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As the title suggests, a place to discuss Formula One, and all other types of motorsport (excluding MotoGP, which has a section of its own).
PLEASE NOTE:-
To try and maintain some kind of logical order of discussion, if you start a new subject then reply to this post and remember to change the default subject header.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 8 Sep 12 at 21:03
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Not the best circuit, but a complex and exciting race. Hamilton very unlucky again, Button's season looking up at last, Alonso still looking like the class of the field, my man Kobayashi at the foot of the podium at last thanks to Vettel's demotion from second to fifth for the illegal Button overtake.
I didn't expect that to happen, it being Germany and all. I expected some lesser penalty, grid penalty next race, big fine, that sort of thing. But the stewards are international.
Schumacher drove well. But then he always does.
Not a great race, but more interesting than most. If it doesn't rain in Hungary McLaren should do well. Of course that's another Mickey Mouse circuit.
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Sour grapes for Vettel.
Sebastian Vettel hit out at Lewis Hamilton for unlapping himself during the German Grand Prix in a bizarre incident, calling the McLaren driver's actions "stupid".
uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/vettel-fury-stupid-hamilton-145456817.html
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>> Sour grapes for Vettel.
>>
>> Sebastian Vettel hit out at Lewis Hamilton for unlapping himself during the German Grand Prix
>> in a bizarre incident, calling the McLaren driver's actions "stupid".
>>
>> uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/vettel-fury-stupid-hamilton-145456817.html
I'm surprised that an F1 driver would have such an excitable nature. I remember Lewis Hamilton running into the back of Kimi Reikkonen a few years ago when Kimi was waiting at the red stop light at the end of the pits a few years ago and all Kimi did was point to the red light. That's how cool Vettel should be.
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>> I'm surprised that an F1 driver would have such an excitable nature.
Jenson might have mentioned the war prior to them going up on the podium ;)
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>> I'm surprised that an F1 driver would have such an excitable nature.
I'm not. Remember Shumacher's interminable histrionics after running up the back of a slowly circulating Coultard in a rain-drenched Spa that he should have won?
Blatantly his fault, yet Michael insisted that Coultard had deliberately slowed up on seeing him approach and the merest mention of that incident would induce a spittle-flecked rant years later.
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Excitable? F1 Driver? ono surely not
www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JogHiSR5P4
It has ever been thus.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 23 Jul 12 at 10:51
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Sorry TeeCee, but Coulthard later (in his book) admitted that he had slowed down deliberately, and he then apologised to Schumacher for the incident...
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Team orders to delay Vettel as much as possible in order to aid Jensen, probably.
Get over it, sour k****. (German pickled cabbage Mr. Swear Filter!)
Last edited by: Roger on Mon 23 Jul 12 at 11:54
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I guess you mean sauerkraut, but it probably won't like that either.
I'm not sure he is unfairly sour. He has a point. Hamilton of course has a right to unlap himself if he can but Vettel had a point. Hamilton wasn't going to make any meaningful difference to his own result, if anything he would spoil his own chances degging his tyres scrapping with Vettel. Of course if it was just a team effort to hold Vettel up then fair enough if its allowed.
Vettel on the whole is a fairly affable sort of egg. I suppose the test would be if he would really have behaved differently in the same circumstances, and only he can know that.
EDIT - pickled cabbage OK apparently, just xenopuns objected to ;-)
Last edited by: Manatee on Mon 23 Jul 12 at 12:32
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Was there a Grand Prix today??
changed title to the race being discussed.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 30 Jul 12 at 01:34
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yes
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 30 Jul 12 at 01:36
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Yes. Hamilton won. Led from start to finish. It was the Hungarian GP.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 30 Jul 12 at 01:35
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A boring race by all accounts but atleast Hamilton has shown some speed and luck, which will keep the title interesting.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 30 Jul 12 at 01:35
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He won despite his pit lane team having a very mixed performance. Some wheel-changes were brilliant but some were back to the fumbles of early season. Why Button was running a different tyre strategy is a mystery.
P.S. Not sure why the period between races varies from 1 to 3 weeks
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 30 Jul 12 at 01:35
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The next GP in Belgium is a full 5 weeks away. They have done similar for the last couple of years, in order to give the teams a break. They MUST not shut down for 2 weeks before they can start again to develop their cars.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 30 Jul 12 at 01:35
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>> Grosjean strikes again.
>>
Just watched it through carefully a couple of times. and it looks that way.
Maybe Hamilton could have got out of it, and clearly that would have been a wise course with hindsight - but why would he assume that Grosjean was going to nerf him off? Drivers get close and intimidate each other all the time and it must have looked like that to Hamilton, until it was too late.
Easy from the armchair.
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>>>> Grosjean strikes again.
>>
>>Just watched it through carefully a couple of times. and it looks that way.
So do others!
Romain Grosjean has been given a one-race ban for causing the first-corner crash at the Belgian Grand Prix.
The 26-year-old Frenchman, who has been involved in seven first-lap crashes in 12 races this season, was also fined 50,000 euros (£40,000).
www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/19458954
(Michael Schumacher was the last driver to serve a ban. His was in 1994 )
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Also
Maldonado has a 10-place grid penalty for jumping the start and causing his own, independent, accident.
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He probably thought at the time he had such a good start! I would think his jumping the start was part of the problems that led to the accident too.
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First pole for 3 years and these stats
Races entered: 261
Wins: 25
Podiums: 70
Pole positions: 22
Fastest laps: 20
Race win percentage: 9.58%
How is this worth £60 million for a 5 year contract?
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.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 2 Sep 12 at 14:43
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I like Button. Seems like a "proper" racing car driver should be.
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Fine - he is a nice chap and he has won another race since the stats I quoted were compiled. Is a 10% success rate in any field of endeavour worth £12 million a year?
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>>Is a 10% success rate in any field of endeavour worth £12 million a year?
To the people are paying it, the answer would appear to be yes. And much as there is a wish for different, it is right now a reasonably free country so if they wish to pay it, they can.
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And what is a "proper" racing car driver?
In the past racing drivers have been mostly irascible, opinionated, difficult, dangerous, aggressive or eccentric characters.
Button seems to have none of the attributes.
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>> irascible, opinionated, difficult, dangerous, aggressive or eccentric characters.
>> Button seems to have none of the attributes.
No, he's obviously useless. Sneaked up on pole and in the race looked like someone taking a Sunday drive in the Ardennes. I don't think he saw another car in his mirrors after the first few laps.
Grosjean ruined the race to an extent by punting Hamilton at the first corner taking out several main contenders including the undeserving Maldonado. Kobayashi survived but his race was ruined too. Raikkonen's overtake of Schumacher for third place was fantastic even if Schumacher had run out of tyres.
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Red Bull gambled on short gearing and were running out of revs on the long Spa straights.
On eccentric drivers, one I remember with particular affection is the gentleman amateur, Italian I think, who won the Mille Miglia (or perhaps Targa Florio, one of the Italian public-road races anyway) in the mid-fifties in a Ferrari, chain-smoking Havana cigars and putting away most of a bottle of brandy during the race. Chapeau!
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And by the way, was the interview on the podium a new thing that is going to be a regular feature? I think it's a bit cruel to make drivers talk. They aren't all good at it and their teams won't let them say much anyway.
As it happened though the interviewer, Jacky Ickx, in a way stands above any of today's interviewees: he campaigned in Porsche 917s which could beat everything in their day but were only for the very brave, killing two or three top drivers including Pedro Rodriguez.
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>> And by the way, was the interview on the podium a new thing that is
>> going to be a regular feature? I think it's a bit cruel to make drivers
>> talk. They aren't all good at it and their teams won't let them say much
>> anyway.
They seemed a lot more comfortable and adept then Ickx! No doubt a brilliant driver, but not a natural interviewer.
Isn't being a racing driver these days largely about pleasing the sponsors (leaving aside the small matter of piloting an F1 car of course), which involves lots of meeting and greeting and doing 'media'. So they ought to be happy doing that sort of thing.
I've missed a few races so don't know if it's new, but I quite liked them being interviewed in front of fans rather than just members of the press. I felt it made them a bit more responsive.
Last edited by: Focus on Sun 2 Sep 12 at 16:40
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>> And by the way, was the interview on the podium a new thing that is
>> going to be a regular feature?
>>
Seems to have become a regular feature at every race from Silverstone onwards.
I think they should do away with those top-three post race interviews, as the drivers are questioned in the media "pen" later anyway.
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>> a regular feature at every race from Silverstone onwards.
Not actually on the podium surely? Or have I failed to notice? In the interview room afterwards I thought, as usual.
Ickx was a bit nervous I thought, and stiffly well-prepared, with a little speech for each driver. He did well for an old man of action. They are often a bit wordless. Did anyone catch the Kobayashi pits radio clip?
Pit: Are you saving your tyres Kamui?
Kobayashi: No.
Pit: Can you go any faster?
Kobayashi: No.
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>> I think it's a bit cruel to make drivers
>> talk. They aren't all good at it and their teams won't let them say much
>> anyway.
Especially Raikkonen, who I never liked much because he was such a miserable sod in interviews, but I actually like him for it now. There's something quite amusing about that deadpan persona of his, as if he doesn't give a monkeys. Maybe down to his Scandinavian roots, but Hakkinenn was never like that. Or more likely the amount of drink he pours into himself.
That overtake was superb, same as Vettels overtake in Monza last year.
www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/14874895
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 5 Sep 12 at 01:37
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>> There's something quite amusing about that deadpan persona of his, as if he doesn't give a monkeys.
>>
He does. www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MlsMVzrp2o
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 5 Sep 12 at 01:36
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>>In the past racing drivers have been mostly irascible, opinionated, difficult, dangerous, aggressive or eccentric characters.
Fair point. (although eccentric is fine)
I mean he is a "proper" racing driver like the ones I used to read in the Eagle and the Victor, amongst other places.
What I think a racing driver *should* be like.
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>> >>In the past racing drivers have been mostly irascible, opinionated, difficult, dangerous, aggressive or eccentric
>> characters.
>>
>> Fair point. (although eccentric is fine)
>>
>> I mean he is a "proper" racing driver like the ones I used to read
>> in the Eagle and the Victor, amongst other places.
>>
>> What I think a racing driver *should* be like.
Ah! the square jawed, boyish, slightly shy hero Englishman.
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>>Ah! the square jawed, boyish, slightly shy hero Englishman.
...pretty girl on each arm, glass of champagne, casino membership, faithful dog, all that stuff.
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>> ...pretty girl on each arm, glass of champagne, casino membership, faithful dog, all that stuff.
Scores the winning run against the Aussies at Lords, In the First 15 at rugger, an Oxford blue - stroke no less -, arctic explorer, mountain climber, holds the record on the cresta run, expert shot, unruly lock of hair.
Yes i know the type.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 2 Sep 12 at 16:13
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Whereas Hamilton gets right up my nose.
For all I know the chap is perfectly pleasant if you meet him, but I find him smarmy, full of excuses and irritating.
He'd be the resentful, spiteful, tattle-telling teachers' pet at our hero's prep school.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 2 Sep 12 at 16:17
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>> Whereas Hamilton gets right up my nose.
>>
Yes, he does that to a lot of people.
His inappropriate tweets, his ghetto slang, and too many "instagram" pics get up my nose too.
Hamilton comes from the opposite background to Button. He has not learnt ,or not been taught, the art of diplomacy (mind you, neither Zero nor I could not teach him anything about that!). He says things as he sees them straight, he is not two-faced unlike some of the cleverer drivers. I think he would probably fail to get an E in a media studies GCSE exam, let alone any other subject. However, he does have a natural flair for racing.
The cleverest, most intelligent and most media savvy, in my estimation at least, are Alonso and Vettel - both of them are so far ahead of the rest of the field on those categories that they could easily get first class honours degrees from the top Universities in the world.
However, having said all that, Hamilton is still an exciting driver to watch and is partly the reason I bother to follow F1.
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>>He says things as he sees them straight, he is not two-faced
Hamilton is NOT? I'd say he sees things from a selfish, it wasn't my fault, the team should be grateful for having me, point of view.
I'd agree he talks without thinking, but not in any virtuous way.
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Mark Webber is always good for an interview after something contentious - he tells it how it is.
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>> Hamilton is NOT?
I think he is naive, but certainly not two-faced.
>>I'd say he sees things from a selfish, it wasn't my fault, ...
>>
A couple of times, maybe yes.
>> the team should be grateful for having me ..
>>
perhaps I am partial, but I don't see that at all.
>> I'd agree he talks without thinking, but not in any virtuous way.
>>
he talks within the limits of his vocabulary, and at times he is quite virtuous with it.
Opinions about his twitter feed and his use of colourful ghetto language[*] are divided too. I don't like it all, but apparently a lot of people - supporters or not - do.
WTF, Homie, etc. are perhaps the norm on Twitter. But for a F1 driver paid millions by corporate sponsors the use of other slang such as Mofo and HAM may not be acceptable.
Note that "HAM" is not a reference to the short name used for him by FIA on their timings feed, it is used in the context of usage by his friends' KanYe and Jay-Z.
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>> >>Ah! the square jawed, boyish, slightly shy hero Englishman.
>>
>> ...pretty girl on each arm, glass of champagne, casino membership, faithful dog, all that stuff.
You mean James Hunt?
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>> Ah! the square jawed, boyish, slightly shy hero Englishman.
Mike Hawthorn minus the shy.
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>> How is this worth £60 million for a 5 year contract?
They're paying for what they think he can do, not what he's done.
And although the driving comes first, there's more to consider when it comes to attracting sponsors. I imagine Button gives them fewer headaches than Hamilton.
Anyway, you're as good as your last race result - and that was a win ;-)
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>> >> How is this worth £60 million for a 5 year contract?
>>
>> They're paying for what they think he can do, not what he's done.
>>
Exactly.
They are paying him based on the statistics from 2009 onwards, not from 2000 that Meldrew prefers to whinge about.
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I am not whinging - I am quoting! You can read it and make up your own mind.
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>> I am quoting! You can read it and make up your own mind.
>>
2009 - winner
2010 - 5th
2011 - runner up
2012 - ?
Last edited by: John H on Sun 2 Sep 12 at 17:11
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>> >> >> How is this worth £60 million for a 5 year contract?
>> >>
>> >> They're paying for what they think he can do, not what he's done.
>> >>
>>
Most of the 60 milion is danger money, even 10 million is too much for performance.
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>> First pole for 3 years and these stats
>>
>> Races entered: 261
>> Wins: 25
Until today, Button had 13wins. He now has 14.
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Looks like a discrepancy in the source info!
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The boy's doing well.
Jack Brabham, Emmerson Fittipaldi and Graham Hill all had 14 wins. The next stat to beat will be Stirling Moss on 16.
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>> The boy's doing well.
>>
>> Jack Brabham, Emmerson Fittipaldi and Graham Hill all had 14 wins. The next stat to
>> beat will be Stirling Moss on 16.
More opportunities these days. Fangio, IIRC correctly, won about half of his 50 or so Grand Prix.
To be fair I think that includes a few finished in the car he took over from his team mate! It might be fun to re-introduce that rule.
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Fangio. 24 wins from 51 starts and won 5 World Championships with 4 different teams (Alfa, Ferrari, Mercedes and Maserati) Hope this source is better than the Button one I found!
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>> www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/19489930
>>
>> Says Eddie Jordan
>>
There appears to be some friction between him and Whitmarsh - going back two or more years. Hamilton might even accept lower pay at another team to get away from Whitmarsh.
It wouldn't surprise me at all if Hamilton didn't sign with anyone and gave up F1 for a year or two or even altogether - it is what he has hinted between the lines of his straight talking.
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I wouldn't be surprised if Button's people skills are better within the team, and Hamilton's nose is out of joint, particularly before the last race when he had a bigger lead over Button.
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After he tweeted all the technical running data about the car I would have chucked him through the pits doors complete with his luggage.
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I thought it was funny that when Red Bull's Christian Horner was being interviewed by Coulthard/Jordan he made a point of mentioning that Hamilton's tweet provided them with some useful info.
Last edited by: Focus on Wed 5 Sep 12 at 19:43
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>> I thought it was funny that when Red Bull's Christian Horner was being interviewed by
>> Coulthard/Jordan he made a point of mentioning that Hamilton's tweet provided them with some useful
>> info.
>>
Horner is probably the next most "shrewd" person to Ecclestone on the F1 circuit. (I don't wish to make mischief, and so "shrewd" is a word I use advisedly, as the real word could land me in deep water).
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>> After he tweeted all the technical running data about the car I would have chucked
>> him through the pits doors complete with his luggage.
>>
So would I....
.... and if I ran another team, no way would I hire a loose cannon like him....
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>>and if I ran another team, no way would I hire a loose cannon like him....<<
I bet Williams would, he is tamer than Pastor.
On a serious note, Lewis seems utterly fed up with McLaren not giving him a good car and Im sure a change of team might just be what he needs - look what its done for Button.
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>> On a serious note, Lewis seems utterly fed up with McLaren not giving him a
>> good car and Im sure a change of team might just be what he needs
>> - look what its done for Button.
>>
Hamilton is happy with the car, he knows it is fast.
He is fed up with the chief strategist.
Last edited by: John H on Wed 5 Sep 12 at 20:40
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>> On a serious note, Lewis seems utterly fed up with McLaren not giving him a
>> good car and Im sure a change of team might just be what he needs
>> - look what its done for Button.
He needs to go to Redbull or Ferrari to get better, and they dont want him, and moving to McClaren has done nothing for Button.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 5 Sep 12 at 20:51
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>>moving to McClaren has done nothing for Button. <<
I disagree. It was always the case that Button won his world title because his car was the advantage, but he needed to stack up against others in a more even field to validate his ability beyond the machine - something I feel he has done, though he is very set-up sensitive and it shows in the results.
I think Hamilton has been at McLaren too long and even if he had to drop to somewhere like Sauber, it might do him alot of good to have a change of scenery.
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>> >> After he tweeted all the technical running data about the car I would have
>> chucked
>> >> him through the pits doors complete with his luggage.
>> >>
>>
>> So would I....
>>
>> .... and if I ran another team, no way would I hire a loose cannon
>> like him....
>>
Button has not wasted any time using the opportunity to rub the salt in to Hamilton's tweet wounds.
If I was a team Owner, I should first fire the team Principal or CEO, then ensure that the new CEO puts in place rules forbidding staff from using their phones/cameras to record anything while on Company business.
A company that I am closely familiar with has rules of a similar nature, and also absolutely forbids photographs being taken during after hours company events ("jollies" to you and me).
p.s. one F1 CEO apparently has the nickname "weak-marsh".
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>>place rules forbidding staff from using their phones/cameras
On the occasions I have been within the borders of F1 territory, I have usually had my phone taken away, never mind being told not to use it.
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>> >>place rules forbidding staff from using their phones/cameras
>>
>> On the occasions I have been within the borders of F1 territory, I have usually
>> had my phone taken away, never mind being told not to use it.
You are not one of the team drivers.
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I take your point, but I'm still surprised that he managed to photograph a document, which is I assume what he did.
I can't imagine he was sneaking around at night with a flashlight, I imagine he was being fairly open.
You'd have thought someone would have said something.
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>> I take your point, but I'm still surprised that he managed to photograph a document,
>> which is I assume what he did.
>>
The document is all over the internet. Here is one link:
www.pitpass.com/47154-Hamilton-gives-insight-into-qualifying-woes
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>> You are not one of the team drivers.
>>
Only one driver - LH - has used his phone to publish photos taken inside the garage.
Before that, two years ago, only one PR person, the daughter of Frank Williams used to do so.
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James Allen says that he heard the rumour from an "insider" on Monday but did not publish it as he thought it was not credible.
However, looking back at what Lewis said on Friday 31 August, I think Lewis will join Mercedes either in 2013, or take a year out and then join Mercedes in 2014.
From
www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/aug/31/lewis-hamilton-mclaren-contract
“When asked on Friday whether there was a sticking point the driver revealed: “There are lots of things. You never just sign a contract that’s given to you. Most of the time it’s ****. There are still lots of factors to be taken into account.”
And when asked whether he saw himself at McLaren next year, Hamilton sounded even more vague. He said: “I don’t see myself anywhere at the moment. I really don’t because it is difficult to picture what is going to happen in the future.
“It is quite a difficult, interesting time in Formula One at the moment. If the rules were to stay the same for the next five years it would make the decision a lot easier. But you don’t know what is going to happen because in 2014 the rule regulations change quite heavily. So you don’t know what is going to be the place.
“In the end you have to take a gamble on that, though, don’t you, and I am not much of a gambler. I always lose money at the casino!”
Last edited by: Webmaster on Wed 19 Sep 12 at 01:33
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Hamilton is fast becoming a first class (male bird).
He is privileged to be where he is, earns a fortune even in the world he is in and doing something he loves...and yet it still isn't good enough.
He has surrounded himself with first class pillocks and is fast becoming a petulant spoilt brat.
What a shame...no doubt his father is/was itching to tell him to get rid of his showbiz management and all the nightclub hangers-on.
I foresee a self inflicted downfall. Shame, he's a damned good driver.
Last edited by: Westpig on Thu 6 Sep 12 at 19:08
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I can't stand him ! Have always felt that he was over rated and over hyped. Comes across as smug spoiled arrogant sulky brat always blaming anyone/everyone else for his mistakes - IMHO.
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>>Have always felt that he was over rated and over hyped<<
Sorry but anyone who can win a world championship can hardly be over rated, especially with this generation of drivers where the top is littered with world champions.
I dont like Vettel because he is only happy when he is winning and does a heck of a sulk when he isnt, but I still rate him as a driver, just not a person.
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>> I dont like Vettel because he is only happy when he is winning and does a heck of a sulk when he isnt
Most sporting champions are a bit like that, aren't they? These people aren't like you and me.
I find some of the comment on Lewis Hamilton distasteful. Petulant, full of excuses, blaming others for his own mistakes... I haven't seen anything like that. It's veiled racism if you ask me.
I wouldn't expect to have much in common with any of these cats. They are what they are and I'm more than happy to watch them in action. That's what they are for.
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'scuse me, I think that Hamilton is closely related to Parus Major and you take that to mean I'm exhibiting veiled racism?
I have to assume I misunderstood. Either that or you live in a weird old world.
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Take it easy FM2R, I named no names and am just as capable of being wrong as the next person. In any case you are a most unlikely closet racist.
But there's a type of criticism that does suggest something like that to me. I may be oversensitive in this area but I've heard a lot of bull over the years.
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>>I may be oversensitive in this area
I think so. There may be some less than ideal motivation, mostly around the need to tear people down, but I would doubt a racial motivation.
"That's racist" these days seems to me to be a go-to phrase, whereas I suspect "that's obnoxious" would be more accurate.
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I quite like Vettel. He came across as someone I'd get on with better than say Hamilton. Vettel has a sense of humour from what little I've seen of him in some interviews.
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>It's veiled racism if you ask me.
That's a rather harsh conclusion to come to AC.
Posters here who expressed universal admiration for olympic athletes of every colour suddenly become closet racists when they criticise Hamilton?
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Well, perhaps there isn't any veiled racism except in my imagination. As I said, I named no names and don't accuse anyone here.
But... but... these things sort of hang in the air. They get expressed somehow without anyone being overtly racist. As I say, I may be oversensitive in this area - like the troublemaking 'anti-racists' who eagerly take offence on behalf of people who aren't offended themselves. I don't mean any harm by it.
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>> I find some of the comment on Lewis Hamilton distasteful. Petulant, full of excuses, blaming
>> others for his own mistakes... I haven't seen anything like that.
>>
Ditto. I like Lewis and don't think he is overrated at all. Hamilton is already quite rich, a multi millionaire living in Monaco, and he can afford to give up F1 for a year or two or maybe altogether. Mercedes value him at £60m for 3 years, according to today's rumours printed on Sky's F1 website. If he can earn that sort of money, it matters not what anyone on this forum thinks of him and whether we indulge in the politics of envy. In recent weeks he has built up a following of over 1 million on Twitter. That is worth a lot to the corporates that sponsor him. It matters to the corporates that he has a big following in the East. According to twitter, Hamilton is lined up to showcase a Vodafone event in Mumbai in a few weeks time. The amount of interest that has generated over there is of immense value to Vodafone.
If he comes across as claimed on here, it is probably due to his vocabulary not being to the same standard as Button's.
So hate him, revile him, call him names, be nasty to him - it matters not a jot to him as there are millions out there who love him.
In a report today, Lewis is quoted saying:
".... “The life I have had has been very controlled and I am taking control of it,” said Hamilton, ahead of Sunday’s Italian Grand Prix.
“I am allowing myself to get who I am out, rather than the corporate McLaren driver some people want you to be.
“You only see certain things in F1, it can be very sterile and people think, ‘Oh, they are boring individuals’. But actually we like to do fun things other people enjoy in their personal time.”
He went through the one-million mark of Twitter followers this week and he is right – drivers are showcased in corporate colours which bear little relation to the real world of their peers. “I am starting to put out there the things I do and there is more to come,” said Hamilton.
“I hope I can do more – but I don’t know what is in the future. But I am becoming aware of the possibilities. Social networking is a great way of connecting with people around the world. It’s not just about racing, it’s about connecting with the fans, without whom we would not be here.” ..... "
>> It's veiled racism if you ask me.
>>
It may be so, but the overt racism that is displayed towards Hamilton on some unmoderated forums has to be seen to be believed.
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>> “You only see certain things in F1, it can be very sterile and people think,
>> ‘Oh, they are boring individuals’. But actually we like to do fun things other people
>> enjoy in their personal time.”
>>
What, with that Nicole whats-her-face? I can just imagine what fun things he might enjoy ...
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>> What, with that Nicole
>>
No, without her -
www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2173702/
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>> It's veiled racism if you ask me.
There may well be racism or veiled racism relating to Lewis Hamilton, I'd be surprised if there wasn't, because it's a sad fact of life.
Only, there hasn't been any on here, not to my knowledge anyway.
There's another angle of the racism debate. That of bunging the threat of racism into the kitty to stifle debate* by accusing/hinting that people are/might be racist...even if they are not.
The end result is a great chunk of society feels they had better not pass comment on someone who is 'different' in case their views are thought to be racist. Which of course is racism, because you're treating someone differently then, because of their creed/colour/race etc.
I don't see it necessarily as closet racism just to criticise Hamilton. It could be of course..but..on the other hand it might not. How would an outside observer know?
* even if it was not intentional
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Since when has calling someone "petulant" or "spoilt & childish" been a racist remark? Hamilton is a high profile public figure and will attract comment on his behaviour, black or white.
Grosjean is dangerous, there - I suppose I can be accused of being Xenophobic as well.
Never seen such ridiculous tripe written, no idea at all what racism is. Or Xenophobia.
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>> Never seen such ridiculous tripe written, no idea at all what racism is. Or Xenophobia.
You've written far worse yourself Zero. And it's simply fatuous to suggest I don't know what racism and xenophobia are.
However: It was asking for trouble to refer to the sort of subtle veiled racism that is quite often unconscious and may not be there at all. We've all seen it, we know it's there, but it's uncomfortable and difficult to deal with. Perhaps life's too short to bother with it.
So no offence chaps.
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Spot on AC. Often there's no way to know whether or not a particular comment is informed by racial or any other kind of bias, but it can be sensed en masse or as a pattern with some individuals (not necessarily here).
There is no such thing as absence of cognitive bias(es) in a human. It's normal, and therefore I couldn't be offended if I was accused of it.
It's how we decide to behave that makes us civilised, or not. Perhaps that's too obvious to bother saying. It should be.
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>> Spot on AC. Often there's no way to know whether or not a particular comment
>> is informed by racial or any other kind of bias,
Of course there is. Racism, is by its very nature highlighting the difference wherever and whenever possible.
HAs anyone here considered that there might not be any bias involved? More likely to be based on an impression of someones actual behaviour for example?
How this got waylaid by the shrill squawking of "RACIST" is beyond me.
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>> Racism, is by its very nature highlighting the difference wherever and whenever possible.
That's total nonsense. The 'difference' is plain for all to see and doesn't need highlighting. Racist comment, as you must know perfectly well, is very often a bit slippery, because intended to be deniable. And it can be unconscious: the person is not aware of the racist content.
It's quite simply beyond belief that you are unaware of these phenomena. A couple of decades back, overtly racist comment and 'jokes' were widely regarded as normal and acceptable in our society. They are less so now, and that is no bad thing. But attitudes don't change overnight on a national scale. There's still a lot of it about and Lewis Hamilton has come in for a good deal of it, compounded no doubt by envy.
If I say that Pastor Maldonado has an unpleasant personality or Narain Karthikeyan is a slow driver, am I being racist in some way? Perhaps just a bit.
However, I wish I hadn't mentioned it. People here may not be racist but they still seem to be in denial over the existence of racism. Which I would remind people is still with us.
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>>People here may not be racist but they still seem to be in denial over the existence of racism
Ahh, that battle cry. If you don't agree with me you're in denial.
An example of how an argument can be twisted by the introduction of unfounded accusations.
And starting it with a vague and generic comment and then defending it with "I didn't name any names" and the like is puerile and unworthy.
I read a report a while ago that suggested that those with too ready and unfounded accusations of act or motivation were responding to an inner and subconcious fear of their own motivation or thoughts.
And nobody denied the existence of racisim, is this another subconcious belief trickling through?
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 7 Sep 12 at 16:16
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>> that battle cry. If you don't agree with me you're in denial.
It's not a battle cry and it's not a battle. Nor is it a question of agreeing or not agreeing. I said that some of the comment on Lewis Hamilton seemed to me to have a racist undertone. I still think that. No one has to agree.
The combative - battling - response from some quarters could be seen as 'protesting too much' by an uncharitable person. I tried to explain gently that racism isn't exclusively a matter of bawling racist insults, and that people are not always aware of the racist stereotyping they use. In Hamilton's case it's the unsupported allegation that he seems jumped-up, arrogant, unstable and undeserving in some way.
He doesn't seem at all like that to me, but what does anyone know about him? Not much really outside the career details. Personally I'm not even curious.
I've already said twice that I shouldn't have said that and it would lead to trouble. Thank you FM2R and Zero for doing your best to make it a real PITA. We all need a short sharp shock sometimes.
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>>Thank you FM2R and Zero for doing your best to make it a real PITA.
Its a calling.
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>> He doesn't seem at all like that to me, but what does anyone know about
>> him? Not much really outside the career details. Personally I'm not even curious.
>>
joesaward.wordpress.com/2012/09/04/a-lot-of-twittering/
"There are many in F1 who feel that perhaps Hamilton lives in a bubble that is today far removed from the real world. If he is going to take on the likes of Fernando Alonso and Sebastian Vettel in a fight for the World Championship, Lewis needs to rely on more than his natural talent. There is no question that he is a great driver, but he needs to be able to relate to the people around him in the garage, and at the factory."
If you read Lewis's Twitter and Instagram pages, it becomes obvious that he mixes in a completely different crowd to the usual well-heeled F1 people, and has a different "class" (made up of all races) of people who follow him. He is not articulate in "F1 speak", but is quite articulate in his "celebrity culture speak". It is the world of Big Brother, Simon Cowell Soap/Rock/Pop Stars, Footballers and WAGS. There is nothing wrong with that, but it does not appeal to the mainstream F1 media and fans.
I think he is a very exciting driver, and am a fan and support him on track; but not his seemingly naive and immature twitter musings - which at times come across as the work of David Icke.
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Well I've sat on my fingers all day but no longer because I don't think I have wifi where I'll be tomorrow.
You have no need to apologise AC, it's your opinion and one you are entitled to have.
Of course you should have said it, that's what forums are for.
I've experienced what you are describing some years ago as a female working in a mans world.
I much preferred someone to come right out with a comment saying that a woman shouldn't be doing the job.
I learned to watch the ones who protested about equality and everything they felt about it.
I know which ones stabbed me in the back....and it didn't have to be turned either.
They thought I was fooled by their apparent acceptance of me, but it was the little things that told the real tale.
There....I feel fully at home now.
Pat
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>> Well I've sat on my fingers all day
Wow, thats not going to do your nail job much good. You'll have to rush off and get them redone.
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Me?..I don't think so:)
I've been gardening all day and I don't wear gloves.
Pat
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>>Of course you should have said it
If that's what he genuinely thinks, then of course.
Hwoever, he then should have had the courage to stand by it rather than hiding behind "I shouldn't have said it", "I didn't name names" all the while throwing yet more ridiculousness over his shoulder.
If you don't agree, he writes you are in denial; if you disagree about the denial, then you are protesting too much. All delivered with snide insinuation, which no doubt he will deny when challenged.
It was a peculiar attempt to introduce a level of controversy into a topic, which he says he has no interest in, probably brought about by a feeling of bitterness over how his italian dictator nonsense thread went.
Simply covering it with long words and flowery prose does not make it anything else.
Puerile, yet annoying.
However, any moment he'll be back outraged, and throwing insinuations and matianing some higher innocence.
Pathetic. And pompous.
And I suspect driven by feelings of increasing irrelevance in an interesting world.
However, its too juvenile and immature for even me to argue with or further discuss.
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>> Simply covering it with long words and flowery prose does not make it anything else.
>> snide insinuation, which no doubt he will deny when challenged.
Where have I heard this crap before? You've been groomed FM2R. Silly ignorant fellows the two of you.
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Groomed? I've been groomed?!?! I didn't even get a dolly mixture!
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>Silly ignorant fellows the two of you.
To be honest AC, you really did set yourself up didn't you?
tinyurl.com/c3f73a7
Joe Public is getting tired of being told that not only are they racist but they're also too stupid to realise it.
Racism still exists of course - but the scatter-gun accusation approach is now tired and counter productive.
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>> you really did set yourself up didn't you?
I'm afraid so, yes. Sod Joe Public though. Jumped-up twit if there ever was one. Deserves everything he gets.
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Hockenheim - Armel Coussine
