Motoring Discussion > Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer	Buying / Selling
Thread Author: Stuu	Replies: 70

Mon 26 Apr 10 22:32   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - Stuu

cgi.ebay.co.uk/1997-ROVER-400-RED-FULL-SERVICE-HISTORY-27K_W0QQitemZ110524337570QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAutomobiles_UK?hash=item19bbc38da2 Note the claim for a FULL service history. Its utter rubbish to make such a claim since it appears to have had less than half its annual service done according to the ebayers list! Not changing the oil for 5 years does not a full history make. Ignorance at its best. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 26 Apr 10 22:42   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - Dave_

They seem to have some difficulty with the idea of "k" denoting 1,000 miles too. "Make a family happy for years to come"? Yes, his. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Mon 26 Apr 10 22:55   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - RattleandSmoke

An under used rover with a K series engine. I hope it comes complete with an oink and a spare head gasket! I've noticed its needed new suspension bushes despite its low milleage - just goes to show age really is a car killer. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 26 Apr 10 22:58   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - Stuu

Quite, if you want a K-series to last, you need regular coolant and oil changes. Its actually worth avoiding over one with 150k but with the correct fluid changes. These engines HATE lack of use, it kills them, ive seen it so often. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 26 Apr 10 23:03   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - RattleandSmoke

Just noticed it is had a bid for £800. Its a 14 year old Rover based on a 1992 Honda design! Ouch. Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Mon 26 Apr 10 at 23:03 Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 26 Apr 10 23:07   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - Zero

it is only the 1.4, which is more reliable on the HG front Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 27 Apr 10 13:44   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - Kithmo

>> it is only the 1.4 which is more reliable on the HG front >> Tell that to the step daughter, Rover 214 (early Rover 25), 2 head gaskets in 2 years. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 26 Apr 10 23:07   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - Stuu

If you watch ebay alot you will realise people are paying very strong money for even older cars atm Rattle due to lack of available cars. Theres very little about and anything with MOT is £500 even if its tatty. Its crazy but thats where things are right now. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 26 Apr 10 23:13   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - Dave_

>> anything with MOT is £500 There's hope for my Escort yet then! The only trouble is, when I want to buy a replacement, >>anything with MOT is £500 :-( Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 26 Apr 10 23:14   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - Zero

I bought a tidy 94 cavalier for 400 quid in January. Sailed through the mot. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 26 Apr 10 23:19   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - Dave_

I was eyeing up late diesel Cavaliers with ABS around then, but the ones I liked the look of all went for twice what I expected. I'm not scared of mileage either, I've had a 200k one before and seen them with twice that. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 26 Apr 10 23:16   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - RattleandSmoke

Escorts were never that popular, back in 2002 we bought an as new Escort 1.6 (N reg new shape) for £1600 it had 62,000 on the clock, 8 months MOT and FSH. We had till 2007 when some sad events meant the chassis rusted. A good working Escrt is best kept by the owner because it will always be worth more to them. Like you say it may be worth £500-£700 but you have to replace it. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 26 Apr 10 23:13   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - RattleandSmoke

Makes me realise I gave my old Corsa away far too cheaply. It may have lacked an MOT and it did need a new head gasket but it was in stunning condition and had all the extras. I did keep all the service history though (for tax reasons) but if the buyer wasn't such a cheeky git I would have given him a copy of everything (an entire box full!). I reckon my dads Fiesta would be worth £600 with a full MOT and that is despite it rusting on one of the arches. It has four months MOT at current and I bet its still worth £400 even though the car should be expired. It is the main reason I went for the brand new Panda, it just seemed far better value than anything on the used market. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 26 Apr 10 23:16   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - Dave_

Rattle - there are two V reg Festers for sale near me - one up at £995 and the other at £1495. Neither of them look particularly pretty either. The £995 Fiesta is on a forecourt that in the last week has sold a P-plate 150k Mondeo MkI for £600 and an R-plate Escort for £700, so your dad's T-reg is probably worth more than you think! The fact that it's under 1549cc and a low insurance group helps no end. Last edited by: Dave_TD {P} on Mon 26 Apr 10 at 23:17 Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 26 Apr 10 23:22   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - RattleandSmoke

Its an R reg but its actually a 1996 build due to being a very odd spec. It has the old 1.3 OVH engine but has:- Electric drivers seat Quick clear windscreen electric mirrors electric windows 14" alloys central locking (was remote but that bit no longer works) Rear head rests No passenger air bag or ABS Front fot lights Manual Sunroof Power steering I believe it is probably the only Fiesta in this bizarre spec ever built. The MK4 Ghia 1.3 was only in production for a few months. It spent 18 months on a field before finding its first registered keeper so its actually an N reg even though it wasn't registered until December 2007. It does have a full service history though (every MOT since 2000 and at least one oil change every year). I always believed for an old banger to be worth something it had to be rust free but I could not believe how many garages were trying to sell W reg Focuses with rusty wheel arches for £2k. Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Mon 26 Apr 10 at 23:23 Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 26 Apr 10 23:24   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - R.P.

December 2007 ??? That would make it a 57 reg ! Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 26 Apr 10 23:26   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - RattleandSmoke

1997 sorry!! Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 26 Apr 10 23:33   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - Dave_

That's a lot of kit for a Fiesta! Effectively the same as my Escort Ghia X but without aircon. Absolutely right about the rusty Focuses though. I bought a 1999 mondeo in 2003 for £3995, try finding a 2006 one today for that price. Reply to this message | Report message

Mon 26 Apr 10 23:42   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - RattleandSmoke

Indeed but it had a list price in early 1997 of £11,000 so even then a car with an over head valve engine and no aircon at that price would need a big discount. Its group four insurance and even a cheap Kumho tyre is £60. It also does about 28-38mpg due to the weight of it. Loads of sound proofing everywhere. I actually came to the conclusion that used any supermini less than years old is not really worth buying second hand because they keep their value too well. For little more you can have something brand new. I suppose the problem is many people can no longer get credit for new cars hence them being a massive market for £1000 bangers. My friend paid £3500 for a four year old top spec Clio back in 2008. Her friend was selling it and the dealer offered £3500 for it PX so she sold it to her instead. 40k and a few accidents later I think it is still worth £3500. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 27 Apr 10 02:35   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - Lygonos

The ad in the OP shows a seller with a feedback of 4. It also shows that in the last 2 mths he has sold 2 other cars. He/she is also selling a 1998 Laguna (114k on that one). Undeclared dealing methinks. Avoid unless seen before sale. Last edited by: Lygonos on Tue 27 Apr 10 at 02:37 Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 27 Apr 10 07:04   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - Auntie Lockbrakes

To the unwary, that Rover looks like a tidy little runabout to me - for 750 quid tops. My old man bought one just like it in '97 and it gave him several years great service. No head gasket worries whatsoever. Biggest fault with age was a spot of rust where the top of the windscreen meets the roof! These old Rovers weren't that bad at the time. Overpriced possibly, and not as good as the previous model, but not dogs. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Tue 27 Apr 10 07:48   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - jc2

There were plenty of odd spec Fiestas about at that time! I owned a 1.8D 5-door Fiesta Ghia-all singing-all dancing.Shortly after that the Fiesta range was "rationalized".I could only get an "L" in diesel/5 door spec. and you could not even add the extras to bring it upto to near the Ghia spec. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 27 Apr 10 08:11   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - Fenlander

Yep a wannabe dealer without doubt... there was a Mercedes 220 in Feb as well that doesn't show on feedback. But... I have no problem with the full service history statement as I'd never assume that meant anything other than full records of what had been carried out. It's up to the buyer to be happy with the intervals.... and fair play to the guy he lists all the services so nothing's hidden. Seems there's a nice little trade in tidy sub £1k motors at the moment. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 27 Apr 10 08:26   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - Stuu

To me, full service history suggests that the full servicing schedule has been followed. The pity of it is, that someone who knows nothing about cars - a large proportion of the car buying public - will assume that is all the servicing the car was supposed to have and Im quite sure he will drum into them about the 12,000 mile intervals and neglect to mention the 12 month alternative. I hadnt looked at the history on the ebayer, but he is literally 3 miles down the road from me in a VERY nice village - I was actually going to look at this car until I saw the glaringly obvious holes in its SH. It just annoys me because Im quite sure this ebayer knows they are talking rubbish, so one to avoid I suspect shouldnt they be resgistered as a business seller? Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 27 Apr 10 08:44   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - Stuu

Well after I messaged the ebayer last night he messaged back this morning - admitted he was in the trade but had NEVER hear of servicing on age. Oh dear oh dear! Are all traders this dumb? Apparently age-related servicing is a secret they keep in servicing departments! If anyone else on ebay fancies making the same query with him go ahead, he knows he has been caught out haha. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 27 Apr 10 09:25   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - ....

>> Well after I messaged the ebayer last night he messaged back this morning - admitted >> he was in the trade but had NEVER hear of servicing on age. Oh dear >> oh dear! >> This is the reason I steer clear of eBay for items like cars. You have no idea where that £800 bid came from. Could be shill bidding for all we know, seller gets what he wants without having to put on a reserve. Last edited by: gmac on Tue 27 Apr 10 at 09:26 Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 27 Apr 10 11:36   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - Fenlander

>>>seller gets what he wants without having to put on a reserve. No the seller gets what someone was willing to pay. Shill too high and you look a fool having to relist. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 27 Apr 10 11:41   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - ....

>> Shill too high and you look a fool having to relist. >> True, but in this case, a fourteen year old, mass produced hatchback with no reserve and the opening bid is £800 ? Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 27 Apr 10 11:55   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - Fenlander

I must admit I hate that ebay now hide bidders id's. In the old days it was easy to spot an item being bid up when you could see who was doing what. If a start price is very low I'm not that stressed if someone protects the price of a more expensive item up to a degree. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 27 Apr 10 08:43   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - Dog

>>To the unwary, that Rover looks like a tidy little runabout to me - for 750 quid tops.<< I'm with Nick :) Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 27 Apr 10 09:02   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - Mike Hannon

I'd be tempted to buy it. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 27 Apr 10 09:34   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - Iffy

Can't see the problem with the history, it's had a few oil changes and barely been used in between. Who cares about history on a 15-year-old mainstream car anyway? It's not like it's an Aston Martin with a titled first owner, or a Rolls that used to belong to a celebrity. Buy this Rover on condition, nothing else. I would be more concerned about it having stood idle for long periods. If it drove OK, I'd be tempted for under a grand. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Tue 27 Apr 10 10:50   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - Fenlander

The more I look at the Rover listing the less I can see why it would attract negative comments. It's a clean description with all the important detail and a good set of photos. I have looked after several low mileage cars (as little as 1000mls a year) where the owners have flat refused my advice for at least a yearly oil change. In truth none of them has suffered any aging related issues so the *do you have to have a yearly service* question is open to the buyer to decide. My Dad's in the market for this type of car but at about £3k. For the crack up to £1k for this one I'd be tempted to give it a look/spin. Last edited by: Fenlander on Tue 27 Apr 10 at 10:51 Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 27 Apr 10 11:12   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - Dog

I had customers who *NEVER* changed their engine oil at all (petrol) Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 27 Apr 10 11:30   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - Dave_

>> I suppose the problem is many people can no longer get credit for new cars hence them being a massive market for £1000 bangers I think it's that, plus (as has been discussed ad nauseum) that 1/3 of a million 10yr old+ cars, all with MoTs and solvent owners, have been crushed just lately. Most of those were likely to have made canny purchases on the 2nd hand market - now they've been taken out of the equation the proportion of overpriced dross has increased. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 27 Apr 10 11:52   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - Mapmaker

As you note, the 10-year-old cars that have been crushed are the ones that belonged to solvent owners, so the ones likely to have had only 1/2 owners from new. Such a waste of good quality cars. And notwithstanding the fact that it's a trader selling it, it looks like a nice motor. It's probably been garaged from new, it's been serviced reasonably well. If the vendor threw away the service history you wouldn't even give it a second thought, would you? Last edited by: Mapmaker on Tue 27 Apr 10 at 11:53 Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 27 Apr 10 12:43   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - Stuu

True, without the history its still a nice car, but making a silly claim like that just exposes the ignorance of the seller - better to have said it has service history but not go into what that entails. If he had replied and said fair play, its not had many services etc then that would have been a fair response, but to plead ignorance about the service schedule but at the same time claim to be a motor trader ( who if they are worth buying from would know something so simple ) is just silly. Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 27 Apr 10 12:52   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - RattleandSmoke

I am not sure how auctions work but I thought there was a legal requirement to state the person is a trader on the add? Reply to this message | Report message

Tue 27 Apr 10 12:52   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - RattleandSmoke

I would never ever buy a used car without at least an oil change every year. I have been caught out too many times with this. For 300 quid it dosn't matter for for 1k it is far too much money to loose as I found out. My Corsa looked like new but it was worthless with a broken engine! Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Apr 10 23:34   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - DP

Re anything with a ticket being worth £500, my neighbour has just picked up his latest station car. A 110,000 mile, fairly tidy, 1997 Escort 1.6 LX 4dr saloon with 6 months MOT. For nothing (Freecycle). It was advertised as a non-runner and had to be collected on a trailer. The seller had bought another car, and his wife was nagging him to get shot of this one as it was clogging up the garden. He just wanted it out the way, so decided to Freecycle it. After some investigative work, my neighbour discovered the starter motor was shot. £25 from the breakers later, and half an hours work, he turned the key expecting to find more woes. It fired first go. Needed the handbrake mechanism freeing off and some other TLC, but it's a little corker. A legal, useable car that stands him at about £45 in parts/materials, and an afternoon's work. It can still be done. Reply to this message | Report message       2

Wed 28 Apr 10 23:38   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - Focusless

The Rover only attracted the one bid in the end, going for £800 (link in top post). Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Apr 10 23:42   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - RattleandSmoke

So I wonder if the seller bought his own car? If so he has just lost a fortune in ebay charges! Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Apr 10 23:49   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - Fenlander

I wondered if he'd ended up buying it in and wasting fees. However cars are cheap to sell on Ebay given the national exposure you have. I've just sold an £800 trailer which I understand is the same charge rate as a car and that was just £31-49 for listing and final sale fee..... bargain. Reply to this message | Report message

Wed 28 Apr 10 23:48   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - Stuu

Good, Im glad it didnt go for a fortune, it wasnt worth it. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 29 Apr 10 09:53   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - Mapmaker

Rattle>> I would never ever buy a used car without at least an oil change every >> year. I have been caught out too many times with this. So no variable service cars for you then. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 29 Apr 10 11:48   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - RattleandSmoke

Nope my Corsa didn't have a service every year towards the end as the owner was doing 4k a year. By the time it had reached 83k it needed a new chain and head gasket. My dads is on 86k now and has had an oil change every year and the engine is still in very good order. It doesn't even sound tappety like most old fiestas. It always more than passes the emissions. 5k in a year and no oil change is stupid because of the amount of short journeys that car has probably done. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Thu 29 Apr 10 07:53   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - L'escargot

It depends on how you interpret "Full service history". If everything ever done to a car has been recorded then it has a full service history. Nothing that has been done to it during its lifetime has been omitted from the records. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 29 Apr 10 08:17   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - Fenlander

Agree with L'escargot. I see the seller has feedback from a buyer about 10mls away across Northampton from him. Hope it was genuinely sold then everyone's happy. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 29 Apr 10 08:54   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - Iffy

...I see the seller has feedback from a buyer about 10mls away across Northampton from him... Perhaps Stu bought it after all and he's not telling us. :) Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 29 Apr 10 08:57   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - Stuu

Goodness no. I would only buy the 416 auto with the Honda engine if I were to buy one, but my wife finds them uncomfortable so cant get one anyway. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 29 Apr 10 12:43   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - sajid

hey rattle how much did you sell the corsa, on hj forum you spent around 700 on it, when the panda comin then ?? Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 29 Apr 10 13:57   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - RattleandSmoke

£868 was the final figure. I can't remember exactly what I had done to it but from memory New Bosch MAF (fitted myself) Three new tyres New rear shocks Four new springs Oil change New plugs New filters New windscreen wipers New ball joint Complete catback exhaust New brake pads New brake fluid New coolent Sold it for £250 needing tracking, head gasket, MOT and tax. The Panda is supposed to be arriving in May :). Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 29 Apr 10 12:44   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - FotheringtonTomas

This thread title irritates me - how do *you* know the bloke can't speak? Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 29 Apr 10 13:18   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - Prof Branestawm

>> This thread title irritates me - how do *you* know the bloke can't speak? >> The word dumb has a number of meanings, one of which is very obvious in the context of the thread header. I ask in all curiosity, are you trying to be funny or irritate ? Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 29 Apr 10 13:28   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - FotheringtonTomas

>> The word dumb has a number of meanings one of which is very obvious in >> the context of the thread header It should be "dim", "stupid", or something else. >> I ask in all curiosity are you trying to be funny or irritate ? Neither. Don't be silly, whoever you are, you one-post wonder.l Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 29 Apr 10 13:33   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - Stuu

My apologies FT. It turns out the guy was a question-dodging trader but I was assuming at the time it was a less than well-informed member of the public. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 29 Apr 10 13:39   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - Focusless

>> It should be "dim" ...as in "Faintly outlined; indistinct"? :) Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 29 Apr 10 13:42   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - Focusless

...and I did think PB had a fair point BTW, but then I do have a habit of missing invisible smileys. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 29 Apr 10 14:02   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - car4play

>> ... you one-post wonder. No name calling please FT. ;-) We don't want to put of new folk no matter how silly the post may look, otherwise may look like an exclusive club which we aren't. Can we cut some slack at least for the first few posts of a newcomer? On the other hand Prof Branestawm, welcome here. Why don't you introduce yourself in the other forum (Introduce yourself). It's easier to settle in here with a drink in hand first. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 29 Apr 10 14:23   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - FotheringtonTomas

>> >> ... you one-post wonder. >> We don't want to put of new folk Do you really, really think that this is a genuine post from a genuine first-time poster? Neither do I. However, I'm eternally optimistic, and would like to be pleasantly surprised. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 29 Apr 10 14:30   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - Focusless

>> Do you really really think that this is a genuine post from a genuine first-time >> poster? Perhaps you could raise the issue first with the mods, so you don't 1. put off a genuine poster 2. confuse the easily confused (me) Reply to this message | Report message       1

Thu 29 Apr 10 14:37   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - Zero

matters not who he was, the point is well made. At the end of the day, I know what the original poster meant, everyone else on here knew what the orginal poster meant and YOU knew what the orginal poster meant. None of those assumed the post was about a person who had lost the power of speech, selling a car through ebay. The term "dumb" on here was using the generally recognised term for someone was believed to be stupid. Now let us look at the dictionary dumb   –adjective 1. lacking intelligence or good judgment; stupid; dull-witted. 2. lacking the power of speech (often offensive when applied) Now that seems to me to be perfectly clear. As it appears to have been used properly and in context then it seems you are annoyed by the actual word "dumb" and wished us to know about it, in which case you have achieved your objective. Reply to this message | Report message       1

Thu 29 Apr 10 15:22   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - FotheringtonTomas

Use an american dictionary, get americanised results. Don't get in such a stew, dear. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 29 Apr 10 15:56   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - Zero

>> Use an american dictionary get americanised results. Don't get in such a stew dear. Indeed, and you see again correct, because and I dont know if you have realised this yet, this is an INTERNATIONAL medium. Not your parochial back yard. . . . . . . . Dear. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 29 Apr 10 14:43   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - car4play

>> Do you really really think that this is a genuine post from a genuine first-time poster? Clicking on his alias shows that this is indeed his first post. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 29 Apr 10 15:19   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - FotheringtonTomas

Well, that's the first stage in my desire to be pleasantly surprised achieved. I'm betting against the second, although "I'm eternally optimistic, and would like to be pleasantly surprised". Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 29 Apr 10 16:03   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - BiggerBadderDave

"Clicking on his alias shows that this is indeed his first post." Could it have been a regular poster who wanted to make a point, but didn't have the stones to do it using his own alias, so opens a new account...? Reply to this message | Report message       1

Thu 29 Apr 10 18:15   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - car4play

>> Could it have been a regular poster who wanted to make a point but didn't >> have the stones to do it using his own alias so opens a new account...? Good point. Indeed this could be true. Reply to this message | Report message

Thu 29 Apr 10 19:18   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - Stuu

Not guilty, im too well known for arguing :-) Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 30 Apr 10 01:48   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - Auntie Lockbrakes

You owning-up BBD?! Reply to this message | Report message

Fri 30 Apr 10 22:51   Now this annoys me - dumb ebayer - BiggerBadderDave

"You owning-up BBD?!" I doubt my reputation could sink any lower. In fact I'd have to sign on as a new poster just to make a sensible post. Reply to this message | Report message