Just wondering whether Carlo Ghosn (however you pronounce that) has made a mistake into pouring billions of Reggie and Nissan's budget into electric cars. While I can see he point of hybrds (at least around town where a Prius is actually quite good: economy plummets on a motorway run though); a plug in lekky car will not have the range or the performance to satisfy most drivers. Who therefore will buy the Nissan Leaf and its Renault counterpart over a decent Diesel or small petrol then?
I want to like electric (lots of low down torque) but I don't think this guy has thought it through. He can't be a complete idiot as has allowed the Renault Motorsport division to flourish building almost hand built performance cars for very reasonable prices but this....As Andrew English said in the Daily Telegraph a few weeks ago,he is not convinced yet: ARE YOU?
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>>Electric Cars: will they take off soon?
Blimey, that'd be a development and a half... :-)
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>>Electric Cars: will they take off soon?
Sorry to follow you on the joke trail but I was thinking only if they make much lighter batteries.
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>> Sorry to follow you on the joke trail but I was thinking only if they
>> make much lighter batteries.
It's alright for you too, but I only just noticed this thread, and so would be two days late with the joke...I don't think I'll bother :(
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well im a week behind on the joke trail but the headline still makes me think of flying electric cars
and
remember how dangerousk they would be because you wouldnt hear them would you
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Id imagine its a chicken and egg situation.
If there are more park and charge places then there is likely to be more demand for electric cars.
Also convenience factor could come in to play as well.
If people forget to charge the car overnight then they won't be going to work the next day.
Vauxhall's ampera has more chance at succeeding but this is a hybrid car and not purely electric.
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pure electric cars have no chance of making it. The range is too short and the charging is too long.
hybrid or alternate fuels are the way forward. My money is still on the hydrogen fuel cell.
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I can't many electric cars being much use to anyone for the next few years.Reading Top gear magazine they have a little electric car (can't remember which one) on test and they're getting stupidly low ranges on it driving in and out of town.
What I would consider for my next car though (and it has surprised me) is a Prius. Its an automatic that isn't diesel and will get 45mpg with low or zero tax. Perfect for my motorway/city combination commute.
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or compressed air cars.
MDI in France is investigating this.
Re pressurise in 4 minutes !
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>> a plug in lekky car will not have the range or the performance to satisfy most drivers.
The range is there, with swappable batteries. The performance is certainly there. However, cost is a major factor. Once a satisfactory method of electricity storage is developed, that will be that, and (currently) conventionally powered engines will be obsolete.
>> As Andrew English said in the Daily Telegraph a few weeks ago he is
>> not convinced yet: ARE YOU?
It's only a matter of time - hopefully not too long now.
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Boom boom guys and i'm not convinced yet: small capacity forced induction petrols for now with DI. Diesels slowly becoming less popular.
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>> >> Boom boom guys
>>
>> What??
What the great Basil Brush used to say after cracking jokes. You must have had a sheltered childhood :)
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>> It's only a matter of time - hopefully not too long now.
yes indeed its only been 210 years since the battery was invented.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 28 Apr 10 at 13:57
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>> >> It's only a matter of time - hopefully not too long now.
>> yes indeed its only been 210 years since the battery was invented.
That's not a very useful indicator - after all, it was about 5,500 years ago that the wheel was invented, but only about 300 years since we've had "cars", and only for about 125 years that we've had cars with internal combustion engines.
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>>>5,500 years ago that the wheel was invented.
And then they spent ages looking at it and wondering what the hell to do with it.
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so batteries were around for 85 years before internal combustion engines and STILL never made it mainstream?
the problem with batteries is charging. Swopping is impractical, no filing station can store 10,000 palet size battery trays.
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>> Swopping is impractical no filing station can store 10 000 palet size battery trays.
Why is "swapping" impractical?
Where does your 10,000 battery figure come from?
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>> Where does your 10 000 battery figure come from?
>>
you get 10,000 drivers a week calling into your "filling" station?
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OK, 10,000 a week. 1500 a day, say. 60 minutes to charge a battery. 1 charged battery every minute. Allow some sort of buffer quantity. Not beyond the bounds of possibility.
Note, the 10,000 fuelling stops per week at a conventional garage would be reduced by a rather large number - 75%? - batteries will not always be swapped, often they'll be charged at home overnight.
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I can't really see salesmen in suites struggling with swapping heavy batteries at a 'filling station' rather than inserting a nozzle and then ogling the blond at the next pump.
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>> I can't really see salesmen in suites struggling with swapping heavy batteries
You don't fill your car from a bucket using a funnel, do you. There'll be some easy plug-in/remove mechanism.
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>> You don't fill your car from a bucket using a funnel do you. There'll be
>> some easy plug-in/remove mechanism.
>>
A lancing Linde forklift perhaps?
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From what I can make out, the Nissan-Renault system will be automated, and loaded from below. No, I do not know the exact details.
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But where is the electricity going to come from when we run out 'cos no one's building power stations - just closing 'em? And don't look at that excuse for a sandcastle windmill on the roof of your house :-)
JH
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>> But where is the electricity going to come from when we run out
Or the oil...
>> 'cos no one's building power stations - just closing 'em?
They'd better flippin' well start doing so, then! Great big ones, 'cos I want an electric car with "yobbo mode"!
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get out of it, you want 150bhp+ 50mpg+ and no maintenence bills for 5 grand now and you cant afford it, there is no way you can afford a yobbo mode chevvy volt.
you think the dmf is expensive at 100k? wait till you get the eye wattering battery bill.
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Indeed so can see the logic of Hybrids as said but not plug in all out electric cars. This country is dithering of nuclear power stations anyway so not even a really efficient option. Will be a leftfield choice for the rocket eating islingtonites for a while yet like the hateful G Whiz.
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>> This country is dithering of nuclear power stations anyway
I know, isn't it awful.
>> so not even a really efficient option.
I wonder whether conventionally-produced electricity would be a more efficient use of fossil fuels that direct use in transport. It's possible, but I'm unaware of the figures, so it also may not be.
>> the hateful G Whiz.
Not my cup of tea, but it must make sense to some.
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>> there is no way you can afford a yobbo mode chevvy volt.
True enough, perhaps I'll be able to buy a second-hand bargain in 20 years' time.
However, that's rather an aside from the point that it's all progressing wall, and will be possible soonish.
>> you think the dmf is expensive at 100k? wait till you get the eye wattering
>> battery bill.
The Nissan/Renault initiative does, I think, incorporate the idea of battery leasing.
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I don’t understand why we are going down this electric route, when we have to mine for the materials for batteries, and the electric comes from dirty great power stations all for cars with very little range for long charging times
Why isn’t investment ploughed into a alternative to petrol/diesel – we have synthetic oil why not petrol?
Or even if it’s a different chemical like Hydrogen or Ethanol or another alternative that would require similar filling from a pump like petrol and diesel.
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R, it's not as though all investment and research is going into one solution. Fuel cells for instance. But I think they're out of favour. Think high pressure hydrogen. Any synthetic has to be economic to produce and need less energy to produce than it provides.
Think of it as an opportunity. The first million is the hardest I understand.
JH
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I'm sure people thought that changing horses was a daft idea - what salesman in a suit would swap horses mid journey.
And when he got used to it, what salesman in a suit would ride a filthy train.
Or have to drive HIMSELF in a CAR!!!
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>> I don’t understand why we are going down this electric route
Global legislation in environmental issues.
>> when we have to mine for the materials for batteries and the electric comes from
>> dirty great power stations
We have to "mine" for steel for cars. Hopefully green power such as nuclear will deal with the generation issue.
>> all for cars with very little range for long charging times
It's a developing area - I wouldn't mind an overnight charge with the possibility of switching batteries on longer journeys. The "daily short range" is suitable for the majority in any case, who wouldn't need to go to the "filling station".
>> Why isn’t investment ploughed into a alternative to petrol/diesel – we have synthetic
>> oil why not petrol?
It would have to come from somewhere (mineral oil); it burns, producing emissions.
>> Or even if it’s a different chemical like Hydrogen
Hydrogen fuel cells are probably a dead end, from the point of view of efficiency, not to mention storage.
>> or Ethanol or another alternative
It's got to come from somewhere, and how much can be "grown"?
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Electric cars depend on battery technology. It needs to be 10 times more efficient to be economic.
97% of the rare earths needed for new battery technology are only mined in China..
Anyone see a problem with the above?
Not the Greens of course, they think a rare earth is used to grow beefsteak tomatoes...
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Just caught the 60 second news on BBC3 at 8pm - there was mention of a new fleet of taxis in Tokyo using swappable batteries. Couldn't find it on BBC website, but:
industry.bnet.com/auto/10004727/better-place-swaps-taxi-batteries-in-tokyo/
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There is a place for electric vehicles that are based at a depot. Delivery vans, rubbish trucks, post office vans, even short route buses.
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>> There is a place for electric vehicles that are based at a depot. Delivery vans
>> rubbish trucks post office vans even short route buses.
>>
Or keep them plugged in, trolley bus system?
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Still a power station on the end of the wire though.
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>> 97% of the rare earths needed for new battery technology are only mined in China.
Which ones are those, then?
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I read somewhere about the Prius though taking much more energy and thus CO2 t build and also that it's batteries contained a rare metal that is controversially mined in Canada.
Also what people are missing is the huge headache and cost and pollution of used and discarded batteries.
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According to JC
The chemicals for the batteries are mined in canada, then shipped to Japan to be assembled - the batteries themselves are then shipped elsewhere to be put into the cars, then the cars themselves are then shipped to their destinations
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>> According to JC
JC?
>> The chemicals for the batteries are mined in canada then shipped to Japan to be
>> assembled - the batteries themselves are then shipped elsewhere to be put into the cars
>> then the cars themselves are then shipped to their destinations
bit.ly/9C15xj
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>> I read somewhere about the Prius though taking much more energy and thus CO2 t
>> build
Than what? It's a machine on the road similar to many other machines. The build cost in terms of CO2/unit should be similar.
>> and also that it's batteries contained a rare metal that is controversially mined in
>> Canada.
There are many large sources for these "rare metals". I don't know of any controversy (apart from the normal) over mining, a pointer would be of interest.
>> Also what people are missing is the huge headache and cost and pollution of used
>> and discarded batteries.
This is very unlikely to be the case, since they are valuable items for "recycling".
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Just read Colin Goodwin's test of an electric Mitsubishi in Autocar and shows just what a mountain manufacturers have to climb before electric can hope to match the utility of internal combustion.
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You could also read Andrew Frankel's report on that Nissan Leaf, which he seems to quite like.
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Just read Colin Goodwin's test of an electric Mitsubishi in Autocar and shows just what a mountain manufacturers have to climb before electric can hope to please Colin Goodwin.
There. Fixed that for you.
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Well............I think I might well consider an electric car as a second car. We live in London and (unfortunately) I am chief mechanic, MoT getter, service adviser, best price tyres and insurance finder for five cars now. Naturally one is my full time 15,000 mile a year estate which travels around the UK and down to SW France a lot and couldn't possible be an electric one with current technology.
The other four cars do maybe 2,000 - 5,000 miles a year each and I've been mentally logging the daily journey lengths. Typically they are less than 20 miles per car with the very occasional, maybe once a year long haul return of a huge 60 / 70 miles.
These four could all be electric and save me a lot of hassle into the bargain. I'm already half planning for the array of solar panels and control gear I need to charge them up without the need for mains.
Will it happen big time ? If you ask me, in places like London...yes.
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...If you ask me, in places like London...yes...
Could well be - I daresay the idea of an electric railway seemed fanciful at the time.
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Rare earths...
www.nytimes.com/2009/09/01/business/global/01minerals.html?_r=1
HONG KONG — China is set to tighten its hammerlock on the market for some of the world’s most obscure but valuable minerals.
Yuriko Nakao/Reuters
Toyota’s Prius hybrids use several pounds of neodymium, a rare earth, in their electric motors.
China currently accounts for 93 percent of production of so-called rare earth elements — and more than 99 percent of the output for two of these elements, dysprosium and terbium, vital for a wide range of green energy technologies and military applications like missiles
etc etc etc
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>> Rare earths...
>> China currently accounts for 93 percent of production of so-called rare earth
>> elements — and more than 99 percent of the output for two of these elements
>> dysprosium and terbium vital for a wide range of green energy technologies
>> and military applications like missiles
Yup. Note these are production figures. It isn't being produced elsewhere because it's a latecomer in terms of our need. There'll be enough around in short order.
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Can't stand the term "green" either as it's trite and meaningless. All for high efficiency though but thinking of small turbo petrols and Diesels and hybrids rather than plug ins which are only fit for urban environments. Do you think I could take a Leaf on a cross continent run to Florence or Vienna: no.
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>> Do you think I could take a Leaf on a cross continent run to Florence or Vienna: no.
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/click_online/8652210.stm
"Spencer Kelly takes a test drive of Nissan's prototype vehicle, called Leaf, that is due to go into production in December 2010.
It is expected to become the first globally-produced electric car, and it can be recharged from a domestic power supply. "
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100 mile range and probably much less if you drive the car hard. It's like the Mitsubshi afrmentioned which had to be delivered to Autocar on a low loader. Proves my point about the range and lackof convenience: doesn't interest me at all.
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Think this article sums up the current (sic) state nicely:
www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/249144/
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Tis the article I refer to!
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This Mazda is a petrol/hydrogen hybrid with a 390 mile range via an internal combustion engine ~ www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6343414/
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Interesting though I read that Mazda have killed of the RX8 in Europe and have no plans to replace it due to emissions leg. I think the rotary, due to it being extremely ineffcent, has sadly had its day.
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Electric Cars: will they take off soon? - Badwolf
