Ok, the drawbacks are many, and who knows if it will work, but at least in principle this is interesting.
In brief, a car manufacturer has produced an electric car that can be recharged in 30 minutes, which gives 180 miles range at 60mph (and I guess more at lower speeds), placed the recharging stations at strategic locations, made them solar powered, has announced plans for a bunch more over the next year, and said you can recharge your car entirely for free. And the solar stations put back to the grid more over the year than the charging will take, allegedly.
It's the States. It's Tesla. And so forth. But a little acorn, perhaps?
finance.yahoo.com/news/tesla-motors-launches-revolutionary-supercharger-032000226.html
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>> It's the States. It's Tesla. And so forth. But a little acorn, perhaps?
>>
>> finance.yahoo.com/news/tesla-motors-launches-revolutionary-supercharger-032000226.html
Huge drawback, what UK government is going to stand by and see the revenue from fuel duty disapear?
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I hope it leads to something. We need a change.
But Zero has a point, where will the spending be cut from given the huge reduction in revenue? They're still going to need roads and rules, electric or not.
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I'm sure any government will be imaginative enough to shift/increase the tax burden elsewhere.
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yes, the "elsewhere" sounds unattractive.
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Unless the overall burden is the same. I don't suppose my car tax being a tenner a year is actually saving me £170 over yours, or whatever the sum is. I expect it's coming out of my tax relieved allowances that are offset against the claimable deductions that can be made when you buy a Gorgon knot.
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But getting back to the point, wouldn't it be nice to see a change. I knwo people talk about inefficiency and lacking performance and that stuff, but internal combustion engines weren't all that great in the beginning, either.
I love the idea of quiet, fumeless, traffic. However..
Did you see the article on Sao Paulo and its traffic jams this morning? It really is as basd as they say. I can go from my place to Guarulhos Airport in about 25 minutes on a Sunday morning, its closer to 4 hours on a Friday afternoon.
They don't need cleaner traffic, they need less traffic.
And I fear that less "offensive" cars are like bigger roads, and just encourage more traffic in general.
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I was idly speculating this morning on my way in that with so many cars mostly empty on the commute, there ought be a way of making them change size. So you'd somehow have a single seater at home to which you could add another seat or more as required for a given journey.
Kind of Lego arrangement.
No idea how you'd do it, but at least that way commuting could be with much smaller cars, and hurrah, you could get more of them on the road..no...wait...
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>> No idea how you'd do it, but at least that way commuting could be with
>> much smaller cars, and hurrah, you could get more of them on the road..no...wait...
Yep, the eternal catch. Reduce congestion, and then everyone wants to go by car again, and voila, congestion returns.
It can never be resolved without Draconian measures such as genuinely pricing most of us off the roads or some forms of ban on car ownership/use.
None of that will ever be popular, no one would be elected/re-elected on that platform, therefore it will never happen.
Congestion simply can not be resolved under our system of government and society.
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Seeing as fuel duty is effectively a road pricing system, then replacing it with a real road pricing system should be fairly equitable. We pay duty on fuel, effectively paying a per mile charge, so some kind of equivalent charge to use the roads would surely do it.
No one would be significantly better or worse off, other than being a bit better off for getting free electricity instead of paying the real cost element of the fuel we currently consume (60p per litre currently, isn't it?). So, given that currently we pay 80p per litre in duty, extrapolate that to a price in pence per mile, job done.
Genuine question - what have I missed? Any reason why this is a bad idea?
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I don't understand the aversion to road pricing either.
However, in truth, I don't really understand the current objection to fuel taxation. The more miles you drive, or the less economical your car, the more tax you pay.
I mean, its not a terrible approach, is it?
But its not liked. So I don;t see road pricing being supported either.
I think the issue is mostly that people don't get what taxation is for.
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Toyota seem to have a different view:
mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE88N0CT20120924?irpc=932
Stopping work on all-electric, and noting plug-in sales are below expectations
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>> I don't understand the aversion to road pricing either.
>>
>> However, in truth, I don't really understand the current objection to fuel taxation. The more
>> miles you drive, or the less economical your car, the more tax you pay.
>>
The aversion to road pricing is very simple. It would require £billions spent on setting up and running a scheme, and those billions would be dead money that we would have to pay for. Secondly, how would you know if the electronic box in your car was charging you the right amount? You wouldn't. My suspicions over our electricity meter being faulty have been proved right. I wonder how many years EDF will reimburse me for?
Fuel duty may not be perfect as a road charge but it iis so cheap and simple to collect.
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>>The aversion to road pricing is very simple..............
I wasn't really talking about the difficulties in making it work, I was wondering about why people object to it.
However, since you bring it up, road usage pricing works in Chile, Argentina, Brazil, and others. I have a little box (about the size of a garage door opener) in each vehicle which beeps each time it is charged. And I probably get charged 5 - 10 times a day. It takes the amount directly from my bank account and sends me a statement every month.
Are you saying that the UK is not as advanced or as capable?
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 25 Sep 12 at 19:50
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>> Are you saying that the UK is not as advanced or as capable?
Is that full road pricing or just motorway tolls/urban zone charges.
We have both of course, as you know. Its not full road pricing.
Fuel duty is the ultimate road pricing, one that no-one can get out of no matter the journey.
Except its not of course its general taxation
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 25 Sep 12 at 19:59
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A variety of systems covering the range, I think. With the exception that as its not the only form of charging I guess you could symantically argue the point. But its an advanced usage system with a toll transmitter every few hundred yards. Automatic debiting, ticketing et al.
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I have an electronic bipper for the French autoroutes, and it works very well. But the kind of system mooted for us is one where the charge would vary depending on the time of day, distance travelled, etc. So many variables that it would be impossible to check the accuracy. And of course greater complexity makes it more expensive. No doubt the management consultants are salivating at the thought of their fees as we speak.
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>> Are you saying that the UK is not as advanced or as capable?
No but the UK is very densely populated and has tightly interlocking/overlapped road network. Any road charging would likley differentiate between local roads and trunk roads/motorways.
I can cross the M1 twice, running parallel to it for a mile or so just going to a nearby village.
If the charging system 'sees' me on the M/way how do I disprove it?
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One place I drive is not a chargeable road and it crosses under a chargeable road, runs alongside it for about 1/2 mile past at least two charging wotsits and then veers off.
So I guess it works somehow.
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Points Against
Firstly, the electricity wont be free, someone has to install, maintain and cover the standing costs of the the charging stations. Many Many of them. The sun generated electricity will cost.
Thirty minutes is a long, long, long time. Have you seen the throughput of cars in a busy filling station? the queues will be enormous.
The range of electric cars is painfully short, and the current physicis says this will be the case for a large number of years.
The rare earth material needed to produce batteries is just that - rare.
The problem is we need a new motive power. The hydrogen fuel cell is the one
You could use solar energy to generate the hydrogen, and easily convert the existing fuel logistical chain, AND maintain/control the current road pricing scheme we have (fuel duty)
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 25 Sep 12 at 16:02
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>> The problem is we need a new motive power. The hydrogen fuel cell is the
>> one
Nah. We just need to drink more whisky.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-19708915
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They elite will only go and ration water instead, looks like they have already got that covered with the Pacific Institute etc.. www.pacinst.org
Last edited by: sooty tailpipes on Tue 25 Sep 12 at 16:14
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>> They elite will only go and ration water instead, looks like they have already got that covered with the Pacific Institute etc.. www.pacinst.org
It's no joke. Responsible caring modern Australians have been self-rationing water for years, and very inconvenient it is for those raised in wetter places.
There's said to be a lot of water under the Sahara desert. But it isn't easy to get at and may be too salty for consumption. Quite a lot of the water people can get at in the desert is almost undrinkable for the salt. When someone puts Javel purifying tablets in it it becomes totally undrinkable.
There's good water too of course. Desert men put it in goatskins proofed on the inside with some sort of tar or pitch, and sling the skins over the front wing of a 4 wheel drive in the sun. The skins sweat a bit of water and if the vehicle is moving - not fast, 30 mph on a good track - it evaporates keeping the water inside the skin very pleasantly cool. The slight taste of pitch is agreeable compared to the salt/javel combination.
I believe the salt in desert water is just millennias' worth of concentrated animal urine. Much of the Sahara was grassy steppe even in Roman times.
:o /
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Tue 25 Sep 12 at 17:26
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Apparently the energy required to take a car 180 miles at 60 mph can be obtained from a solar panel in 30 minutes?
How big does the panel need to be?
How many such panels would a busy charging station need?
How big would the station roof need to be to accomodate them?
How much queuing space would be needed to accommodate all the cars waiting their turn for their 30 minute fill-up?
Why would the purchase of land and the construction of filling stations cost nothing?
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Can't answer much of that, but in this dreary little press release there is at least a picture of a Tesla charging at one. But you can't see any of the infrastructure which makes it all seem like vapourware.
Time will tell.
www.inautonews.com/tesla-unveils-its-solar-powered-charging-station#.UGHmnGt5mSM
I imagine the solar cells charge whacking great batteries, effectively, so not directly charging the cars.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Tue 25 Sep 12 at 18:16
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You can always adopt road pricing/decongestion as follows:
Odd numberplates allowed into cities one day. Even the next. (As Singapore I think .. or is it Lagos? :-)
Computer controlled and HUGE fines for disobeying..
Just think of all the economic activity false plates will bring..:-)
Solar power to recharge batteries.. With our summer it will work a treat. With our winter it will work equally well.
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Athens actually(didn't work-owners just bought a second car!).
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>You can always adopt road pricing/decongestion as follows:
Couldn't we just start a war with Iran?
Crude at $200/bbl.
Petrol at £2/litre.
Plebs priced off the road but the Treasury still gets the same income from Duty and VAT.
Climate change solved.
Politicians can blame the Iranians.
Problem fixed without all this electrickery or beeping garage door openers.
Why do we always have to complicate things?
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>>Odd numberplates allowed into cities one day.
Its a quite ridiculous approach, but quite common in various cities in South America - Sao Paulo and Santago to name but two.
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>There's said to be a lot of water under the Sahara desert. But it isn't easy to get at and
>may be too salty for consumption.
You might like this AC.
10,000 year old aquifer that is less polluted than surface water.
www.namibian.com.na/index.php?id=28&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=99242&no_cache=1
www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-18875385
Last edited by: Kevin on Tue 25 Sep 12 at 21:02
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>>We just need to drink more whisky.
You see, I don't care what the problem is, that is almost certainly the right answer.
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Free electric car travel? - Zero
