My car has just under 8400 miles on the clock. The service is due in the next few weeks. I phoned round the quotes. Arnold Clark wanted told me it needs the second year service which involves new coolant and new spark plugs etc! They told me it would affect the warranty if I didn't have the plugs changed!.
I told Lookers this (the other FIAT dealer within 10 miles of me) and they said it is a load of crap and as the car only has 8500 miles the spark plugs certainly don't need changing (I knew this already) and told me that they need to be changed every 34,000 miles.
.*********
However I know brake fluid does weaken as it gets older due to moisture so is it worth having it done else where? I was planning of getting the fluid changed when the car is 3-4 years old.
I just cannot wait the car is old enough to get serviced at my local backstreet.
The bit that was edited out was the dealer (Lookers) are stating on their database that I declined the £60 (reduced from £80) brake fluid change, telling them I am not going to pay £60 for them to squeeze a few nipples!
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 4 Apr 12 at 12:47
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I would change the brake fluids as and when required in the service schedule especially if you have ABS and intend to keep the car long-term.
Not sure on the design of your engine - it may be prudent to at least remove the spark-plugs and put them back in suitably lubricated with Copperslip or similar in case they seize especially as it might take another few years to do the "change" mileage.
Last edited by: R.P. on Wed 4 Apr 12 at 12:29
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I will check it on the service schedule now, I am sure my indie will be able to this quite cheaply, on a new car I can't see there will be a problem with things like seized nipples either.
£60.00 does seem like a huge amount.
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Just checked and it should be done every 24,000 miles or every two years. Might have a word with my local indie to see how much he will charge. I can't even trust the fast fit places to even do the work.
I assume to change the brake fluid you have to bleed the brakes too? The service manual simply says "change brake fluid".
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It's one and the same thing, Rattle. Suck out the bulk of the fluid from the reservoir and replace it, then go round and bleed the brakes one at a time (preferably with a pressure or vac bleeder!) till the clean fluid comes out. Top up the reservoir and you're done. £60 at dealer rates seems about right - 45 mins labour, plus the litre of so of fluid.
I doubt the coolant needs changing on a modern car - it's normally long life OAT stuff now that is good for at least 5 years, but check the service schedule...
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Spark plugs deteriorate with age as well as mileage !
Last edited by: Skip on Wed 4 Apr 12 at 13:04
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>> speak plugs >>
never heard them speak.
>> brake fluid does weaken as it gets older due to moisture >>
This is possibly one of those situations where "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" is the good advice. DIY brake fluid changes can introduce more moisture than what is in there now.
Moisture in brake fluid - isn't that a worry no longer with modern better sealed brake systems?
>> Spark plugs deteriorate with age as well as mileage ! >>
BMW spark plugs change is scheduled at 100,000 miles.
Last edited by: John H on Wed 4 Apr 12 at 13:35
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>> BMW spark plugs change is scheduled at 100,000 miles.
Every 80,000 or 8 years in my 2.2 Vectra.
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Yes, I am interested to find out what the age related deterioration mechanism is.
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4 yrs/60000 miles in mine.
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As part of a service, the labour time allowance for a brake fluid change is usually 0.3 hours - 18 minutes - which is more than enough.
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>> How big are the Nipples?
Depends, how cold is it?
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>> I told Lookers this (the other FIAT dealer within 10 miles of me) and they
>> said it is a load of crap ...........
I wouldn't do business with a dealer which used expressions such as "a load of crap". I would want a more factual and less emotive statement.
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The dealer has to stick to the service schedule because they arent supposed to encourage you to deviate from it if its still within warranty.
Whatever the book says, id do it and stop being a cheapskate.
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>> stop being a cheapskate.
>>
Salvage the old plugs from the dealer's bin and save them for when it's out of warranty.
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First brake fluid change on VW's is at 3 yrs. Hard to imagine the brake fluid they use if any better than anyone else's.
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>> First brake fluid change on VW's is at 3 yrs.
>>
Seems all hit and miss when to change. I suspect erring on the safe side is why a two year change period is common?
I thought there was now a simple test on a small sample of brake fluid that would indicate the water content / time to change it situation.
>> Hard to imagine the brake fluid they use if any better than anyone else's.
>>
I agree.
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He does live in "Manchestuh" L'es !
"load of crap" is quite polite there. If they'd meant to be offensive to their competition they'd have been much more direct than that.
:-)
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I've always done a fluid change at two years, even in my old jalopies. Brake fluid is hygroscopic which means it absorbs moisture. This reduces the boiling temperature of the fluid, as well as doing expensive components like your ABS pump no good whatsoever. For the trivial cost, it's worth getting done. As N_C says, this is a very quick job for a good technician with the right equipment.
The first time I saw our mechanic do it, I couldn't believe how fast it was. He did the whole thing and had it down off the ramps in the time it would have taken me to jack the car up on the drive, support it, and possibly get clean fluid out of one bleed nipple.
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Scuse me if I'm a bit orf track here (I'm on the hoover AND the slow cooker!) but how can the bleeding bleeding be classed as a brake fluid change if its only bled from one nipple?
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Brake fluid change every two years on the CC3.
Does anyone still clean and re-gap spark plugs?
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>> Does anyone still clean and re-gap spark plugs?
I do on my lawn mower and motorbike. But they're single electrode plugs.
You shouldn't try and regap multi-electrode plugs as you're never get the gaps the same and as the spark travels across the shortest gap, one of the electrodes will wear quicker than the others.
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>> Scuse me if I'm a bit orf track here (I'm on the hoover AND the
>> slow cooker!) but how can the bleeding bleeding be classed as a brake fluid change
>> if its only bled from one nipple?
No it's my poor explanation.
What I meant was I would be a quarter of the way through the job when he'd finished.
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>> Brake fluid is hygroscopic which means it absorbs moisture. This reduces the boiling temperature of the fluid, as well as doing expensive components like your ABS pump no good whatsoever. >>
In the USA, the "Big 3" domestic OEM manufacturers say that the brake fluid in their vehicles lasts the life of the vehicle:
www.aa1car.com/library/procut02.htm
www.aa1car.com/library/procut3b.htm
A flavour of their views:
Chrysler:
"Chrysler says their fluid can absorb up to 3 percent water and still meet the DOT 3 specifications for boiling temperature. Consequently, they see no reason to change the fluid for preventive maintenance.
In the past, European brake systems used vented master cylinder caps and lower quality hose and seal materials which allowed moisture to contaminate the fluid relatively quickly. Because of this, the brake fluid had to be changed periodically. But this is no longer true. Most European and domestic vehicles use sealed master cylinders with EPDM hoses and seals that resist moisture penetration. So fluid changes are a thing of the past, Chrysler says.
Fluid contamination by wear particles from seals and internal corrosion can sometimes cause problems, and particles as small as 5 microns in size ( a human hair is 100 microns in diameter) may be large enough to affect the operation of an ABS modulator. Even so, Chrysler makes no recommendation to replace the fluid."
Ford:
"Ford does not recommend changing DOT 3 fluid or flushing the system. Ford says their recommendation is a "risk versus benefit" assessment because there's a potential for doing more damage than good. If sediment or contamination from the master cylinder is pushed through the ABS unit, it can cause big problems. Flushing the system also increases the risk of air entrapment and leaks, says Ford.
Ford says their brake systems are engineered to tolerate brake fluid contamination of up to 3 percent moisture without fluid boil (which is close to the saturation point for DOT 3 brake fluid). If the fluid has more moisture, it probably has some liquid water in it and should be changed.
Ford said they measured the water content in 7 to 10 year old Ford vehicles and found that the water content was actually quite low: only 1 to 1-1/2 percent. So based on their findings and the design target of 3 percent water, they see no need to change the fluid for preventive maintenance."
Another report states:
"one of the OEMs did a study using test fleets comprised of thousands of vehicles from various locations that were approximately 8 years old. They tested the brake fluid for moisture and discovered an average of less than one percent over the entire fleet. They said improved master cylinder reservoir design, brake fluid and brake hose
materials significantly reduced moisture related problems with brake fluid."
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Changed the fluid on mine
50k and 5 years. The old came out as clean as that which went in.
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Let the bleedin bleeders bleed the bleedin bleeder !
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What I would like to know (cooee swiss t) is do garages drain the brake fluid at each of the 4 wheel cylinders like wot it should be done when carrying out a brake fluid change?
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>> What I would like to know (cooee swiss t) is do garages drain the brake
>> fluid at each of the 4 wheel cylinders like wot it should be done when
>> carrying out a brake fluid change?
>>
Yes.
On some cars, eg Mercs with SBC, the bleeding is done with the use of the STAR machine (diagnostic lappy).
Its a fairly complex job.
In fact our local indy sends all his SBC cars to us for the bleeding process (I mean of course the process of bleeding..... not....... well you know wot I mean!!!!!)
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>>do garages drain the brake
>> fluid at each of the 4 wheel cylinders like wot it should be done when
>> carrying out a brake fluid change?
I used to, and still do the job properly.
But, I know that some would just let fluid out of the OSF caliper, and then top up the reservoir so that the fluid in the reservoir looked clean. The unused brake fluid, paid for by the customer, would then be sold off by the mechanics involved.
Incidentally, letting gravity do the job is the best way to fit the fluid change into a service routine without it costing any significant time. While you're changing the plugs, and doing the air filter, checking tyres, etc., it's just a case of keeping an eye on the reservoir and topping up as required. In this way, I found it simple to make 0.2 bonus on a 0.3 job!
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>>But, I know that some would just let fluid out of the OSF caliper, and then top up the reservoir so that the fluid in the reservoir looked clean. The unused brake fluid, paid for by the customer, would then be sold off by the mechanics involved<<
Now why doesn't that surprise me, I don't suppose a main dealer would cut corners & pocket the wonga though :}
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This was in a main dealer! The staff in the office knew nothing of it - nor did those in the stores (they would have wanted a cut of the proceeds).
There were a number of fiddles running, which I didn't get involved in, but, I did keep my mouth shut.
By contrast, the other workshops I've worked in were run by members of my family, and these were absolutely straight.
Last edited by: Number_Cruncher on Wed 4 Apr 12 at 20:19
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>>This was in a main dealer! The staff in the office knew nothing of it - nor did those in the stores (they would have wanted a cut of the proceeds)<<
Sounds like my Mitsubishi dealer in Falmouth = brake cleaner + engine flush + fuel treatment additive stuck on the bill.
They must think I'm barking!
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>> Now why doesn't that surprise me, I don't suppose a main dealer would cut corners
>> & pocket the wonga though :}
>>
Don't you believe it. A main dealer tried that on me, (not with brake fluid) and failed big time, and it cost them.
Many would not have spotted the rip off.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 5 Apr 12 at 11:43
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>>
>> Another report states:
>> "one of the OEMs did a study using test fleets comprised of thousands of vehicles
>> from various locations that were approximately 8 years old. They tested the brake fluid for
>> moisture and discovered an average of less than one percent over the entire fleet. They
>> said improved master cylinder reservoir design, brake fluid and brake hose
>> materials significantly reduced moisture related problems with brake fluid."
>>
So two year fluid changes is basically just a money making scam playing the safety card. What a surprise......not.
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Every Ford service I've had from new has ALWAYS recommended a brake fluid change every 2 years.
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In the USA, the "Big 3" domestic OEM manufacturers say that the brake fluid in their vehicles lasts the life of the vehicle.
If the brakes stop working because the fluid hasn't been changed, isn't that likely to determine the life of the vehicle?
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>> If the brakes stop working because the fluid hasn't been changed, isn't that likely to
>> determine the life of the vehicle?
Not to mention its occupants.
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I was a passenger in an old Jag E-Type convertible when the fluid boiled.
We stopped, had a glass of shandy, allowed the others in the beer garden to admire the car for 10 or 15 minutes and pressed on.
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>> In the USA, the "Big 3" domestic OEM manufacturers say that the brake fluid in
>> their vehicles lasts the life of the vehicle:
>>
>> www.aa1car.com/library/procut02.htm
>>
>> www.aa1car.com/library/procut3b.htm
>>
Another article on the same website explains why it should be changed: www.aa1car.com/library/bfluid.htm
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>> Another article on the same website explains why it should be changed: www.aa1car.com/library/bfluid.htm
what a stupid stupid stupid article.
Did you know that nearly half of all motorists in a recent Car Care Council survey said brake failure was their number one fear amongst driving emergencies?
So consider this: After three years of service, the average boiling point of the brake fluid has dropped to a potentially dangerous level because of moisture contamination and may not meet minimum federal requirements for brake fluid.
Probably half of all cars and light trucks that are 10 or more years old in the U.S. have never had their brake fluid changed.
So despite it being the number one fear, despite fluid being at potentially dangerous, 50% of all cars and trucks have never had it changed AND NEVER HAD BRAKE FAILURE.
I have driven over 700k miles, never had brake fluid changed and never had a brake failure because of it. Ok I changed the fluid on the lancer recently at 5 years and 50k. I only did that because people say "ooo look at the crud that comes out out" So i wanted to see - Well none did. It looked like new.
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Happened to me once....old car, not used much, and one of the rears was binding a bit. The feeling of pedal to the floor as you are bowling up to a roundabout certainly concentrates the mind!
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>> Happened to me once....old car, not used much, and one of the rears was binding
>> a bit. The feeling of pedal to the floor as you are bowling up to
>> a roundabout certainly concentrates the mind!
Ditto! In my case it was a front calliper.
I've never heard of it happening in the last twenty years or so. Perhaps the fluid's changed enough to prevent it? We're on Dot4 now, I can't remember what it was then.
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>> I wouldn't do business with a dealer which used expressions such as "a load of
>> crap".
I suspect they're Rattle's words, not how the garage would phrase it.
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>> >> I wouldn't do business with a dealer which used expressions such as "a load
>> of
>> >> crap".
>>
>> I suspect they're Rattle's words, not how the garage would phrase it.
>>
You may be right, but I take people at their word rather than put my own interpretation on what they've written.
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They are my words watered down to avoid the swear filter some what. What I was actually going to say is a word which is used in the name of a Sex Pistols album :p.
That said it is rare to to go to a garage or see a builder without hearing the word F every few seconds.
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>> That said it is rare to to go to a garage ............
>> without hearing the word F every few seconds.
>>
I've been going to franchised dealers since I bought my first new car in 1965 and I've yet to hear a swear word, or even a word that could be described as coarse.
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>> >> That said it is rare to to go to a garage ............
>> >> without hearing the word F every few seconds.
>> >>
>>
>> I've been going to franchised dealers since I bought my first new car in 1965
>> and I've yet to hear a swear word, or even a word that could be
>> described as coarse.
>>
I would get dragged in the office is any customer heard me swear.
Now - in the workshop away from customers..........
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>> That said it is rare to to go to a garage or see a builder
>> without hearing the word F every few seconds.
>>
Well.... there is a lot of money to be made when Finance is included.......
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>> >> That said it is rare to to go to a garage or see a
>> builder
>> >> without hearing the word F every few seconds.
>> >>
>>
>> Well.... there is a lot of money to be made when Finance is included.......
>>
I thought he meant Ford...
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>>
>> I thought he meant Ford...
>>
No, I think it was Fiat.
Ford = Fix Or Repair Daily
Fiat = Fix It Again Tomorrow.
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>> That said it is rare to to go to a garage or see a builder
>> without hearing the word F every few seconds.
Really? I think it depends on the quality of the garages or builders you are frequenting.
You want to be more worried when you hear in the workshop the repeated sound of a large lump hammer against metal accompanied by a cheery whistling to lull you into a false sense of security :}
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To be fair the people who ran the builders were well spoken and professional but the actual tradesmen the language they used with each other can best be described as well swearing.
I haven't actually heard a mean dealer swear but certainly its common in back street garages.
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Interesting to see the comments from US manufactuers about not changing the fluid.
I recall reading an article many years ago where Ford stated that even in endurance testing, brake fluid never reached even the reduced boiling point of contaminated fluid.
I also recall reading recently of a Honda CRV having stuck calipers at, I think 6 years old. When the old ones were removed there was sediment in them and that was put down to never having the brake fluid changed.
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>> the actual tradesmen the language they used with each other can best be described as well swearing.
>> I haven't actually heard a mean dealer swear but certainly its common in back street garages.
OFFS Sheikha... tradesmen schmadesmen. The punters are far worse especially the posh ones.
Builders and main dealers don't swear in front of the punters. And when the punters swear at them they often get all hoity-toity.
Jumped-up gits.
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I've no doubt about that. But I have memories of me coming back from garages with my mum and then getting told for repeating what the mechanic had said. One such quote which got me into lot of trouble was "he said the points were knackered".
I myself swear a lot in the pub after I have had a few mainly when ranting about something but I never swear in very day language.
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I have noticed that since retiring that my use of explicit swearwords has increased. However I would justify it on the grounds that the words are carefully chosen to fit the circumstances and audience.
Is this a case of late onset Turettes or just grumpy old man syndrome:)
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>> I myself swear a lot in the pub .........
Most of the customers are probably just wanting to have an enjoyable night out, and don't want to have to listen to other people swearing.
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Meanwhile, back on subject -
the coolant in recent FIAT's is OAT (the pink stuff) and is long life: PARAFLU UP (Ultra Protection!)
The Feb 2010 handbook for my Punto includes the Panda, and there is no mention of changing the coolant in the 108K miles mapped out there.
I've searched and can't find a specified life for it, but I suspect it is probably 10 years (and therefore off the end of the service schedule).
Either way, I wouldn't let them change it even if you are determined to make life difficult for yourself - a poorly bled cooling system after a coolant change was the death of many a head gasket on the "FIRE" engine used in Puntos and Pandas.
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Brake fluid, speak plugs and cheeky dealers - R.P.
