A lady I know was stopped 2 days ago by a police van whilst speeding. The officer asked her if she knew what speed she was doing. She politely told him that she did not, but acknowledged she was speeding. He told her she was doing 47 in a 30.She said ok, I was speeding, but in fact this is a 40 zone, which does not alter the fact that I am still guilty. At this point he asked her to move away from the vehicle and cautioned her.
Now we locals know it is a 40 limit. Very clearly marked with a 30 at one side and NSL the other. The paperwork she was given indicates that she was speeding in a 30. She was told to produce her licence at a police station within 7 days. She has now been 3 times to our local station, but has discovered it is only open 'by appointment' despite the fact that police are present inside!Here in rural N Yorks the next nearest police staion is a 90 minute round trip away.
She is understandably annoyed.
I ask forum members what would you do?
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What's the chances of a Police van having a calibrated speedometer that day?
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Do what I am currently doing. Write to the chief constable and point out the errors of their ways. (Politely).
MD
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>> Do what I am currently doing. Write to the chief constable and point out the
>> errors of their ways. (Politely).
Indeed, on the face of it it sounds like the polis could get embarrassed in court.
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The police van was parked in a field gate entrance, with a radar gun. She should have spotted it. No excuses, but the fact that the police insisted it was a 30 limit when it was a 40 still rankles with her, as does the caution.
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Why ask her to produce her documents ? All the information would have been available via PNC
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Quite. just what we said.
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>> Why ask her to produce her documents ? All the information would have been available
>> via PNC
>> .
>>
C'est la vie. You get some coppers with a bad attitude - they don't like being told they got some basic fact wrong and so will make life difficult for you.
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>> Why ask her to produce her documents ? All the information would have been available via PNC
I asked the same question when I reported a motoring offence at the police station last year when I found the person who ran into my car wasn't actually driving, but their passenger was (info obtained from nearby CCTV).
Although the accident was not my fault, I was still asked to produce my documents. When I asked why as the info is available electronically now, I was told it's still standard practice is to request the paper documents as well. i.e. I was given a 7 day wonder (producer).
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If she was caught with a hairdryer, she's got little defence here, especially as she admitted speeding.
The 30 instead of 40 needs to be pointed out to the CC - perhaps with ACPO guidelines she may just squeeze out of being given 3pts and 60 quid.
Doubt it tho.
47 in a 30 risks 4 or 5 points possibly so I wouldn't accept the charge as it stands.
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>> I wouldn't accept the charge as it stands. >>
Caution is not a charge, or is it?
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>> The police van was parked in a field gate entrance, with a radar gun.
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I love the way this isn't mentioned in the original post!
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>> The police van was parked in a field gate entrance, with a radar gun. She
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Can you post a streetview link to the location, please?
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>> Do what I am currently doing. >>
>> MD
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Can you indicate how that is progressing: well, slowly, very slowly, ... ?
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>> Now we locals know it is a 40 limit. Very clearly marked with a 30 at one side and NSL the other.
Surely you mean marked as a 40?
I know someone who got stopped doing 47 in a 30 zone. Police asked similar questions and he replied he thought it was a 40... i.e. admitting he was doing 47 which was speeding if it was a 40 let alone a 30mph zone :-)
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yes, it is very clearly marked as a 40. how the officer got that wrong goodness knows.
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If they've issued an incorrect summons or NIP, steady pressure will get the lady off legacyclad. She didn't run over anyone or frighten any wildlife did she?
She's got them bang to rights, and their superiors will know it. Nor does she need to harp on about knowing she was speeding. That would constitute a straw for them to clutch at, carphounds.
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...She's got them bang to rights...
Unfortunately not.
If this matter goes to court, the 30/40mph error in the paperwork will be corrected under the slippage rules - it's an obvious slip-up.
Same thing happens with wrong reg numbers, wrong locations, incorrect road numbers, road names and the like.
If a Notice of Intended Prosecution arrives, best to write back accepting her speed, but pointing out, politelty, the error of the limit.
It's well within speed awareness course territory, but that offer is discretionary, hence 'politely' above.
Trying to be clever will only reduce the chances of an offer being made, and magistrates cannot offer courses, which is another reason to keep this out of court.
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>> >> Do what I am currently doing. >>
>> >> MD
>> >>
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>> Can you indicate how that is progressing: well, slowly, very slowly, ... ?
>>
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All is fine. I will report in the fullness of time.
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>> All is fine. I will report in the fullness of time.
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Thank you.
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>> She was told to produce her licence at a police
>> station within 7 days. She has now been 3 times to our local station, but
>> has discovered it is only open 'by appointment' despite the fact that police are present
>> inside!
There are doctors and dentists etc in at our local surgery but we still have to make an appointment. Why should her police station be any different?
>> She is understandably annoyed.
Her annoyance isn't understandable to me. She's expecting the police station to give her special treatment.
>> I ask forum members what would you do?
Make an appointment.
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>> Very clearly marked with a 30
>> at one side and NSL the other.
Perhaps he used to laser to check her speed while she was still with the 30? They can be used at up to 1Km.
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Is this another new fact energing? Was it actually 30 - 40 - NSL and he was waiting at the 30/40 sign to catch people speeding up prematurely?
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The police didn't know it was a 40mph limit.They should should they? Its all about the money.
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>> She was told to produce her licence at a police station within 7 days. She has now been 3 times to our local station, but has discovered it is only open 'by appointment'
Can she not fax it to them ;)
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>> been 3 times to our local station, but has discovered it is only open 'by appointment'
'Hello, filth central? I'd like to book an urgent appointment for my local nick to be opened. Got a citizen's arrest of a mugger/pickpocket/car thief/child molester (strike out categories that do not apply) here, he's struggling and swearing and we've quietened him down with a bit of piano wire round his neck, but he's gone blue and doesn't seem too clever... Hello? Hello?'
Tchah!
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A couple of decades ago, I and a couple of others apprehended some yobbos sniffing around our office building (wallets and other stuff had disappeared recently).
We managed to detain one of them (they were young and more sprightly than us) and held it in a room while we called the BIB.
We were told someone would be with us in about five hours!
We were aware of us being regarded as the criminals, so held (loud) whispered conversations about tying it to the boiler and if would cause third degree burns and giving it a damn good thrashing while 'accidentally' leaving an escape route open.
I've never seen someone move so fast!
We never had any more problems in that building.
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You say 'cautioned, was she Cautioned ie "You do not have to say anything etc etc" or was she cautioned as in "Dont do it again."?? Was she reported for Speeding and issued a HO/RT1 producer? They do have a little box for the speed. Was she reported and given a verbal NIP ie "You will be reported for consideration of the question of prosecuting you ....etc etc.
Was she issued a Fixed Penalty Notice/combined HO/RT1 for speeding and required to surrender her licence at a PS?
Too many ambiguities before you even start arguing over whether it was a 30 or 40 limit. Might all be a storm in a T cup.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Sat 23 Jun 12 at 23:41
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I got a verbal NIP 20-odd years ago.
Never came to anything although I did have to produce my documents to a station.
Doubt it was ever going to fly when they PC told me I was doing "48 to 50 mph" up Leith Walk.
"Where's your calibration certificate officer?"
"Just blow into the bag sir"
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>> A couple of decades ago, I and a couple of others apprehended some yobbos sniffing
>> around our office building (wallets and other stuff had disappeared recently).
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>> We managed to detain one of them (they were young and more sprightly than us)
>> and held it in a room while we called the BIB.
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>> We were told someone would be with us in about five hours!
>>
I did the same thing at work some years ago (maybe 10) and so many police officers turned up it became ridiculous.
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AAH - ten years ago when we had a police force, not a police service and enough employed to make it work. NOT sniping at police persons on this forum BTW. We all know they are being asked to do too much with too little
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Need to go back further than that Meldrew. I would say the mid '80s. PACE brought about one of the biggest changes in policing culture. The 1981 riots highlighted a number of issues.
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Thanks Fullchat. I shouldn't have stuck my neck out by quoting a number of years!
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Lygonos - absolutely no requirement in law whatsoever for the officer to produce a certificate of calibration. Your speed (unverified) could be sufficient to require a breath test.
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It was the Scarman inquiry after the Brixton riots that was a catalyst for a softer approach to some policing methods.
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Why do people incriminate themselves with loose tongues and then moan about it?
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Cautioned for speeding - Lygonos
