The clutch on our Cruiser is on its way out having progressed from a discreet occasional judder on first engagement to a scraping noise, with the bite point moving rapidly towards the floor. A bit early given that its former owner is a good driver and so are we, at under 90,000 miles. We are still having to do a lot of nipper-fielding over a 20-30 mile radius for our freelance-working middle daughter, whose husband is in Europe working on a movie. I don't want herself (or me come to that) to get stranded in the middle of nowhere unable to engage first gear with the engine running, so the Chrysler is parked waiting to go to the garage tomorrow. To my relief, it doesn't have a dual-mass flywheel as far as I can tell.
A hire car is cheaper than paying someone else to do this running about, and herself hired this funny little motor in Worthing, a Chevrolet Spark. It has the proportions and demeanour of a pug-dog: broad imposing snout trailing away to hunched, flat, vertical hindquarters, unfortunately lacking the curly tail. 1.2 engine absolutely silent at idle and from outside the car at all times, but inside it soon starts to hum a bit in a smooth sort of way. The boot is very small.
The thing is totally user friendly, the engine zippy and acceleration at low speeds very good. It's also quite cheap to hire although we will see how cheap it really works out when the time comes to pay. The inside is pleasant in various shades of grey with some garish glittery kingfisher-blue trim panels which I rather like. So working-class darlings!
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That's bad luck AC. Have you managed to get any quotes for the fixing of your car yet? The wee renter looks a hoot !
Speaking of funny little cars, I was idly browsing last night as a result of a probably stupid notion. The latest hare-brained idea I've had is to park a small, inexpensive car in central London ( I do have somewhere to do that ) to use when I'm in town. Theory being I can get the train in and use the little bug to get about.
Been looking at 5 year old-ish Pandas with lots of miles. Cheap enough things they are.
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Good idea. Won't be needing winter tyres ! How's it work with the congestion charge ?
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MOTOR BIKE/SCOOTER
Last edited by: R.P. on Tue 1 May 12 at 15:19
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Aye, that's a thought. I've got a Timberland Parka somewhere...
:-)
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Design has moved on a bit - even BMW make one now.
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>> Been looking at 5 year old-ish Pandas with lots of miles. Cheap enough things they are.
That's a sensible plan Humph if you have a free parker in London. You don't want a bike or motor bike or scooter. You'll get wet and killed and someone is sure to steal it. Ideally you would get a Panda Twin Air which is CC exempt. Of course so is your secret love the Prius, or a Lexus Hybrid, or indeed a late model Bristol or Grand Cherokee with an LPG conversion...
That's what I'd get if I had Lud's money.
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get wet and killed and someone is sure to steal it.
In that order ?
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First off, sorry, I seem to have, temporarily at least, nicked your thread !
Con charge is a consideration but I'm paying that anyway when I take my own car in so that element remains status quo. The thought, which is all it really is at present, is to obtain something reasonably reliably useable for the least outlay and indeed respecting your point about it potentially being nicked etc. Wouldn't choose anything too visible/desirable to those who have a habit of making off with things.
Almost certainly this week's daft and soon to be rejected notion.
I could though see a Harley type thing being no use at all but nonetheless attractive...
As you were everyone, now how about AC's clutch?!
:-)
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...now how about AC's clutch?
...and the way the biting point is moving downward as it wears out? Don't know - I've never been lead-booted enough to wear out a clutch - but is that what usually happens?
If I had Lud's money I'd probably buy an automatic.
};---)
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>> I've never been lead-booted enough to wear out a clutch - but is that what usually happens?
Some clutches do that and others don't. What one would expect intuitively is something like the other way round, with the bite point moving upwards and eventual terminal clutch slip. But some behave as the Cruiser's is behaving. Don't ask me why because as I say it seems counter-intuitive. Perhaps something to do with the friction plate warping or becoming tattered in some way.
I've repaired a lot of clutches in my time, once (in a Lada) in the gutter round the corner from my last gaff in the Grove. It would half kill me to do it on a front-drive car now, especially outside here lying in the mud under the motor propped on a tree stump and a tottering pile of bricks, and perhaps having to undo drive shafts, a/c pipes and so on.
Dunno what it's going to cost. A bit less than one fears but a lot more than one wants to pay, judging by recent performance.
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"Dunno what it's going to cost. A bit less than one fears but a lot more than one wants to pay, judging by recent performance."
About £400-£500 I'd say
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>> ...and the way the biting point is moving downward as it wears out? Don't know
>> - I've never been lead-booted enough to wear out a clutch - but is that
>> what usually happens?
I'd have expected it to move upwards until the clutch was slipping which used to happen.
The Berlingo's clutch has got gradually heavier but still bit OK. Put it down to wear and rust/muck in cable which on RHD versions is long and circuitously routed.
On Saturday we were bound for family friends in Wrexham. While the lad was driving along the A5 near Shrewsbury I advised him to drop a gear, he moved his foot and then said 'there's no (f-bomb) clutch'. He managed well to dump it into a layby where, indeed the clutch pedal lay dead and lifeless on the floor. After 106k miles it's the first time the car has failed in any way sufficient to immobilise it.
Car and I were evacuated home while SWMBO and lad were collected by our intended hosts.
Having refeshed myself I tried again in Xantia and completed the journey.
Lingo was towed to my CIt indy yesterday who diagnosed clutch failure and prescribed new set and cable. Eight hours to fit as part of dash needs to come out.
Is heavier pedal followed by complete failure the new sign of clutch wear out?
I retraced my steps again
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 1 May 12 at 16:32
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>>
>> The Berlingo's clutch has got gradually heavier but still bit OK. Put it down to
>> wear and rust/muck in cable which on RHD versions is long and circuitously routed.
>>
A common failing on cars originally deigned as lhd, especially Frnch ones. The only cars I've had clutch cables go on we're a Renault 18, and my old BX GTi. Both had done in excess of 100,000 miles, but the R18 had form on others we had, so a spare cable was kept in the boot.
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>> a probably stupid notion. The latest hare-brained idea I've had is to park a small,
>> inexpensive car in central London ( I do have somewhere to do that ) to
>> use when I'm in town. Theory being I can get the train in and use
>> the little bug to get about.
Getting about in london, in a car, is pointless.
Buy a flat, and use public transport. The flat then becomes a pension fund contributer when you pack up work.
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>> Buy a flat, and use public transport. The flat then becomes a pension fund contributer when you pack up work.
That's a sensible idea too. But car money and flat money are two different orders of magnitude, unless you are talking Veyron and Merseyside.
Getting around London by car is nearly always a good idea and perfectly sensible though. Daytime parking can be dear and there are certain journeys that should be avoided at certain times of day. But for most of the 24 hours journey speeds will be equivalent or better than public transport ones, and you can pick your nose, scratch your gonads and smoke stogies to your heart's content without the risk of upsetting the hoi polloi.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Tue 1 May 12 at 17:45
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HJ sez:
"Enjoyable and easy to drive. Easy to get in and out of. Peppy, chain cam engines. Good rear space.
Best ride quality of any car its size"
www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/chevrolet/spark-2010/
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Nippy little town runabout indeed. I wouldn't want to be in a smash in one though, nor drive at 50mph in a crosswind.
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Humph:
Have you thought about signing up for one of Zipcar, Whipcar, Citycar etc?
Not just thinking about it from a cost point of view but also from an angle of easier set-up for you and less hassle re breakdowns, maintenance, flat batteries and so on.
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From other things you've written here, Humph, I got the impression that you had to drive into, and in, London because you were carrying a boatload of shiny shoes and even shinier suits. This London runabout idea doesn't seem to fit with that.
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Old men don't survive long in the fashion game, if was him I would be buying a white van to do the markets.....
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I remember scrapping a Fiesta because a new clutch would cost me £150!! To be fair I scrapped it because the £150 clutch was on top of the rotting chassis. It had a great engine that car but as a new driver I decided I didn't want to be driving round in an death trap.
I found with my clutch it would just keep slipping a lot, e.g the engine would rev but the car wouldn't move.
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Much less need for such activities these days WDB. Occasionally still do of course, but life has moved on a bit in relatively recent times. Sort of gone from monkey's assistant to chief monkey and finally to organ grinder in fairly short order.
Nature of the game. Still keep a banana or two to hand just in case...
Now, AC's clutch?
:-)
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I see. Well, consider my cap duly doffed and my forelock thoroughly tugged.
}:---)
I'd have thought you'd get a lot of taxi rides for the cost of keeping, running and parking a car in London.
Last edited by: WillDeBeest on Tue 1 May 12 at 21:28
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Forelock? Seem to recall that's something you no longer affect?
:-)
Yes of course you're right. It is already seeming like a bit of a daft idea. Boris bikes are the real answer.
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>> Boris bikes are the real answer.
Or a Brompton ;-)
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He has an image to uphold, wouldn't want him the laughing stock of the office
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Humph, If you still need to carry a few boxes you could always get a bike like this.
www.wired.com/images_blogs/gadgetlab/610x.jpg
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If you have somewhere to park it, is there a power supply handy?
No (or very low) fuel costs and no congestion charges for something electric. If you can ensure you'll never be seen by anyone you know, one of those "Sinclair C5 on steroids" Renault things would do the trick.
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a Chevrolet Spark.
1.2 engine absolutely silent at idle and from outside the
>> car at all times, but inside it soon starts to hum a bit in a
>> smooth sort of way. The boot is very small.
>>
>> The thing is totally user friendly, the engine zippy and acceleration at low speeds very
>> good. It's also quite cheap to hire although we will see how cheap it really
>> works out when the time comes to pay. The inside is pleasant in various shades
>> of grey with some garish glittery kingfisher-blue trim panels which I rather like. So working-class
>> darlings!
>>
We had one for a few days recently; a British Gas van had hit the i10 up the rear on the way back from Market Harborough in March, and to their credit they very rapidly got it sorted and provided a hire car whilst ours was being fixed.
Quite liked the styling, inside and out, seats were very comfortable; controls idiosyncratic in a Citroeny sort of way. Engine though seemed gutless and rough compared to the i10, and not quite as nice to drive.
Overall not a bad little motor; I'd be interested to see if a bigger-engined version was better.
Last edited by: Harleyman on Tue 1 May 12 at 23:04
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>> Engine though seemed gutless and rough compared to the i10, and not quite as nice to drive.
The engine in our one is not exactly gutsy, but zippy, and it's very far from rough. But there's a 1 litre version according to the net which is a bit slower. Perhaps that seems rough.
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Zipcar/Streetcar etc. are *eyewateringly* expensive IMO. You pay for the additional convenience. Astonished that public transport isn't a better option.
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The horror! The horror!
Clutch would hardly be £300. Everything fairly easily accessible from underneath. But: one of the gearchange cables is disintegrating at the gearbox end. The cables are only obtainable from Chrysler as a set. They cost considerably more than the clutch kit. And there's extra labour of course.
The garage is quite good at quoting a worst-case price so that the one you end up paying doesn't seem as bad as you feared. Let's hope it's like that this time. Because the worst-case price would buy a respectable high-mileage Panda.
Moan...
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>> The horror! The horror!
>>
>> Moan...
>>
Isn't car ownership just wonderful.:-))
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A friend had a very unreliable Chrysler voyager - I recall that every time something went wrong the bills were eye watering as the parts always appeared very expensive, and everything appeared to be difficult to do.
They bought it at a year old - 19K IIRC and 5 years later when they parted company the repair bills were equal to the purchase price
I know you shouldn't tar all with the same brush, but it has rather put me off the brand
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OFFS.
Got it back. It feels funny now the gearchange is back to its notchy self, and the clutch is doing what I hope it's supposed to be doing, touch wood and so on.
Guess what it cost. Go on, just guess. I'm not going to tell you. I may have another heart attack if I do.
Clue for accountants: the VAT was £129.60.
Holy whassername Batman!
But we've had it four years, we paid nothing for it, it's fairly nice and it hasn't cost a fortune so far.
But honestly...
PS: The hire car has to go home tomorrow. I haven't even learned to drive it properly yet although progress has been made. Heigh ho.... its wheels are embarrassingly small I notice.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Fri 4 May 12 at 23:42
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777.60 then. Better than 666 in some ways.
Actually not an outrageous amount. But if that was my wife's car it might be.... it's in excellent condition for 11 years old and very low miles (it can go a week without any use in the summer due to using a bike)... but pretty worthless.
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>> 777.60 then. Better than 666 in some ways.
>>
Very close to the 740 for the same surgery on the 'lingo then. Had to go back 'cos it was leaking gear oil. Garage owned up promptly to damaging a seal and rectified foc.
Feels like a new car. Funny how you get used to a clutch that gets heavier and heavier over time.
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The new clutch assembly came complete, all three plates and the diaphragm inside a casing riveted to a 'drive plate', the whole thing to be bolted to the flywheel with long bolts. The garage man thought it a bizarre design and so did I although no skill or intelligence would be needed to replace it, unlike a normal simple clutch which has to be centred as it if bolted together.
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Inspired by your thread, I started idly looking at PT Cruisers on AT. Crickey but they're cheap now ! It struck me that if someone wanted a decent sized family car come weekday van with a huge boot for not much money...
Even the diesels, which I seem to remember have a Merc engine, are very reasonably priced.
Just goes to show that looks do so matter. If you can live with those it seems a real bargain.
Could I live with the appearance? At those prices, you bet I could !
Take it the car is fixed now AC? Not too wallet damaging I hope !?
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I had one as a rental in the US in 08 - six cylinder version - it was a good car...
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Well, for example, there's a burgundy red petrol one advertised at the moment, 2004 model, 62,000 miles for £995. Might be a bit odd looking but you know. Strikes me as something Ash might consider. Lot of car for that price isn't it?
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>> Not too wallet damaging I hope !?
Fixed and apparently fine, but quite wallet damaging thank you Humph. Could almost have bought the four-years-younger red example for what it cost.
I wonder why they are so cheap actually. Some of the parts are very dear and some jobs are hard to do, so repair costs tend to be steep. But ours has been very reliable and hasn't needed much - a brake caliper and discs, a cambelt - in the four years or so we've had it.
I don't mind the way it looks. The flat grinning snout is a bit much but it's all right from most angles, like a car in a Robert Crumb cartoon... I don't worry much about people thinking I'm a fashion victim.
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Oh dear AC. Never an enjoyable moment having to part with recognisably substantial amounts of money just to put your car back to where it was before it went wrong is it?
I've just had an argu... ( discussion ) with my wife about the one I saw advertised. My opening gambit of "C'mere, look at this, tell me in what way your Qashqai, which cost ten times what this is being advertised for, is more useful in any measureable way?" fell rather flat. She exclaimed that I didn't understand, that her's was a far superior thing, that it looked nicer for a very big start, that she has standards, that...well, you know how it goes.
My counter that her's is equally challenged in looks, performs no better, is no more able to propel her, her stuff, the dog, the...well, you know how it goes...
Then, I said, "Same with the Merc isn't it, I can't think of a single reason why a Mondeo estate couldn't do everything just as well."
Apparently, I have to stop being so pompous and pour her a drink.
I am right though.
:-)
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>> I wonder why they are so cheap actually. Some of the parts are very dear and some jobs
>> are hard to do, so repair costs tend to be steep.
You've answered your own question I think. Cars are cheap to buy because expensive to maintain.
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I have seen a few Sparks around but I would go for the new Panda with the Twinair if I was in the market for that sort of car. It sounds like an inpressive little car though.
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>>I would go for the new Panda with the Twinair
Unless you're concerned about the fuel consumption. Read the reports.
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Seems to be how you drive it with the Panda. It has a lot of character so the test drivers rag the hell out of the car and then complain it only does 35 mpg. I think one should be able to get good miles out of a Twinair driven gently but too many are egged on by the twin cylinder buzz.
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I love two and three cylinder engines and am much attracted by the twin air. Only personal experience would show whether it could be driven reasonably economically - never mind 70 mpg, 40 or 50 would do me fine - without going depressingly slowly. My guess is that it could, but one would have to try it to be sure.
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The EU figures are always nonsense anyway. They claimed 70 mpg extra urban for my Fabia VRS when I bought it but best I have got is late 50s. The real world driving conditions are not the same as an automated test cylce. As to the Twin Air: Steve Cropley said the reason is Fiat have made a very eager and responsive engine which encourages people to drive it hard. The noise and the free revving nature see to that. However reading the forums if you drive in eco mode with restraint you can get 50 mpg out of a twinair.The engine also needs to be run in and loosened up as modern engines are built to tight tolerances. Trouble is that is very frustrating for some as it kills the engine's eagerness. A petrol is never going to be as efficient as a Diesel (which maintains optimum efficiency no matter how hard you drive it) no matter how efficient the tech is. With these new petrol economy cars you have to exercise restraint. Put your foot in it and it will revert to any petrol turbo behaviour i.e it will drink. I have no patience with the buyers who are yelling at their dealers and ringing trading standards as they are not getting 70 mpg from their twinairs. Mind you Fiat are very naughty to trump these EU figures in their advertising.
Last edited by: mattbod on Thu 10 May 12 at 14:53
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>> Mind you Fiat are very naughty
>> to trump these EU figures in their advertising.
>>
They are the only figures that the manufacturers are allowed to advertise. I don't hear them complaining though.
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The engine also needs to be run in and loosened up as modern engines are built to tight tolerances.
Is that right? 'Built to tight tolerances' doesn't mean a tight engine; I'd have thought the opposite. Back in the days when engines were designed by men with pipes and moustaches, and parts were shaped with a hammer and chisel, they needed a few thousand miles of gentle treatment for the parts to rub each other into shape. These days of computer design and laser machining, that sort of thing ought to be far less necessary, I'd have thought.
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>>Is that right?
No, not really.
The amount that materials expand when they get hot, and the amount of clearance required for an oil film to form rely on physics which haven't changed at all. The "tight clearances" line is usually seen in oil marketing BS, and promotional puff.
What has changed is the amount of effort which goes into improving the detail of the working surfaces - to enable them to form an efficient bearing surface which holds oil properly.
Running in - for new engines is no longer needed in the same way that it used to be. At the first oil change at 1000 miles, the oil would come out looking like metallic paint - that's no longer the case. I had the head off an Astra H the other week - with just less than 100k on the clock, the cross hatch marks on the pristine cylinder bores were still clearly visible.
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Clutch on way out, damn! Funny little hire car - Runfer D'Hills
