Ongoing debate regarding the threat of a possible fuel strike
Volume 1
Volume 2
Last edited by: R.P. on Sat 7 Apr 12 at 10:02
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RP just beat me to it.
In response to a post towards the end of Volume 2:
"There are too many union bashing right wingers on here...
"...God forbid if I had to work for some of you on here...
"...I'll don the flak jacket, tin hat, bale out and wave cheerio."
Is that a flounce? Someone has upset Mr Ecs. Actually, I thought he was made of sterner stuff.
Last edited by: R.P. on Fri 30 Mar 12 at 17:58
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Unions only exist to provide power, jobs and some of political influence for the union leadership. they have, almost universally in modern times, only achieved huge job losses and company liquidations.
As seen by three classic examples:
Arthur Scargill - who warned his members that the Tories were out to close pits and then worked very hard to help them do so.
and
A certain Mr Robinson of British Leyland who worked hard to cause as many strikes as possible to "help his members". He succeeded in helping them sign on for the dole.
and
SOGAT and other print unions who refused to modernise withe the result they effectiively destroyed their own unions.
For a more up to date example.. see Unite. McCluskie doing his best to make union membership unpopular with the greater public
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if it wasnt for the unions half the unwashed masses would be on £2.00 an hour if they were lucky!
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>> if it wasnt for the unions half the unwashed masses would be on £2.00 an
>> hour if they were lucky!
Union membership is about 24% and falling. Membership is highest in the less well off areas. Membership is very low int he US, where they have the highest disposable incomes in the world.
I would say its a hinderance based on that.
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>>
>> I would say its a hinderance based on that.
>>
I'd say that all that proves is that people who are well off are less likely to want to complain. A union is basically a group of people with an axe to grind, after all.
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17564277
Fule Drivers hours rules relaxed by Government. There you go, license to print overtime.
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While the comments are true of some unions, not the case with others. I was a member of the union in my job, and apart from being the negotiator in wage settlements, I was personally helped twice in 30 years.
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>>Fuel Drivers hours rules relaxed by Government. There you go, license to print overtime>>
I am going to gloat, I told you!
www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=10055&m=224483
Last edited by: Old Navy on Fri 30 Mar 12 at 16:42
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>>Fuel Drivers hours rules relaxed by Government.
>>
Lets hope the muppets now stop queueing!!
Then I can stop queueing to get by.
Several times today I have wasted time trying to get past filling stations.
One queue I saw ( in the other direction ) was half a mile long.
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>> Lets hope the muppets now stop queueing!!
Stop slagging off the Muppets. I haven't seen Kermit or any of the other Muppets queueing for petrol.
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I saw Kenny Dalglish though. I shouted, "panic buying again are we Kenny?!"
I think there's an Association Football related joke there somewhere.
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>>Fuel Drivers hours rules relaxed by Government. There you go, license to print overtime>>
Yes but surely the drivers will not be prepared to drive extra hours. Their union keep telling us that the dispute is all about safety and not about money. I'm sure they will turn down this opportunity to turn down extra cash as they have our safety at heart.
Last edited by: R.P. on Fri 30 Mar 12 at 18:47
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>> >>Fuel Drivers hours rules relaxed by Government. There you go, license to print overtime>>
>>
>> Yes but surely the drivers will not be prepared to drive extra hours. Their union
>> keep telling us that the dispute is all about safety and not about money. I'm
>> sure they will turn down this opportunity to turn down extra cash as they have
>> our safety at heart.
>>
I sincerely hope that they do. During the bad weather of last year, our company, along with others in the feedstuffs industry, was granted a temporary relaxation on drivers hours rules, but they certainly were not extended to an eleven hour driving day. That was a a real emergency, not topping up the garage forecourts because selfish ignorant numpties thought only of themselves.
It's worth pointing out that the odds of a driver on that sort of work doing more than nine hours driving in a normal twelve hour shift are pretty remote, if one takes into account unloading times and statutory breaks. They would not be permitted to exceed the maximum of a fifteen hour spreadover (total hours at work in one day) in any case.
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>> Union membership is about 24% and falling. Membership is highest in the less well off
>> areas. Membership is very low int he US, where they have the highest disposable incomes
>> in the world.
>>
>> I would say its a hinderance based on that.
A hindrance to what? Rich people getting richer?
For all the wealth it generates, the US still has 40 million people it defines as poor. Poor means for example a family of four on about $22,000 dollars or less per year, in a country without an NHS.
The UK is much wealthier than it was 50 years ago, yet we have significant minorities who are either very rich indeed or dirt poor. It's a scandal, albeit a problem that is difficult to address. History will not be kind to Gordon Brown but he did try to redistribute.
Zookeeper is right, without the union and labour movements it would be a lot worse. Of course strikes can be mutually destructive but you can't extrapolate from Red Robbo. The working man today is almost infinitely better off than he would have been without the contribution of the unions in the past.
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>> Zookeeper is right, without the union and labour movements it would be a lot worse.
I agree.
>>The
>> working man today is almost infinitely better off than he would have been without the
>> contribution of the unions in the past.
>>
Again, I agree.
I'm also an advocate of trade union representation and collective bargaining. My director at my final employer didn't recognise union representation in our division although, of course, we were free to be a member of a trade union. What happened was that the employees who sucked up to the head of their department ~ went for a drink with him at lunch etc ~ were the ones who got promotion and big salary rises. If you didn't suck up it didn't matter how highly qualified you were, or how good you were at your job, or how hard you worked, or how much you contributed to the company's success. If you weren't one of the clan you didn't get anywhere. Fixed job grades and salary scales and collective bargaining would have stopped all that sort of corruption.
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>> I'm also an advocate of trade union representation and collective bargaining. My director at my
>> final employer didn't recognise union representation in our division although, of course, we were free
>> to be a member of a trade union. What happened was that the employees who
>> sucked up to the head of their department ~ went for a drink with him
>> at lunch etc ~ were the ones who got promotion and big salary rises. If
>> you didn't suck up it didn't matter how highly qualified you were, or how good
>> you were at your job, or how hard you worked, or how much you contributed
>> to the company's success. If you weren't one of the clan you didn't get anywhere.
>> Fixed job grades and salary scales and collective bargaining would have stopped all that sort
>> of corruption.
>>
That's normal company hierarchy. If you don't know how to charm and smarm the boss then you get nowhere. Works the same in the playground. If you weren't teacher's pet you didn't get to be a prefect.
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Sorry, my finger twitched and I posted twice by mistake. D'oh.
Last edited by: L'escargot on Sat 31 Mar 12 at 15:40
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>> to be a member of a trade union. What happened was that the employees who
>> sucked up to the head of their department ~ went for a drink with him
>> at lunch etc ~ were the ones who got promotion and big salary rises. If
>> you didn't suck up it didn't matter how highly qualified you were, or how good
>> you were at your job, or how hard you worked, or how much you contributed
>> to the company's success. If you weren't one of the clan you didn't get anywhere.
>> Fixed job grades and salary scales and collective bargaining would have stopped all that sort
>> of corruption.
what a load of rubbish - sounds like sour grapes to me.
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>> Unions only exist to provide power, jobs and some of political influence for the union
>> leadership. they have, almost universally in modern times, only achieved huge job losses and company
>> liquidations.
On one occasion when I started at a new company, membership of an appropriate trade union was a condition of employment. I can see the reasoning behind that. It's far easier to have collective bargaining than to have to discuss salaries with every employee individually. It also means that there is no secrecy or petty jealousy about salaries. In addition it gives employees an incentive to improve themselves so that they can become qualified to be promoted to a higher grade.
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>> It also means that there is no secrecy or petty jealousy about salaries. In addition
>> it gives employees an incentive to improve themselves so that they can become qualified to
>> be promoted to a higher grade.
It does exactly the opposite. It encourages poor lazy sloppy performance. Why work harder or contribute more than your co-worker, when your pay is the same - negotiated on par with the rest of them. Collective bargaining on pay is a disaster for worker performance.
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 31 Mar 12 at 09:43
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WRT something in the previous thread, in a previous company colleagues did some work with one of the "renamed" unions at their HQ - Unison, Unite, somesuch. Story was that there were only a handful of people there (maybe not literally), but the subs from the tens of thousands of people were generating a huge stockpile of cash, as there was little cost to running it (presumably because they don't do much in many cases).
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volume 1 link in O.P. goes to:
www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=9023
Yes - thanks - an error now corrected in both volumes.
Last edited by: R.P. on Fri 30 Mar 12 at 17:58
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The BBC's favourite acronym finally comes out on the news tonight - COBRA !
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Attended one of our cars this afternoon. The fuel card had gone missing and the last user left it back in it's bay with the petrol warning light already on.
Control asked me to go and fill it up on my card so they could get it back on hire, I took a gallon with me as a precaution. Hardly any filling stations now near the city centre so , after trying 8 on the various main roads I came across a Texaco several miles away with 4 or 5 cars waiting.
I got my turn and filled her up...£49 worth of juice in a Fiat 500 ! Must have been running on fumes from the traffic in front !
I can see we might have problems here this weekend as the fleet runs low..
Ted
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Further to this, posted in volume 2;
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-17525461
I'm tempted to quote Christine Keeler.... "Well he would say that, wouldn't he?"
I'm sure any driver who's worked in general haulage would read that report though gritted teeth. Two o'clock starts? Not unusual, ask your friendly milk tanker driver. One weekend off every 14? My son's a chef, he'd think that was generous!
My wife drives a bus; she's not allowed to leave that unattended either. And that carp about never getting away from the job; it doesn't stop the driver going into a transport cafe for his dinner, although on £45K a year I'd suspect they might find that a bit beneath them. The remark about brain surgeons shows how out of touch they are with public opinion; it's actually offensive to other drivers whose jobs demand equal if not higher levels of skill than trundling from refineries to garage forecourts.
The bottom line of this is that after donkeys years of having it all their own way, these drivers are finally having to justify their earnings. As I've said before I do not begrudge them earning a decent living, I simply resent their attitude that it's a God-given right.
Last edited by: Harleyman on Fri 30 Mar 12 at 23:42
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I whole heartedly agree with HM, that report alone will serve to push the gap even wider and lose any support from the other 90% of drivers in the industry.
One weekend off every 14?
That means they work a rolling 4 day week, of 10 hour days.
The fact the 'sometimes' don't get back until 2pm, means a 12 hour shift has earned them 2 hours of overtime that day.
I was training yesterday and didn't hear any news, but if what I've read on here this morning is correct that the drivers hours rules have been 'relaxed' for them, then it makes a complete mockery that this is all about health and safety.
Off to work now to have the drivers I lectured yesterday about going 2 minutes over their legal time, and explaining how serious it can be and the WOULD be prosecuted for it, ask me how come a tanker driver is safe to do it.
There's compliance for you...words fail me.
Pat
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Excellent posts Pat and HM
Phil
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>>
>>
>> I'm tempted to quote Christine Keeler.... "Well he would say that, wouldn't he?"
>>
>>
>>
>>
It was Mandy Rice-Davies actually.
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Whoever said it, they were right :)
Look forward to tanker drivers refusing overtime meaning we get a shortage without a strike following the nationwide panic attack this week. Also look forward to flying pigs.....
The union have suceeded in making everyone aware of how well their members are already doing, thus reducing their support among the wider populace. A stroke of absolute genius!
Drivers led by dinosaurs.....its a shame because as much good as the unons have ever done is being rapidly undone by the current crop of belligerent blowhards shouting strike every five minutes.
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I think that I'll be looking forward, now, to the Olympics but not for their content but for the chaos that undoubtedly will surround this event which will include all manner of striking bodies and services - great fun, I think.
I won't be watching this event as it has been a terrible waste of money.
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"Drivers led by dinosaurs.....its a shame because as much good as the unons have ever done is being rapidly undone by the current crop of belligerent blowhards shouting strike every five minutes"
Some of the leaders are obviously following the manual written by Arthur Scargill "how to forecast disaster for your industry - and an action plan to follow to achieve it"
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>> Drivers led by dinosaurs.....its a shame because as much good as the unons have ever
>> done is being rapidly undone by the current crop of belligerent blowhards shouting strike every
>> five minutes.
But that's always been the line on union leaders hasn't it? In my youth the bogey men were Jack Jones, Hughie Scanlan, Clive Jenkins etc.
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Jack Jones, Hughie Scanlan, Clive Jenkins etc.
These under-achievers managed to do more damage to UK industry than Maggie Thatcher could ever have.
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In 1986/87/88 there was talk of a Ford Electronics factory in Dundee (unemployment blackspot then & NOW)
Unions actively campaigned against "low pay assembly" - the factory went to Spain and at one point employed 8,000....................
The Electronic industry in Scotland was booming then - IBM factory making PCs, NCR Dundee making Cash machines, Burrough Cumbernauld (Smallsystems), DEC Ayr , Apricot (Glenrothes) - all gone in manufacturing but some exist with call centres/ R&D employing a few thousand as against many tens of thousands directly and 2-3 x that number in suppliers.
8,000 Ford jobs in Dundee would have made them a HUGE benefactor to the city even if some were "minimum wage".
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Here in Yorkshire Hull we should have had the Nissan car factory.It never came due to the poor infrastructure and acces to the Docks.Thousand of jobs lost in a deprived area.The road system has still not been sorted out and this was under Tories and Labour governments who won't spend the money for this project.The Humber toll bridge are lowered and the hope is this will increase trade.I am not sure yet wait and see.Siemens is the hope now building windmills,but finding the right people with engineering skills won't be easy.So Siemens will have to start a apprentice scheme which has been neglected by governments to bring people up to a certain skill level.The problem is that once you get into the blame game nobody wins.Of course there are union leaders who are rubbish but I have said before so are plenty of managers who are on a power trip.We need good engineers, people with manual skills plumbers electricians.We've had enough marketing people bankers economist who we have to listen to and their twaddle.
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I have a simple rule of thumb about assessing whether political parties or trade unions work.
Look long term.
Areas with high trade unionism vote Labour.
Areas of high unemployment used to be hotbeds of trade unionism.
And what does that achieve in the next 40 years?
Either non union factories or unemployment.
See Sunderland
See Glasgow
See Longbridge.
See most of inner London
See Liverpool...(except there they started to vote Liberal and things improved).
Note: my comments only refer to the UK where British Trade Unions do not believe in wealth generation .
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The logic of the madhouse from madf!
Do you think you might be confusing cause and effect? Areas of high unemployment used to be hotbeds of manual labour that can be done more competitively in much lower wage economies - why does Apple manufacture in China? It wasn't unions that caused James Dyson to move production to the far east.
I think you could have an interesting debate about whether strikes should be legal at all in relation to pay negotiations when there is a legislated minimum wage; but to blame unions for the decline of old industries is not credible. Even BL was driven into the ground by the management, not the unions.
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>> wage economies - why does Apple manufacture in China? It wasn't unions that caused James
>> Dyson to move production to the far east.
It helped - Quote
"Dyson said he had seen too many occasions where unions did not act in everyone's interests. "I don't think trade unions have been helpful because they show things as divisive. As a modern employer you have to treat people well."
. Even BL was driven
>> into the ground by the management, not the unions.
Management and unions. There is no denying that the unions were a considerable help in destroying BL.
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It is working well in Germany where Unions are very strong and work together with management.There they have workscouncils where unions are part of management decision making.This us and them is never going to work and everybody loses out.We should all be buying more British made goods if they are available and not always what is cheap.
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>>We should all be buying more British made goods if they are available and not always what is cheap.
>>
In an ideal world maybe, unfortunately humans are greedy and selfish by nature. Panic buying anyone?
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"but to blame unions for the decline of old industries is not credible. Even BL was driven into the ground by the management, not the unions."
I quote:
the NUM under Scargill
SOGAT and ALL the print unions.
who were or are responsible in large part for destroying their own industries..
and never read "Working for Ford" which tells the story of a left wing agitator whose aim in life was to cause strikes..
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Indeed, Dutchie,and the arrangements were set up immediately post-war, by.....a UK trade unionist, Vic Feather. Included worker representation etc, and the system seems to have had beneficial results. Now in contrast in the UK certain unions became heavily infiltrated by marxists and further left elements. Co-operation in the joint interests of workers and the company became impossible - but then UK unions were not dealing with German businessmen! I know from my father who visited many German businesses post-war (winkling out the Nazi remnants) that the attitude, in his experience, was markedly different to the UK. Managers and directors actually were seen on the shop floor and talked to the workers, without awkwardness or condescension. BTW, my father was a fluent speaker of German, to the extent they very often thought he was German.
I doubt that there is any fundamental reason for trade unions per se to be a cause of decline, as some loudly proclaim on here, but there are local habits and assumptions that come into play. The Germans got the Marshall plan: we still have the corrosive class system!
Last edited by: NIL on Sat 31 Mar 12 at 15:55
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"he Germans got the Marshall plan: we still have the corrosive class system!"
In your mind perhaps..
I don't see many hereditary Lords running companies
Last edited by: madf on Sat 31 Mar 12 at 16:00
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>> I don't see many hereditary Lords running companies
>>
The classes concerned are white collar and blue collar. Them and Us. Separate lives down to segregated dining rooms including facilities for the directors that likely ran to something similar to a gentleman's club.
In Germany they'd all be in the same canteen and with workers council's represented on the board.
James Hamilton-Paterson's 'Empire of the Clouds' describes the same set up's corrosive influence on Britain's post war aviation industry.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 31 Mar 12 at 17:02
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when you mentioned that brompt my first thought was of that book and that story of the 3 hour lunches at bristol. Good book as well for anyone into that sort of thing.
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Have you an ISBN number for that title?
TIA Phil I
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978-0-571-24795-0 (paperback version - apparently the Hardback version has better photos and is available for 5.30 from Play.com)
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Much obliged kind sir.
Phil I
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Absence of landed gentry et al from industry is not evidence of the lack of a class system, and it's baggage.
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Some people have class I wish I had.>:) Class has no money label.I have nothing against landed gentry or ladys.Beats Philip Green any time.>:)
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You've got class Dutchie.
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Having real class means that you don't look down your nose at other people.
:<}
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Panic ye not.
"Unite has ruled out strikes over Easter and its driver members, who deliver fuel for 90% of the UK's petrol stations, cannot launch lightning strikes because of laws forbidding walkouts at less then seven days' notice."
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But on the other hand just heard on the radio that despite queues easing many petrol stations throughout the country are running out or have run out of at least one type of fuel.
PANIC!
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If you have a diesel, buy a 2nd car - petrol Or v Versa.
Job sorted. :-)
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We should all buy electric vehicles and tell em to stick their hydrocarbons up their Khyber Pass!
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Buy a horse and cart Dog make some money on the side.>:0
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Tried that in the 60's Dutchie (not my orse though) Totting: www.youtube.com/watch?v=uduYAFXjBaM
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I have some figures for you about actual tanker drivers pay as i didn't believe this £45k+ OT figure being talked of, and no one else has come up with anything so here we are.
I have been involved in discussions in a truckers forum re the tanker drivers dispute, and one of the fuel tanker drivers has publicly posted his pay slip for perusal, to dispel this £45k myth.
Monthly paid.
Basic £2301.
Overtime £783.
Thats it.
The driver has also spoken of his shift patterns which are frankly dreadful and i would not want them, if i was doing those shifts (which i wouldn't consider under £50k) i'd be on considerably more at my present place.
5am or 5pm starts.
work mon tue wed days.
off thur.
work fri sat sun mon nights.
off tues(after finish) wed.
work thu fri sat sun days.
off mon.
work tue wed thur nights.
off rest of fri sat sun.
restart shift rota the following monday morn.
Lazy blighter.;), i wonder how he's going to get the hours in to boost that £35k wage up to £45 PLUS overtime that has been bandied about here.
How many of you would/could work those frankly horrible shift patterns, how many of you could cope with the short breaks then go back on alternate nights/days, would you do it for the money he's getting year in year out, be truthful here.
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It happens quite a bit in industrial disputes GB, find out the highest anyone in any industry add a bit then say that is the norm.
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I accept and expect that Sooty, just annoys me when figures are plucked from the air and if bandied about often enough gain acceptance, even become the norm.
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Assume these are pre tax figures GB, yes? Basic is about average pay if so, doesn't seem much for the hours, responsibility etc
Lot also depends on what pension etc has to come off that
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>> Assume these are pre tax figures GB, yes?
Yes top lines.
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I have done a shift pattern most of my working live.12 hr shifts on Tugs sometimes quite more often very busy.BP we used to have the quick changeovers,finish nightshift back at work in the afternoon for 8 hrs.Last job twenty four hr call for two weeks then one week off.Shift work is never good for anybody's health.
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>> How many of you would/could work those frankly horrible shift patterns, how many of you could cope with the short breaks then go back on alternate nights/days, would you do it for the money he's getting year in year out, be truthful here. >>
Taking those figures at face value as being true for all or most tanker drivers, then answer these questions, now be truthful here:
1. if it is so bad, why are the working for those mean employers?
2. if it is not increased wages they are after, then why does it matter whether they get paid £36,000 in your example or the £45,000 figure used by the media?
3. if the employees have a right to withdraw their labour, shouldn't the employers have the right to recruit drivers who want to work under the present slave-wages and t&c?
4. should the tanker-owners form a union and then jointly withdraw using their tankers because they are not happy with the contracts they willingly signed with the fuel owners?
5. should service station owners/cashiers form a union and then jointly ban supplying fuel to the public because the margin(for the owner) and pay (for the garage cashier) is abysmally low?
etc. etc.
Unite's assistant general secretary Diana Holland said:
"The people that are on the best conditions, the best rates of pay and the best training - we want to keep that for them.
"We want to put a floor in, under which no-one can fall. When the contract negotiations take place, we want the oil companies, the retailers, and the distribution companies to say no-one will fall below this standard."
Last edited by: John H on Mon 2 Apr 12 at 15:03
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John H, much of your post is not in context but i'll have a go at answering, which you failed to do.
1. presumably that is as much as they can presently earn in their area of work, in both senses of the term
2. Seeing as it doesn't matter apparently, then presumably you won't mind their money being increased to the higher amount....not an answer but then you didn't ask a question
3. They do have the right to recruit at the present wage structure, they already do so, the present t & c is what the dispute is about as i understand it
4. i have no idea what sort of cartels the tanker owners operate in conjunction with the fuel companies so can't really answer that, if i could i would
5. they don't need to form a union to go bust but nothing to stop them i suppose, if there isn't enough profit in fuel and other sales they will go out of business, as has been happening since the supermarkets got in on the act, was that wrong?, isn't there a union of sorts for petrol retailers anyway, or would you prefer they started another one
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Mon 2 Apr 12 at 15:16
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If you had bothered to click on my link in Vol 1, you would have found that Unite themselves quote
>>That dispute was sparked by
proposals to:
– cut pay by 20%, which is a drop of
about £9,000-9,500
– replace the 4 week redundancy
package with inferior statutory
provision.
– replace the sickness schemes with
inferior statutory provision.
– close final salary pension to 70
workers presently in it, moving
them to the inferior money
purchase scheme.<<
Now my maths may not be as good as many on here but if 20% of a tanker drivers wages is as stated by Unite £9,000-£9,500 then I make it around £47,000.
Can someone confirm that for me please?
Pat
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>> 2. Seeing as it doesn't matter apparently, then presumably you won't mind their money being increased to the higher amount....not an answer but then you didn't ask a question >>
But they are not asking for more money, are they?
As I said, if they are unhappy, they can get off their tankers, get on their human energy fuelled bikes and find another job. They only need to give notice of one month and they can ditch their contract and stuff their slave jobs. The employers cannot do likewise, unfortunately, because of Labour Laws.
Some more out of context stuff:
The Hoyer Group makes return on turnover of 3.1 percent (before taxes and excluding special items).
Wincanton have an underlying operating profit margin of 2.4%.
Turners (Soham) Ltd. employs over 1700 people, average wage exceeding £28,000 pa.
>> Now my maths may not be as good as many on here but if 20% of a tanker drivers wages is as stated by Unite £9,000-£9,500 then I make it around £47,000.
Can someone confirm that for me please? >>
if 20% = £9,000, then 100% = £45,000
if 20% = £9,500, then 100% = £47,500
Last edited by: John H on Mon 2 Apr 12 at 15:39
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>> But they are not asking for more money, are they?
>>
No as i understand it the employer is trying to cut the salaries and alter the terms and conditions, if they were left alone to get on with their jobs this dispute wouldn't be happening
>> The Hoyer Group makes return on turnover of 3.1 percent (before taxes and excluding special
>> items).
>> Wincanton have an underlying operating profit margin of 2.4%.
>> Turners (Soham) Ltd. employs over 1700 people, average wage exceeding £28,000 pa.
>>
Maybe Wincanton and Hoyer should improve the management of their contracts then, if the job doesn't pay why do they do it.
So Turners pay an average of £28k, did you happen to notice how many hours were worked in this mediocre top line and how many weekends (and night out subsistences) included?
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>>Monthly paid.
Basic £2301.
Overtime £783.
Thats it.
<<
I've just had a look at the wage slip posted GB, how do you know that's it?
That's all he's chosen to show.....nothing more under that can be seen such as shift premiums and bonuses.
I also note the many other tanker drivers who frequent Trucknet are remaining silent on that thread;)
Pat
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>> I've just had a look at the wage slip posted GB, how do you know
>> that's it?
>>
>> That's all he's chosen to show.....nothing more under that can be seen such as shift
>> premiums and bonuses.
>>
>> I also note the many other tanker drivers who frequent Trucknet are remaining silent on
>> that thread;)
because the deductions run virtually to the pound the same as mine for a similar top line.
You know as well as i do that in the broad spectrum of companies operating that there will be some worse off than he and some (few now) who work directly for the oil companies and still on original contracts will be better off.
the company concerned will IMO being around the mid point judging from mky knowledge of other tanker contracts, but they do expect a lot of hours from their drivers for the money, no 37 or 40 hour weeks there.
Would you care to produce some more details of the £45k salaries plus overtime mentioned earlier, who is paying that and for what hours etc, compare with this partiular chap.
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I don't feel I need to GB, since Unite have quoted those figures on their leaflet.
I can't see them quoting an OTT figure in these circumstances, can you?
Surely they would realise if they quote a loss of 20% most of us would just times that by 5 and arrive at the gross amount....or are they really that stupid?
Unite say it is Wincanton, I believe.
Hoyer were on £38000 during the last tanker strike started at Ince by the farmer.
Pat
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>> Hoyer were on £38000 during the last tanker strike started at Ince by the farmer.
Again, that means not a lot as a figure, is it 40 hour salaried, 37.5 hour basic, top line for the highest paid driver in the company cramming in every extra shift and hour he can manage?
So with no evidence of £45k+ overtime salaries then, i as before do not believe it.
I've worked on well paid truck jobs for many years, i know how the pay is made up in a comparable sector, they do not throw £45k at you to sit in Jacks Hill Cafe for hours on end making your time up.
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>>So with no evidence of £45k+ overtime salaries then, i as before do not believe it<<
So you don't believe the words of your Unite union you value so highly?
Could they be lying shysters who spout a load of bullsh*t:)
They quoted those figures not me GB, but there's none so blind as those who don't want to see.
Pat
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>> So you don't believe the words of your Unite union you value so highly?
>>
Unite union is only as good as its members and the shop stewards they elect, a union is not the force, it is the members standing together that IS the union.
I am a member, for the simple reason that there isn't a drivers only union.
Seeing how many drivers can't stick together to save their very livelihoods, as evidenced here by the politics and water muddying of envy, there never will be a drivers only union in this country, and i forsee constant undermining of the industry until such time as the very bottom is reached, and we aren't half way there yet.
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Then you must have had a copy of this leaflet tinyurl.com/728g9xx
How do you justify their own figures on page 3 on the right hand side?
Slating drivers in general doesn't deflect from the facts GB.
Pat
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>> >> I've just had a look at the wage slip posted GB, ...........
I'd like to see this payslip so that I can run my calculator over it. Where can I find this payslip?
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Basic Pay £2301.60
O/Time £783.20
Tax Code 757L £520.60
NI Code A Contracted In £315.94
It's only a shot of the upper half of the wage slip and no other information is given L'es.
Hope you can make it right then Ian can get on to HMRC for a reduction;)
Pat
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>> Basic Pay £2301.60
>> O/Time £783.20
>>
>> Tax Code 757L £520.60
>> NI Code A Contracted In £315.94
This calculator gives approximately the same tax and National Insurance, if you assume a "bonus" in that particular month of £194. I didn't include any pension contribution. We obviously don't know all ther facts.
tinyurl.com/hcqbf
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>> tinyurl.com/hcqbf
I should have given this link as well. tinyurl.com/bw5cdo9
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>> I should have given this link as well. tinyurl.com/bw5cdo9
Much of that link will be redundant soon for those of a certain age.
Last edited by: Clk Sec on Tue 3 Apr 12 at 11:21
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>> >> I should have given this link as well. tinyurl.com/bw5cdo9
>>
>> Much of that link will be redundant soon for those of a certain age.
I try to keep up with these matters, so I'd be grateful if you could tell me which age group you mean and which parts of the link will soon be redundant for them.
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>> I should have given this link as well. tinyurl.com/bw5cdo9
>> Much of that link will be redundant soon for those of a certain age.
>> I try to keep up with these matters, so I'd be grateful if you could
>> tell me which age group you mean and which parts of the link will soon
>> be redundant for them.
I'm referring to age related allowances that Pastyman is withdrawing for those over 65.
Not really applicable to this thread, but I just couldn't resist it!
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>> I'm referring to age related allowances that Pastyman is withdrawing for those over 65. >>
That must be a different Pastyman to the one that set the Budget this year. The one I know about is not withdrawing age related allowances.
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>> I'm referring to age related allowances that Pastyman is withdrawing for those over 65.
>> That must be a different Pastyman to the one that set the Budget this year.
>> The one I know about is not withdrawing age related allowances.
Well, I believe my Pastyman will be freezing the age related allowances for some, and withdrawing them for others.
Not sure about yours.
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>> Not sure about yours.
>>
Mine has no proposals which justify your claim "Much of that link will be redundant soon for those of a certain age."
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>> So Turners pay an average of £28k, did you happen to notice how many hours
>> were worked in this mediocre top line and how many weekends (and night out
>> subsistences) included?
>>
Turners figures are from TUC for 2010.
The average is for all employees from the lowest paid cleaners to the highest paid tanker drivers, and includes part-timers, but excludes Directors.
TUC say: "if the company has a lot of part time workers, the average pay per employee as listed here will be lower, even though average full time rates may actually be much higher."
* In 2012, Turners website states "Turners are an independent, privately owned company employing in excess of 2000 colleagues who are recognised as a key ingredient to the business success and growth. Experienced, proactive management and staff are responsible for operating over 1000 vehicles and 1400 trailers from 32 locations."
Last edited by: John H on Mon 2 Apr 12 at 16:21
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So stating the average pay at Turners means nothing in real terms, it gives no indication of hours shifts anything worthwhile, its just a number.
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>> So stating the average pay at Turners means nothing in real terms, it gives no
>> indication of hours shifts anything worthwhile, its just a number.
>>
>>
Just like everything else on this thread, it means nothing.
>> Maybe Wincanton and Hoyer should improve the management of their contracts then, if the job doesn't pay why do they do it. >>
Because they take risks. If they worked like Unions, there would be no companies. It is surprising as it is, with oppressive Labour Laws that employers have to comply with, that so many industries are still left in Britain. But the trend is to move abroad, and even some very high-tech industries are preparing to follow in the footsteps of Dyson.
Unions like Unite, demanding permanent guaranteed t&c - such as final-salary scheme pensions - for the tanker drivers, belong in the dinosaur age.
Last edited by: John H on Mon 2 Apr 12 at 16:37
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I am surprised this cliphsa not been replayed
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-16193212
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Just filled the CC3 which proved to be not quite as straightforward as I'd hoped.
No fuel at High Brough Moor, near Scotch Corner on the A1(M), no diesel at my next option, the Jet station just off the A1(M) at Aycliffe.
No queues and all fuels available at Shell at Carrville, Durham City, although some of the pumps were dry.
They also had three Creme Eggs for a quid, so all's well that ends well.
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Sounds like a really good deal that iffy, well worth the hunt !
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...Sounds like a really good deal that iffy, well worth the hunt !...
And like most Shell stations around here, the fuel is as cheap as any.
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I tend to use them - I have their loyalty card which is worth something and the Shell owned sites are as cheap as the Supermarkets plus it's my usual source of 98 RON fuel for the bike.
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Monthly paid.
Basic £2301.
Overtime £783.
Thats it.
I've seen that as well, and noticed how much income tax is paid by the driver in question.
On my rough calculations, either theres around eight hundred quid missing from what we've been shown, or he needs to see his payrolll department because he's over contributing to HMRC.
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>> I've seen that as well, and noticed how much income tax is paid by the
>> driver in question.
My monthly salary is within a whisker of the figures in question, my deductions are too.
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Same tax code (within 10) as Ian but the figures still don't add up.
Neither does the NI contributions.
Pat
Last edited by: pda on Tue 3 Apr 12 at 08:19
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I could have bought fuel at any of the service stations between J16 on the M6 and J21 of the M5 yesterday in either direction. It was available and without queues in Cheddar and Wells. Eventually, last night, I filled up from more or less empty at Morrisons in Nantwich. Every pump working and only a couple of other vehicles on the forecourt.
Seems, for now anyway, to have calmed down a bit. Lets hope it stays that way.
Most roads I used were very quiet yesterday too as it happens. School holiday effect I suppose.
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>>queues in >Cheddar<<
Where's he gorn I wonder?
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Nipped into Sainsbury's for a few bits and noticed the filling station forecourt was empty. I asked security at the door if it was shut and he said it had been like that all morning.
I suppose no-one's got any space left to put the stuff.
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>> >>queues in >Cheddar<<
>>
>> Where's he gorn I wonder?
>>
He probably got cheesed off with Car4play.
;-)
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>> Where's he gorn I wonder?
>>
Gorn in the Cheddar Gorge
www.trekp.com/posters/gw066-gorn.jpg
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BP station out of unleaded this morning also short on diesel.Got a paper, lady behind the till said tanker arriving this afternoon.
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Fuel Tanker Drivers' Strike. Volume 3 - FocalPoint
