I am curious why we have BTP and what if any powers they have which may be different to the usual plod.
The question is triggered by seeing two yellow jacketed and uniformed men emerge from a BTP liveried Ford Focus on the A205 - South Circular Road tonight. It looked like they were booking a chap who's car had overstayed its welcome in a 20 minute bay on the Red Route. I could be wrong of course, they might have followed him from the railway station and asked him for his ticket.
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Might be because they cover the whole railway network in this country as one force rather than being in regional forces like "regular" bobbies.
AFAIK their powers of arrest are the same as other policemen when on railway premises; Wikipedia has this in far better detail.
I'd guess that they'd all need PTS (Personal Trackside Safety) certification as well.
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>>I'd guess that they'd all need PTS (Personal Trackside Safety) certification as well.
I would hope that they would have a bit more than PTS - as they will need to make unilateral decisions about when, where, and how they go onto the infrastructure, I would imagine COSS (controller of site safety) would be more appropriate?
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As far as I remember, the BTP had the same powers as any other officer, whether on rail or dock premises, or not......they do have the Queen's crown on their helmet plates and badges. 30 odd yrs ago we had a very good working relationship with them and they would help at incidents they came across on their travels although they couldn't respond to our calls as they were on a different radio network.
Manchester, in those days, also had market and parks police....identical uniforms to us except the corporation coat of arms as a cap badge. All great guys, especially where a teapot was involved ! I think they only had citizen's powers but they were happy to pitch in to a fight alongside us.
The docks had their own force, with proper helmets, a school chum of mine was a member.
I'm not sure if they were BTP or private.
At that time, the smallest force in the country was the York Minster Police, with about 6 men !
Ted
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I was always a bit concerned about the Atomic Police !
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They were useless at creeping up on a felon in the dark !
Ted
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>> I was always a bit concerned about the Atomic Police !
>>
No German Shepherds though, just Kittens!
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They dont have the same powers as a police constable when off tranport premises. BUt they can act as police at the request of a local normal police commander I think.
The boys to ignore used to be the royal parks police (no longer in existence). One tried to frighten me on his travels between bushey and richmond park and he stopped me using his blue light and marked van.
HIM "you cut me up, you are driving dangerously I am going to recomend you are prosecuted"
ME "naff off you over dressed gardener and go mind the Deer"
Most satisfying
Dont try that with the nuclear police. They are armed, have swot teams, and can act outside of nuclear premises.
"
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This seems to read that the 'Royal Parks Police' are part of the Met.
www.royalparks.org.uk/about/police.cfm
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AAhhhhhh the wondrs of Wikki
As a result of the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001[30] BTP officers can act as police constables outside their normal jurisdiction in the following circumstances:
On the request of constable
If requested by a constable of:
a territorial police force,
the Ministry of Defence Police (MDP), or
the Civil Nuclear Constabulary (CNC)
to assist him in the execution of his duties in relation to a particular incident, investigation or operation, a BTP constable can "take on" the powers of the requesting officer for the purposes of that incident, investigation or operation If a constable from a territorial police force makes the request, then the powers of the BTP constable extend only to the requesting constable's police area. If a constable from the MDP or CNC makes the request, then the powers of the BTP officer are the same as those of the requesting constable.
On the request of a Chief Constable (Mutual Aid)
If requested by the Chief Constable of one of the forces mentioned above, a BTP constable takes on all the powers and privileges of members of the requesting force. This power is used for planned operations, such as the 2005 G8 summit at Gleneagles.
Spontaneous requirement outside natural jurisdiction
A BTP constable can take on the same powers and privileges of a constable of a territorial police force:
in relation to people whom they suspect on reasonable grounds of having committed, being in the course of committing or being about to commit an offence, or
if they believe on reasonable grounds that they need those powers and privileges in order to save life or to prevent or minimise personal injury.
A BTP constable may only use such powers if he believes on reasonable grounds that if he cannot do so until he secures the attendance of or a request from a local constable (as above), the purpose for which he believes it ought to be exercised will be frustrated or seriously prejudiced.
The policing protocol between BTP & Home Office forces set outs the practical use of these extended powers.
"Other than in the circumstances set out under Mutual Aid, British Transport Police officers will not normally seek to exercise extended jurisdiction arrangements to deal with other matters unless they come across an incident requiring police action whilst in the course of their normal duties.
Whenever British Transport Police officers exercise police powers under the Extended Jurisdiction Arrangements the BTP Chief Constable will ensure that the relevant Local Chief Constable is notified as soon as practicable."
—ACPO Policing Protocol between BTP & Home Office Forces, October 2008
dvd
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>> This seems to read that the 'Royal Parks Police' are part of the Met.
>>
>> www.royalparks.org.uk/about/police.cfm
yes they are now, but they wernt in 1983 when my exchange took place.
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Zero - what's a 'swot' team??
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A SWOT team is an expensive team of consultants that come into any situation and decide not to do much until they're paid even more money. Then what they usually suggest is either completely off the wall so you need another team to clear up after them, or so simple any tarby brained half wit could have worked it out at a fraction of the cost. When bored they go and sit on QUANGOs.
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So what do you call members of a Fast Action Response Team?
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...Zero - what's a 'swot' team??...
A bunch of trigger happy Yanks who creep around like crabs, tote unfeasibly large machine guns, and wear one-eyed night vision goggles even in daylight.
That's what they do on my X-box, so it must be right.
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nah, that's a SWAT team. A SWOT team is a bunch of pimply, bespectacled schoolboys. You get set about by them and you don't know your square root from your logarithmic scale. Not something to be wished on anyone.
Oops, stereotypes again.
JH
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>> So what do you call members of a Fast Action Response Team?
>>
Not a breath of fresh air for a start...an unwelcome guest?
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>> Zero - what's a 'swot' team??
Special Weapons OR Tactics presumably. A bit like a cut-price SWAT team, you only get weapons or tactics, but not both ;-)
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Do the Mersey Tunnel Police still exist?
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Wed 5 May 10 at 19:33
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>> Do the Mersey Tunnel Police still exist?
Still recruiting.
tinyurl.com/3836dgv
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Most of the small Police Forces had gone by about 1970.
At college in late 1965, there were recruits from several independent forces, 3 cities, Salford, Liverpool and Manchester. 2 counties, Cheshire and Lancashire and several boroughs, Birkenhead, Wallasey, Bootle, Blackpool, Bolton, Wigan, Oldham, Rochdale and Stockport.
The Manx force used the college and possibly Warrington might have still been independent then. Our instructor was a Sergeant from the Wigan Borough Police.
The borough forces were ill-equipped to deal with major incidents and would call on the City and County forces for help. It was assisting the Stockport boys a couple of years later that I came close to being killed, along with several others, at a major incident.
3 separate forces were involved around 1964/5 in the Moors business. John Kilbride had been taken in Lancashire, at Ashton. The house in Hattersley was in Cheshire and we cadets spent a lot of time searching East Manchester's demolition areas for Keith Bennett and Lesley-Ann Downey until the scenario moved onto the moors at Saddleworth.
But those are all other stories......not for a motoring forum.
Ted
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Ted,
You really need to read the Horse's a*** trilogy.
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Yes Pug, I keep meaning to and i will find time. There's also a book called 'Cobbled Beat' by a Manchester bobby....a bit earlier in time. I have a copy if you want it...
Ted
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>>
>> It was assisting the Stockport boys a couple of
>> years later that I came close to being killed along with several others at a
>> major incident.
Was that the Canadair Argonaut that came down short of Ringway due fuel starvation?
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It was indeed Brompy. Ran out of fuel. Pilot did a brilliant job getting it down in Hopes Carr, in the town centre. The only patch of land before two high rise blocks of flats and the Police headquarters.
We got an ' Emergency standby ' alert. My post was on the Stockport/Manchester border on the A6. I was out on the Velocette I still have.
There's been a book but I haven't read it.
Lots of onlookers blocked the roads and the bikes were useful. The Press called them ' Ghouls ' but wouldn't anybody want to watch what was going on ?
Ted
I always remember it as British Midland or similoar........memory not as good as it was.
Last edited by: silence of the cams on Thu 6 May 10 at 15:22
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>> I always remember it as British Midland or similoar........memory not as good as it was.
>>
British Midland it was - I was a 12/13 at the time, but flew on that plane to France with my parents shortly before that fateful flight...
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Looking at PPRuNE came across this You Tube record of a documentary on the Stockport Aircrash approx 50 years ago.
www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=280&v=Zz94kJRXWqA
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>> Stockport Aircrash approx 50 years ago.
>>
This thread is nearly 50 years old.
What's it all about, Alfie?
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>> This thread is nearly 50 years old.
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>> What's it all about, Alfie?
Ted of this parish was amongst those early on scene approx 50yrs ago when a Canadair Argonaut of British Midland Airways crashed in Stockport - see posts above.
Should have prefixed message @Ted and/or started a new thread.
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Fascinating film - showing how much technology has changed.
Bmtonaut a question for you.
At one point they appeared to determine that the rpm indicators for the no3 & no4 engines had been reversed and said that it had no bearing on the crash. Later on they determined that the final loss of airspeed could have been the incorrect engine shutdown - but did not relate that to the reversed indicators. Was I misinterpreting something?
Over the years, shutting down the incorrect engine seems to be a recurring theme in pilot induced problems.
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>> Bmtonaut a question for you.
>> At one point they appeared to determine that the rpm indicators for the no3 &
>> no4 engines had been reversed and said that it had no bearing on the crash.
>> Later on they determined that the final loss of airspeed could have been the incorrect
>> engine shutdown - but did not relate that to the reversed indicators. Was I misinterpreting
>> something?
I was a bit puzzled by that too but it was getting near bedtime and I'd had a beer or three. Will watch again later and see if it fits second time around.
TBH though I suspect in an aircraft of that era flying on two of four with both failures on one side and one windmilling rather than feathered the only way is down. WW2 bombers probably did it but they could dump their bombs and throw anything else not needed overboard.
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>> I was a bit puzzled by that too but it was getting near bedtime and
>> I'd had a beer or three. Will watch again later and see if it fits
>> second time around.
The investigator describes the cross wiring as a 'red herring'. I think what he is saying is that the wires were crossed at the engines as well; the wiring supposedly for engine #3 was connected to engine #4 and vice versa. Therefore reversing them on the engineers panel caused the rpm needles to behave correctly.
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>> The investigator describes the cross wiring as a 'red herring'.
The full accident report (it was a Public Inquiry rather than an AAIB report in sense we see today) is here:
www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/publication_of_foieir_responses_2#incoming-631125
If you click on 'show all attachments' the report is split into two pdf files covering pages 1-23 and 24-40.
It spends a little time looking at instrumentation issues as there had been previous criticism of multi pointer types and their capacity to be misread particularly if showing erratic readings. As regards cross wiring of the tachometers it seems to suggest this was to defeat a fault that had occurred when the instrument was overhauled.
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OK thanks for that I will try to have a read later.
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livingsafelywithhumanerror.wordpress.com/2016/08/15/shutting-down-the-wrong-engine/
This makes for interesting reading. The Kegworth crash is covered in detail towards the end.
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>> Do the Mersey Tunnel Police still exist?
Did me for speeding once (60mph, bang to rights - it was 3am, mind you). Didnt get penalised, just an old fashioned producer. When I took it into my local Merseyside Police station the desk sergeant said he had never seen one like it before!
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Ted
Traumatic times.
I couldn't even start to believe what horrors you must have met and did all in my powers to prevent my offspring going into your trade (one runs a pub, t'other's in PR). You can't win them all. ;>)
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>> So what do you call members of a Fast Action Response Team?
Very unwelcome in Space Suits
/Billy Connolly.
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BT......I'm sure the BIBs on here will agree that you get hardened to things....not kiddies though.
I couldn't run a pub for the life of me. It was the ambition of a lot of Bobbys on retirement.
There was a hard drinking culture in the 60/70s and I suppose they wanted it to continue.
It led to disaster in a lot of cases.
Ted
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Absolutely right about kids and pubs Ted. The political flavour of policing may change but the core of the work doesn't. The full range of human behaviour and the various ways people live probably won't change - those aspects are the same for me as they were for you, I'm sure. I'm still tickled by 'swot' team - the organised killing of house flies perhaps??
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There are a number of non-regular police forces.
The Cambridge University Constabulary is one of the oldest police forces in the country. The constables are called "bulldogs" and are appointed by the Chancellor and Vice-chancellor.
Other old universities have them too.
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York Minster had it's own force, I think there were six of them. We had the docks police in Manchester and Salford. I friend, who I'm still in touch with, was in the force and they wore a normal police uniform. I think they had police powers on dock property but, of course, murder and similar offence were left to the City forces.
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>> >>
>> >> York Minster had it's own force
>>
>> en.oxforddictionaries.com/usage/its-or-it-s
>>
I see the grammar police are still around :-)
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Knew a guy once who worked for the Parks Police in London. Dis-established and rolled into the BTP or Met I think.
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York Minster had its own force
Did they have a Detective Parson...? (old Monty Python sketch)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=UO0ZjJm-FPk
Still makes me laugh.
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The Grammar Police came to a full stop !
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They were just resting for a period.
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>> They were just resting for a period.
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Back on point duty now.
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..did they depart in a Commer.....
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>> ..did they depart in a Commer.....
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Could well have done in the sixties, a few police forces had them, I still have a corgi model of one in police livery.
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>> ..did they depart in a Commer.....
Yeah they made a dash for it.
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Perhaps they needed a /
Last edited by: Manatee on Wed 11 Apr 18 at 10:34
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My mate's daughter works in the nuclear establishment police. They are permanently quite heavily armed and are trained in a wide range of stuff but, I understand, rarely have a "shout" and I expect much of their day is spent looking underneath cars with a mirror or suchlike.
They can get called out to assist local plod on specific engagements if they are stretched, and he told me that they were once called out to a "domestic" but decided to stay outside until local plod arrived rather than going in looking like Robocop which they thought might inflame the situation.
She was trained in bio-hazards and I understand can be sent anywhere to assist. ISTR as a result she was based in London during the Olympics.
During one of the recent terrorist events when they flooded the country with police she was assigned to London. Another in her force was assigned to somewhere like Peterborough, where although there was little perceived risk, the local Chief Constable simply wanted to take advantage of some free extra feet on the street to relieve his overtime bill (so the story went)...
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The ones at Wylfa on Anglesey certainly did that - Spoke to a guy at an Art event who served with them - said they regularly went to events that the local Police were struggling to deal with for various reasons. There was a limit, mileage wise, as to where they would go. He was an ex-Home Office Police Officer - great post retirement job he said.
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Kew Constabulary sounds quite nice.
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Maybe we should have a special arm of the police designated to keep the peace around tacky roadside memorials?
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Special Plantations Group (SPG) ?
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British Transport Police ? - Harleyman
