We've got two diesel cars with manual gearboxes. The first is a Freelander 2, which is old enough to avoid having the dreaded DPF and doesn't have stop / start either. The other car is Golf 2.0 TDi, with the Bluemotion Technology stop / start system and a DPF.
In the Land Rover, you can't start the engine unless the clutch is fully depressed and I always depress it before switching off too. Not sure if does help to prolong DMF life, but one or two on here have suggested it does and I'm hoping that my smooth driving stlye will also help its longeveity a little!!
On the Golf, again the engine can't be started without the clutch being depressed and when I get to the end of a journey habit dictates that I depress the clutch prior to turning the engine off. However, the stop / start system cuts the engine at traffic lights if the clutch pedal is not depressed and the car is in neutral and restarts as soon as you start to depress the clutch, so these 'stops and starts' are happening when the clutch isn't depressed. Any thoughts on whether this is likely to impact of DMF life in the long run?
The stop /start system on the Golf is quite keen to shut the engine off at traffic lights, even if the engine is nowhere near normal operaring temperature. There is a set of lights around 1/2 mile from home and even in the depths of winter after a cold start, it will still switch off at the lights, after a journey of about 2 minutes. On really cold mornings, I tend to deactivate stop /start for the first couple of miles, as I can't help but feel that it's beneficial for the engine to get to normal temperature as quickly as possible and repeated cold starts can't do the DPF any good, as emissions of particulates are at pretty high levels after cold starts. To be fair, there have been no problems with the car (DPF or otherwise) in 10 months and almost 19,000 miles, but that could be because it gets a decent run each day. Are others likely to be contributing to the demise of their DPF if they allow the system to keep shutting off the engine when it's still cold?
Although there wan't room in the subject header, the other part of the car that could suffer with stop / start systems is the turbo. Where I leave the motorway on the way home, there's a short slip road with traffic lights at the top (always on red!) and I don't let the car stop itself, as I'm not convinced that the turbo will have spooled down before its oil supply is cut off. I guess another scenario that could damage turbos would be somebody participating in the traffic light grand prix and thrashing from one set of lights to the next, pulling up, engine shuts down and the turbo is still flying round at 10,000 rpm...
So, whilst stop / start technology may lead to better MPG (not entirely convinced) and does help to reduce BIK figures and thereby tax for company car users, is the reality that it's (potentially) bad news for DMFs, DPFs and turbos if the driver has little or no mechanical sympathy?
|
he reality that it's (potentially) GOOD news for SUPPLIERS OF DMFs, DPFs and turbos if the driver has little or no mechanical sympathy?
Corrected it for you...
|
|
The stop/start on the 320d makes me cringe when it kills the engine sometimes. An hour on the motorway, up a slip road to a set of lights and it's cut by the time the car stops. I would never do this to a turbo engine myself.
|
>> I would never do this to a turbo engine myself.
But when you stopped in a turbo car before the 320d did you let the engine run? I have had turbo cars (petrol and diesel) when there have been no instructions on running a car engine before switching it off. Includes some VAG mind (some 1.8T petrols and current CR diesel), a Ford TDCi and a Mazda diesel.
On a few occasions the current VW has run the fan when I've stopped. DPF probably underway but during the week I do some short journeys. Then again I've not quite made 10k miles and I've had the car 11 months.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Wed 5 Sep 12 at 23:51
|
Unless you've been bombing down the motorway at 100+ I shouldn't think there's any need to let the turbo cool in your 320d. The engine's barely ticking over at 80mph and is under minimal load, and the turbo will have been spooling down from the moment you lifted off for the slip road.
Probably a valid point in a petrol car, but the EGT is just not high enough at motorway speeds in a diesel to be bothered. Exceptions, obviously, if you've just towed a caravan up a one in three or something.
This whole DMF / DPF thing was started years ago by Honest John as part of his personal loathing of diesel engines and appears to be based from the odd letter he received from readers. Like many of the best at spouting bullcrap, as long as it's done with authority people who know no better will believe it.
|
|
If and when I get a Volvo V40, I'll disable the start/stop function at the start of every journey ~ unless I forget. Start/stop has got to have a deleterious impact on the life of things like the starter motor, flywheel gear ring etc.
Last edited by: L'escargot on Thu 6 Sep 12 at 06:53
|
>> If and when I get a Volvo V40, I'll disable the start/stop function at the
>> start of every journey ~ unless I forget. Start/stop has got to have a deleterious
>> impact on the life of things like the starter motor, flywheel gear ring etc.
>>
I'm with you on this. Before getting my current car they didn't have an auto for me to test drive so they gave me a manual with stop/start, as soon as I found the switch I turned it off.
I also don't like the automatic lights and wipers so I turn the lights on manually. I disabled the auto wipers so that they work as normal with an intermittent setting, much better.
|
>> I also don't like the automatic lights and wipers so I turn the lights on
>> manually. I disabled the auto wipers so that they work as normal ..........
That's what I plan to do.
|
>> >> I also don't like the automatic lights and wipers so I turn the lights
>> on
>> >> manually. I disabled the auto wipers so that they work as normal ..........
>>
>> That's what I plan to do.
>>
Surely there's a basic version without such fripperies if they bother you so?
|
>> Surely there's a basic version without such fripperies if they bother you so?
>>
Not on mine there isn't.
|
>> >> Surely there's a basic version without such fripperies if they bother you so?
>> >>
>>
>> Not on mine there isn't.
>>
Nor on the car I hope to buy next.
|
>> Start/stop has got to have a deleterious impact on the life of things like the starter motor, flywheel gear ring etc.
Not sure how other systems work, but on a Citroen I was once loaned, the start/stop system when restarting the engine sounded completely different to when it was started with the key. There was no starter motor wrrr wrrr noise, and the engine fired up immediately.
|
Stop/start technology has been in use in Japan since the late 1990s The design of starters is very different.
See: tinyurl.com/c7ls2ns
(Opens as PDF file)
I think you are a bunch of old women worrying about something which will not happen.
HJ has lots of reports of failed DMFs as many Telegraph readers cannot drive to save themselves, being elderly and incapable of changing gear and letting out a clutch smoothly. And it's mainly Telegraph readers who will write to him.
Last edited by: madf on Thu 6 Sep 12 at 10:29
|
It was in use in Italy in 1983, as I have pointed out before, in the wonderful FIAT Regata:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Regata
Still one of the best cars I've ever owned (out of the 30 so far).
|
|
The days of starter motors only lasting 30,000 miles are long gone. Who last had a starter motor replaced?
|
|
A friend of mine, last year! - ran out of petrol quite some distance from the petrol station, so took out the plugs, and attempted to drive the car there on the Starter. Flattened the battery and burnt out his starter, if I remember correctly. Ended up in the same petrol station, but not just for petrol!
|
>>The days of starter motors only lasting 30,000 miles are long gone. Who last had a starter motor replaced?<<
I did on the Prelude last year after nearly 14 years and 115k hard, often stop/start miles.
|
>> It was in use in Italy in 1983, as I have pointed out before, in
>> the wonderful FIAT Regata:
>>
I prefer the purity of line of the early Ritmo/Stradas. The nose on the Regata looks awful!
Years ago a friend in Brussels had a Ritmo 105TC which went very well on account of its light-weight and good suspension/handling set-up.
|
|
If you don't like stop-start why not just turn it off? I think all cars offers such option.
|
My VW lets you turn it off.... but you need to do it every time you start the car. I am sure there's a VAG.COM type fix for that to be permanent.
I must admit it doesn't bother me... but it's not my car. On the other hand it's rarely in use - the car needs to warm up first. For short runs it won't be in use. For longer runs then it won't happen that often. I suppose if you had a long drive and then some city traffic it would go on and off a lot.
|
am i the only person who doesn't spend my evenings worrying if the dpf fails or stop/start might shorten the life of the starter motor?
i like all the modern technology so all i have to do is steer the car and enjoy the drive. all my latest cars have had dpf/dmf/ stop start etc and nothing ever goes wrong on any cars i bought in the last 15-20yrs.
|
I've had DPF on two cars (so covers 5 years of driving)... no problems. One was the Mazda6. Never had a problem with DMF. And stop-start doesn't bother me.
I don't worry about the car and like the toys.
|
I wonder if this is an age related thing? I'm not sure of the age of many of the posters on this site, but I can guess at a few....
As someone in my mid thirties I love the technology in modern cars, and none of it has ever given me any grief - I find the notion of buying a car with start stop and wanting to disable it odd
|
|
I think that some of the older folk here (like me) were brought up on cars we could fix with a screwdriver, hammer, and spanner. Maybe we are a bit suspicious of gadgets which the car will not run without and we can't fix. Having said that I have not had a breakdown in over 30 years punctures excepted, can of tyre gunge anyone?
|
>> I find the notion of buying
>> a car with start stop and wanting to disable it odd
>>
The car I'm hoping to buy has start/stop as standard. Start/stop is for tree huggers and I'm not a tree hugger so I will disable it at every opportunity.
|
>> The car I'm hoping to buy has start/stop as standard. Start/stop is for tree huggers
>> and I'm not a tree hugger so I will disable it at every opportunity.
>>
I'm not a tree hugger by any stretch of the imagination, but my car came with stop/start as standard. Im also naturally lazy :-) So, its never turn it off as it makes absolutely no difference to me, bar the noise of it restarting (a 4 cylinder diesel...)
Having said that it was effectively a cost option on the Up!, which has a distinct Eco model, and I wasn't going to pay three hundred odd quid for it :-). A real tree hugger would I'm sure ;-)
Last edited by: PeterS on Fri 7 Sep 12 at 07:11
|
Can you at least consider it instead of blindly hating it because it's new. Most stop/start is non-intrusive and "just works". Turn it off if it impacts on safety, but give it a try.
I've got to ask - why even buy a new car if you're going to turn off all the stuff that makes it new? May as well buy a 3 year old "luxury" car for a third the price of your V40 and a decent aftermarket warranty to go with it.
And consider the environmental cost of buying new when you don't need to.
|
>> May as well buy a 3 year old "luxury" car ............
One of my requirements for a car is that it will fit comfortably in my garage ~ most "luxury" cars won't.
|
>> The car I'm hoping to buy has start/stop as standard. Start/stop is for tree huggers
>> and I'm not a tree hugger so I will disable it at every opportunity.
Why be an anti tree-hugger? I can understand people who can't be bothered to consider the environment but going out of your way to beggar it up is perverse. But I suppose it's required to maintain your reputation as the forum curmudgeon;-)
If you use things, they wear out. Eventually. But using is what they are for. The stop start will save you money, and you might find the auto wipers and lights work rather well.
I was offered a car a while back that had belonged to a friend's late father.
It was a 3,500 mile Mercedes E240 auto, 4 years old and still with plastic on the seats. Whenever it was left in the dehumidified garage, which was most of the time, the doors and boot lid were left ajar to prevent the seals being compressed. He had made a big spanner so he could turn the engine over now and again without starting it. It never went out in the wet or when there was any perceived likelihood of rain. He would cancel and rebook the annual service if he thought it might be driven in the wet. Rather than cancel hospital appointments etc he and his wife would use the bus or a taxi.
He died aged 85 having owned a lovely car that he had barely used at all. He must have been planning to live to 120.
|
>> Why be an anti tree-hugger?
I'm not anti tree-hugger. Tree huggers can hug trees to their heart's content for all I care.
|
>> >> Why be an anti tree-hugger?
>>
>> I'm not anti tree-hugger. Tree huggers can hug trees to their heart's content for all
>> I care.
Well, environmentally irresponsible then, which is what taking extra trouble to create more pollution is. And clearly you are anti tree-hugger or you wouldn't use a term of ridicule for people with some sense of responsibility.
There is a distinct danger that you will turn into the grumpy old mollusc that you pretend (I hope, or you must be permanently downcast) to be.
Try pretending to be carefree for a while. You might like it;-)
Last edited by: Manatee on Fri 7 Sep 12 at 08:52
|
>> There is a distinct danger that you will turn into the grumpy old mollusc that
>> you pretend (I hope, or you must be permanently downcast) to be.
Keep them coming. It's like water off a snail's shell!
:-D
Last edited by: L'escargot on Fri 7 Sep 12 at 09:45
|
>> But I suppose it's required to maintain your reputation as the forum curmudgeon ........
:-D
|
>> >> I find the notion of buying
>> >> a car with start stop and wanting to disable it odd
>> >>
>>
>> The car I'm hoping to buy has start/stop as standard. Start/stop is for tree huggers
>> and I'm not a tree hugger so I will disable it at every opportunity.
>>
I really don't understand why anyone would go out of their way to override a piece of technology with the result of increased emissions, and increased fuel cost
|
|
I don't think you should be able to disable stop/start, tbh. After all, you are taking advantage of the reduced rate of VED that has been at least partly created by the stop/start system, so if you want to continue paying at a reduced rate the system should stay on, IMO
|
>> I don't think you should be able to disable stop/start, tbh. After all, you are
>> taking advantage of the reduced rate of VED that has been at least partly created
>> by the stop/start system, so if you want to continue paying at a reduced rate
>> the system should stay on, IMO
>>
I would happily pay a higher VED not to have a DPF.
|
Freelander 2, which is old enough to avoid having the dreaded DPF and doesn't have stop / start either.
Just stop, then?
|
|
To be fair, the Freelander has been no trouble at all. Bought at 2 years old and 11,000 miles and now approaching 48,000 miles and 5 years. Did a fair few miles with it in the first couple of years, but the fact that the Golf does almost 60 mpg means that the VW tends to be the default choice for longer journeys. Apart from a new set of boots at around 35,000 miles, I haven't spent anything on the Freelander apart from the (quite expensive!) annual services. Think it's supposed to be one of Land Rover's more reliable offerings...
|
...one of Land Rover's more reliable offerings.
A distinction to set beside the Netherlands' finest cook, Italy's greatest warrior and England's most accomplished passer of a football.
};---)
|
|
If NFM2R could send you a text I feel there would be one on the way now. He was a big fan of the Freelander ! :-)
|
I have no idea what the later Freelanders are like, even the Freelander that they call a Range Rover Evoque.
But I did have feelings about the earlier ones - what a miserable pile of underachieving, badly put together and ridiculously designed piece of crap that was.
I've broken them, go them stuck, and generally failed to have any fun in them at all.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 6 Sep 12 at 22:57
|
Foresters felt like the were crafted from granite compared to Freelander 1.
In fact Simcas were probably better built.
|
what a miserable pile of underachieving, badly put together and ridiculously designed piece of crap that was.
Thought my memory was good !
|
>> I have no idea what the later Freelanders are like, even the Freelander that they
>> call a Range Rover Evoque.
>>
>> But I did have feelings about the earlier ones - what a miserable pile of
>> underachieving, badly put together and ridiculously designed piece of crap that was.
>>
>> I've broken them, go them stuck, and generally failed to have any fun in them
>> at all.
>>
You have obviously had bad experiences, mine have been quite different.
Bought first Freelander at a few months old in 1998, part exchanged it for a new one in 2002, then in 2007 bought a new CRV but only kept that 3 years and part exchanged it for a new Freelander automatic two years ago.
|
|
Reminds me of how people worried about Electronic Fuel Injection in 1980.
|
|
And catalytic converters in 1990. And just about anything else related to progress.
|
|
Remember how you needed a red flag in front of a motorcar...
|
>> Reminds me of how people worried about Electronic Fuel Injection in 1980.
>>
And now even diesels have it. :-)
|
>> Reminds me of how people worried about Electronic Fuel Injection in 1980.
>>
Too true. I recall Car Mechanics magazine in the early 1980s saying a EFI Montego was likely to be a terrible buy in later life as the electronic fuel injection would give problems.
In reality, it was the most reliable piece of the car.
(Of course, if the car is French, anything electronic is likely to fail dismally based on owners' posts).
I suspect most people who have problems with new technology are those who should be employed as testers as they can usually break anything :-)
|
There's a clip from an old (original) Top Gear episode kicking around on YouTube from around 1990 which talks about diesel engines as being simpler and more reliable because they don't have the complex electrical systems of a petrol engine.
Oh, how times change! :-)
It is true that the doomsayers reckon every new piece of technology will cripple owners with ridiculous bills as the car ages. I remember people saying it about catalytic converters, efi, turbos, even electric windows.
My dad flogged his 94 2.0 Mondeo a few years ago with nigh on 200k on it. The fuel injection / management / catalytic converter had never been touched, and it still ran perfectly and well within MOT emission limits. Trying doing the same mileage in a carb fed car without adjusting or changing anything.
Last edited by: DP on Fri 7 Sep 12 at 12:35
|
>> I suspect most people who have problems with new technology are those who should be
>> employed as testers as they can usually break anything :-)
>>
All my working life I was an automotive products tester. Give me enough time and I can break anything!
Last edited by: L'escargot on Sat 8 Sep 12 at 09:16
|
>> I have no idea what the later Freelanders are like, even the Freelander that they
>> call a Range Rover Evoque
I drove an Evoque from Gaydon to central London a few months ago, the 2.0 petrol with the Mondeo EcoBoost engine. What a machine - it felt "right" to drive immediately, I didn't need any time to acclimatise to any quirks. Build quality was as good as any modern Jaguar, as nxy2k will tell you these days they're as good as any BMW or Audi. A real step forward from the old Freelanders, I'm not at all surprised they have a 12-month waiting list.
Last edited by: Dave_TDCi on Sat 8 Sep 12 at 01:22
|
4x4 s are for ignorant city dwellers who like to think they are green when in reality they are the spawn of the devil and use up more than their share of the world's resources..
How many city dwellers would live more than 2 weeks if the countryside stopped feeding them?
Car owners in cities should be taxed on the basis that their cars are perpetually stuck in traffic doing 20 mpg - if lucky.
|
>>How many city dwellers would live more than 2 weeks if the countryside stopped feeding them?
Oh? I thought we'd starve if the lorry drivers stopped delivering it to us.
Ho hum, confused again. Its dead difficult to work out who it is I need to thank for my survival.
|
>> Ho hum, confused again. Its dead difficult to work out who it is I need
>> to thank for my survival.
Dont do gratitude well, do we.
|
And I'm not even sure which bracket I fall in.
I mean, I usually live in the country, but I virtually always work in the city. I own a farm, but I also own 2 SUVs which I drive in the City.
Should I appreciate myself? Or hunt myself down like a dog?
Its all very bewildering.
|
"How many city dwellers would live more than 2 weeks if the countryside stopped feeding them?"
If I had to live on what the local countryside provided I would be mostly limited to sugar beet and barley with a bit of oilseed rape. Don't think I could live on that. I'll stick with Waitrose. ;-)
|
We'd have milk, a bit of beef, rapeseed oil (one local farmer bottles his own)
chilterncoldpressedrapeseedoil.co.uk/
some wheat and a bit of barley. And hay. There are still orchards, fruit was a major occupation round here at one time, but they are neglected now.
|
|
As I live on the edge of the M25, we could just turn to piracy here.
|
>> 4x4 s are for ignorant city dwellers '
Well, thanks for that MADEffer.....You don't convince me none so I'll keep on batting around our great city in my non-green 4X4.
I can get around a lot quicker 'cos I can bully and intimidate lesser mortals in ' ordinary ' cars. I've not been stuck in a 20 mph or less jam for years.
Ted
|
Stop / Start technology and impact on DPF and DMF - Mapmaker
