Laddo has just popped round (he has left home - its usually temporary till the money runs out) with a nissan leaf* and threw me the keys.
Its the single most funky looking, inside and out, automobile I have ever clapped me mincers on. Under the bonnet out has what looks like an engine till you notice no inlet manifold or exhaust. Interior space is fine, seats comfy, boot badly shaped, dash is like the helm of the starship enterprise. The car was white with white interior. To start, you press the blue lit start button, the dash lights up, you move a big button (where the gear lever is) right and forward for forward, and backwards for backwards, and then you press the loud peddle. Except its totally silent. Holly smoke batman, does this thing SHIFT. I stamped on the accelerator and its shot off at super car levels of acceleration from up to 20 mph, and then settled down to merely fast to 50. It handles really well, and is fabulous fun to drive.
After 10 minutes of fun I left him with barely an hours worth of range !
*IF* they can sort the battery charging scheme out, electric is the way to go.
*he was chosen for a TRRL electric car travel study, he has the car for 36 hours.
|
*he was chosen for a TRRL electric car travel study, he has the car for 36 hours. "
Sounds like 36 hours 'ownership' with 2 hours driving! How long does it take to charge?
|
8 hours
Tho there is a fast charger station in reading, if he makes it.
|
|
I'd have one (if I had Lud's sort of money) white interior you say, bit too girly for me and the mutt.
|
I don't think I would even if I had Lud's kind of money. Range is just too short.
But that vivid 0-30 acceleration would make a great traffic car. It might be a better idea in London. But even then, just when you need to do a double shift, you can't.
|
Don't really get these electric only jobs. In real life they must all surely be a letdown as soon as the owner actually needs to go somewhere.
I do sort of have a grudging respect for the Prius. it still looks like a prototype to me and I gather they aren't actually all that economical but I'm happy enough that a mainstream manufacturer is at least trying. Looong way to go though chaps !
Fuel cell technology has to be the real centre of effort doesn't it?
|
>>
>> Fuel cell technology has to be the real centre of effort doesn't it?
>>
Well it has to be something other than batteries in the current(apologies for oun) sense, given the way battery technology has been plodding along for the last century.
|
>> I do sort of have a grudging respect for the Prius. it still looks like
>> a prototype to me and I gather they aren't actually all that economical but I'm
>> happy enough that a mainstream manufacturer is at least trying. Looong way to go though
>> chaps !
drove a Lexus hybrid - same drivetrain as a Prius - recently.
Obviously there'll be tax implications when buying as a company vehicle, as well as congestion charge stuff etc etc etc, but economy-wise it wasn't as good as a decent turbodiesel/petrol engine. Something and nothing, but a step forward.
And VERY in-your-face fashionable at present - maybe that's why the design is so distinctive, top give Greenies a visual reminder that their car is green?
As one of my mates said, will probably be used as a commuter, and then the owner has a harley for weekends!
|
>>drove a Lexus hybrid - same drivetrain as a Prius - recently.
>>Obviously there'll be tax implications when buying as a company
>>vehicle, as well as congestion charge stuff etc etc etc, but economy-wise it wasn't as good as a decent
>>turbodiesel/petrol engine.
Compare like for like, a 1.8 litre petrol AUTOMATIC and it's streets ahead (add "family sized" for the Prius).
Last edited by: Kithmo on Tue 1 May 12 at 13:46
|
>> Compare like for like, a 1.8 litre petrol AUTOMATIC and it's streets ahead (add "family
>> sized" for the Prius).
The thing about the leaf was the INSTANT FAST pickup, something any petrol/diesel car can't even think about. The seamlessness of the acceleration, again something any combustion engine car can't achieve. Utterly amazing.
|
If you do it as a little-old-lady test, then yes, the hybrid will be streets ahead. If you drive in the real world, then the hybrid will be about the same.
I wrote this a while back:
"... in essence, we all want to be as good as we can be on the road, yet the possibility exists that your attention will become so diverted by trying to get a hi-score on the car that you’ll be driving like a complete muppet, and endangering yourself, and other road users. My friend summed it up perfectly – and automotive tamagotchi, demanding constant attention."
I'm actually all for hybrids and other alternative fuel-source cars - as long as their entire 'footprint' - to use a trendy term - is environmentally safe. At present, it isn't. Like Nuke Fuels, the problem isn't now, it is what will be in 50 years time.
But the PR at present is waving the green flag so much that I'm getting quite sick of the all the planet-saving bunny6-hugging schmaltz. When the US and China and Russia and us, and many other nations give it a big F-off to the Kyoto protocols, that little bit 'saved' on motor cars is just a mere feel-good sap to the latest trendiness.
|
|
I am doubtful of electric cars. They cost a fortune, and once we start using them, the government will find a way to claw back the lost petrol tax. Probably through tax meters in electric cars. Or some such scheme. And the batteries wear out, reducing range further, and after a few years you need to buy a new battery.
|
Some time ago I had the privilege of driving a preproduction prototype full electric car which will be launched soon by one of the big manufacturers. It was on a test track so I was really able to give it some beans.
From a standing start up to around 80km/h the acceleration was amazing and, of course, there is almost no drivetrain noise. Above 80km/h the torque is limited by software to prevent excessive wear and tear on the drivetrain (and probably squeeze a few more kms out of the battery). It was a bit weird actually, sailing into bends at over 100km/h without any acoustic indication as to how fast I was going.
I was very impressed with it. Then came the killer question. "What's the range? I asked. "About 100km on a full charge" was the reply. "Though with your driving style Mr. B., considerably less."
In the case of this model, the battery modules can be leased and empty ones swapped in a couple of minutes for fully charged ones - assuming there's an infrastructure to support this.
My problem with this idea is, I normally fill up the car when the range is down to 100km, so starting a journey knowing I only have 100km would make me more than a little uncomfortable. Also, the 100km is assuming it's not too cold, the car is not fully loaded and it's being driven by someone who doesn't have a heavy right foot.
|
Practical electric cars = pipe-dream.
(How do they think the batteries get charged? Fairy dust?)
|
"Practical electric cars = pipe-dream."
I think owners of horse drawn carriages were saying much the same about petrol motor cars in 1903
|
I wonder how much it would cost to put overhead cables on motorways and dual c/ws.
Stick a pole out of the back of the car and it may look like a bumper car but the range would be considerably increased!
|
Imagine phonimg the AA... "Hello, I'm stuck on the M? and I'm out of juice." "No problem, we'll send a chap with a few gallons for you!" "Errr, no... can you send a small power station instead, please!"
Seriously, what'll happen if/when one of these things croaks on the open road? With a 'normal' cra, you can always see the fuel light, and get off and refill. With a leccy car, you are pretty stuffed unless you can find a socket.
And what about emergencies?
"darling, I've just gone in to labour!" "Hold on 4 hours dear, and then there'll be juice to get you to hospital!'
|
>> I wonder how much it would cost to put overhead cables on motorways and dual c/ws.
We already have that. That is called railways. Not everyone can afford riding trains though.
|
yes the trains are the 'preserve of the rich'
did an MP actually say that ?
The only electric car's that come close to convenience is the Vauxhall Ampera or Toyota Prius and they not an electric only car (engine still being lugged about).
I would have neither of them.
I seriously looked into buying a big 7 series BMW with a blown engine and looked at converting to electric around 2002 ish.
I soon changed my mind when trying to find places that would sell big enough powered batteries and the cost was silly.
So a decent diesel any day is still cheaper.
|
>> Not everyone can afford riding trains though.
Mmm... not sure I'd be able to commute 150 miles at an average of 70mph at a total cost of <20p per mile in the Focus...
:) cost would be horrendous without advance tickets though
|
>> "Practical electric cars = pipe-dream."
>>
>> I think owners of horse drawn carriages were saying much the same about petrol motor
>> cars in 1903
>>
Petrol motor cars were using a fairly new form of propulsion in 1903, electric motors and battery technology have already had more than a century of development.
|
Has anyone tried a Vauxhall Ampera? In theory this is the answer: motive power is all-electric - so it presumably has the instant step-off that so impressed Zero - but when the battery is running out, the petrol motor comes in not to take over as with the Prius but to charge the electric motor.
But is the electric motor as powerful as that in the Leaf?
|
>> Vauxhall Ampera?
Quite. There's been a bit of a silence. The auxiliary, battery-charging petrol engine is supposedly a constant speed Atkinson thingy, so super-economical. That's the one I have been awaiting impatiently. Is it another pipe dream though?
Or are the suits arguing endlessly over whether to charge too much for it, or much, much too much?
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Wed 2 May 12 at 00:40
|
|
It's pretty clear that all-electric cars are going to be rubbish for long-distance inter-city motoring, but let's not forget that there are millions of people who live and work in a solely urban environment. They only tend to commute or travel short-ish distances for 99% of their motoring, i.e. in and around greater London. In this context electric cars may well take off, if the price is right of course... Beats paying for a Travelcard on the grotty, germ-laden Tube!
|
Exactly. It is not the range that is holding city dwellers back from electric car purchase it is the price and current lack of recharging infrastucture. Sort these out and electric cars will be the norm in crowded cities.
|
My quick and dirty sums are on electric cars:
1KWH = 3.5 miles range.. roughly.
The max draw from a home electric circuit - roughly = 15-30amps.
Max charging rate for most batteries due to internal heating = 2 to 5KWH..
So to gain a 100 mile range 35KWH = at best 7 hours charging..
Really really practical NOT.
As for the Ampera (Volt in US?) in typical GM style, it's under-engineered and had a recall for catching fire..I think US VOLT sales were 10k last year.. basically stopped selling it.
Would I buy a highly engineered product from GM? They don't do well engineered.
Would I buy an electric car from any French producer? They don't do long lasting electrics.
|
Most of my journeys are either 15 miles each way to/from work, or 50/70 to LGW or LHR As long as I could guarantee being able to plug the car in when I got to the airport then I'm sure it'd be fine...
Also, since we have two cars having one electric one would make perfect sense, and given the two car scenario I can't forsee any circumstances in which range would be a limiting factor.
Up front cost on the other hand is a major barrier - I'm not likely to want to spend £30+k on a commuting only kind of car when a VW Up! is less than £10k
|
I feel that the price is the main sticking point.
At £37,000(£32,000 after grant),you are into prestige car territory.I would rather have a Jaguar,Bmw or Audi for 32 grand rather than a 17 grand Vauxhall with 15 grands worth of batteries and motors.
The only way Vauxhall are going to sell this car is to price it around £20,000 after grant.
Most of my driving is less than 5 miles each way and i have a garage with electricity in it so an Ampera would suit me just fine.Its the price that gets my back up.
|
The thing that will kill electric cars is the human element. How many people will remember to recharge it after using it? If a petrol car is short of fuel a 10 minute detour to a filling station ... is all that is needed. If an electric car is short of charge, wait 7 hours..
Given the society that produces people who refill petrol bottles in a kitchen with a lighted gas cooker, about 10% of potential users will forget to put the thing on charge... rendering it useless .. or run out of charge 10 miles from home/.....
|
>> >> Given the society that produces people who refill petrol bottles in a kitchen with a
>> lighted gas cooker, about 10% of potential users will forget to put the thing on
>> charge... rendering it useless .. or run out of charge 10 miles from home/.....
>>
Given that EVERY day we have some gormless person in the office running about asking if anybody has a Nokia/Samsung/Ericsson charger, I'd hazard that the figure is higher than 10%.
|
>> Given that EVERY day we have some gormless person in the office running about asking
>> if anybody has a Nokia/Samsung/Ericsson charger, I'd hazard that the figure is higher than 10%.
That's as much a testament to the crappy battery life of modern phones as it is forgetfulness.
|
Not really, I was often running out of power on my Nokia 6310 (the best mobile phone ever made) because with battery life of 4 - 6 days you forget it needs power.
With a phone that runs out daily you get used to a charging schedule.
|
Buy a small petrol genny...the camping type. Keep it in the boot with a couple of gallons of fuel.
If you run out of volts.....Bingo ! A petrol-electric. Tilling-Stevens did it in the 1920s !
You'd have to leave the tailgate up as you drove, though. Or arrive home dead.
Ted
|
>> With a phone that runs out daily you get used to a charging schedule.
I think modern phones are worse, because they don't have a charging schedule. It depends entirely on use.
My Galaxy S, given light use, will get two days from a charge. Given heavy use, such as a couple of conference calls, or use of the GPS, it will get about 4-5 hours. Of course there are many, many permutations in between.
It's predictable to a degree, and I generally put the charger in my bag in the morning, but I do get "caught short" sometimes.
Battery technology has woefully failed to keep pace with other electronic advances in the last couple of decades. Which comes back neatly to why cars such as the Nissan LEAF, impressive as they may be, are absolutely useless for much of the motoring population.
|
For a plug in electric car to be user friendly you need the following:
1 Plug in sockets at front and rear of cars - so you have an alternative if you parked away from the socket/went into garage wrong way.
2. Totally waterproof/idiot proof sockets with a quick release mechanism so driving off with the cable connected does not break the cable.
or
3. Impossible to move the car when the charging socket is connected.
As most drivers will charge their car overnight and can be inattentive in mornings...
I don't know if any plugins have the above: if not they are a waste of space as impractical...
|
Prius plugin
Charge from empty in 90 minutes using standard household socket(only "up to" a 15 mile range on that though). Quicker charge with upgrading charging point "available from £275"
Come with seven metres of charging cable so should reach any garage socket.
Car won't start at all with lead plugged in.
No doubt the idea is niche, and it's pointless going on about how it doesn't fit a particular driving usage. If you DO have the appropriate usage pattern then an electric, or hybrid, or range extended car can make some sense, other than the hopeless purchase price (which can only drop as the technology matures).
For me, with a 10 mile each way commute and a charging point available at both ends I could run my entire working week with shopping trips thrown in (Tesco is on the way) on no petrol at all with a Prius plug in.
Info here:
www.toyota.co.uk/cgi-bin/toyota/bv/frame_start.jsp?id=CC2-Prius-Plug-landing
Last edited by: Crankcase on Thu 3 May 12 at 11:11
|
"No doubt the idea is niche, and it's pointless going on about how it doesn't fit a particular driving usage."
That's exactly right and the niche is pretty big. Many drivers don't do more than 20 or 30 miles a day. Once the price drops the take up will be huge. Car manufacturers aren't investing millions in electric dar development without expecting an eventual return.
|
Yesterday's autoexpress had a write up on Renault's upcoming small electric car:
www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/firstdrives/281047/renault_zoe.html
At £13,650 it's a much more appealing proposition, but leasing batteries @ £70/month is probably not much cheaper that the petrol used for a similar mileage? Interesting though, and at a price point that makes it much more atractive. I'm almost tempted ;-)
|
|
Another grand buys you a Yaris hybrid with no ongoing battery lease.
|
I have to say I didn't even know that there was a Yaris hybrid, but it's the pure electric nature of the Renault that appeals. I'm still not convinced by hybrid/petrol technolgy, though I ackowledge their commercial success and their ability to deliver stunning CO2/Km result.
A relative has had a couple of Prius's, but only averages mid 40s to the gallon (he's of relatively advanced years, so I don't think a heavy right foot is the cause). My Mother gets mid 50s to the gallon from a Golf 2.0TDI, and even my Merc does low 40s to the gallon. An infinite number of miles to the gallon though; that's appealing :-)
|
so who fancies paying out for a Renault Zoe only to be paying an extra £720 a year for battery cover ?
Seems a bit of a joke really.
At the moment, even if you don't have the cash to pay for a car outright, you can get a car on HP.
At least you know in 3 to 5 years you would have finished buying the vehicle.
The Renault Zoe has a cost of £70 a month for the duration of it's life and that's if you brought the car outright.
No real alternative compared to a good diesel car.
|
|
Even at current (!) prices that's less than a tank of diesel though, and an EV has to be lower maintenance than a modern diesel engine don't you think? Be interesting to know what regular maintenance is required!
|
So here's a thought: supposing that all electric cars had easily exchangeable, standardised batteries, and some petrol stations had fully charged items for exchange... you swap your flat battery(ies) plus some cash for a full one(s). You could even make it modular: a little car takes 2 batteries, bigger ones more. You could swap out as many batteries as you needed to get you where you are going.
If we were setting this up from scratch, that's what I'd suggest. It's probably already too late now.
Just a thought...
Alex.
|
not physically possible.
You would need a ware house to house the amount of battery trays needed.
Then there is the amount of electricity needed to charge them at a rapid rate, ready for say every tenth customer.
Electricity on it's own is not the way ahead.
Something like compressed air would work (if the technology was good enough).
Compressed air can be moved quick or slowly, so refilling a compressed air tank could be done in the same amount of time it currently takes to fill a petrol car.
Last edited by: diddy1234 on Thu 3 May 12 at 14:20
|
The petrol hybrid exists because modern battery technology is not very effective or cheap or light.
And guess what? It uses rare earths - 90% of all world production is controlled by China.. Yes I know there are moves to re-open old non Chinese mines but we are talking years and years...
As for sharing batteries, the whole point of Battery cars is the battery technology... so a common standard is not likely .. (see Ipads/mobile phones)
|
Well - Renault are doing the battery swap model already, in Israel, with the Fluence.
See
www.businessgreen.com/bg/news/2140832/launches-electric-car-battery-swap-model-israel
200 garages on board with it, and the car does 140 miles on a set.
|
Nissan LEAF - Nissan Leaf - sherlock47
