To follow on from my test drive(s) of a Yaris Hybrid -
see www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=11996&v=f
I decided to try a Jazz. I've never driven one before so test drove a 1.4 EX manual and then CVT automatic. The EX is like a T spirit - near top of range on 16 inch wheels (same as Yaris)
The Jazz has been revised and the CVT auto has replaced the unlamented I drive. I belive the CVT comprises a torque convertor plus a 7 speed CVT..
Summary impressions:
1. Very quiet and very composed on rough surfaces - as Yaris..
2. Nice handling. Even when accelerating hard the CVT was very smooth , changes were imperceptible and the car was virtually silent at idle.. At 70mph both versions were quiet without wind noise: the CVT was quieter than the manual in my view.
FAR quieter than Yaris over 60mph - no engine going at 4,000rpm.
3. Comfortable seat: fabric plus height adjustment on driver's.
4. Nice fan and aircon controls.
5. Very easy to drive: the auto had no hesitation anywhere and started from rest well even with a hard right foot.
6. Good brakes but too fierce on the manual one.. (it was brand new while the CVT had a few miles so maybe bedding in)
7.Great boot space. Far more than Yaris and better organised.
8. No rear camera. rear parking sensors £500 (like Yaris) but half price deal just now so £250.
9. No spare wheel - gunk tube. Space saver tyre plus wheel £205. Yaris has space saver.
10.Privacy glass in EX : like T Spirit and T4 Yaris Not in cheaper ES.
11. EX had 16inch alloys with 185/55/16 tyres. (similar Yaris T Spirit.) ES has 175/65/15 - exactly same as T4 Yaris - half cost..
12 Servicing -.5 year deal £199 - first 3 years free. Yaris around £520 for first 3 years.
13. 3 Years free AA- Yaris none.
14. Electric retractable wing mirrors- not a Yaris option.
15. RFL £100, Yaris nil
16 Real life mpg c 48mpg (auto and manual), Yaris hybrid 64ish.
So in conclusion:
Jazz is quieter above 60mph. And smoother ride.
Jazz is cheaper to buy.. Base list 1.4 ES CVT £14,850.. Yaris T4 £16,095 -£1,245
Jazz internals much better laid out and boot space betetr and rear seat folds flat with boot floor - Yaris does not.
Running costs - over my c 6,000 miles pa.
Petrol: Jazz: 125gallons at £6.30 £788, Yaris 94 gallons £601
RFL: Jazz £100 Yaris nil
Total : Jazz: £888, Yaris 601 Difference. +£287
But Yaris servicing approx £80 per year more.. so nett +£200.
On top of the above, Honda are offering 0% APR finance over 3 years.. with 35% deposit so you can spread payments and gain interest on money on deposit. Totally flexible and early payment without penalty.
And a £500 customer rebate ...as a sales measure
You can see where my thinking is going.
Going back to test drive a Yaris T4 tomorrow. Which does not have folding wing mirrors..
Note:
Jazz EX has rain sensitive wipers, cruise control, dusk switching lights etc.. ES does not.
Last edited by: madf on Mon 22 Oct 12 at 18:40
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Edit to the above
Servicing costs: Comparison above is incorrect.
Average annual cost Yaris £170, Jazz: £40.. Jazz - £130.. not -£80..
So NETT running costs Jazz +£157..
(I have not done any sums on depreciation..)
Warranty period:
Yaris: 5 years (battery 8)
Jazz: 3 years.
Delivery:
Yaris 6 weeks
Jazz: 2-3 weeks.
Last edited by: madf on Mon 22 Oct 12 at 19:20
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Thanks for the report - been leaning towards a Jazz myself, but not at present, just window shopping.
What is the Yaris like for carting stuff about? The Honda 'magic seats' are supposed to be the dog's dangly bits, and I must admit that is an aspect that appeals. I always tend at some point to fill whatever I have so a bit of space is always welcome.
My edit - do the sums on depreciation Jazz is supposed to be good, is Yaris?
Last edited by: Slidingpillar on Mon 22 Oct 12 at 19:25
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The rear boot space in the Yaris is smaller than the Jazz: think about 100mm less deep (front to back). The magic seats? Well err magic.
My biggest complaint about the Yaris is as follows.
Under the older Yaris, the rear seats tipped forward to leave a relatively large FLAT loading space. With the new one, unless you buy an additional boot floor, the rear seats fold but there is a c 200mm drop to the boot floor. You need to buy an extra upper boot floor to fill the space. Which raises the height 200mm and reduces the headroom.
We got a Miele tumble drier into the rear of our Mark 1 Yaris: I doubt it would fit into a Mark 3..
I suspect the position of the hybrid battery under the rear seat forced Toyota to delete the tip and slide option ...
The Jazz is undoubtedly better for space. Do I need it all? For most years.. no. But occasionally yes.
I'll update tomorrow after my third drive in a Yaris Hybrid..
(The fact that I am taking so long to decide means to me I have grave doubts. But I may just be wrong.).
I get the impression Toyota are selling all they can make so are less worried about marginal sales.. while Honda are eager. Story bourne out by delivery lead times.
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Good report about the Jazz.We owned the 1.4 Auto C.V.T. model.Large boot and with back seats flat stacks of room.The car took us to the South of France with no problems on the French motorways.One back seat flat made space for the wife's wheelchair.
The Jazz is easy to park and to live with.I had a spacesaver tyre woudn't want to be without a spare tyre.Honda should put the spare tyre in for free.
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Good write up Madf, thanks for that, and an excellent point by point comparison with the Yaris...i especially like how you note tyre specs and available servicing packages and/or costs...so many people seem unable to ask about such things before the heady buying spree then wail from the rooftops about prohibitive cost shocks afterwards.
CVT going to require expensive regular servicing?..cambelts on either?...if so did you enquire...knowing you i expect so...sales staff must have had a bit of a shock at the interrogation, bet they've never answered so many technical queries..;)
The fuel figures don't stack up against a Yaris hybrid, obviously, but i imagine that a Yaris CVT auto would give similar economy to the Jazz, presumably too Yaris non hybrid would have better boot floor layout too?, though probably not in Jazz league.
Not keen on the high price for a space saver, i'd be investigating alternatives...i have a big problem with the industry spare wheel rip off, and would be reluctant to pay so much for a wheelbarrow wheel.
Oh and do either of these fine small cars feature an electric handbrake yet?
I know you're a Toyota fan, and rightly so for many good reasons, has the Jazz surprised you pleasantly enough to tempt you away?, it sounds like it may have.
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GB wrote >> "Good write up Madf, thanks for that, and an excellent point by point comparison with the Yaris"
+ 1
I was interested in you saying that the Jazz has a torque converter coupled to the CVT (as opposed to the "clutch + CVT" arrangement in VAG cars).
Two questions:
1) Does this mean that it is relatively easy to park? (My CVT is poor in this area)
2) You say that the CVT is 7 speed. Does that mean that it uses 7 pre-set ratios (like Nissan used to do in certain markets), rather than true Continuously Variable ratios? (I prefer the former setup, rather than the latter)
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I'll reply to both the above posts together.. (insomnia)..
GB
CVT servicing..
Needs an oil change c 40k miles.. Costs included in £199 for 5 years serving. therefater approx £22 per month.. (DD).
Chain drive to cams.
Yaris interior space identical hybrid/normal as batteries under rear seat.
Space saver wheel £159 on ebay from a Honda dealer so £50 less than local dealer!
No electric handbrakes! :-)
Yes I was pleasantly surprised with Jazz: revised suspension setting meant the ride was actually very good - as opposed to earlier which were hard I believe.
Londoner
Parking? I reversed into a parking bay: dead easy.. with manual and CVT: CVT easier! Just trickle throttle..Smooth like a baby's bottom...
7 ratios in CVT are preset I believe..I could not feel changes.. and accelerated hard onto the A500 round Stoke (dual carriageway 70 limit) from a slip road 30mph and could not tell of any gear changes. So very smooth. Change into reverse? No bangs bumps or sign.
Like a very good slush gearbox without the slurring change..
I found the cabin lighter than teh Yaris..
I actually enjoyed driving it mix of A500 and Stoke side roads /paved markets/side roads of my own choosing 20 miles. Very easy to drive.. Around town a doddle.
But the Yaris was similar altho' slightly lumpy due to battery weight.
I expect to be able to cut the price in negotiation...
The average age of a UK Jazz buyer is 62: There was a buyer of a CVT in the showroom who must have been 75...
Last edited by: madf on Tue 23 Oct 12 at 04:03
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Thanks Madf..hope you get a better sleep tonight.
''CVT servicing..
Needs an oil change c 40k miles.. Costs included in £199 for 5 years serving''
That £199 servicing package really is a bargain, including box oil change excellent.
''Space saver wheel £159 on ebay from a Honda dealer so £50 less than local dealer!''
Does that include jack and wheelbrace, and i'm presuming here that the genuine article supplied with an new car would, however something i'd be checking just in case...or does the car have those anyway even if a useless toy pump and goo.
Being a tight git, or rather someone who thinks a useable spare should be supplied as standard i'd probably be looking for a suitable wheel from a scrappy from the previous model or another smalley Honda that has the same wheel fitments, paying good money to the blighters for something that should come as standard would be 'difficult' and involve much cursing..;).
The only downside is the shorter warranty, though to be fair threads complaining about Honda's lack of customer care are about as rare as those featuring Toyota, lets be honest Toyota seem to have had a 'nudge wink' unofficial 5 year warranty long before stated, is my suspicion that Honda treat owners of their marque in a similar way correct?, especially those who get them properly serviced at the MD.
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Gordon Bennet
Space Saver wheel? Yes jack and tools there.
Agree about spare wheel s'hand.
Honda warranty and service are generally excellent. The shorter warranty is not an issue to me.
Update:
Drove a T4 Yaris Hybrid - smaller 15 inch wheels instead of 16s on the T Spirit and fewer toys..
1.Less road noise.. but not very much less.
2. Still the same engine roar above 60mph.
3. I really did not enjoy driving the prior one but could not put my finger on it. After yesterday's drive, I concluded it's the extra weight of the batteries making it feel cumbersome when you turn a corner. The steering is light and it rides speed humps OK.
3. The cabin interior feels darkish and far less airy than the Jazz. Maybe it's the lower glass levels and the rear privacy glass. And my Yaris has a sunroof which lightens the interior.
4. The car I drove was used by a salesman - c 26 years old - as his car. Drives 4 miles to work each day. He claimed to average 50-55mpg! A far cry from the average 70odd claimed.
Toyota are selling Yaris hybrids like hot cakes. Delivery on T4 6-7 weeks. On T Spirit - 8 weeks +. Confirmed three sources.
I have decided not to buy one. Just underwhelmed by the driving experience. Unlike my first Yaris which was a revelation for a small diesel supermini at the time, the Yaris hybrid has one - and only one - USP-- the drivetrain. And above 60mph it's noisy..very.
I have calculated my Yaris fuel consumption over the past 3 years of the six years of ownership. 55.9mpg. To pay £16k to get 64mpg - Which real world and Fuelly - with no other apparent improvements - apart from an auto - and less flexible interior (no tilt and slide rear seats) seems a retrograde step.
The Jazz CVT appears a much nicer car. (It's been upgraded in 2010-11 so most roadtests are out of date.. the suspension and noise have improved).
And Honda are willing to negotiate , have free finance and very cheap servicing.
Toyota see no need for incentives to sell..
Next instalment may take a while.
Note : my buying criteria include my growing elderly (OAP now) and keeping teh same car for a decade or more until I am drooling and dribbling.
Nurse! Where is my nappy?
Last edited by: madf on Wed 24 Oct 12 at 09:49
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Can't fault your reasoning, looking forward to the last chapter where our hero gets the car..;)
I've seen a goodly number of latest Yaris on the road and, like new Pug 208, as well as some other latest models in this market, they are downright ugly and i find meself increasingly annoyed at the camp LED lights, specially DRL's, silly rear light patterns and overfussy body pressings...handsome nor pretty describes most of the current batch.
Alongside these modern gargoyles Jazz looks smart and functional, unlike Civic (yuk) and Accord....not as looks are everything, but i'm damned if i'd be paying my hard earned out only to find meself shuddering every time i lay eyes on the thing..:-)
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Wed 24 Oct 12 at 19:12
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nice write up madf, i got a jazz well the mark 1, for around nearly 3 years now, its a 57 plater, so far nothing has gone wrong with it, if you are patient there news of the mk3 jazz sometimes around 2013, me personaly i go for the si version of the jazz, and i am 44 yrs of age, makes me wonder am i going too old for driving a jazz or getting sensible?
try out the verso s mad f see if that takes your fancy and there the nissan note the new one coming out soon
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I'm on my second Jazz-a 10 plate iShift P/X'd at a dealer for my 54 plate Jazz CVT.
The old CVT had a start clutch ?Mechanical/Electromagnetic which had a known issue with juddering on take off.
I got a fluid change FOC when the car was 5 yrs old, then the judder re-appeared a couple of months before the "extended" 7yr/100K warranty Honda put on the gearbox.
I got another fluid change FOC, but had to drive 200 miles and see if it still juddered-If so Honda would replace the start clutch FOC.
Mine ran perfectly, but I reasoned I would need a repair in about 1 year costing £1000-£1500-not worth it-so I exchanged it for the iShift.
I drove a new CVT and an iShift before swapping.
The latter was a lot cheaper-so that's what I went for.
The new CVT has a torque converter clutch to start off, locking up into the CVT.
This is completely seamless and will creep. on level ground, at idle, so parking can usually be done by controlling it on the foot brake.
The 7 speed manual works from paddles on the steering whel.
The ratios are artificial,and fixed to mimic a manual.
My iShift is generally fine-I have no probs with it-but have 2 other AMT vehicles-a Smart Roadster and a Ducato based Camper with Comfortmatic,so I am used to their characteristics.
It will also creep at idle.
Both CVT and iShift have hill start assist, using the foot brake, not the hand brake.
The iShift is a bit jerky changing from 2 to 1 when making sharp turns uphill at low speeds, of which there seem to be lots around us!
Otherwise it is as smooth as most people could change with a manual ( and I think a lot of people have an exaggerated perception of how smoothly they can use a manual).
I am 67-so a bit old for a typical Jazz owner.
Finally-nothing beats the Magic seats.
Most other cars eg Focus, Astra Golf, have seats which flop down ,but leave a step in the floor and are not horizontal.
I don't want bags of garden rubbish falling over and messing up the car!
And the above models do not have bigger boot space or legroom.
No contest-the Jazz wins in my book.
We love it.
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Ended up buying a Jazz ES 1.4CVT in aluminium.* Complete with Elite pack- reversing sensors, mats and door side mouldings painted to car colour.
Taxed to March 2013, Service plan free to March 2016 and balance left (2.5years) of Honda warranty and AA breakdown assistance...
One lady owner and registered in March 2012. On a private plate and 300 miles from new.
22% discount from list.
Needless to say it looks unused (except the disks were a little rusty from standing but soon cleared up..)
* a very rare colour.
Had to go to Leeds to find it -150mile round trip.
Stratstone- highly recommended.
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Congratulations, nice car, good find.
Looking forward to running reports in due course, and wondering if you can resist jacking it up and greasing the brake pipes etc before the salt goes down next month...i couldn't..;)
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I prefer Dinitrol to grease:-)
*and none of this jacking up needed. Pits are the bees kness...
Last edited by: madf on Thu 25 Oct 12 at 17:27
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nice one madf, hope you have a long and pleasurable motoring, let us know what the daily running of the car is like.
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Congratulations madf!
I hope that you have a long and happy time with the car.
I'd like to compliment you on the well-organised and thoughtful way that you've approached the whole car-buying business. I let my heart rule my head too much. I wish that I was more like you, but you know what we headstrong youngsters are like (I'm a mere 57!)
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Thanks all for the best wishes..
I'll let you know how it progresses after I collect it.. (and pay for it)..
My car buying approach is based on Scots' meanness coupled with a short spell in a Purchasing Department .. coupled with decades as an accountant!
Last edited by: madf on Fri 26 Oct 12 at 07:43
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Well, collected car this pm and drove 74 miles back from Leeds on a beautiful cold Saturday afternoon.
Trip computer says 54mpg over that mileage: mainly motorways and Cheshire fastish A roads..
RPM at 70mph in 7th gear of CVT = approx 2100rpm.
Have discovered from the ClubJazz forum that Rover 200/400 25/45 spacesaver wheel and tyre are a perfect fit..Lots available and no-one wants them....The holding bolt and bracket cost £6.5 from a Honda dealer...
£205 from a dealer or £40? Difficult decision...:-)
Brakes on mine are excellent but feel set up like a US car of the 70s and 80s - very easy to get full braking with little effort..(slightly rusty brake disks are nice and shiny now).
The manual is 400 pages long...Eek! All I want to do is use the trip facility.on the fascia display.... don't want to use the floppy paddles to change gear etc.. The writers had verbal diarrhoea....
Last edited by: madf on Sat 27 Oct 12 at 21:01
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>> RPM at 70mph in 7th gear of CVT = approx 2100rpm.
>>
That's lower RPM than my auto Merc! I can't say I've looked in our manal EX Jazz but it's got to be near 3K.
I was going to comment on this earlier re other comments about the 7 "gears" - it's a CVT, it doesn't have gears! They created 7 'steps' for the manual mode.
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The previous CVT had 7 steps for an "auto" mode, should you wish to try it. Options therefore: trad. CVT with constant(ish) revs until provoked. Fine around town. Very relaxed to drive. "Auto" simulation if you prefer to hear the engine as if in a conventional auto, and don't want the rather histrionic racket in CVT mode, For example, pressing-on uphill. Floppy paddle for manual, F1 emulation and hills as previously. Quite fun I found, but SWMBO never got beyond the CVT mode, therefore her impresssion was coloured by the drone/racket on hills. We always seem to live in hilly areas!
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>> Well, collected car this pm and drove 74 miles back from Leeds on a beautiful
>> cold Saturday afternoon.
>>
>> Trip computer says 54mpg over that mileage: mainly motorways and Cheshire fastish A roads..
>>
>> RPM at 70mph in 7th gear of CVT = approx 2100rpm.
>>
Drove one earlier this gear - on combined cycle got about 48mpg over a week, which isn't bad, considering it did get an occasional spiritted trip.
>> The manual is 400 pages long...Eek! All I want to do is use the trip
>> facility.on the fascia display.... don't want to use the floppy paddles to change gear etc..
Unless you are in a real hurry, the flappies are pretty redundant. The Jazz seemed to have enough oomph without using them.
Having said that, maybe take it out for a spin, and play with them, just so you know exactly what they can do if neccessary. Same with the braking - work out how far you can go before the ABS kicks in/when exactly it kicks in. Always good to know the car's capablilities, just in case you'll ever have to use them.
The hybrid version was superb with regards to the paddles/CVT set-up. Apart from 'trying them out' just because I could, the rest of the time I didn't use them at all. If anything, the CVT/Hybrid mating is the best i've ever experienced on a CVT box.
Nice buy - and I wish you many miles of happy motoring.
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Very hilly round here. Like turn left out of our drive, drive 1 mile and 150 metres vertically..
(Which means a Yaris hybrid would never give good mpg figures on that particular drive)
Good tho' for warming up a diesel Yaris in winter.
Grille blocking on Jazz here I come. And protecting the fuel filler pipes in the wheel arch - with flexible underseal.
Looked underneath and wheel arches are pristine: never been driven in rain it appears.
Thanks for the tips/advice .. raining today so ABS trials I think!
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Any speculation on what happened to the previous owner madf? Probably paid top dollar and never drove the car?!
Anyway, their loss, your gain! Enjoy!
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>> Any speculation on what happened to the previous owner madf? Probably paid top dollar >>and never drove the car?!
>>
My BiL bought an XJS, brand new in May 1988, drove only 428 miles in 3 months before he passed away. He had always wanted one and although his health was very poor he treated himself. A man in his 40's - Asbestos was the killer.
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>> Any speculation on what happened to the previous owner madf? Probably paid top dollar and
>> never drove the car?!
>>
>> Anyway, their loss, your gain! Enjoy!
>>
Err: she was a lady (single I suspect from the reg document ) who bought the car in March 2012 and apparently was then diagnosed with terminal cancer and given a few months to live. So she sold the car back to the dealer "to live a good life before she died"..
Or so said the salesman......
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>> Grille blocking on Jazz here I come.
Why?
And protecting the fuel filler pipes in the
>> wheel arch - with flexible underseal.
Why?
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'''And protecting the fuel filler pipes in the wheel arch - with flexible underseal.'''
Knew you wouldn't be able to resist, car never seen salt just has to be prepared for a long useful rust and seizure free life, i'd be under there with you if we lived closer...:-)
Excellent news about Rover spare wheel...thats at least a £100 in the kitty.
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>> '''And protecting the fuel filler pipes in the wheel arch - with flexible underseal.'''
>>
>> Knew you wouldn't be able to resist, car never seen salt just has to be
>> prepared for a long useful rust and seizure free life, i'd be under there with
>> you if we lived closer...:-)
But isnt the fuel filler piper made of flexible plastic?
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Most of the filler pipes I have seen were steel.
I'll test it with a hammer magnet...
Frille blocking?
Speeds up winter warmups.. did it on my Yaris.
Last edited by: madf on Sun 28 Oct 12 at 14:44
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>> Most of the filler pipes I have seen were steel.
Most of the ones I have seen have been plastic, of the steel ones i have never seen a rotten one.
You bought a car without a thermostat?
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Even cars with thermostats warm up quicker in temperatures <10C using grille blocking...
My 1946 Rover 16 had a lovely leather muff with opening panels to keep it warm in the winter..
Edit : very common on Prius in US..
Last edited by: madf on Sun 28 Oct 12 at 14:49
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>> Even cars with thermostats warm up quicker in temperatures <10C using grille blocking...
>>
>> My 1946 Rover 16 had a lovely leather muff with opening panels to keep it
>> warm in the winter..
And 1946 is where that old wives tale should stay.
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Many owners in the US put mesh in front of the AC condenser to protect it from stone damage. I didn't do that but I have put Lamin-X film on the foglights.
I'd say the car warms up fine even in very cold weather - we bought it in Sept 09 and I used it a lot in the following two very cold winters. Have run winter tyres on 15" wheels for the last 12 onths (through the 'summer', although to be fair the Dunlop SP2030's it came with from new never gave me a moments concern. I reckon they're very soft - they didn't last long.
Last edited by: Bill Payer on Sun 28 Oct 12 at 21:51
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>> >> Even cars with thermostats warm up quicker in temperatures <10C using grille blocking...
>> >>
>> >> My 1946 Rover 16 had a lovely leather muff with opening panels to keep
>> it
>> >> warm in the winter..
>>
>> And 1946 is where that old wives tale should stay.
>>
Quite right. Car gets up to temperature in 0.5 miles from cold.
UPDATE:
The petrol filler pipe to tank IS metal. Covered in rubberised underseal.
Waxoiled all nuts and track rod adjusters.
Note: unlike other cars I have looked at in the past 20 years, teh track rod end nuts and the front suspension lower ball joints have castellated nuts and wire spring split pins.. Most unusual.
Coppaslipped the alloy hub faces (once had one stick.. a real pia.. we get lots of salt/rain/mud in winter).
Car now baptised as far as mud is concerned.. trip to Leek via backroads involved stopping in several passing places so sills now covered with 5mms of mud/horse/cow excrement.
Wife thinks car very quiet and composed over bumpy roads (that is 95% of all local roads).
With lots of short runs and climbing local hills now averaging 49mpg.
Got the hang of reversing into garage without having to fold wing mirrors: creep on reverse just fast enough.
Going to fit a leather steering wheel cover (next model up EX has one).. Rim slippery for me.
Last edited by: madf on Tue 30 Oct 12 at 13:50
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>> Wife thinks car very quiet and composed over bumpy roads (that is 95% of all
>> local roads).
>>
The 15" wheels, 65 profile tyres, help a lot there. We've got winter versions in that size on our car on a set of ES wheels I bought on eBay and I left them on all through this year. The 16" 55 profile tyres on the EX are just bonkers (and expensive, as only a few people make them).
Last edited by: Bill Payer on Tue 30 Oct 12 at 14:58
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>>Coppaslipped the alloy hub faces
Heh heh.
Fortunately the shearing forces that can be created by a Jazz are probably insufficient to snap the studs.
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>> >>Coppaslipped the alloy hub faces
>>
>> Heh heh.
>>
>> Fortunately the shearing forces that can be created by a Jazz are probably insufficient to
>> snap the studs.
>>
Nor did a Rover 800,BMW 320i, Mercedes 260, XJ6 etc..
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Maybe you should email the manufacturers and tell them they're doing it wrong.
Also, I know copper is added to help dump the extra heat near brakes etc, but doesn't copper increase the rusting rate of ferrous metals.
(or does the grease prevent copper-iron contact)
Just wondering :-)
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>> Maybe you should email the manufacturers and tell them they're doing it wrong.
>>
>> Also, I know copper is added to help dump the extra heat near brakes etc,
>> but doesn't copper increase the rusting rate of ferrous metals.
>>
>> (or does the grease prevent copper-iron contact)
>>
>> Just wondering :-)
I've used copper grease on the stud threads and never noticed rusting.
Isn't madf doing it to stop the wheels sticking to the hub faces through corrosion?
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Indeed.
Part of the stability of the wheel-hub interface is created by the friction between hub and wheel mating surface that is created by tightening the wheel bolts.
Theoretically (and possibly in practice - I don't attend car crashes where wheels shear off) greasing this area means hard braking/accelerating can transmit lateral forces on the wheel studs that they're not really designed to resist.
I've never seen a manufacturer advise greasing this surface.
I have seen a service bulletin referring to torquing wheel bolts that have been oiled or greased (Mitsubishi I believe) but this requires specific torque figures compared to dry-tightening. They also specify not using molybdenum disulphide grease (as it leads to over-tightening) and also not oiling or greasing the facing surface of the wheel bolt/nut.
If there is already such a galvanic corrosion effect that causes the alloy to stick to the hub I'm not convinced greasing the surfaces is entirely smart.
Never had a wheel that couldnt be loosed by slightly slackening the nuts and driving the car a bit +/- using the brakes.
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.
>>
>> Isn't madf doing it to stop the wheels sticking to the hub faces through corrosion?
>>
>>
Yes. No grease on threads.. I am lightly covering the wheel face surfaces with copperslip... not touching the threads.. as aware of the impact of wheel nuts.. (smoothed down with a paper workshop towel so even and thin. Copperslip is antiseize and not a lubricating grease.)
I had a Rover 800 where the front wheel hit a pothole and the tyre shredded and I was stuck with only the car jack in the middle of nowhere and a wheel that was immovable and a car which was undriveable.. I was in a business suit and eventually freed it after 30 mins.. but my suit was ruined.
The corrosion on the wheel was spectacular as the lacquer on the alloy had obviously just peeled off .. and steel/aluminium corrosion had welded wheel and hub together.
Never again...(it was someone else's company car and rather neglected)
Last edited by: madf on Wed 31 Oct 12 at 06:34
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www.molyslip.co.uk/anti_sieze_compounds/ Apparently intended to prevent corrosion.
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"Fortunately the shearing forces that can be created by a Jazz are probably insufficient to snap the studs."
That puts me in mind of Sir George Shearing, a fine jazz pianist who died last year aged over 90.
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No further mention of greasing pipes.
Never had any worries about the fuel filler pipe, but I got an advisory at 6 years on my Mk1 Jazz for surface corrosion on the rear brake pipes where they are up in the recess by the suspension cross tube.
The tester said they were prone to rust there and obviously had a careful look, and showed me.
He lets me look under my cars when they are up on the ramp at the MOT, not sure if that should be allowed, but he does.
My Indie (Ian Moss- Chalford -highly recommended) rubbed them down at the next service and anointed them with something.
I trust him implicitly-if they had needed replacing he would have done it.
Have you greased yours?
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>> No further mention of greasing pipes.
>
>> I trust him implicitly-if they had needed replacing he would have done it.
>> Have you greased yours?
>>
>>
The Jazz brake pipes are plastic coated except for a small 10cm section near the disks which appears black painted. I have waxoiled them and - very gingerly - around the bleed nipples to prevent the nipples corroding into the calipers (been there, done that on a 17 year old Peugeot 106). I also waxoiled all the metal brackets holding the pipes in place and the junctions.. I have seen pipe junctions corrode so badly they can only be undone with so much force they are destroyed.
It would appear Honda are much better engineers than Toyota as they use higher quality connectors to the calipers rather than a direct screw in fitting..#
The rear handbrake fittings on the rear disks are a work of art.
Cannot see most of the car underside as there appears to be a large undertray from the engine back to the start of the rear suspension pick up points.
# no wonder the cars are expensive.. when new.
Last edited by: madf on Wed 31 Oct 12 at 11:44
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>>
>> # no wonder the cars are expensive.. when new.
>>
I reckon the first model Jazz we had was even better - felt beautifully engineered. Be interesting to see how long they stick around for.
The 2009 model feels flimsy by comparison.
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i got the mk1 jazz a 57 plate was mulling over to change to the mk2 agree with bill payer interior looks cheaper and more plasticky, mk2 more roomier, probably more economical cheaper to service, and tax, but more expensive to insure as compared to the mk1.
i keep the mk1 till it drops
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 31 Oct 12 at 18:42
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Seats are about a million times better in the mkII, and the lack in intermittant rear wiper really irritated me on the MKI, although on a streaming wet roads so much spray gets on the back window the intermittant wiper on the mkII can't keep it clear!
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SWMBO's Civic FN3 had the magic seats, I thought they were really innovative (combined with the flat floor and 90Deg opening rear doors). However I think we used the feature exactly once in 3 years. The 'demo picture' is a bike being put in the back with the magic seats folded, that's fine as long as the bike is spotlessly clean I'd contend....
I wanted to love SWMBO's Civic but it was just too flawed and unreliable, I hope (think) that the Jazz is a much better proposition?
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I have a rubber sheet for use on the Jazz floor. (Aldi c £7) . Covers about half the boot space with seats flat. Ideal for carrying dirty stuff. Baptised it (Jazz that is: sheet used in Yaris) last weekend when doing building works at our local apiary
Last edited by: madf on Thu 1 Nov 12 at 05:40
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Well had it for nearly 3 weeks so a quick update:
1. Averaging c 47mpg - mainly urbanish driving. (Expected 48 ) It has a mpg graphic display and if I take care I can see 555 on longer runs at 60mph plus.. But it's not done 1,000 mile yet and it's winter here so should improve.
2. It's remarkably quiet when idling - can't hear it outside the car. On good road surfaces very little noise - but some road surfaces invoke very bad road noise. It's on Michelin Energy tyres so can't blame them as reputed to be quiet. No soundproofing on boot/rear wheel arches/spare wheel well so that's a job . Butyl adhesive foil lined stuff purchased..to be fitted when warmer..
3. The CVT auto with toque convertor is very smooth.. And in S mode very responsive.. Makes town driving a joy. And traffic lights. And stop/start
4. Lots of space with magic seats and so easy to use.. took Christmas tree from B&Q (discounted ) easily. Much less hassle folding seats/access etc.
5. I don't like the bland silver Honda "H" badges front and rear so replaced them with red Honda R types..see
tinyurl.com/afnvq3
(not applicable guide as design at front changed)
6. Wheel centres replaced with tasteful ones in silver with red H (transfers)
7. Parking etc easy now I'm used to it and the sensors.. great for car parks. And the folding mirrors are useful in tight spaces.
8. Added leather trim to steering wheel.. for better grip. (don't like leather seats but do like leather bound wheel.
9. Added swivel seat cushion for Mrs madf whose hip restricts mobility.tinyurl.com/cz4vsq6 (recommended)
10. Extended passenger seat seat belt buckle 8cms to make it easier to access..tinyurl.com/ckr5dyf
11. Even washed it and hosed it underneath having parked in fields and covered in mud when running. Car handled mud with no problems - unlike some 4x4s..
Very pleasant so far.
Criticism:
Brakes can be very sharp as appear overservoed for US market...the driver need to wear thin soled shoes and take care!
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Thanks for update, sounds good so far.
Surprised to hear that Honda stinted on the rear wheel arch and boot area insulation, have had to insulate those areas on family Aygo and C2 as you might expect from French built smalley stuff, marked improvement in both cases.
Fuel consumption is excellent for localish and urban use, into small Diesel figures there without the ticking time bombs of modern versions.
I don't like this overservoing of brakes, C2 similarly too eager for me but SWMBO likes the effect.
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...some road surfaces invoke very bad road noise.
The similarly van-shaped Civic we considered back in 2001 had a similar problem with road noise. HJ (remember him?) once told us that the packaging of these designs creates a flat underside that allows resonances to develop between the car and the road, so they do tend to be noisier than a conventional car.
That's an awfully long list of minor tweaks for a car you've just bought. Are you planning to keep it a long time?
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>> ...some road surfaces invoke very bad road noise.
>>
>> The similarly van-shaped Civic we considered back in 2001 had a similar problem with
>> road noise. HJ (remember him?) once told us that the packaging of these designs creates
>> a flat underside that allows resonances to develop between the car and the road, so
>> they do tend to be noisier than a conventional car.
>>
>> That's an awfully long list of minor tweaks for a car you've just bought. Are
>> you planning to keep it a long time?
>>
Based on past performance I shall own it when I become senile.. (next year? :-)
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>>HJ (remember him?)
Another example of HJ straying into technical territory from which he really should steer clear.
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Indeed.
I always thought it was more to do with the double wishbone rear suspension.
The old Civic VTI was a loud companion no matter what tyres it wore.
The only time it was quiet was when travelling over brand new tarmac, where the aggregate hadnt really penetrated the macadam.
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I enjoyed both the original report and the follow-up report, madf, but I was a bit surprised to read this snippet that you wrote:
>> 3. The CVT auto with toque convertor is very smooth.. And in S mode very responsive.. Makes town driving a joy. And traffic lights.
Using the words "CVT" and makes "driving a joy" in the same sentence are a new one on me!
Admittedly I have not tried the Honda implementation of CVT, so I have to be careful what I say, but the Nissan and Audi efforts that I have tried are truly dire. No feel. No idea of speed. No feeling of acceleration/deceleration. Poor engine braking, and doesn't creep properly. Not to mention a poor reliability record.
Given the persona that comes across on this forum, madf, I reckon that you are not bluffing and that what you are effectively saying is that the Honda CVT really is a class above the others.
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Londoner
The Honda CVT is really different. 7 fixed speeds so it's effectively a conventional auto box.
None of the high speed whirring.
In D the changes are seamless and you cannot really tell what gear you are in. It kicks down well but changes up quickly for economy.
In S it keeps lower gears longer .. and 6th and 7th gear can only be engaged using the floppy paddles.
(yes it has them but I rarely use them).
S is ideal for engaging when pulling out across roads and a fast burst is essential. Change from S to D is push gearlever jobbie.
(The gear you are in when using paddles is displayed on the display in front of the driver. Not so when full auto mode).
By using a torque convertor, you get very smooth changes and the indecision of a CVT is completely removed).
Try one: great fun...
Edit I drove an A4 Multichronic and a Yaris CVT and the Honda is light years ahead.
Last edited by: madf on Mon 26 Nov 12 at 06:27
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Many thanks for the response, madf.
Much appreciated, and food for thought! :-)
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I've driven the Honda Jazz for three years Londoner and the C.V.T is spot on.Very smooth and you don't notice the gearschanges.I very rarely used the paddle shift but it's nice to have.Brother in law has the Citroen C4 Auto no comparison with the Jazz second best.
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Haven't tried a Jazz but I did drive the Citroën EGS in a C4 Picasso and I can't imagine that achieving second place even in a two-horse race. I do remember quite liking the Audi Multitronic, but I didn't have it long, and it was a long time ago.
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>> Londoner
>> The Honda CVT is really different. 7 fixed speeds so it's effectively a conventional auto
>> box.
>>
Unless they've changed how it works it only has 7 "steps" in manual mode - in auto it's continuously variable. Hence the name!
>> In D the changes are seamless and you cannot really tell what gear you are
>> in.
That's because there aren't any changes! You're not in a specific gear - it's continuously variable.
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Err I thought the computer controlling the CVT selects the gear ratios so although in theory infinitley variable in practise it is not.
I can persuade the autro to lsip into 7th gear at c 30mph when the engine is warm by removing foot gently from the throttle so it drives at c 1,000 rpm.. 2200rpm in 7th = 70mph.
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>> Err I thought the computer controlling the CVT selects the gear ratios so although in
>> theory infinitley variable in practise it is not.
>>
Well, it's not something I'd bet my life on, but if it wasn't Continuously Variable then there's a bit a trade descriptions thing going on!
Certainly it was very explicity described on the previous model as having 7 artificial steps introduced when in manual mode.
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I haven't driven the current vtec auto, but the previous one had 3 modes. Default is CVT where the revs are more or less moderate and constant. Unless flat out when it runs at high revs. There is the manual (flappy) mode and a torque-converter auto emulation. I think there was a "gear" indication on the dash in the manual and TC mode. Not sure. But something for all tastes:)
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Honda Jazz/Fit - Revised Honda Jazz Test Drive -impressions.. - madf
