| Motoring Discussion > . . . & what to replace it with. | Buying / Selling |
| Thread Author: tyro | Replies: 75 |
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New Mon 3 Sep 12 13:57
. . . & what to replace it with. - tyro
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OK - probably time for another thread. Elsewhere, I have posted a thread about how my trusty old Ka is getting, well, old. But I'm not sure about what to replace it with. So far the main criteria are as follows: Under £6500 Which means 2nd hand. I don't mind paying for repairs, but I want someone else to pay for the depreciation. Immaculate interior No scuffs, smells, stains. (This is the key thing for my wife, so I thought I'd put it in, even though it doesn't really help one choose a particular make or model.) We used to always buy new cars, but having bought a four year old Berlingo from a dealer which was immaculate inside, the concept of buying used has become quite acceptable. Front or four wheel drive I don't want a rear wheel drive car, because they are not quite as good in the snow. Potential to keep for 5+ years (which means less than 10 years old) I don't believe in changing cars frequently. So I'd like something that is well built and will last. My inclination is to buy something between 5 and 8 years old. Low Centre of Gravity Berlingo has a high centre of gravity, and my wife would like something with less body lean in corners. Less important criteria are: Good on the twisty bits I enjoyed the Ka, so something that is fun on rural roads would be nice. Sunroof The bigger, the better! Reasonable luggage room - estate or hatch - no saloons. I could live with another Ka. But I fancy something with more space. Last edited by: tyro on Mon 3 Sep 12 at 13:58
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New Mon 3 Sep 12 14:04
. . . & what to replace it with. - Runfer D'Hills
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| Fiesta it is then ! |
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New Mon 3 Sep 12 14:13
. . . & what to replace it with. - TheManWithNoName
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What about a Suzuki Swift? A recent copy of Auto Express favoured it over the Hyundai i20. |
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New Mon 3 Sep 12 14:22
. . . & what to replace it with. - Maisie's Dad
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| Let me throw the Mitsubishi Colt into the mix... |
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New Mon 3 Sep 12 15:43
. . . & what to replace it with. - oilburner
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Previous generation Focus 1.6 petrol. Excellent to drive, reasonably economical and pretty reliable too. Lots to choose from (easy to find a very good one, maybe even one with a sunroof, but air-con will be standard) and prices very appealing. £6500 will get you a 2009 car with less than 30,000 miles in Zetec trim with 5 doors. I had one of these for a few days as a loan car, it was great. Couldn't really fault it. |
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New Mon 3 Sep 12 16:04
. . . & what to replace it with. - tyro
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"Previous generation Focus 1.6 petrol." Here's one! And it has a sunroof! And it's within my budget! tinyurl.com/c98gqzw Whoops. Wrong petrol engine. 1.6 is what I'm supposed to be looking for. Ah well, back to the drawing board. ;-) Last edited by: tyro on Mon 3 Sep 12 at 16:05
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New Mon 3 Sep 12 16:08
. . . & what to replace it with. - Runfer D'Hills
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Yeah, but no, but yeah, but...It's an ST ! No logical financial reason to buy it of course...but it'd nip round the Highlands like a good 'un that would...Scrummy ! :-) |
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New Mon 3 Sep 12 16:13
. . . & what to replace it with. - Zero
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Well it has to be the new KA. Hired one in Jersey, a Zetec. Its a cracking little car really good fun, very nippy, refined and no lean round corners. Beats the Fiat 600 into a cocked hat. And you can get plenty of two year old ones, with under 30k on the clock well under your budget. Autotrader has plenty but I would get this one. 2010 Ka Zetec 2010 (60 reg)Hatchback11,500 milesManual1.2LPetrol 3 Doors, Manual, Hatchback, Petrol, 11,500 miles, Red, 2 way manual adjustable passenger seat, 4 way manually adjustable drivers seat, 6 speakers, ABS, Air conditioning, Auxiliary input socket, Body colour bumpers, Body colour door handles, Body colour electric/heated door mirrors, Body colour tailgate handle, Cloth upholstery, Courtesy headlamp delay, Courtesy light delay, Driver and passenger airbags, Front and rear velour floor mats, Front fog lights, Front head restraints, Front passenger underseat storage tray, Front seat back map pockets, Heated windscreen, Immobiliser, Interior stowage net, Isofix, Leather steering wheel, One touch electric front windows, PAS, Power door locks, Privacy glass, Radio/CD + MP3. £6,999 www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201235483513986 |
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New Mon 3 Sep 12 16:16
. . . & what to replace it with. - DP
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Focus would be a good choice. Don't discount the Astra either. It's been a very good car for many years now, but as it was "never quite as good as a Focus", demand is slightly lower, and hence so are resale values. A quick scout of Autotrader shows a 2010 1.8 VVT Elite 5dr manual, with everything on it (heated leather seats, climate, cruise control, auto lights and wipers, etc etc), 46,000 miles, at a main dealer, for £6590. A bit of haggling should net it for comfortably under budget. Loads of 2-3 year old ones under 50,000 miles from £6k upwards. Absolute bargains at that kind of money. Last edited by: DP on Mon 3 Sep 12 at 16:17
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New Tue 4 Sep 12 09:47
. . . & what to replace it with. - TeeCee
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>> Absolute bargains at that kind of money. Yup, with this type of purchase it's always better to look at things that depreciate catastrophically in their early years. Effectively you're getting a car where someone else has either paid for most of it or done all the haggling for you. |
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New Tue 4 Sep 12 10:12
. . . & what to replace it with. - Gromit
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...four wheel drive Potential to keep for 5+ years Low Centre of Gravity Good on the twisty bits Reasonable luggage room - estate or hatch Subaru Impreza hatch, normally aspirated 2 litre petrol if you're not doing high mileage? ...I don't mind paying for repairs... You're unlikely to have to, if you avoid the WRX/STI end of the range, hence the suggestion for a non-turbo version. There were 1.5/1.6 litre petrols and the 2 litre diesel to consider too. |
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New Tue 4 Sep 12 14:33
. . . & what to replace it with. - tyro
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Thanks for all suggestions so far. It's always interesting to see what people will come up with, and the suggestions, of course, will be based on what I wrote in the original post, and how people read what I wrote. I quite deliberately didn't tell people what I was thinking, in the hope that I would get some ideas that I hadn't thought of. I guess that I really have two options. One is that I replace like with like, and get a small car. Some of you have given me your ideas for fun little cars, and many thanks for those. However, I am seriously attracted in paying just a little bit more and getting more of a load lugger - in particular, something like this: tinyurl.com/c2jat6b So I guess that Gromit gets the prize for mind-reading, and oilburner gets honorable mention. By the way, as regards the Ford Focus petrol engines, I take the point that the 1.6 is generally a good one to go for, but what are the 1.8 and 2.0 engines like? |
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New Tue 4 Sep 12 14:49
. . . & what to replace it with. - Gromit
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Snap! Mine's an early 2007 automatic. Successor to a '99 Forester, which had 182,000 miles on the clock when I sold it, and is still going (I met it on the road to Cobh in Co. Cork last month). To answer the question everyone asks, I get 30mpg in mixed cross-country and commuter driving. The lowest I've logged is mid-twenties, fully loaded with bike rack, roofbox, wine, toys, and the aircon on full, on an autoroute run across Brittany back to Roscoff this summer. Go for it, and enjoy - you won't be disappointed. |
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New Tue 4 Sep 12 15:07
. . . & what to replace it with. - Lygonos
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tinyurl.com/swift-sport I've got the latest model of this car, but that means there are a stash of the previous model around the country with delivery miles. £9,999 seems the basic price being asked but I'm sure someone showing up with the readies will walk away with one for under £9,500. A bit over budget but appear reliable and a dream on the twisties. |
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New Tue 4 Sep 12 15:35
. . . & what to replace it with. - oilburner
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>> However, I am seriously attracted in paying just a little bit more and getting more >> of a load lugger - in particular, something like this: tinyurl.com/c2jat6b >> Hmm, that's nice. Good price too. >> By the way, as regards the Ford Focus petrol engines, I take the point that >> the 1.6 is generally a good one to go for, but what are the 1.8 >> and 2.0 engines like? >> Best way to find out is try them. 1.6 was a little noisy on the motorway, so the bigger engines may be better in that regard. I suspect there's very little difference in real world driving performance. |
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New Tue 4 Sep 12 16:10
. . . & what to replace it with. - Focusless
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>> I suspect there's very little difference in real world driving performance. Last time I was lucky enough to purchase a car (5 years ago!) I had successive short test drives in 1.6 and 2.0 Focus estates. To me it felt like there was a big difference, and I bought the 2.0. However those were Focus mk 1s - I guess you're considering more recent variants. |
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New Tue 4 Sep 12 16:45
. . . & what to replace it with. - Zero
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>> I guess that I really have two options. One is that I replace like with >> like, and get a small car. Some of you have given me your ideas for >> fun little cars, and many thanks for those. You are of course hamstrung in one way so ably demonstrated in your previous car search. You live hundreds of miles away from all the good car sources...... |
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New Tue 4 Sep 12 17:26
. . . & what to replace it with. - tyro
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"You are of course hamstrung in one way so ably demonstrated in your previous car search. You live hundreds of miles away from all the good car sources......" Exactly. There is nothing at all on Autotrader within 50 miles of me - and fewer than 1000 with 100 miles. Of course, there are ads in shop windows and local papers, but not a huge choice. I was chatting to a friend, and he bought a vehicle from a dealer 350 miles away without even seeing it. It was at a branch of Arnold Clark in England, and he had it brought up to a branch of Arnold Clark in Inverness. It was a bit of a gamble, but he reckoned that any problems would be sorted out by the dealer. And there is the Sale of Goods Act. However, I wouldn't buy a used car without driving it. And my wife certainly wouldn't! It has to be said that last time we were extremely fortunate - in that we found almost exactly what we were looking for only 120 miles from home. |
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New Fri 7 Sep 12 09:55
. . . & what to replace it with. - tyro
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OK, here's my thinking at the moment. I would like the extra space of an estate car. I have a choice of going down two routes. One is to get a Subaru and be prepared to get something slightly older (say 2003 to 2006), on the theory that Subarus are built to last. They have the advantage of 4 wheel drive (useful in the winter when you live in the middle of nowhere), the low centre of gravity that boxer engines give, and the fact that a lot of them have sunroofs. The Impreza is not really an estate, so that leaves: Subaru Forester Subaru Outback Subaru Legacy (The Forester is that little bit higher, but I'm taking the view that with a boxer engine, it will be no higher than that of an average car.) The other route is to get something newer (2006 to 2010) - the obvious candidates, it seems to me, being: Ford Focus Vauxhall Astra Skoda Octavia Skoda Fabia To which I would add: Renault Clio Sports Tourer - because there are a surprising number up north, and because I've had one as a hire car and liked it Peugeot 207 SW - because it has a panoramic sunroof as standard, and there are very few sunroofs on other newish estate cars. |
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New Fri 7 Sep 12 10:00
. . . & what to replace it with. - oilburner
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| The only problem with the Subaru's where you are is that they're all likely to have been used as farmer's tools and so perhaps not as hardy at this age as you might like? |
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New Fri 7 Sep 12 10:13
. . . & what to replace it with. - tyro
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Good point. What would be the particular problems associated with ex-farm vehicles? (other than muck, filth and stains all over the interior) :-) |
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New Fri 7 Sep 12 10:52
. . . & what to replace it with. - Stuu
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Forester is a fab car. We had an '05 2.0 auto and aside from the 30 mpg, its just about the perfect all round car. They are not all ex-farmer cars and any ex-farmer car would be easy to spot as it would look rather tatty around the edges even when clean - lots of scrapes on the kickplates from wellies, mud ingrained into crevices and check under the front end for scrapes. That said, a car thats tatty is not always going to be uncared for as many of my Forester owning customers still have them serviced no expense at main dealers even when a decade old. Id not be worrying about an older a Forester, they are capable of very high miles if looked after and they have a solid following on account of the ownership experience. Out in the sticks the wealthy tend to favour a Forester or Outback over anything German. I clean a '59 plate Forester and its a rather lovely motor. |
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New Fri 7 Sep 12 11:05
. . . & what to replace it with. - tyro
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>> aside from the 30 mpg, its just about the perfect all round car. MPG is not a big concern. The Berlingo gets about 57mpg, and we do most of our miles in it. The Ford is largely a "back-up car", and has only done about 2500 miles in the past year, and whatever I replace it with will probably not do much more than that most years. How did you find the Forester for body-roll on corners compared to an "ordinary car"? |
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New Fri 7 Sep 12 11:15
. . . & what to replace it with. - neiltoo
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>> What would be the particular problems associated with ex-farm vehicles? Might be full of red diesel |
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New Fri 7 Sep 12 11:33
. . . & what to replace it with. - tyro
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In a 6 year old Subaru, that would be really worrying. :-) |
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New Fri 7 Sep 12 14:52
. . . & what to replace it with. - Gromit
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The seats in the Forester are about the same height off the ground as in a Renault Scenic. The Outback is approx. the same as a Mk 1 Focus with the driver's seat cranked up to its highest position, and the Legacy is lower, a bit more so than a 3 Series. All based on comparing my Forester and Legacy to the cars they replaced. If looking at 2003/2004 Legacy and Outback, bear in mind that the last model (the one from the Auto Trader ad the OP posted) was introduced in October 2004. The previous model was a bit smaller inside, and had a cabin finish closer to that of the mid/late 90s Toyota Carina. If you want a sunroof on a Forester, look for the "all weather pack", or "XT" model; these came with full-length sunroof, heated front seats (welcome on a cold morning!) and headlamp washers. OTOH, if a Skoda Octavia fits the bill, how about the 4x4 models? |
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New Fri 7 Sep 12 21:30
. . . & what to replace it with. - tyro
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Thanks, Gromit. Skoda Octavia estates for sale in these parts are not particularly common - 4x4 ones particularly unusual. Can I ask you the same question I asked Stu: "How did you find the Forester for body-roll on corners compared to an "ordinary car"?" |
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New Fri 7 Sep 12 21:37
. . . & what to replace it with. - Stuu
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Sorry Tyro, that question passed me by, senior moment. As I recall, the chassis is related to the Impreza and its a very chuckable car - its much lower than a normal 4x4 and as it has the boxer engine, that sits very low in the engine bay further helping its centre of gravity. Also very easy to drive in snow. |
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New Fri 7 Sep 12 21:47
. . . & what to replace it with. - tyro
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| Thanks for that, Stu. |
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New Fri 7 Sep 12 21:46
. . . & what to replace it with. - Gromit
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The Forester didn't lean much at all, especially compared to the Scenic I had before it. It also had excellent grip, so you can keep on the throttle just as much as in the Legacy in the bends without it becoming uncomfortable - or slippery - if you're minded to. In that respect, it was certainly more fun than the 3 series we had at the same time. It was also in its element crawling down the rutted bog roads and forest tracks where we walk the dogs. We used it as our main car during two winters of severe (by Irish standards) weather without missing a beat. My FiL, in particular, who was on his third BMW at the time, was very complementary about it, and several passengers remarked on the comfortable ride while travelling what pass for roads around Counties Cork, Clare and Tipperary. Everyone chez Gromit still misses "Suzy"; we'd have another Forester (or even Suzy back) without a moment's hesitation if we didn't have the Legacy instead. |
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New Fri 7 Sep 12 22:07
. . . & what to replace it with. - tyro
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Thanks, Gromit. Sounds like both of you are positive about the Forester as regards body lean. At the moment, the Forester has 3 advantages over the Legacy for me. 1) It is easier to get a sunroof with cloth seats. Most Legacies with sunroofs have leather seats, and I think I would prefer cloth. 2) Better ride, apparently (probably due largely to having deeper profile tyres) 3) Slightly more headroom and a higher seating position, which I like. The Legacy, for its part 1) will be just a little bit grippier, 2) has a bigger boot, and 3) will probably be just a little more anonymous. As my wife once said, driving a 4 x 4 makes it look like you are trying to show off, unless you are a farmer. And I'm the sort of chap that likes to blend in and keep a low profile and not draw attention to myself. :-) "while travelling what pass for roads around Counties Cork, Clare and Tipperary." I've had a few motoring holidays in Ireland. The Irish aren't daft. Whereas in the UK, the powers that be would come up with all sorts of costly ways to stop motorists from speeding, the Irish authorities just didn't bother repairing the roads. It certainly worked a treat with me. I remember the road between Killarney and Tralee was shocking for a main road, and some of the wee roads in Galway and Donegal had me down to a crawl! |
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New Sat 8 Sep 12 20:19
. . . & what to replace it with. - Gromit
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Leather was a dealer-fit option on all Subarus, so there's no hard-and-fast rule as to whether sunroof = leather. The difference in boot size between the Forester and Legacy/Outback is minimal: less than an inch in any useful direction, plus what slight volume you lose in length on the Forester you gain in height. I measured both before buying to check the dogs would fit. There's less difference in headroom than you'd expect - the Forester is essentially a high-riding estate car. Where the Legacy gains is in rear legroom. You feel bumps and ruts less in the Forester. Mine was on deep profile Bridgestone all terrain tyres. The Legacy came with 17" rims and 215 tyres as standard (Bridgestone Potenzas originally). They're excellent for grip, but firmer. Don't worry about negative image, the only reaction of any kind I've ever had to either car was from the Honda Civic brigade mistaking them for unmarked Traffic Corps cars either at home or in France 8-) |
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New Sat 8 Sep 12 22:05
. . . & what to replace it with. - tyro
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Thanks for those observations, Gromit. "Don't worry about negative image," OK, I'll not. But if my wife decides to worry about it, and I can't persuade her otherwise, then it won't be a Forester. At the moment, I've done about all the research that I can do on the computer. Next step is to actually go and drive some vehicles, and decide what I want. I've managed to track down a Legacy and an Outback within 100 miles, but it's nearly 200 miles to the nearest Forester. The fact that there are no Foresters within 100 miles doesn't surprise me - the fact that there is an Outback and a Legacy does! |
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New Sat 8 Sep 12 23:28
. . . & what to replace it with. - NortonES2
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| Is that because they hang onto the Foresters? When car is suited to the owner and the terrain, it is less likely to be got rid:) |
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New Mon 10 Sep 12 12:13
. . . & what to replace it with. - Gromit
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Its because owners hang on to all three cars, just right now a Legacy and an Outback owner happen to have decided its time to change. I've been looking at the market for secondhand Subaru wagons ever since getting my first car (if the local dealer at the time thougth it wierd that a single 25 year old wanted to go from a Fiat Punto to a Legacy estate, he did a good job of hiding it!) - it can take patience to find what you're after. There aren't that many new Subarus sold, and the most of them go to private buyers who want them to do a particular job, so they don't get sold on all that often. My Forester had been with its first owner from new for 10 years and 170,000 miles; the Legacy was traded in against a Ford, and I'm pretty sure that was because the Ford was a diesel. How this made sense when the Legacy had only done 15,000 miles in three years is another matter... |
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New Mon 10 Sep 12 12:06
. . . & what to replace it with. - Gromit
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I should have been clearer in what I meant about Foresters and the sometimes negative perception of 4x4s: I'm not aware that anyone ever took mine to actually be a 4x4. In fact, the only non-petrolhead to even recognise it as a Subaru asked was this one of the cars Jeremy Clarkson says all the posh folk on their estates drive (tounge in cheek, mind you!). I never encountered some of the passive-aggressive angry nonsense sterotypical SUVs seem to evoke in other drivers either. The only differences I noticed when driving it were that I was more likely to be let out of a side road in the Forester than the 3 series, and learners/mimsers/city types in small cars stopped in a queue of traffic had a habit of standing the brake pedal as I came to a stop behind them ... presumably in a nervous warning to the bluff nose looming in their rear mirror to stop rather than run them over ;-) |
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New Mon 10 Sep 12 20:30
. . . & what to replace it with. - Stuu
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>>this one of the cars Jeremy Clarkson says all the posh folk on their estates drive (tounge in cheek, mind you!).<< I know 3 different families with a collective worth between them easily approaching 80 million - they all drive Subaru, one a 7 year old Forester, one a 4 year old one and a 2 year old Legacy for the third. All of them swear by the things. Rich people buy bling, old money buys Subaru. |
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New Mon 10 Sep 12 23:32
. . . & what to replace it with. - Gromit
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In my case, no money bought old Subaru 8-) |
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New Mon 10 Sep 12 23:46
. . . & what to replace it with. - Stuu
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| Yes Gromit, but sling on a Barbour and nobody will know you dont own 5000 acres :-) |
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New Tue 11 Sep 12 11:18
. . . & what to replace it with. - tyro
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>> I should have been clearer in what I meant about Foresters and the sometimes negative >> perception of 4x4s: I'm not aware that anyone ever took mine to actually be a >> 4x4. That's nice to hear. By the way, the Legacy within 100 miles has now been sold. :-( Ah well, plenty more fish in the sea. |
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New Tue 11 Sep 12 11:43
. . . & what to replace it with. - Alanovich
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>> I should have been clearer in what I meant about Foresters and the sometimes negative >> perception of 4x4s: I'm not aware that anyone ever took mine to actually be a >> 4x4. As a well known objector to SUVs, I think that's because the Forester isn't, and doesn't look like, an SUV. Yes, it has 4 wheel drive, but that is not the aspect of of SUVs to which objectors such as I mostly, well, object. There's a clear difference between 4x4 CARS, and SUVs for me. Different beasts, one is all well and good and the other should be confined to farmyards in my (minority, bigoted, unenlightened, closed, communist, fascist, controlling, anti-libertarian, Stalinist, loony leftie, Livingstonian, Orwellian - saving the usual defenders the bother here) mind. I like the (old shape) Forester and would seriously consider owning one if I thought 4 wheel drive would be of benefit to me, and fuel bills weren't a problem. Which is unlikely unless I inherit my mother's farm, lose all common sense and decide to move down to rural West Wales. Although the latest shape Forester is getting a little bit puffed up.......... ;-) |
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New Tue 11 Sep 12 13:27
. . . & what to replace it with. - tyro
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Thanks, Alanović. Your contribution to this thread is particularly valued. It is nice to know that an objector to SUVs considers the (old shape) Foresters not to be SUVs. I guess the whole debate about how people perceive old shape Foresters is interesting. I must confess that I have always seen the things as low SUVs rather than high estates. But if everyone else sees them as estates, then I guess I can relax a little. And if you are willing to confess to actually liking the things, . . . :-) >>minority, bigoted, unenlightened, closed, communist, fascist, controlling, anti-libertarian, Stalinist, loony leftie, Livingstonian, Orwellian Can I recommend that you read Bastiat's The Law ;-) |
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New Tue 11 Sep 12 14:33
. . . & what to replace it with. - Alanovich
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Blimey, tyro. You live in the remote wilds of Sconnie Botland, right? If I were up there, I'd consider owning a proper off-roader a near necessity. Forester territory at least. Actually, thinking about it, I'd probably have a proper/normal car for normal conditions, and something small and cheap like a Jimny in the garage for when the snows/muds came. But a Forester would do the job of both I suppose........... hmmm.......... |
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New Tue 11 Sep 12 14:47
. . . & what to replace it with. - Focusless
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>> But a Forester would do the job of both I suppose........... hmmm.......... But if just going to the shops is a major expedition mileage-wise then the consumption might be more of an issue. |
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New Tue 11 Sep 12 15:07
. . . & what to replace it with. - Alanovich
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| Yes, I suppose. I've been intrigued by the new Peugeot 508 RXH recently, that has 4x4. Seems to me to be the ultimate veehickle for just about any application. Might wait a few years and see how they depreciate. |
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New Mon 1 Oct 12 22:54
. . . & what to replace it with. - tyro
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Update. (I decided not to start a new thread. Should I have? Possibly, but I thought it might be useful to have the whole story on one page.) I've had an outing to test drive a few cars, to try to get a better idea of what I might look for. First, I visited a small Ford dealership, & drove a couple of Fords: 1) A 2006 Mondeo TDCi estate. Nice enough vehicle, but it didn't do much for me. It just felt too big. 2) A 2004 1.6 Focus petrol hatchback. This was the first time in my life that I had ever driven a Ford Focus. I now understood what all the talk was about - they really are nice cars to drive. On reflection, it felt just like my Ka, except a bit bigger. It had been owned, interestingly enough, by the guy who did the valeting for the dealer. This was interesting, in light of some pale reddish marks on the back seats. I asked the salesman if they would come out. He was non-committal. Then I went along to an independent dealer who seemed to specialise in Subarus, and drove: 3) A 2005 Outback. A nice car to drive - definitely better than the Mondeo estate, despite high mileage. Driving position not quite what I'm used to, and felt surprising low for a vehicle with good ground clearance. It had leather seats, and while I probably prefer cloth, there wasn't much in it. Seats were clean, but some scuffs and marks on the sides and ceiling of the vehicle. 4) A 2006 Forester. Again, the driving position was not quite what I was used to, but fine once I got the seat adjusted. I really liked the car. It drove nicely, and had an airy and spacious feel - a bit like a Berlingo, really. The sunroof was a big plus. I didn't know the roads in the area, so my brief test drive didn't incorporate any really twisty bits - but it seemed to be fine for body roll. 5) A 2007 Forester. Similar to the above - but with one big difference - a very stiff clutch. 6) A 2005 Forester with a turbo. Something seemed wrong. The car had an engine warning light on, and didn't seem to be any faster than the vehicles that lacked turbos. It also had a very stiff clutch, and the gear stick was difficult too. It apparently had a full service history. 7) A 2003 Forester which had just come in, and had a fair amount of dirt in the footwells. It drove nicely enough, except that it was far too easy to stall when pulling away. 8) A 2009 Renault Clio estate - a nice clean car, but other than that, there was nothing remarkable about it. It drove OK, but wasn't very interesting. 9) A 2009 Peugeot 207 SW, which was better to drive than the Clio, though the 1.4 petrol engine seemed slightly gutless. I was very taken with the big panoramic sunroof. Conclusions? 1) It was interesting just how different the four Foresters were to drive. 2) While I do feel that an Outback would be more sensible than a Forester, I was quite smitten by the first Forester that I drove. It seemed like my dream car. 3) The Focus was also a revelation. In fact, the sensible side of me says that a Focus with a petrol engine is what I should go for. 4) I'm still thinking about the Peugeot 207SW. That sunroof . . . . I think the thing that interested me was the state of the vehicles at both places. The gent that I dealt with at the second place was using the Outback I test drove as his everyday runabout, so it had some of his stuff on the seats. Fair enough, but not exactly slick. They had another Outback on site, which he offered to jump start for me if I wanted to drive it, since the battery was flat. Presumably it hasn't been driven much recently. The fact that I drove a vehicle that had an engine warning light on struck me as odd. Why hadn't that been dealt with? And the reddish marks on the back seat of the Focus - would they come out or not? Because of my wife's priorities in car purchase, that is a potential deal breaker. How do dealers deal with the business of preparing second hand vehicles? I would have expected the interiors to be cleaned and scrubbed thoroughly so as to impress customers, and then kept clean, and given a final clean once a customer has bought the vehicle. Can I say to the salesman - "Well, if you can get that clean enough to satisfy my wife, I'll buy the car"? And my final reflection was that if I could keep a car clean inside for 8 or 9 years (and my Ka hasn't had a proper clean out for a couple of years) why are some of these cars, which should have had a professional valet, actually less clean inside than my cars? Anyway, the next step is to go with my wife to look at some cars. But finding a time when both of us are free to give a whole day to looking at cars may take some time. In the mean time, I've had another idea for my shortlist. Maybe I should get one of these Kia Cee'Ds which still has several years of warranty remaining. |
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New Mon 1 Oct 12 23:02
. . . & what to replace it with. - Lygonos
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>>6) A 2005 Forester with a turbo. Something seemed wrong. The car had an engine warning light on, and didn't seem to be any faster than the vehicles that lacked turbos. It also had a very stiff clutch, and the gear stick was difficult too. It apparently had a full service history. I had a 2008 turbo - even before it has some Prodrive tweakage it would be impossible to confuse it with a non-turbo. Clutch and gears moved slickly enough. I'd be suspicious the clutches were on their way out on the ones with very heavy pedals - I've driven a Legacy before which felt the same and apparently its clutch died soon after. It only had 70k miles and a FSH - cack-handed (cack-footed?) clutch control in a 4wd that is virtually impossible to wheelspin, especially if used for towing won't help its longevity. Plenty on the forums go way past 100k miles on original clutches (and autotrader usually has a stash of 150-200k mile Forester turbos for sale so they don't seem particularly frail. Remember - cars of 6-7yr old vintage may be being sold due to impending bills. 2-3yr old cars are more likely to be getting shifted as the original owner is bored of them. Last edited by: Lygonos on Mon 1 Oct 12 at 23:03
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New Mon 1 Oct 12 23:10
. . . & what to replace it with. - Zero
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In your geographical circumstances, and based on what appear to be your priorities, I would be looking at Ford Focii. You will have a much bigger choice of cars, and therefore more chance of finding a good one, rather than hunting the much more rarer Subarus - I bet they all get used hard as working tools up there anyway. |
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New Tue 2 Oct 12 00:11
. . . & what to replace it with. - tyro
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>> In your geographical circumstances, and based on what appear to be your priorities, I would >> be looking at Ford Focii. You will have a much bigger choice of cars . . . rather than hunting the much more rarer Subarus . . . . Indeed. Within 200 miles of me, Manual Transmission Petrol Focii in my price range outnumber MTP Subaru estates on Autotrader by about 6 to 1. But interestingly enough, MTP Subaru estates outnumber MTP Focus estates by about 5 to 1. So it may all depend on how much I want an estate. |
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New Tue 2 Oct 12 07:02
. . . & what to replace it with. - WillDeBeest
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| Must be different there. Subarus are hardly abundant but I've never seen a Ford Focius. |
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New Tue 2 Oct 12 08:36
. . . & what to replace it with. - Gromit
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Avoid any Subaru with a heavy feeling clutch. That's how mine felt before it failed at 182000 miles. The €2200 bill to sort it and the rear dampers saw it traded in. Personally, of those cars I'd have the Outback. Remember they'll do similar MPG to the diesel 4x4 you'd need instead to get similar grip in the winter. One last consideration: there's a wider choice of mud & snow tyres available for Forester and Outback than Legacy. |
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New Tue 2 Oct 12 09:09
. . . & what to replace it with. - tyro
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WdB: Groan. Lygonos & Gromit: (Sorry if that sounds like a new series of cartoons) (double groan), Thanks for those helpful comments. I think that the two things that are becoming clear to me are: 1) If I have any reservations at all about a vehicle, walk. 2) I shouldn't be too particular about the type of vehicle I get. In other words, I'll simply look until I find a good Focus Estate, Outback, Forester, Peugeot 207 - and possibly widen that to include things like Focus Hatch, Kia cee'D SW, Kia cee'D hatch, Legacy estate, Lancer estate, Corolla estate. Last edited by: tyro on Tue 2 Oct 12 at 09:10
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New Tue 2 Oct 12 10:36
. . . & what to replace it with. - oilburner
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Tyro, my experience with cars that aren't up to scratch when you view them is that they don't tend to get much better after the dealer "prepares" them for sale. I could spend hours listing broken promises to improve _this_ or clean _that_ up... Some dealers do their prep before a car goes onto a forecourt. Others wait until you commit to buy. I prefer the former scenario, because you know exactly what you're getting, for better or worse. Interesting how most of the Subaru's had faults. I think that points to generally heavy usage as Zero and myself have pointed out. I'm sure a good one would be nice though. |
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New Tue 2 Oct 12 10:49
. . . & what to replace it with. - Mapmaker
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| I'd recommend setting up an Autotrader automatic search email. And waiting until the right car turns up. You're (presumably) not in any rush. |
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New Tue 2 Oct 12 19:14
. . . & what to replace it with. - corax
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>> Avoid any Subaru with a heavy feeling clutch. That's how mine felt before it failed >> at 182000 miles. The €2200 bill to sort it and the rear dampers saw it >> traded in. tyro, on the subject of rear dampers, make sure the Foresters you are looking at don't sag at the rear. The dampers are self levelling and cost £400 if you do the job yourself, more at the dealers. |
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New Wed 26 Dec 12 08:58
. . . & what to replace it with. - tyro
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update: Well, having gone away on holiday to the USA in October (and had some interesting automotive adventures), I never really got back to C4P. However, for those interested, here is what has happened since then. 1) While in the USA, I looked at vehicles as I traveled about. A large part of our stay was spent in the Blue Ridge Mountains of North Carolina, and I was struck by the number of Subaru Outbacks I was seeing. Much more common than Imprezzas or Legacies, and possibly more common than Foresters. I remember walking past a small car park, and of the 21 cars, 5 were Outbacks. A few days later, we (and the people we were staying were) invited out for a meal. We traveled in our hosts' Honda - the other two families arrived in Outbacks. 2) Also while in the USA, looked at Autotrader website. There were a couple of 2nd hand Outbacks at a Subaru dealer near Edinburgh Airport. One was sold a few days before we left America, but the other wasn't. Accordingly, we went straight from the airport to the dealership. The vehicle had been sold the day before - to someone from the south of England. 3) A few weeks later, I was able to visit another Subaru dealership in central Scotland, which had a 2nd hand Forester and a 2nd hand Legacy - both within my price range. Both were in reasonable condition. I had telephoned beforehand, so was rather surprised when the salesman told me that the Legacy's battery had been flat when he started it that morning, so I should try not to stall it, and also that it needed fuel, so he would have to fill it up before I drove it. (I would have thought that a dealership that was on its toes would have had their vehicles ready to drive, especially if given 24 hours notice.) The drives themselves were useful, and helped me sort out my thoughts a little. In particular, finding a decent roundabout (in the absence of a good twisty road) enabled me to test the vehicles for body lean. I decided that the Forester has more than I want, whereas the Legacy is just fine. Pity, because I must confess that when I sit in a Forester, I like the environment, whereas the interior of the Legacy does nothing for me. This particular Legacy, by the way, had done over 20,000 miles since its last service, which concerned me a little. 4) Since then, I have had the bottom of my old rusty Ka waxoyled underneath, and we've been using the Ka a lot. And this is where it gets odd. Strange though it may seem, for my purposes, I like the old Ka better than anything I've test driven. I think it's a more fun car to drive than the Legacy, and I like the interior better than that of the Legacy. And it's driving really well. It's just gone through the 50,000 mile mark, so the engine is fine. Indeed, the engine seems to be running better than ever. To conclude, I know that the Ka will need to be replaced. But I reckon that it is effectively fully depreciated, so it will not cost me anything in depreciation over the next 12 to 18 months. Furthermore, I reckon that while the cost of repairs over the next 12 to 18 months may hit £1500, it is also possible that they will be less than £500. If I get a second hand vehicle for, say £5000 - there is a fair chance that the cost of repairs and depreciation over the next 18 months will exceed £1000. Indeed, if I get it from a dealer, the cost of depreciation will be several hundred pounds the minute I drive it off the forecourt. So basically, I'm still scouring Autotrader - but I'm not in a hurry. I am inclining toward getting another Ford. Spare parts plentiful, fairly cheap to repair, fairly reliable if one sticks to a petrol model, fun to drive, little body lean, and an interior that I quite like. Zero could be right - maybe it will be a new Ka. Or it could be a Focus. And I wouldn't rule out a Fiesta or a Fusion. And I am still considering a Legacy and even a Suzuki Swift or a Peugeot 207. Last edited by: tyro on Wed 26 Dec 12 at 09:01
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New Wed 26 Dec 12 09:51
. . . & what to replace it with. - Runfer D'Hills
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Interesting Tyro. I can totally relate to what you say about the Ka. There is something very pleasing about cars which are basic but fun. Not a new concept, Mk1 Minis, 2CVs, Moggie Minors, Mk 1 Pandas etc all come to mind. I used to love driving our old Ka. Like a little road legal go-kart. So much of the modern and or more fancy stuff somehow detaches the driver from the road and the basic thrills and skills of driving. I quite liked the lack of abs, traction control etc. You as the driver do that bit which somehow is more than fine. At a slightly different level, as I've mentioned before here, I prefer driving my wife's entry level Qashqai to the ( in my opinion ) over specified one I had as company car. I like to decide when the lights should be on, when the wipers need to be on and at what speed etc. As for your next car, well, I always say that these things will feel right on the day. You just know when you've found the one which ticks your boxes and you're quite right not to fret it, especially when, as you point out, you've got a car you like and which in the grand scheme of things, is likely to provide very cheap motoring for a good while yet. Good to hear from you ! What's the weather like up your way ? Any decent skiing available yet this year? Last edited by: Humph D'Bout on Wed 26 Dec 12 at 09:52
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New Wed 26 Dec 12 11:15
. . . & what to replace it with. - legacylad
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Like you Tyro I have friends in the States, who live in Placerville, SW of Tahoe. That part of the world is Outback central. Of the 40+ cars I have owned, only 3 were bought from garages (I think) and one from an early version of DTD. My Mk1 Polo (RWX 566R) was a really fun drive, low powered with fond memories. You will probably know when the right car for you comes along.I am not a mechanic, but am happy buying cars privately relying on my gut instinct.My current car was bought without even driving it. I had short listed about a dozen soft tops , of which there were 3 makes, from AT in mid Nov, and in mid Jan I started phoning up. Without boring you, my car was at the bottom of a quarter mile snow covered drive, the sellers had the paperwork ready to show me, and I knew a test drive was impossible. They both had 4x4s which I had a look at and were immaculate inside, their house was spotless, children well dressed and polite and I was made welcome, being offered refreshment after my hours drive . I knew instantly the car would be fine without even looking at it. And so it proved. I left a deposit, and drove it home 2 weeks later after a thaw. Hope you get a good un like I did. |
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New Wed 26 Dec 12 13:54
. . . & what to replace it with. - Roger.
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When I worked for Lombank, later Lombard North Central, we used for unsecured personal loans (then uncommon) to do what we called "front garden underwriting". Initially every applicant was interviewed in our office, but later this was relaxed. We used bank reports & credit agency reports, but it was "seat-of-the-pants" approval/decline. We, in those far-off days, DID have blacklisted areas, garnered from bitter experience. We then went for a drive past the applicant's house and if the house and garden were tidy it was a plus. IIf the front garden was full of junk, it was a BIG minus |
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New Thu 27 Dec 12 08:47
. . . & what to replace it with. - tyro
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Humph, "I like to decide when the lights should be on, when the wipers need to be on and at what speed etc." You are a man after my own heart. It's partly that I am a bit of a technophobe, but it's also that there are some things I like to make the decision about. That's probably one of the reasons I wouldn't go for an automatic. What's the weather like up your way ? Any decent skiing available yet this year? Weather pretty unremarkable in December. Quite wet over the weekend, but drier on the Christmas day. When we went for our post-Christmas-dinner walk, the ground was very wet underfoot and the burns were very full. When we went for our boxing day walk, the skies were clear, the sun was shining, the ground was a lot drier (and half frozen in places), and the burns back to near normal. I wouldn't know about skiing. There isn't really any skiing in our part of the Highlands. The Highlands are pretty big. As you will remember, Highland Region is almost a quarter of the size of England - and I'm nowhere near the skiing area. (In fact, 2 of the 5 Scottish ski centres are not even in Highland Region.) legacylad, Interesting. One of the conclusions that I have been coming to is that buying from a dealer in some ways means that you know less about the car than if you buy from the owner. To simply be able to meet and speak to the owner gives you a lot of clues about the car. Seeing the owner's house and garden and family gives you a lot of clues about the car. And the wording of the advert can also give you a lot of clues. I have found it fascinating studying private ads on autotrader and the local paper. Some are terrible. Some omit to tell you how old the vehicle is. Others manage to get it just right, or tell you useful things like the mileages at which the car was serviced, or give you other clues as to what sort of person the seller is. |
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New Thu 27 Dec 12 16:38
. . . & what to replace it with. - Fenlander
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Interesting to read the update tyro. You've done well to step back from the brink for a rethink.... many folks would have been on the slippery slope the moment they tested a few possibles and the next thing that happens is the initially desirable but ultimately unsuitable car is on the drive. Seen this a few times with fen folk buying SWB 4WDs after short test drives on the smooth city parkway.... only to sell within the year when a choppy ride becomes unbearable on local bumpy fen roads. Agree with the private vs garage purchase ideas too. Unless you are going for a 3yr old main dealer approved used car with quality warranty then the benefits of a garage over private are minimal and often outweighed by the aforementioned chance to assess the previous owner. You won't have read recent past threads I guess tyro but I've just bought a 9rd old sub-£1000 Alfa privately. When viewing I got the chance to see the guy's nice house, mild mannered wife polite kids... to find out he'd owned the car 6yrs and bought the same make again. All the history and books were there... both keys... everything down to the radio code. Also got the impression he was a steady driver confirmed by flipping through the trip computer to see a very respectable mpg recorded. It all helps build a picture that the dealer experience largely obscures. This compares with similar cars in the smaller garages which were often 50% more expensive yet lacking these things like history, second plip key, radio code etc etc. |
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New Thu 27 Dec 12 17:46
. . . & what to replace it with. - Westpig
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>> Unless you are going for a 3yr old main dealer approved used car with quality warranty >> then the benefits of a garage over private are minimal Depends. Any dealer has to offer Sale of Goods Act i.e. 3 months come back if something major goes wrong. You don't get that with a private buy. I know some dealers are still in the shyster bracket, but equally so some are not. Recommendation can work well on that, can't it. >> and often outweighed by the aforementioned chance to assess the previous owner. I take the point...but...people with immaculate homes and seem 'nice' can still sell a car with a fault. |
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New Thu 27 Dec 12 21:00
. . . & what to replace it with. - tyro
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Fenlander "You've done well to step back from the brink for a rethink.... many folks would have been on the slippery slope the moment they tested a few possibles ..." I have my wife to hold me back! after short test drives Decent test drives are pretty important. Before we bought our Ford Ka back in 2003, we had driven one as a courtesy car for a few days and put a few hundred miles on it. We knew exactly what we were getting! You won't have read recent past threads I guess tyro You are quite correct - but I have found the relevant threads and am reading through them - and finding them interesting. As for private vs dealer, Westpig's points are well made. There are potential advantages both ways. In the end, I'm willing to go either way. |
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New Thu 27 Dec 12 21:45
. . . & what to replace it with. - Westpig
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P.S. I know where you can get hold of a 2005 Ford Focus 1.6 Zetec, petrol, immaculate, 63,000 miles, for sensible money. If it might suit, ask a friendly Mod for my e-mail address. |
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New Fri 28 Dec 12 09:08
. . . & what to replace it with. - tyro
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| Westpig, you have email. |
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New Fri 28 Dec 12 12:53
. . . & what to replace it with. - Westpig
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>> Westpig, you have email. >> Thank you, I've now replied |
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New Thu 27 Dec 12 23:26
. . . & what to replace it with. - Fenlander
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>>>private vs dealer, Westpig's points are well made. There are potential advantages both ways. In the end, I'm willing to go either way. I guess as the ratio of car availability for any particularly model is 20-50 times greater at dealers than from private owners people are happy (or forced) to go to dealers or their choice is very limited. My beef with dealers is that they are in it for profit so the less mechanical prep they do the more they make. If at all possible I like to keep their profit margin in my pocket for investment in preventative maintenence that will likely prolong the life of the car... or at least increase the possibility of greater reliailbity. To me that is a greater asset than any 3mth warranty. |
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New Fri 28 Dec 12 00:04
. . . & what to replace it with. - tyro
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>> I guess as the ratio of car availability for any particularly model is 20-50 times >> greater at dealers than from private owners Indeed. One way of looking for a second hand vehicle (something I've been playing at this evening) - is going to Autotrader, and doing a search for any vehicle at all from private owners within one's price range which has got (or claims!) a full service history. Obviously, a lot of vehicles may not be what one is looking for, but you never know. My results, by the way, tell me that a remarkably high proportion of vehicles advertised with FSH from private sellers seem to be VWs or Toyotas. |
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New Fri 28 Dec 12 15:32
. . . & what to replace it with. - Fenlander
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>>>One way of looking for a second hand vehicle (something I've been playing at this evening) - is going to Autotrader, and doing a search for any vehicle at all from private owners within one's price range which has got (or claims!) a full service history. Ditto here after I'd seen a few of the iffy dealer offerings (albeit at a much lower price than you will be considering). But isn't your area a challenge due to the tiny numbers of cars for sale. Within 100mls of the area I guess you live, and looking up to £4k and 80,000mls, there are just 56 cars and only two private sales. Where we live the same search brings up 1700 private sales and 22,700 in garages. |
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New Fri 28 Dec 12 16:47
. . . & what to replace it with. - tyro
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"But isn't your area a challenge due to the tiny numbers of cars for sale. It certainly is! I'm going to be in central Scotland for a couple of days next week, so I entered my sister's postcode at looked at cars up to £6000. Came up with things like www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201211224341168 www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201212124599419 www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201211214319783 www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201212164637975 |
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New Fri 28 Dec 12 20:24
. . . & what to replace it with. - Ateca chris
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Have you thought about a mazda 3 japanese reliability and a lot of car for little money if you go for a 1.6 petrol in a ts2 or takara model. |
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New Fri 28 Dec 12 21:00
. . . & what to replace it with. - sooty123
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| Didn't they share a lot of parts with Ford? (Not that there is anything wrong with that) |
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New Fri 28 Dec 12 21:32
. . . & what to replace it with. - Ateca chris
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| Not sure about the 3 and the focus but my 2006 mazda 6 shares the same 2ltr petrol engine with the mondeo except for the vvt on the mazda. Suspensions are different and the interior fit and finish is better on the mazda.( i can say that as iv owned a mk 3 mondeo). |
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New Fri 28 Dec 12 21:41
. . . & what to replace it with. - sooty123
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| Always seemed good value. I worked with someone who had a Mazda 6, in 3 years not even a lightbulb, bar service items, he said he had to change. |
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New Fri 28 Dec 12 21:43
. . . & what to replace it with. - tyro
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Yes, the Mazda 3 has attracted my attention, as has the Mazda 2. I read a comment that the Mazda 3 was not very good on snow, but my general feeling is that while I wouldn't rule one out, there are not very many for sale. Autotrader shows not a single Mazda 3 under £7000 for sale within 100 miles of me. |
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New Fri 28 Dec 12 21:46
. . . & what to replace it with. - sooty123
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| Not fancy late plate of the older shape? |
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