I'm now driving a manual truck again thank goodness after about 6 years with automated manuals (tat).
Having been passenger with some other drivers i'm quite appalled at the inability of some to balance gear, road and engine speed.
Made me think a bit, does anyone take a pride in a smooth sympathetic method of gearchanging and indeed driving anymore, i'd like the younger drivers view too.
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I do, I like to change gear without using the clutch, a deeply satisfying exercise specially when your passenger does not notice.
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"I do, I like to change gear without using the clutch"
Nice party trick but essentially pointless if you have a working clutch and if done badly can cause damage. Not recommended.
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Totally with you.
Surprising how many people think a gear lever is some sort of switch. Usually the same sort who do threepenny bit cornering, and are incapable of maintaining steady speed or separation, always on and off the accelerator.
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I agree. I drove as a passenger once with a visiting American in a hired car. He obviously hadn't a clue what the gears were for, and would arbitrarily change up or down until he found one that enabled him to make some sort of progress. Combined with his total faith in the ability of the brakes to stop in time as we hurtled down a steep winding hill, it was the most terrifying ride I have ever experienced.
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Smooth use of all the controls and using a vehicles full capabilities with mechanical sympathy is how it should be done in my opinion. Many people don't know how cars work so abuse the machinery without realising. As demonstrated by the numerous forums with "my car is making a funny noise / is shaking itself apart / wont start" posts. Still someone has to keep the motor repair trade in work.
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A few weeks ago I delivered a BMW M series Z3 for my friend. It has a rather loud after-market exhaust and I had a bit of fun as I approached where I knew he would be waiting, going up and double-declutching down the box so he could hear me blip the throttle between gears as I approached.
The other reason I did it was to prove I could still drive properly with a pudding-stirrer and a clutch pedal. Years ago I had Hillman Imps that you could drive using the clutch pedal only to start and stop - the gearchange really was like a smooth electric switch.
Having said all that, both my cars have auto boxes that are imperceptible in operation and with lock-up top gear overdrives so there's no 'slush'. Why go to all that effort to do it yourself?
Exits rapidly, stage left...
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The Ford boxes in Cortinas and rwd Escorts were as easy to change up without the clutch as they were using it.
Why lift your left leg if you don't have to?
Changing down wasn't a lot harder.
My last Focus and the CC3 do not respond well to clutchless changes.
The lever doesn't want to come out of gear, even on the over-run, let alone go back in.
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>> The Ford boxes in Cortinas and rwd Escorts were as easy to change up without
>> the clutch as they were using it.
>>
>> Why lift your left leg if you don't have to?
>>
>> Changing down wasn't a lot harder.
>>
>> My last Focus and the CC3 do not respond well to clutchless changes.
>>
>> The lever doesn't want to come out of gear, even on the over-run, let alone
>> go back in.
well thats a crap ford box for you. Built for hairy armed monkeys.
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...well thats a crap ford box for you...
Zero,
What have you got against engineering excellence?
Look at Harleyman's post below - he's right - those Ford boxes were brilliant compared to what was around at the time.
I reckon the change on a Cortina would still be regarded as pretty good today - 40 years later.
Seems to me your complex is getting more inferior with each post.
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Ifi
Its a game between Humph and I
if you would care to search on here, and on HJ you will see that I have pronounced, more than once, that the finest gear box ever was the 4 speed ford box as used in Mk1 escorts Mk2 cortinas and capris.
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...Its a game between Humph and I...
Looking at his posts about haggis, I thnk he's taken a weird pill tonight.
So I will happily go and stir the six ratios (seven if you count backwards) in the CC3 and leave you to it.
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Granted, not everyone likes haggis. Aquired taste.
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...Granted, not everyone likes haggis. Aquired taste...
I bought one a few years ago from Sainsburys.
It was supposed to be the proper article, made by butcher in Cowdenbeath, if I recall.
Can't remember how I cooked it, probably followed what it said on the packaging.
It went down OK, but I've not bought one since.
I'd like to try it cooked by a skilled Scots chef.
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>> I'd like to try it cooked by a skilled Scots chef.
With a nice bottle of chilled 1959 chateau Bru de Iron.
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I don't know what your definition of 'young' is GB, but as a forty year old, I find it depends on the car you're driving. Our Toyota Yaris has a lovely gearchange, and being small and light encourages you to whip up and down the cogs with ease.
My BMW, while no truck, certainly feels like heavy engineering in comparison, so slow and methodical is the key here, it suits the car. Even if I'm giving it some, I will still change slowly and let the straight six do the business.
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Don't understand this clutchless gear change nonsense.
I've tried it on loads of cars and it crunches like hell, even when pushing the lever with both hands and giving it a shove with my foot.
I'd swear it doesn't do the cogs any good.
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My sister insists on revving in each gear up to about 4000rpm when there isn't a need to do this, as perhaps her ultimate speed is going to be, say, 30/40 mph but I can't seem to get over to her the fruitlessness of her actions.
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The reason it worked so well on older Fords was partly because the lever went directly into the box. The more direct the linkage, the easier it is to change gear without using the clutch. Those of us who drove Cortinas will remember what a joy that gearbox was to use, compared to some modern-day offerings.
I still blip the throttle when changing down the box, as even on a modern car I find it makes for smoother changes. On the pick-up, it being a 3-speed column change such practice is essential if you are to avoid sniffing the windscreen!
GB, my current truck (FM9) has i-shift, and having suffered a manual box in the last one I wouldn't go back for a pension!
Clutchless changes also seem to work better on slower-revving engines which have heavier flywheels. I don't know the science behind this but I bet there's someone on here who does! ;-)
I was always taught to use the highest gear which afforded controllable progress, without labouring the engine.
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>> I've tried it on loads of cars and it crunches like hell, even when pushing the lever with both hands and giving it a shove with my foot
It will if you do it like that! A feather touch on the gear lever is all that's required, along with the ability to match the revs perfectly in between gears. I only used to use the clutch in my MAN 7.5t when moving off and stopping, the engine revved so slowly it was child's play to change gear without using it.
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But when you get it wrong... Surely it's cheaper to replace a clutch than a synchro ring in the gearbox.
Un-convinced whipper snapper here, i'm sticking to my clutch grandads. I do try to rev match though...
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I've never attempted to do clutchless gear changes and never would - sounds like a recipe for a very large repair bill down the line. Fellow posters who do - do you keep your cars for long? Not a flippant question - I'm curious as to whether regular clutchless changes damage the gearbox.
I used to be young, now 41, and I've always tried to change gear as smoothly as possible at 2000 - 2250rpm (diesel engine).
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Well we've had some interesting answers so far, thanks all.
I only ever found clutchless changes to be an improvement on the norm with unsynchro'd gearboxes in trucks, synchro baulks the seamless shift too much for me car or truck, though some boxes are better than others and the lovely older Ford and Japanese boxes were real delights and some as noted above still are.
The violent changes i've witnessed recently seemed to be exacerbated by trying to rush the box and revving too high and then allowing revs to drop too much when the rushed change was missed, and as said above usually accompanied by unsympathetic violent ham fisted operation of steering and brakes making progress slow and lurching, despite constant rushing pushing and shoving and tailgaiting in traffic.
I try to make my changes imperceptable and seamless smooth even unaccompanied, don't know whether thats pride in doing it properly or mechanical sympathy, probably a bit of both.
Without doubt good driving practice does lead to long term vehicle life makes for faster smoother progress and is more economical.
Another aside i'll slip in here whilst talking (rubbish as usual) about driving finesse is those same drivers inability to approach traffic lights or junctions with a view to maintaining momentum, race up to junction and brake hard instead of timing ones approach to take advantage of probable flow, which then entails more rushed mistimed fluffed ham fisted gearchanges as this thread started often preceded by a stall...doh.
My new work truck surprised my by A being manual and B having extremely low engine speed capability...could have been designed 25 years ago and a delight to drive after the frustrating experience that overcomplicated automated manuals have been since 2003, coupled to engines that were incapable of operating below 1000 rpm.
I'm undecided about the 6 and no doubt soon to be 7 speed manual boxes found in modern cars, far too much work involved it seems to me one one hand, but having witnessed the 15/1600 rpm at around 70mph cruising of the daughters new to her 320CD BMW in 6th knowing the economy involved, and to be fair the engine on that is very tractable too and the gearbox pleasant i may have to rethink my stubborn refusal to go back to manual at some point.
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I do clutchless gearchanges (not all the time, and certainly not in cut and thrust urban traffic) because I can do it, without crunching, and without screwing up the gearbox.
But in gently country cruses, approaching lights for example, to slow down without brakes, and slip from gear down to gear with a little throttle blip is akin to painting or sculpting. A work of art.
Those who decry it, simply cant do it. Its that simple. Not my fault you dont have the touch.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 9 May 10 at 08:58
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>> GB, my current truck (FM9) has i-shift, and having suffered a manual box in the
>> last one I wouldn't go back for a pension!
I have to agree with you on Volvo manuals HM, they never were up to much even going back as far as the 88 though the 86 was nice, slow change with too much synchromesh baulking made an easy job hard.
And to be fair to them their auto's are probably the best for being in the right gear at the right time.
The new MB's box is a double H 8 speed ranger...4 gears then move stick harder to the right flicks the range up for the next 4, very simple and this box was widely used by MB and others some 20 years ago but with a splitter too making 16 speed...before they and others went to the dark side with ever more complicated and expensive to fix electronic rubbish which are often useless in imperfect road conditions.
The engine on the new motor doesn't need any more than 8 gears, it will pull quite happily down to 700rpm, cruises in 8th at 1300rpm and the turbo comes on full song at about 800rpm, it's like having a new truck made 25 years ago, a drivers truck, oh and it's doing 10 to 12 mpg on my 38t max (though usually less) work...which i shall monitor over time for an average.
Truck chat continued, i suppose the best gearbox for clutchless changes ever was the 12 speed Eaton twin splitter..the vehicle did have a clutch pedal but it was only meant and used for *starting from rest and stopping* all changes once on the move were clutchless and designed for the driver to match all speeds for clean changes.
** at the very bottom of the clutch travel was a clutch brake button (many boxes had clutch brakes but this was different), this could be used to stop the gears spinning at rest or should the new to this box driver mess the change up which was hell on earth till you learned it would enable a gear to be found, or indeed with practice using the clutch brake one could execute gearchanges faster than a modern paddle shift car...as fast as you could bash the clutch pedal to the floor and release the gearbox would allow the change.
This could be used with an empty trl or solo tractor to outdrag good cars at the traffic light sprint or more properly to enable fast fluid changes on very steep hills.
Incidentally i've never heard of a failure of this box bearing in mind the first time you used one you'd play all sorts of tunes on it and it would take around three months to learn it**
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I try to be smooth with the gears but don't do clutchless changes any more. Dad did clutchless changes on his Mk2 Jag and I learnt on my first car, a Beetle. When I worked for Olivetti I drove a company Mk1 Escort van with my boss passengering from Leeds to Doncaster only using the clutch for starting and stopping for a bet.
Changing down I don't blip the throttle as such, I prefer to load the gas pedal slightly before the change and let the engine speed up as the clutch pedal goes down for a nicely matched change; it seems faster.
Double declutching; I used to be able to do that but don't know how I'd fare if I suddenly had to again. In my coach-driving days one of my charges was an old Bedford Duple with a Chinese-H gate. A generation of ham-fisted drivers had knackered the synchro hunting for gears so double-declutching was essential if odd noises weren't to disturb the passengers.
Smooth; I try. Clutchless on the C8; not at any price with those two fat gear change cables snaking around under the dash on their way to a distant box.
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Smooth progress through the gears. - Zero
