Whilst chatting away about nothing in particular, as you do, Ian and I both found last weekend that we didn’t feel anything for the Mondeo!
It is by far the newest car we’ve ever owned, it does everything well, including towing the van, but it’s boring and makes us both feel old before our time.
I know the dreaded cost to change will be discussed on here but we already know it’s not a good financial decision to sell it after less than a year but we also know life is too short to look at everything from a financial point of view too.
We went to the launch of the new Bailey caravan a couple of weeks ago and fell in love with it so we need a car that will pull a bigger caravan easily.
We’ve spent the week doing sums and looking at various options and (sorry Alanovic!) but it looks like going back to a 4x4, which will also prove easier to get in and out of for me than the Mondeo.
We’ve short listed the Kia Sportage, CRV mk3 and Mitsubishi Outlander.
It won’t be a new one by any means but we hope to sell the Mondeo and add less than £1500 to what we get for it.
I think Manatee can give some info on the Outlander regarding towing?
We tow for about 1200 miles a year and do a total of 1200 per year otherwise.
Thoughts?
Pat
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For that mileage Pat do what I've just done and try and find an old (2.8) Pajero. Will pull anything, is comfy, just the right height for easy ingress/egress and is built like a tank, simple mechanics and very torquey, has an amazing turn of speed too should one desire. However don't expect more than low twenties mpg (I am guessing). Only had the thing a week and I love it.
Jimny for sale......(0:-:0)
MD
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Best towing vehicle is a Ford Transit as used by many a traveler.
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>> Crap engine.
What, all of them?
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>> Whilst chatting away about nothing in particular, as you do, Ian and I both found last weekend that we didn’t feel anything for the Mondeo!
>> It is by far the newest car we’ve ever owned, it does everything well, including towing the van, but it’s boring and makes us both feel old before our time.
Welcome to 'modern' cars..
The newer they are, the more 'white goods' they feel. (on the whole)
I have driven quite a few cars in my time, and even the best of production cars of today leave me cold.
They just get on with the job of going from A to B... even doing many of your jobs for you - lights on/off, wipers on/of.
Totally boring....
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I'm intrigued by the idea of feeling anything for a car. They either fit the needs you have or they don't. Add reliability and I'm happy. Romantic attachment to a ton of iron is not something I feel but as you say you've fallen in love withe a fibre glass box as well I guess its possible.
Good luck with the search.
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>> feeling anything for a car<<
I'm surprised to find that remark on a car forum.
Surely an owner should enjoy driving it, feel good about owning it and pleased with it overall?
Neither of us particularly enjoy driving it, it does what we expect it to do very well, but there is a certain amount of pleasure in coaxing something a bit more out of a vehicle against all the odds.
We both worked very hard to be able to afford to pay for it, but the enjoyment doesn't reflect the sacrifices.
In short it's a big black blob of ostentaiousness ( is there such a word?!) which really isn't us.
Pat
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>>>there is a certain amount of pleasure in coaxing something a bit more out of a vehicle against all the odds.
Well then you need a late 1990s Land Rover Discovery.
Seriously though both the Sportage and CRV have come onto my good deal radar for the next swap so I've been to check them out.
The Sportage seems a lot of vehicle for the money but I didn't like the ride. It seemed to have the worst traits of both floppy soft suspension and jittery hard suspension at the same time. Trim was a bit cheap feeling after a Mondeo class car too.
The CRV felt more car like with better suspension and better quality trim.
I have a farming cousin with an Outlander. Strong vehicle up to doing a job of work, firm ride but better in its way than the Sportrak.
If I had to run one of them as a car/on road tow vehicle it would be the CRV.
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"I'm surprised to find that remark on a car forum."
Why? I enjoy motoring: going from A to B in a car. My choice of car is one that's fit for its purpose. I don't have sentimental attachments to them. Allowing emotions to enter into a purchase is a recipe for disaster. That's why people end up buying houses with dry rot. Because they "fell in love with the place'.
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>>
(sorry Alanovic!) but
>> it looks like going back to a 4x4, which will also prove easier to get
>> in and out of for me than the Mondeo.
Always said the only two reasonable excuses for 4x4 buying are off-roading and towing. Caravanning also involves a bit of grass tracking I understand. So fair enough. You needn't fear a visit from the KGB, tovarishch.
:-)
If you're thinking Outlander, don't forget the Citroen C-Crosser and Peugeot 4007 also.
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Pat, Whats the weight of the new caravan?
The mondeo should pull 1500kg untill you find a suitable replacement.
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It is Bailey Unicorn 3 Valencia, MIRO 1343 and MTPLM 1497, so it's just in ok but the caravan won't be here before January and we won't be using it until spring anyway.
Alanovic, you have just given us two more options that would work well:)
Fenlander, we sort of favour the CRV but remember going to Cornwall in the old one and never getting out of 5th gear!
Pat
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Pat, I'm sure you already know this, but do be careful with the weight for your next car. I bought my Mondeo for towing a van (ironic in the context of this thread I suppose) and also looked at a lot of 4x4s to do the job.
I found that most soft-roaders (including the CRV, Outlander etc) were surprisingly light and the old 85% rule only gave me about 1300-1400 kg to play with, whereas the Mondeo estate (the 2009 one I have anyway) is a pretty heavy lump and gets very near 1500 kg to pull safely.
Also, some of the road based 4x4s don't take towing all that well. The Mitsi Outlander in Citroen and Peugeot guises with the 2.2 HDI tend to be _very_ bad, with huge DMF problems. Not sure about the Mitsi flavour if equipped with the VAG 2.0 diesel though.
"Proper" 4x4s are obviously a good route to go down, but I found that in my budget, they had *all* been used for towing big vans already, and felt very tired for it. I looked at a mint 2.5 year old Sorento with a genuine 18k miles and the clutch and flywheel were completely shot. Every single mile (pretty much) that it had done was with a heavy van on the back.
Last edited by: oilburner on Fri 5 Oct 12 at 11:37
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I'd expect that, if you bought a KIA Sorento/Hyundai Santa Fe/Citroen C-Crosser etc from the Thames Valley/West London area, it would never have been near a puddle, let alone towed anything in its life. Look out for white ones particularly. Most of them here are fashion/status statements, not utility vehicles.
Please do not interpret this as an anti-4x4 rant, I'm merely speaking from observation of my local school runners.
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You'll have flog a few clothes pegs to cover the cost.
;>)
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>> I'd expect that, if you bought a KIA Sorento/Hyundai Santa Fe/Citroen C-Crosser etc from the
>> Thames Valley/West London area, it would never have been near a puddle, let alone towed
>> anything in its life.
Perhaps. But a school run car one day can become a tow car on the school holidays. Just because you see one parked on the kerb near a school doesn't mean it never does anything else...
There's a Range Rover Sport doing the school run at my son's school. I always used to tut when seeing it do the 1.5 mile drive to school, when there's a footpath directly to the school (cross country) of no more than 1/4 of a mile. Then I discovered the owner had a disability, so didn't walk, and also recently saw the RR used as a farm vehicle, pulling trailers with huge farm type things on them. Just goes to show...
I always look for the tow bar, even must school run 4x4s seem to have one. Seems a step too far for a fashion statement! :)
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That is exactly the problem we're finding oilburner, had we have had the estate Mondeo instead of the hatchback it would have handled the bigger van far better.
The CRV worries me for that reason, as does the Volvo V70, Sorrento, Huyundi Tucson and the Santa Fe. All either too light really or have horrendous problems with fuel consumption and DMF and clutch.
Are Freelanders really that bad?:)
Pat
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Keep the Mondy for towing - known quantity and all that. Buy a very cheap MX5 and have fun.
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>> Are Freelanders really that bad?:)
>>
lol. My neighbour had an old one and that was a lot of trouble. The new one she's got is okay though. After all, it's basically a Mondeo underneath the 4x4 shell.
Another friend had an old Freelander too, and that was also a constant pain. No smoke without fire!
Last edited by: oilburner on Fri 5 Oct 12 at 12:00
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>>Are Freelanders really that bad?:)
I've always quite liked them.
Not. They're awful. (the older ones).
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 19 Oct 12 at 00:54
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>> Are Freelanders really that bad?:)
>>
>> Pat
>>
I have to leap to the defence of the Freelander as we had two of the old ones and now have one of the new ones which has just had its second service. We did have a CRV up to two years ago but it wasn't as good in the deep snow we get in the Highlands.
Last edited by: andyfr on Fri 5 Oct 12 at 14:34
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The 2007-on Outlander was VAG 2.0 tdi powered for a brief period. The previous model also used that engine I think.
Most of the 2007-2012 ones will have the PSA/Ford 2.2 HDI ~158 bhp engine (2179cc) also used in some Freelanders. Some of the Mitsubishi badged ones may have been made in Japan, but for a few years they have all been built at Mitsubishi's Nedcar plant in Holland along with the C-Crossers and 4007s which are the same car. Even the interior of my pal's C-Crosser is almost identical to my Outlander's.
From 2011 model year the manual Outlanders (not the C-Crossers and 4007s) have had the slightly larger 2268cc Mitsubishi 4N14 MIVEC engine with 174bhp. They continued to call them all 2.2 DIDs in the Outlander and even the dealer tried to tell me they are all the same engine, but they aren't!
The automatics are a twin clutch job. I decided against, for the towing, though I suppose it would be one way to avoid the clutch/DMF worry ;-)
On the clutch/DMF, HJ says "Clutch and dual mass flywheel failures common when towing because 1st and 2nd gears are not low enough to take off without some slip."
I can't say I've noticed that 1st is high - I don't set off in 2nd ;-) I don't have to slip the clutch unduly when towing, and a steep hill start feels much less punishing to the clutch than on the CRV. I avoid reversing a trailer uphill with any car if I can, to avoid clutch heating, and our wee bothy (1200Kg) has a motor mover anyway. The smell of burning clutch from all sorts of cars is a common one on caravan sites, but not from my car!
The Outlander is relatively heavy at ~1700Kg kerbweight, has a highish towing limit of 2000Kg, and a gross train weight of ~4500Kg. It's a more robust tower than my CRV2 was, with stiffer rear suspension which will be at least partly accounted for by a 200kg higher gross vehicle weight, to accommodate the higher payload of its nominally 7 seats.
You must have a detachable towball with this car. The lower tailgate will not open fully with the towball mounted. That said, the lower tailgate feature is otherwise a nice one as it's very good for sitting on to change your boots out of the rain! Maximum noseweight is at least 100Kg - might even be 120Kg, I can't remember, tell me if you want me to check.
Nothing has gone wrong with it so far (16,000 miles), save the combined sat nav/ICE falling out with the iPod - for all I know they might be friends again, but I put 32GB of music on a USB stick in the centre cubby and it uses that instead so I haven't tried the iPod since. It still displays all the titles and navigates the folders.
It has a lot of space inside for passengers, and for luggage when the rather token third row seat is folded into the boot floor.
The spare is an underslung space saver. Full diameter, but about half the width. I'd be inclined to put it on the front if I was towing when I had to change a wheel.
I've said before that I don't love it as much as I did the CRV, but it is quiet, surprisingly quick with the Mitsubishi engine at least, comfortable and spacious.
Servicing is 12,000 with the PSA engines, 9,000 with the 4N14 engine. The DPF is an Eolys job with the PSAs, and a rising-oil-level job with the 4N14, so you can't win that one. My oil level is nowhere near danger level a couple of thousand miles from its 18,000 service so thankfully no worries yet.
Picture? (warning, may contain nuts caravans)
skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=ED1CAB493E42EEAE!405
Last edited by: Manatee on Fri 5 Oct 12 at 15:13
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Thanks Manatee, why do we all have a soft spot for the CRV?
That will be very useful and Ian will be able to refer to it this evening when he gets home...I got as far as DPF oil levels and it was a bit techie for me.
Pat
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>> It is Bailey Unicorn 3 Valencia, MIRO 1343 and MTPLM 1497....
You must mean a Unicorn 2 (the one that has just come out). I towed a 1500Kg Bailey with a Mondeo Mk3 Estate, but the biggest issue I had was getting the nosewieght down to 75Kg. I know that Bailey have moved the gas bottles to the centre of the caravan in the latest Unicorn so hopefully that will be less of an issue for you.
The Mondeo hatches get through subframe bushes when towing but are otherwise pretty good.
I replaced the mondeo with a 'baby' landcruiser LC4, which has been one of the best cars I've had. No costs apart from servicing [and one set of tyres] over 5 years The only real downside has been fuel economy, but like you I don't do a huge mileage so I figure it doesn't really matter. My wife says that even if we get rid of the caravan (we do think about it from time to time), she want to keep the landcruiser.
Whatever you choose, with a 1500Kg caravan I would suggest it needs to be able to take 100Kg noseweight, so you get stable towing.
A good forum at www.caravantalk.co.uk/community/ - the Bailey section is particularly active.
Last edited by: Tigger on Fri 5 Oct 12 at 13:02
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Sorry Tigger, it is the Unicorn 2 and moving the gas bottle has lightened the noseweight to 75kg.
I forgot about that forum, I bet it's active at the moment, you either love or hate the new Bailey and there doesn't seem much in between!
Pat
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>> I forgot about that forum, I bet it's active at the moment...
That's certainly true. Plus many of the caravanners on the forum start to get grumpy in the winter season when they're in front of their keyboards instead of out in their caravans!
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SEAT Altea Freetrack4? Diesel 170PS. Must be a reasonable tower.
www.towcar.info/gebruikservaring.php?merk=Seat&serie=Altea
Petrol one even. 200PS:
tinyurl.com/9zssvh2
Bargain. (Please no sniggering at the dealer's name...)
Last edited by: Alanović on Fri 5 Oct 12 at 12:32
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Towing is as much about weight as about power. That Altea Freetrack is "only" 1.5 tonnes. You can't pull much more than a small 2 berth with that, believe it or not!
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OK. Pat doesn't say here how much her new caravan weighs, so just thinking out loud.
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Doesn't suit all, but I did a big car trailer towing car mileage with a Landrover Defender 90. The 110 which followed it was a slightly better tow vehicle but the overall length of the outfit is a consideration. Parking next to a lorry at the services was an eye opener.
Earlier Discovery mk2 was a good tow vehicle too, but build quality and reliability wasn't as good.
Quite sure Pat and hubby know this well, but a short wheelbase tow vehicle makes the outfit easier to reverse. (Not that I had problems with the 110, but I could see some might).
Weight wise, both these and the Discovery are heavy, and can tow up to 3.5 tonnes (4 tonnes with coupled brakes) - more than they weigh. I have towed a very heavy trailer with somebody else's Range Rover, and was advised when towing such, to keep the speed right down. Again, not news to Pat.
Last edited by: Slidingpillar on Fri 5 Oct 12 at 13:13
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>> Earlier Discovery mk2 was a good tow vehicle too, but build quality and reliability wasn't as good.
I had a Discovery 1 V8i and volunteered its services to collect a 5 berthcaravan for a family member. The only way I could tell it was towing something was by looking in the mirror. Huge amounts of spare torque and power on one of those and so heavy that the 'van had no effect whatsover on its motion.
The fuel consumption was god-awful anyway and hanging a caravan on the back didn't appear to make much odds.
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>> OK. Pat doesn't say here how much her new caravan weighs, so just thinking out
>> loud.
>>
Sorry for my tone, I was presuming you'd recognise this caravan jargon: MIRO 1343 and MTPLM 1497
:D
Basically, it's 1.5 tonnes when fully loaded. Guidelines are to stick within 85% of the kerb weight of the car. So to pull a lump of 1.5 tonnes you need a car that weighs in at 1.75 tonnes!
When I first looked into this caravan business I was amazed at how technical at is...It's a science to itself.
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It's amazing how much difference it makes too. When we packed up to come home this year from Cornwall we rushed to get the awning down before it rained and sort of threw everything in the van without much thought. It's 4 miles of single track from the site but as soon as we were able to get on a proper road we both knew by the feel of the ride that the weight was wrong.
Pulled into the first layby and moved a few things around and all was fine again.
Pat
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>> Sorry for my tone, I was presuming you'd recognise this caravan jargon: MIRO 1343 and
>> MTPLM 1497
No need to apologise, didn't take your tone badly at all. I know nothing of caravans and their wily ways!
:-)
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Alanovic, I have to say I'm pleasantly surprised at your contribution to this thread, thank you.
I really expected you to tell me off ;)
Pat
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I'm not the raving, swivel-eyed, Communist maniac some take me for, Pat.
:-)
Whatever you choose, I hope it serves you well and you enjoy it.
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I NEVER said you were swivel-eyed!!
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For gods sake woman, I told you to buy the bleeding Sportage or another CRV last time. Did you Listen? oh no - no chance - we got "I dont want a 4x4 - blah de blah".
Now look where we are.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 5 Oct 12 at 16:23
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As an avowed Subaru nut, Forester or Outback? Both are good tow cars, and ride high enough to be comfy getting in/out. (you sit down into the Legacy noticeably by comparison) At 28-30 mpg the older petrol ones will cost no more to run than a full size 4x4.
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>> As an avowed Subaru nut, Forester or Outback? Both are good tow cars, and ride
>> high enough to be comfy getting in/out. (you sit down into the Legacy noticeably by
>> comparison) At 28-30 mpg the older petrol ones will cost no more to run than
>> a full size 4x4.
>>
Nice cars, but not really heavy enough to tow a 1500Kg caravan. I'd have bought one if they were!
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I know, I know but when I stopped driving lorries we had the CRV and I could sit there and pretend....:(
It's hard to do that in a posh Mondeo, I feel like I have to get dressed up to drive the blooming thing.
Suzuki Grand Vitara?
Mix of bigger, reasonable fuel consumption for winter use on a 20 mile daily commute and high seating for ease of in and out. Low BHP though.
Pat
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Get a Mercedes motorhome instead all in one and a scooter on the back to nip to shops pure Luxury.
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Confucius he say ( or he would have done if he'd been into cars ) He/She who not buy ploper luddy estate car in first prace will always reglet decision...
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>> Confucius he say ( or he would have done if he'd been into cars )
>> He/She who not buy ploper luddy estate car in first prace will always reglet decision...
>>
correction:
He/She who not buy plopel luddy estate cal in filst prace will always leglet decision...
(though still not sure about "prace" ).
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Ah, but did Confucius have a calavan? If not, his advice is ledundant.
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I don't give a buggel what you think.
:-)
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X5? As owned by some yummy mummy and never abused.
A good friend of mine has an '03 3.0 diesel, 150k miles one owner from new. Never had a spot of bother with it, and thinking of changing in the near future.I am tempted to offer him £3k for it as a winter runabout.
The same colour (almost) as my old Transporter,but probably more refined.
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Ooh now then, that could be a bit of a buy. I drove an 06 X5 to Germany and back in well, 06, and it was a lovely thing. Telly in the dash and so on.
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>> Ah, glinning iriot!
>>
That reminds me of a Chinese meal I once had.
Uneatable it was, so I complained... 'this chicken is rubbery'
'Ahhh tank you velly much!!'
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Oh, by the way Tony, it's been "done" now ( sorry Pat, major drift ) yes, it does sound more "diesely". MPG pretty impressive though and performance seems a bit sharper.
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Funny that, I happened to be poodling around autotrader looking at second hand X5s, real bargains to be had there
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You're too old for an X5. Gotta be a bit ripped mate. Stick with the Jap oldswagon.
:-)
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Ah but when you get a bit older, its good to step up into a bus, like the X5. I can still stoop down into the lacer sprots wagon. Did you know it has the side skirts from the evo?
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>> Oh, by the way Tony, it's been "done" now ( sorry Pat, major drift ) yes, it does sound more "diesely". MPG pretty impressive though and performance seems a bit sharper.
See... I am right sometimes.... lol
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Bit of an update and many thanks to Oilburner who made us both talk about what we knew deep down anyway!
After a couple of weekends looking at various cars we finally discussed the facts of oilburners post and realised he was right, and had already done the research and footwork for us.
The Mondeo fits exactly what we want it to do, it may be black and boring but it's efficiently boring.
It will, we think, perform fine with the new caravan in January, with both of us being used to towing weight and it comes in at 94%, so with a bit of clever loading we should be able to improve on that one.
The plan is not completely lost though, just altered a bit!
We get the new van and try it behing the Mondeo for a weekend away at the end of March, if it performs as we expect, it has to stay.
Bertha though, the GSX1400, is up for sale and we've both decided she too, is boring and not much fun, so we'll look for something silly on two wheels which is a bit lower on the rear end so I can get my leg over again, and enjoy riding pillion once more:)
Pat
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'The Mondeo fits exactly what we want it to do, it may be black and boring but it's efficiently boring.'
Glad to see you've abandoned the emotional view in favour of the logical. As I said of cars "they either fit the needs you have or they don't." Good to see you now agree.. Emotions cost money. :-)
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Good call Pat. When I was running my own cars I admit to lusting after things I couldn't really justify or in my case anyway, afford very easily. I never though regretted having any of my Mondeos. Boring maybe, good though, certainly. Handle well, seem pretty reliable and for me at least, ergonomically brilliant.
Now, if only you'd bought an estate, you'd never need or want anything else !!
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Yes, the change of bike will cost money, I have no doubt of that!
Pat
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A friend of ours with plenty of money seems convinced that trading in her 3 year old Audi A3 for something brand new and more efficient will save money.... Hmm not sure of the logic.
Ignoring depreciation, an Audi A3 1.4T vs Audi A1 is not going to save huge amounts on fuel... she doesn't go far. Road fun licence will be less but by how much. She's only doing it if the trade in price is fairly good but the depreciation will be massive.
Ho hum... if it makes her happy. She's got plenty of money anyway but this seems a waste. The A3 she has is still looking very good.
Glad Pat saw some 'sense' and is spending money on the fun bike instead! That I can see makes sense. If the friend of ours bought say a convertible or something for fun I'd see sense in that.
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So what budget have you got for a bike then ? !
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That depends on how much Bertha sells for!
Pat
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Your getting on a bit now Pat. This is more suitable I think.
tinyurl.com/clre2gp
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You're too kind Pat! I was also re-examining my thinking and musing over whether I really should have got a 4x4 (some nice twin axle vans out there...) but I can't fault the Mondeo, so I'm still happy with my choice. For a car, the towing limit is high, the nose-weight limit is exceptional (90kg on mid 2008 cars on!!) and they're much better to drive and own than most 4x4s.
We're also thinking of going to 90-95% with our Mondy, mostly to broaden our choice of van. For me, the old 85% rule is a bit conservative, not taking into account wider tracks on modern cars, and (most importantly) electronic stability control with trailer programme. So, I reckon 94% or so will be just fine too, although I haven't actually tried it myself yet!
I'll be borrowing a friend's smaller van that comes in at a mere 67% next week, in the tradition of the best caravan cliches, I should think I'll struggle to notice it's even there... :)
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An update for Oilburner!
We collected the new van at the weekend with the Mondeo and immediately it was obvious that it handled better at 94% than with the old van behind it.
The noseweight has been reduced on the new Baileys because the gas bottles have been located in the centre over the axle and this helped but the Mondeo had no trouble with it at all.
OK, it wasn't fully loaded but we transferred everything over at the Dealers, including the Motor Mover), so it included awning and goundsheet.....and it rained all day long!
Thanks again for making us see sense:)
Pat
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Time for a change. - MD
