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As the title suggests, a place to discuss Formula One, and all other types of motorsport (excluding MotoGP, which has a section of its own).
PLEASE NOTE:-
To try and maintain some kind of logical order of discussion, if you start a new subject then reply to this post and remember to change the default subject header.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 8 Oct 12 at 01:17
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The Woking boys are looking good with the reds just behind.
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>> The Woking boys are looking good with the reds just behind.
>>
On the face of it, looks good for them. But it is a bit premature to judge performance. Red Bull rarely reveal their true pace during Friday practise, and the Mercs are running without full DRS in he 2nd session.
p.s. Alonso blew an engine in the morning, and has just blown a gearbox.
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>> On the face of it, looks good for them. But it is a bit premature
>> to judge performance. Red Bull rarely reveal their true pace during Friday practise,
>>
Hamilton was just 0.038 seconds faster than his fellow Briton, with Ferrari's Fernando Alonso, the championship leader, a further 0.020secs adrift.
Only 0.257secs separated the top eight, which did not include the Red Bulls of Mark Webber and Sebastian Vettel.
All brewing up nicely ?
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They are all nearly as fast as the McLarens now they have seen the telemetry printout. :-)
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>> Only 0.257secs separated the top eight, which did not include the Red Bulls of Mark
>> Webber and Sebastian Vettel.
>>
The Red Bulls were fast (possibly best of the lot) on long run trim.
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Button out of luck again but McLaren looking good glitches apart. Ferrari also looking good though. Impeccable drives by Hamilton and Alonso and a better one than usual from Massa. And an absolutely brilliant one from Perez whose car seemed to be going a lot better than Kobayashi's.
I wanted the pole sitter to win of course, but it makes for a less interesting race when he does.
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Just incase it slips under the radar Rally GB is being run 13th to 16th September. The usual last November slot in the WRC is being run in Spain.
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It was never the same when it lost
Group B rally cars
Night Stages
Killer Kielder
Grizzly Grizedale
etc
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 8 Sep 12 at 23:54
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It was never the same when it lost
Group B rally cars
Night Stages
Killer Kielder
Grizzly Grizedale
etc
Indeed.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Sun 9 Sep 12 at 21:11
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That's when I stopped actively following it. In the last Group B rally, as a spectator I did 1000 miles in 3 days, caught 3 stages per day, visited 3 countries and had about 8 hours kip in total.
With office hours rallies, you'd be hard pressed to catch two stages the same day.
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BBC says Prof Sid Watkins has died. A sad loss.
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>> BBC says Prof Sid Watkins has died. A sad loss.
>>
Details:-
www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/motorsport/19578977
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Met him once, very briefly, at the peak of his F1 career.
Charming and pleasant man.
Sad news indeed.
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www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/19635534
Pity - I thought he did quite a good job. Now, who would be the current popular choice - Clare Balding?
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I think it will be Lee McKenzie who gets it.
www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/bbc/9550394/George-Entwistle-BBC-needs-more-women-and-less-bureaucracy.html
If it goes to a man, it will be James Allen.
Oh, I forgot, the anchor has to be someone not familiar with F1.
Last edited by: John H on Tue 18 Sep 12 at 16:43
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>> If it goes to a man, it will be James Allen.
If that happens I'll be subscribing to Sky F1.
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>> >> If it goes to a man, it will be James Allen.
>>
>> If that happens I'll be subscribing to Sky F1.
>>
You can relax. On his blog, JA has now repeatedly been urged by followers/fans to apply and JA has said at least three times that he is not interested in applying for it.
Grapevine says that BT has paid a handsome price to lure James Humphrey away from a rumoured highly paid lead Sports anchor position at BBC.
This what JH said on 6 September:
twitter.com/mrjakehumphrey/status/243737016574046208
"Jake Humphrey @mrjakehumphrey
Why is twitter suddenly awash with rumours & people convinced I'm joining @SkySportsF1. Is someone spreading a scurrilous rumour??"
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>> You can relax. On his blog, JA has now repeatedly been urged by followers/fans to apply and JA has said at least three times that he is not interested in applying for it.
Of course, that could mean he is in the process of agreeing terms.....
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>> Pity - I thought he did quite a good job. Now, who would be the
>> current popular choice - Clare Balding?
>>
I hope not
"Lee McKenzie favourite to replace Jake Humphrey as BBC F1anchor - Jeremy Clarkson 100/1 outsider"
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Have the BBC got the TV rights for the next F1 season, or is that TBD?
Last edited by: Focus on Tue 18 Sep 12 at 16:46
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>> Have the BBC got the TV rights for the next F1 season, or is that
>> TBD?
>>
Current joint contract expires in 2018, unless - as before in the case of sole rights - BBC decide to chuck that in early.
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>> >> current popular choice - Clare Balding?
>> >>
>> I hope not
>>
I think Clare would be an excellent F1 anchor.
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>> I think Clare would be an excellent F1 anchor.
Although my suggestion was a bit TIC (not sure whether the above was or not) it would be an interesting choice, and I'd watch it. Of course she might not have any interest in F1 and turn it down even if offered.
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Clare Balding seems to be a jill of all trades, plus her bread and butter horseracing commentry could of done without the insult to the jockey with rotting teeth
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>> Clare Balding seems to be a jill of all trades
Tends to imply she's only average, which I don't think is the case.
>> plus her bread and butter
>> horseracing commentry could of done without the insult to the jockey with rotting teeth
That was a post-race interview for which she apologised, and took the subsequent ribbing on 'have I got news for you' in good spirit. I don't think it was a big deal.
She was a jockey so naturally horse racing is her forte.
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Someone with a proven liking for cars is essential surely.
Brian Sewell, better known as an art critic and former friend of the late Soviet spy and keeper of the Queen's pictures, Antony Blunt, would fill the bill perfectly. With the added bonus of a crash course in baroque, tortured vowels for F1 enthusiasts the world over.
Heh heh...
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Tue 18 Sep 12 at 17:12
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>> Brian Sewell, better known as an art critic and former friend of the late Soviet
>> spy and keeper of the Queen's pictures, Antony Blunt, would fill the bill perfectly.
Genius! :)
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>> >> >> current popular choice - Clare Balding?
>> >> >>
>> >> I hope not
>> >>
>>
>> I think Clare would be an excellent F1 anchor.
Yeah, throw her off the car on the end of a chain, better than carbon brakes.
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>> I think Clare would be an excellent F1 anchor.
+1.
Unlikely however.
Never been impressed with Jake, I always found myself waiting for him to shut up and give way to someone with something to say. Clare Balding is a real pro who is always well briefed and usually gets something worth hearing out of her interviewees.
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I dont rate him either, where Jake is concerned, its about jake.
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James Allen says "No":
Read and join the discussion here:
www.jamesallenonf1.com/2012/09/bbc-seeks-new-face-of-f1-as-jake-humphrey-quits-the-corporation/
" James Wilson
Date: September 18th, 2012 @ 2:16 pm
And what would you say if they offered you the position James? Yes I hope! Although I like Lee Mck also…
[Reply]
James Allen Reply:
September 18th, 2012 at 3:52 pm
Very happy where I am thanks"
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I like Jake, but why replace him? Just shake up the coverage so that there is no on screen anchor and manage with DC, Eddie et al, thereby saving at least one wage and associated travelling costs from the licence payers bill.
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>> I like Jake, but why replace him? Just shake up the coverage so that there
>> is no on screen anchor and manage with DC, Eddie et al, thereby saving at
>> least one wage and associated travelling costs from the licence payers bill.
Get rid of eddie at least, what a bell end he is.
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>> Get rid of eddie at least, what a bell end he is.
>>
+1
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I prefer the F1 coverage on the BBC. Jake has been a good anchor. I don't like the Sky coverage. So I'd prefer to watch highlights on the BBC. I have Sky Sports.
Now that Geordie named woman... get rid of her off Sky F1.
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>> I think Clare would be an excellent F1 anchor.
Read in the Metro this morning that she's already jumped the BBC ship to go and do horse racing for Channel 4..
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>>Read in the Metro this morning that she's already jumped the BBC ship to go and do horse racing for Channel 4..
>>
IIRC she is freelance.
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Ah ok - according to Wiki "In August 2012 it was reported that Balding would be presenting Channel 4's racing coverage, while still retaining an option to work for the BBC on non-racing programmes such as rugby league".
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Indeed a freelance, she hopped straight from BBC Olympic coverage into C4 Paralympic coverage.
Quite refreshing really, if you are good, why not do multiple channels at one time. At least match of the day wouldn't be stuck with Garry Slimeaker every week.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 19 Sep 12 at 09:56
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They should get George Monbiot.
He could be a sort of Devil's Advocate, standing on the grid poking Bernie Ecclestone in the chest and asking why the cars haven't got catalytic converters or engines that run on recycled rabbit droppings.
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>> They should get
Murray Walker back
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>> Murray Walker back
But Murray wasn't the anchor for the F1 programme was he. I think Clare Balding could easily do this. I'm sure they'll find someone annoying to do it.
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>> But Murray wasn't the anchor for the F1 programme was he.
True, but would be a good choice, IMHO.
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When he was a bit younger maybe. He's a bit old to be jetting all over the world.
I hope the coverage remains better than how Sky do it.
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What, no-one watch?
An incident packed procession is how I would describe it. Somehow night racing doesn't do it for me, it looks like it's taking place on a Playstation.
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Yes, I did. Tough on Lewis, decent result for Jenson. The podium interview thing is a bit cringeworthy, and it's not all Eddie's fault. The preamble's also getting that way. I'd rather have a post-amble with some insight into what just happened.
And if Jake says "And you know what..." again, I'll moan on an internet forum.
Massa provided a bit of entertainment, as did Schumacher - I can empathise with him, I usually get black flagged for that when ever I go karting!
Safety cars are OK when they are needed, but they do rather negate the efforts of people who build a lead. A track where there's at least one every race should come off the calendar.
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>> Yes, I did. Tough on Lewis, decent result for Jenson.
Lewis went out for a 2nd run in Q3 unnecessarily yesterday. He had a massive margin from the 1st run. If I was running his startegy, on a tight street circuit, I should tell him to to take that and wait out the rest of Q3. As it turned out he whacked his right rear on the wall. Whitmarsh told Sky ". As you probably know, Lewis brushed the wall [in qualifying], but I think it was very, very light. I don't think this was something that's come from that." So Whitmarsh is not certain about the cause, but Sky are putting a different stronger spin on that:
www1.skysports.com/formula-1/news/20876/8104100/McLaren-Failure-unrelated-to-Q3-incident
"Whitmarsh certain Hamilton's brush with the wall in qualifying didn't trigger race-ending gearbox failure. Martin Whitmarsh has ruled out the possibility of any link between Lewis Hamilton's brush with the wall in qualifying in Singapore and the gearbox failure that cost the McLaren driver a likely victory in Sunday's race.
>> Safety cars are OK when they are needed,
>>
The rule about allowing backmarkers to pass and for the field to bunch up is a pain. Just allow the top five drivers to clear off backmarkers by allowing these top five to overtake those backmarkers in their midst, and then bring the safety car in to get the race going again.
>>A track where there's at least one every race should come off the calendar.
>>
or modified to remove/reduce the hazard.
Last edited by: John H on Sun 23 Sep 12 at 20:50
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>>Massa provided a bit of entertainment, as did Schumacher - I can empathise with him, I usually get black flagged for that when ever I go karting!
>>
I thought Sch "Should have gone to Specsavers" but " me brakes failed" appears to be the reason
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Sch has got a 10 grid place penalty.
The Mercedes driver initially suspected it was a car failure but later admitted it was his mistake ......his error due to failure to anticipate braking performance of the car with lower tyre grip following a safety car period.
www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/19695748
Includes Jenson and Seb interiews.
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www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/19742031
Mercedes team boss Ross Brawn has said they face a "difficult decision" over the future of Michael Schumacher.
Mercedes have offered McLaren driver Lewis Hamilton a contract and some senior Mercedes figures believe Schumacher, 43, who is said to want to continue, should retire.
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>> Mercedes team boss Ross Brawn has said they face a "difficult decision" over the future
>> of Michael Schumacher.
>>
Ron Dennis talks to Schumacher
www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYI6PFNDFrg
Dennis: "come and talk privately - driving on the limit - look after yourself"
Schu: "problems coming up ?"
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>>Schumacher, 43, who is said to want to continue, should retire.
Can you imagine how difficult it would be to walk away from the involvement, the excitement, the interest?
I can well understand the dilemma.
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>> >>Schumacher, 43, who is said to want to continue, should retire.
>>
>> Can you imagine how difficult it would be to walk away from the involvement, the
>> excitement, the interest?
He's tried it once...
Last edited by: Focus on Thu 27 Sep 12 at 13:32
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which is probably why he's reluctant to do it again.
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You leave at the top, everyone is scared witless and in awe of you? and you come back second rate and everyone treats you like a mobile chicane and wants to stuff you in the beach?
Wouldnt be for me.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 27 Sep 12 at 14:27
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At top, I presume Good
Not at top, I presume bad
Not involved, I presume REALLY bad.
Its seen all the time isn't it? Singers, footballers, bands and so on.
I get it, that doesn't mean it would affect all of us the same way though.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 27 Sep 12 at 14:30
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>> come back second rate and everyone treats you like a mobile chicane and wants to stuff you in the beach?
>> Wouldnt be for me.
(Discreet smarmy snide pretentious sponging cough) If it isn't a false memory, I seem to remember you as one of the Schumacher-comeback optimists at the time.
I wasn't. Couldn't really understand why he did it.
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>> (Discreet smarmy snide pretentious sponging cough) If it isn't a false memory, I seem to
>> remember you as one of the Schumacher-comeback optimists at the time.
'6th at best' (in the championship?) is how I remember it, but haven't looked for the post - Z?
Last edited by: Focus on Thu 27 Sep 12 at 16:39
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>> reluctant to do it
plus loss of income of £15 million a year.
The deciding factor is Hamilton - until he signs or declines, Mercedes are not able to tell Schu to go or stay.
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they should be going for Perez. Tell Schuey to go.
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Hamilton to Mercedes, Schuey retires and Perez to replace Hamilton.
www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/19755236
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Might be a good move for McLaren. Perez looks pretty good.
Lewis's temperament has improved but I imagine McLaren still has to humour him and indulge his ego quite a lot - just an impression. And Lewis will get a run for his money from Rosberg, who might not hang around too long if he is forced to play second fiddle.
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It will be good for McClaren, they have a fast hotshot in Perez, and a calming influence in Button. Lewis can kiss wins goodbye, he can't handle or cope with the long patient slog to develop cars, and will go to pieces.
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And I would now ban him from the factory, just tell him to to turn up at races and hand him the car, don't want too many secrets of the McClaren 2013 car leaving with him.
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>> just tell him to to turn up at races and hand him the car
And don't let him go home in it either.
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Free sunglasses and cool cufflinks etc from McLaren. tinyurl.com/9xwvmep
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>> Free sunglasses and cool cufflinks etc from McLaren. tinyurl.com/9xwvmep
They are going to have to reprint the 2013 calendar.
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>> And Lewis will get a run for his money from Rosberg, who might not hang around too long if he is forced to play second fiddle.
I read somewhere that Lewis will be No.1 driver. I can't find the link now though.
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>> I read somewhere that Lewis will be No.1 driver. I can't find the link now
>> though.
>>
Funny how last weekend in Singapore, Whitmarsh hinted that JB had offered of his own volition to play second fiddle to Lewis for the rest of the season, although it was too little too late to keep Lewis.
"Jenson has had a conversation with me, he initiated it," Whitmarsh said. "He is an immensely competitive individual, but he's a team player.
"Things that happen in the future will come from within him. I'll never ask and I don't want to ask. If he chooses to do something in the best interests of the team, that's up to him."
Google cache has this (but no longer on the BBC link):
BBC Sport - Lewis Hamilton to leave McLaren for Mercedes
www.bbc.co.uk › BBC Home › BBC Sport › Formula 1
3 hours ago – Hamilton has been offered unequivocal number one status and will be partnered by German Nico Rosberg.
Last edited by: John H on Fri 28 Sep 12 at 11:00
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>> "Jenson has had a conversation with me, he initiated it," Whitmarsh said. "He is an
>> immensely competitive individual, but he's a team player.
>>
>> "Things that happen in the future will come from within him. I'll never ask and
>> I don't want to ask. If he chooses to do something in the best interests
>> of the team, that's up to him."
I wonder how much JB's smooth transition and the obvious respect he has garnered at Mclaren, has irritated LH? Become a prima donna?
His head isn't in the right place at the moment, his management is all wrong and he constantly surrounds himself with unsuitable people.
Shame, he's a top drawer driver....and a Brit.
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>> Become a prima donna?
I think he's probably always been one. If you look at his life so far it isn't too surprising.
But quite a lot of these chaps seem to be prima donnas in their different ways.
In the Sport Writ Large that F1 has become money, sponsorship, secondary management and 'career plans' take precedence over things like loyalty and 'passion'. Personally I am sorry that Lewis Hamilton has left McLaren. But it was likely to happen sooner or later.
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>>
His head isn't in the right place at the moment, his management is all wrong and he constantly surrounds himself with unsuitable people.
www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/19776917
"I was impressed with his approach to things, very pragmatic, no emotions whatsoever," revealed Lauda,
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>> www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/19776917
>>
>> "I was impressed with his approach to things, very pragmatic, no emotions whatsoever," revealed Lauda,
>>
Hmm. It would be a fool who ignores Lauda's thoughts, although I am wondering, slightly, whether Lauda is being loyal to his new employer and making things a bit more rosy than they are.
Maybe things will get interesting. Hope so.
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>> Hamilton to Mercedes, Schuey retires and Perez to replace Hamilton.
>>
From sources close to the very top of two teams, it is rumoured that Hamilton's thoughts of leaving McLaren crystallised last year at the Canadian Grand Prix where Button shunted Hamilton off and claimed not to have seen him in his mirrors.
Hamilton has felt that although most times McLaren had a good car, they have been lacking in feedback to the driver and the strategy department, which is where Brawn is very strong.
At the Singapore race, McLaren replaced the engineer giving feedback to Hamilton, and there was a noticeable change in the information being fed back to him, very much along the lines that Jenson gets from his engineer.
Hamilton was also getting on very well with Sam Michael, but all this came too late.
The very close love-in between Button and Whitmarsh had compounded the problems.
Hamilton gets on very well with Brawn and Norberg Haug, just as he used to with Ron Dennis.
Last edited by: John H on Fri 28 Sep 12 at 09:32
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>>>Hamilton gets on very well with Brawn and Norberg Haug, just as he used to with Ron Dennis.
That and some extra tax free cash may have swung it.
I think he'll do pretty well with Mercedes and IMO he's quite good at getting more out of a car than other drivers except perhaps MSC. Button is of course a much smoother and sometimes faster driver but not as good if the car isn't perfect.
Next season will have to be a development season for him at Mercedes with hopes of a stronger second half and some podiums. I shall watch with interest unless of course Womens T20 cricket is on!
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>> I think he'll do pretty well with Mercedes and IMO he's quite good at getting
>> more out of a car than other drivers
>>
With the rule changes implemented this year, both aero-technical, tyres, and regarding drivers defending overtaking, it has become less about racing and more about strategy.
The raw racing skills of the likes of Schumi, Hamilton and Alonso have now been tamed too much.
>> I shall watch with interest unless of course Womens T20 cricket is on!
>>
I shall not watch next year as much as I do now, and have already decided not to renew my Sky F1 sub.
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>>I shall not watch next year as much as I do now, and have already decided not to renew my Sky F1 sub.
>>
Why not watch it on the web?
The normal BBC coverage is there, not the chopped version shown later on the day in th UK.
"Perez is a product of Ferrari's driver academy and had been linked with a move to the Italian team as replacement for Felipe Massa.
However, Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo claimed Perez lacked the necessary experience. "
Sour grapes?
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>> Why not watch it on the web?
Not as much fun as on an HD large TV, with all the extra feeds on their race centre.
>> The normal BBC coverage is there, not the chopped version shown later on the day
>> in th UK.
>>
I thought BBC was not allowed to stream live coverage unless they were braodcasting the race live.
>> "Perez is a product of Ferrari's driver academy and had been linked with a move
>> to the Italian team as replacement for Felipe Massa.
>> However, Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo claimed Perez lacked the necessary experience. "
>>
>> Sour grapes?
>>
That is an old Monty quote - Monty has been saying that for a long time, long before any interest was shown by McLaren.
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>>I thought BBC was not allowed to stream live coverage unless they were braodcasting the race live.
>>
I think that applies to in the UK and on their web site.
I was surprised to find the BBC transmission, live in english, for one of the races earlier in the season.
I guess they have a contract to supply to other countries.
I would sooner watch live rather than avoid the news until I watch a highly edited version later in the day.
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Im rather glad that my prediction when the rumour started was correct. I had a feeling from his body language that he was on his way out.
Im optimistic for his chances. Mercedes have the resources and the right people and come 2014 its a clean slate so its anyones game. I predict Hamilton will use 2013 to settle in and then look to 2014 for a championship chance.
I can also understand why despite the potential of McLaren, it never seems to be fully realised for one reason or another and in Hamiltons mind, it may be he has just lost hope of things aligning and figured that a fresh challenge was as a good a bet as staying put.
Im also very happy indeed about the unintended consequences - Perez getting a top team seat which is superb news and will make next year facinating.
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I wonder how Mercedes will get on, I've read that they are disappointed by their performance. They will increase funds and really get serious but's difficult to buy in success, when I think of car manufacturers spending big for little in return I always think of Honda and I think Toyota spent big as well.
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True but the technical team at Merc has been developing steadily and as ever it will take time for the collective skills to combine into a championship car. Brawn has some excellent talents now behind the scene and Im sure it is that which gives Lewis hope for future results.
You need both money and design to make a quick car. I think Merc now have that. They got it wrong this year for sure, but I dont think they will do that every year.
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I hope so it would nice to see new (or along time out in Mercedes' case) teams do well.
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>> You need both money and design to make a quick car. I think Merc now
>> have that. They got it wrong this year for sure, but I dont think they
>> will do that every year.
They have had ore money than ever before, even before Honda. They have been one of the top three funded teams and have achieved..... Zip.
Hamilton has signed for three years, I admire his talents, but he has signed for three years of zip. I hope my prediction is wrong. I might be, because Mercedes might get more technical gen about the new engines than customers (McClaren) but I suspect they don't have the rest of whats required.
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Alot of the articles about Mercs chances do suggest the technical team that Brawn has got together, Bob Bell, Aldo Costa and Geoff Willis, may be key to Hamiltons decision. Its quite the team and id expect results from such a line up.
Lewis may be wrong, but I dont think the odds are as low as you suggest Zero. I think come 2014, Mercedes have as much chance as any of the top teams.
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>> when I think of car manufacturers spending big for little in return I always think
>> of Honda
That came good eventually, but they pulled the plug too soon.
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>> >> when I think of car manufacturers spending big for little in return I always
>> think
>> >> of Honda
>>
>>
>> That came good eventually,
And then disappeared back down again. The year of BAR supremacy was a bit of a fluke and circumstances really, along with one technical innovation. It wasn't the product of continual technical excellence, improvement, tactics and management.
I think Lewis's 3 year contract is too short for him to achieve what he wants. Its good he left tho, both he and McClaren needed the break.
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Come on Z. For someone who lives near the factory, I'd have thought you'd have got their name right ;)
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They used to be called BAR, and I don't live anywhere near Brackley.
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Nah he means the kids' buggy maker.
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Thats in Northants as well, miles from where I live.
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Oh that's right, I forgot you're from Corby.
Tee hee hee.
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>> Hamilton to Mercedes, Schuey retires and Perez to replace Hamilton.
>>
>> www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/19755236
>>
Michael Schumacher announces retirement from Formula 1
www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/19826983
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>> Michael Schumacher announces retirement from Formula 1
>>
Some funny pics here:
Norberg Haug and Ross Brawn prove they will stay focussed, won't be distracted
twitter.yfrog.com/z/ob356tmj
Also, McLaren reduce telemetry data given to Hamilton
twitter.com/willbuxton/status/254112697271066625/photo/1
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Ulster GP highlights on ITV4 now (until 8pm). Much more interesting than circuit racing IMO.
Last edited by: Focus on Wed 3 Oct 12 at 19:19
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Michael Dunlop and Guy Martin having a right old ding-dong. Lots of scary on-board shots of the hedgerows flashing by at great rates of knots.
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Monza. - henry k
