would make a difference. I didn't think to regard them
>> as particularly unstable high C-o-G 4x4s like I would a Landy.
There is was nothing wrong with them, the one you had would have had the overall larger tyres on it, the odd size were fitted 2006 to 2008 on Invincible spec only.
Incidentally if you watch that video closely you'll see it was held at a Mitsubishi premises of some sort, the whole thing doesn't look right to me the comparison Mitsi L200 seemed to be swerved in a smoother arc, but as i said above if they had put the same tyre size on Euro models as the rest of world then it would never have been a problem anyway IMO.
How do you find the Mitsi in comparison for the job, is it still a 2.5 or have they offered a larger engine option yet?
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Yes, we specified larger wheels/tyres on a MINI in '02 (16", up from 15"), a Megane in '03 and '04 (both 17", up from 16") . I've also ordered them as options on company cars - an A4 in '03 (17", up from 16"), a 330i in '05 (18", up from 17"). If I'm honest, in most cases it was because the larger wheels were easier to clean designs :-)
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>> Yes, we specified larger wheels/tyres ............
With all due respect, the subject of this thread (and my survey question) is about wider tyres, not larger diameter wheels.
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Wouldn't the two(broadly speaking) go together ?
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>> Wouldn't the two(broadly speaking) go together ?
>>
Not with the Volvo V40 ~ the only brochure I have to hand. For example, standard wheels/tyres for the SE variant are 16" wheels with 205/55 tyres. Optional 17" wheels have 205/50 tyres ~ bigger diameter wheels but same width tyres.
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As i said I'm sure there are exceptions but still as more people order bigger wheels they are generally going to get wider although not exact bigger wheels do mean wider ones.
(genuine question) Why do you think they put wider wheels on?
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Yes in the early/mid 80s when many standard fits were still 145, 155 or 165 in 80 profiles.
I specd upgrades to from 145 to 165/70 (Fiat Uno) and from 165 to 185/70 or 195/60 (Sierra/Cavalier). By the 90's most mid range cars had moved up to the sizes/profiles I wanted as standard. They have gone a tad too far now though, particularly in the small/mid basic hatch ranges.
Did start early though with my Herald upgraded from 5.20 crossplies to 175/70 radials... that made a difference.
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That brings back memories! My first Uno, a 55S, had 165/70 tyres!
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Tyre width - andyfr
