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The travel section of my Sunday paper reports a money making and increasing scam re car hire fuel. Instead of the old and familiar "Collect Full and Return Full" a change is being made so that it is "Pick up Full and Return Empty" This is obviously less convenient but figures are quoted for a hirer being required to pay £77 for a tank of fuel he could buy at the nearest garage for £49. Rampant in Spain and spreading to Cyprus, Italy and Portugal. Big car hire names to avoid are Hertz and Europcar, apparently
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Hired a car recently in La Palma for £230 for 14 days including full no xs insurance. Was simply told to restore fuel level on return to where it was when I picked it up - around half full.
I always try to use a small local firm rather than the big boys.
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>> Big car hire names to
>> avoid are Hertz and Europcar, apparently
Not at all. Hired from Hertz in Italy last September. I was given the option to pre pay fuel (quite cheap), or supply my own. I chose the latter. It was supplied full, it was given back full (they even put on the map where to buy cheap fuel just before the Airport) and I was charged nowt by Hertz.
Scam? no just stupid lazy careless renters.
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I looked into hiring a car from Palma airport for a recent holiday as an alternative to a taxi or other transfer, but rejected the idea because of this.
Another scam that cropped up was the deduction of 600 to 800 Euros from your credit card when you collected the car. This was to cover possible damage when the car was returned. It would be refunded if no damage was found - as if!
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>> Another scam that cropped up was the deduction of 600 to 800 Euros from your
>> credit card when you collected the car. This was to cover possible damage when the
>> car was returned. It would be refunded if no damage was found - as if
Its not a scam, again that's been practise for a number of years in certain hiring companies, and its never proved to be a problem for me.
You really must stop using the word SCAM for normal established business practise where millions of people don't get scammed.
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I use whatever word I choose to describe a fiddle, financial sharp practice or whatever it is. You could perhaps stop ordering me about! Note the lack of the word must.
Last edited by: Meldrew on Sun 25 Mar 12 at 10:30
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I agree these things aren't a scam, but may catch people out who aren't familiar with the process. Particularly, take a car back empty when it should be full and you'll get really spanked on the refueling cost, hence many people tend to prefer to pre-pay so they don't have to worry about it.
I find taking it back empty (or anywhere less than full) a pain as it's hard to judge how much fuel to put in as you reach the end of your holiday.
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>> I agree these things aren't a scam, but may catch people out who aren't familiar
>> with the process. Particularly, take a car back empty when it should be full and
>> you'll get really spanked on the refueling cost, hence many people tend to prefer to
>> pre-pay so they don't have to worry about it.
>>
>> I find taking it back empty (or anywhere less than full) a pain as it's
>> hard to judge how much fuel to put in as you reach the end of
>> your holiday.
>>
I don't see what is so difficult about returning a car in the same condition as you received it.
ie fairly clean, empty of rubbish, and full of fuel.
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It isn't difficult but it is not what what some car rental companies want and it isn't a money maker.
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>> I find taking it back empty (or anywhere less than full) a pain as it's
>> hard to judge how much fuel to put in as you reach the end of
>> your holiday.
Its quite easy, fill it to the first click of the pump as near to the rental station as possible. A system that's never failed me in 30 odd years of car renting.
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>> Its quite easy, fill it to the first click of the pump as near to
>> the rental station as possible. A system that's never failed me in 30 odd years
>> of car renting.
>>
Me neither, but the what if the filling station you were relying on is closed or has run out of fuel, the next nearesr one is 3 miles the wrong way and you're already up against it on time?
OK, I know that would *never* happen to you as you would have planned for such an eventuality, but not everyone is perfect. They get caught out, and then shout that they've been scammed.
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>> OK, I know that would *never* happen to you
It has
as you would have planned for
>> such an eventuality, but not everyone is perfect.
First thing I do on leaving the rental station is to check where I will fill it. And check its open on a sunday/late at night/etc
Ah! and also where the car return place is - sometimes its not where you picked it up! - I nearly missed a flight that way once,
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>> I use whatever word I choose to describe a fiddle, financial sharp practice or whatever
>> it is.
It is neither of those things. If you wish to keep your place on the pedants panel, shape up or ship out.
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What phrase would you use for the act of charging £49 for something costing £77 then?
Last edited by: Meldrew on Sun 25 Mar 12 at 14:03
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As the price per litre they charge is clearly highlighted at the hire desk, as they are obligated and trained to point it out when you sign the rental agreement, I would call it optional. Why what would you call it? certainly cant call it a "scam"
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 25 Mar 12 at 14:06
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Thats been the case for donkeys years, so long as you return it full assuming you received it full then no problem.
Quite rightly they will charge people who don't have the time or the inclination to refill for the privelidge, its a service they have to pay for.
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The only time I have rented a car was in Florida.Three quaters full when picked up.Returned full when finished.Petrol cheap in comparison didn't mind the quater extra.
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OK try rip-off, scanadalous profiterring, something will fit even if nwe can't agree what it is
It is a scam to the extent that the amount is not necessarily known to the hirer at the the time of booking. Additionally, one broker, "Argus" offers a car at a price but will not tell you who you are renting from until you click to confirm the reservation. Then you may, or not, find yourself at a rental desk paying a high percentage mark up on a tank of fuel or looking for an alternative rental. Rock and a hard place! More like Ryanair's management model.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 25 Mar 12 at 18:28
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It is not AT ALL as you describe. The amount per litre is CLEARLY displayed at the desk when time of signing the rental form, and YOU DONT HAVE TO PAY IT. just fill it up before you take it back.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 25 Mar 12 at 15:07
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No need to shout - it makes you look rude. SFAIK, and in my recent experience, the hire terms are not negotiable. Nobody in their right mind would fill up a car they had agreed to return empty.
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Only way to get you to see the actual facts rather than sensationalist wailing of SCAM!
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 25 Mar 12 at 15:25
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I can see well enough without having to read block capitals from someone apparently short on internet manners. I have reported on my recent experience in these matters and summarised an article written by Chris Haslam in today's Sunday Times.
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Isn't the art to see the minimum amount of fuel you can get in to make the needle show full? :-]
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My recent experience with Hertz, in Italy, is different. You specifically mentioned both by the way.
You need to shout at the deaf.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 25 Mar 12 at 15:56
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Shouting is rude whether on the the internet or speaking. I don't expect you know that though. Why don't you convey your views to chris.haslam@sunday-times.co uk and use your inimitable style to correct him and his article which I can guess you haven't read
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>> Shouting is rude whether on the the internet or speaking. I don't expect you know
>> that though.
I did know it is rude. Make of that what you like,
Why don't you convey your views to chris.haslam@sunday-times.co uk and use your inimitable
>> style to correct him and his article which I can guess you haven't read
I did read it, as I take the Sunday Times, its in the Travel section. He is not on here tho.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 25 Mar 12 at 17:05
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It tells me that you are rude but most of the regulars know that already.
The article you have read is on Page 2 of my Travel Section and the author has his contact details in bold print at the end of it, in my edition at least. That is where I got it from. You will also note the point I made earlier that Argus car hire agency will not tell you which particular organisation will supply the car until you have booked and you are thus unaware of their fuel policy until you have (Para 5) and so might be stuck with it.
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>> That is where I got it from. You will also note the
>> point I made earlier that Argus car hire agency will not tell you which particular
>> organisation will supply the car until you have booked and you are thus unaware of
>> their fuel policy until you have (Para 5) and so might be stuck with it.
You can cancel the booking if you don't like the terms. Sometimes you don't pay at booking through an agency, sometimes you do. Both of them you can cancel.
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>> It is not AT ALL as you describe. The amount per litre is CLEARLY displayed
>> at the desk when time of signing the rental form, and YOU DONT HAVE TO
>> PAY IT. just fill it up before you take it back.
I think you are missing the point. It's the collect full return/ empty model that is the problem not the other way around. If you return it full you will just be giving the hire company a free tank of petrol.
With the collect full /return empty model you you get charged for a full tank of petrol at premium prices and because it's not really possible to deliver a car completely empty the hirer makes a further profit on what is left in the tank. Perhaps not a scam in that its not illegal but it's certainly an irritating and annoying practice.
As I said above i always try to book a car with respectable small local companies and not use agencies
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And you are missing the point that this is not a mandatory option on the rental with the big hire companies. Its an optional "pre pay" that you have to accept or refuse.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 25 Mar 12 at 16:02
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May be mandatory with some Hertz "Special Offers" May be avoidable on other rentals.
"Some special offers may have a mandatory FPO clause, so that a full tank of fuel is charged upon pickup of the car and the vehicle must be returned with the tank empty. In this case, a related remark will appear at step "Review & Book" during the online quote/reserve process."
So not unexpected but not avoidable either.
Last edited by: Meldrew on Sun 25 Mar 12 at 16:29
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Well as its at the book stage is completely avoidable by using the standard rental terms (i.e. not a special offer) or with another renter, Its not hidden either so its not a scam.
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You could always park out of sight on the forecourt and fill the tank with water then cancel your credit card before they twig.
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The debt would still stand and the bank not the hire company will send the boys round.
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Scam is an overused word. Those emails from Nigeria are attempted scams.
The hire car fuel thing sounds as if it's in the same category as Tesco's half price wine offers (half a made up price) and Ryanair's opaque price advertising. Sharp practice that doesn't reflect any credit on the company concerned.
Clearly part of an attempt to make customers think they are getting a better deal than they really are, and create a 'shout' with a low headline price or discount. A bit of a three cup trick if anything - the buyer's attention is on the price promotion, not the margin being loaded back in elsewhere.
Last edited by: Manatee on Sun 25 Mar 12 at 17:00
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My favourite of those imaginary savings is by the shirt retailer renamed in our house after a Viz character called Terry, partly because the names rhyme but mainly because you'd have to be a, well, Terry to believe what they tell you about their prices.
Essentially Terry sells £25 shirts, and you can have four of these £25 shirts for the bargain price of £100, plus £4.95 delivery. Alternatively, you can wait a week for the next 'sale' and buy one £25 shirt for £25, plus £4.95 delivery.
But the extraordinary thing Terry wants you to believe is that your £25 shirt is really a £70 shirt. He does this, legally one presumes, by putting his catalogue on a separate 'preview' website, from which you can't actually buy anything, but showing the £70 price on which his supposed 'savings' are based.
The stupid thing is that the £25 shirts - some of them anyway - really aren't bad as £25 shirts go; they generally fit me and they last a couple of years. And if Terry would just cut the BS and call himself The Twenty-Five Pound Shirt Company I'd probably buy a lot more of them. As it is, I resent being taken for an idiot.
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The problem normally arises when you book through an agency like Holiday Autos. It is not possible to ascertain the fuel policy of the rental company when booking through them and you only find out that they are operating on a Full/Empty basis when you arrive at the rental desk.
If you are only renting for a day or two it can make a very large percentage increase to the cost of the rental.
Best always to book directly with the rental company and avoid brokers and agents in my experience.
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I used Holiday Autos years ago when I wrote off a car so would say their excess cover worked. But working on the assumption that you don't have a claim, and that companies are charging you for fuel if used or not, then that changes things.
I sometimes get a hire car for work when mine is off the road. If circumstances change then I might only use a few pounds of fuel there. I think our deal will remain as a company (full out and full back).
The change to fuel charges is food for thought. I don't think I used all that was in the tank of the Panda last May whilst in Tuscany until I got back to (near) Pisa airport. Then again a tank of petrol for a Panda is cheaper than 70 litres of diesel I can get into a Passat!
... and that's the thing. I could get a Passat that has a 70 litre tank or perhaps something else with a 64 litre tank. Not use all of it in either and you're charged for the tank. But the amount you are charged depends on the car provided. So this surely is unfair.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 26 Mar 12 at 00:04
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>> What phrase would you use for the act of charging £49 for something costing £77
>> then?
>>
But they aren't, are they? (noting you have that the wrong way round....)
They are charging £49 for the fuel + £28 to lose a member of staff while they go to the fuel station, leading to being understaffed thus possibly losing custom.
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Exactly ST -I've never been penalized for returning a car yet (touch wood) - I would imagine that corporate users are slightly less bothered.
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Lucky someone else didn't spot that typo! That is what they have to do (get the car filled up) if it is a condition of the rental that it is returned empty. It is a problem they have engineered for themselves.
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I am sorry but I don't follow what Meldrew is being a grumpy old Victor about here. perhaps he is only trying to live up to his user name.
You want to hire a car. The hire car company tells you these are the t&c for using our cars. You either agree to them and hire from them, or you don't. Why don't you set up your car hire company to compete with these scammers (as there will be plenty of customers flocking to you with your customer-friendly t&c) ?
Where is the problem? Market economy, business, profit, you pays your money and takes your choice.
Unless of course you are expecting the car hire service to be like the NHS - free at the point of delivery. In which case, try moving to a communist country and see how far you get trying to get a communal car on your t&c.
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The problem,as I said above, is that you don't necessarily know the fuel policy of the rental company until you turn up to collect the car. This applies if you book a car through an agency like Holiday autos which many people do. They are not able/unwilling to tell you who your actual rental company will be and what their fuel policy is
When you turn up to collect the car and you find that your car hire costs more than you anticipated if they are operating on a full/empty basis.
Not a scam perhaps but rather sharp practice.
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>> What phrase would you use for the act of charging £49 for something costing £77
>> then?
>>
Bargain?
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No - Typo! Which I owned up to earlier! :>)
Last edited by: Meldrew on Mon 26 Mar 12 at 11:26
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I use about 20+ hire cars a year. Never been "scammed" in any way, and never been charged for damage, even though on one occasion I should have been.
Usually get offered a choice of pre pay or return full in most overseas stations, and have had my card pre charged, but always been credited back a few days later, so no scam there.
Full out and full back is the most convenient for everyone - no need to worry about there being fuel in the car when you pick up, and no effort for the hire company as most will come back full.
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Me too, 15+ car hires a year, mostly work but used holiday autos for 1 or 2 of those.
I don't ever remember NOT having been given the choice of:
1. Full out full back
2. Pay for the tank and return how you like
Both very clear at sign up if you choose to listen
No Scam here I can detect unless Argus is really doing a dirty deal with lots of hire car companies to fit you up for a full out empty back no choice deal, but that sounds unlikely to me.
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Generally when you're on a package holiday in the US it's in the T's & C's that you pay for a tank of fuel and bring the car back empty. You do see a fair number of complaints from people who get it wrong, or just didn't understand, and bring the car back full.
To be fair, with the holiday rental focused companies you do have to keep your wits about you (not easy after a long flight and a possible longish wait for the car) as they try to sell you all sorts of stuff.
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Last summer I knew it was going to be tight for timing on returning the car so took the pre-paid tank option (the price is usually reasonable). It did make for something of a challenge returning it with the low tank light well and truly lit.
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Just back from Florida and had a car for a day from Dollar through Carhire3000. I'd booked a compact, cheekily asked for a free upgrade at the desk. He said he'd see what he could do, came back with a set of keys for a Focus, no mention of additional cost. Then you go through the online screens accepting everything you have and haven't booked, there was a $15 upgrade fee. I said Oh I didn't realise it was going to cost, please can I revert back to the compact. He went off out the back, came back with the same set of keys and took off the additional charge - but indicated to me that I was now getting a compact, which a Focus isn't.
Anyhow, the on topic bit - the agreement at time of internet booking said "Fuel should be paid for on arrival and it is not necessary to refill the tank before returning", which he pointed out to me. He added that there was no refund if tank was left with gas in. He charged me $4 a gallon for (I think) 12 gallons whereas most local outlets were around $3.80 - $3.85. Not too much of a rip off, but I don't think I had any choice to decline the option. (I also don't think that was clear in the booking process, until you received the small print, but I really have no complaints).
Again off topic - a mate I travelled with, collected a compact for 3 days from Orlando, and was given a Dodge Durango!! 3.6 litre engine, but he said at 105 it felt like it had run out of puff and was distinctly unstable! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2011_Dodge_Durango_--_03-09-2011.jpg
Last edited by: smokie on Thu 29 Mar 12 at 16:45
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This thread has prompted me to relate my little tale of a recent car hire experience.
I needed to hire car at Bremen airport for 2 days. I looked on a hertz website and got a quote for $89. Didn't seem a bad price so I started filling in the information to make the reservation. When I submitted the page with my UK address on I was diverted to another Hertz site, this time with the price in GBP. The price was now......£89. No other chnages: same car, insurance etc.
How can they justify this?
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>> How can they justify this?
>>
Presumably because we in the UK have a reputation (be it deserved or otherwise) for sucking up this sort of nonsense without argument...
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>> How can they justify this?
>>
Hertz often has discounts which apply from one country if booking for another, so that may well have been in the $ price, but went away when you went to the UK one.
There are usually codes kicking around that can get you anything from 10-30% off with Hertz.
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So, the last two times I've used a prominent rental company at Heathrow the tank has been no more than 7/8th full but is marked as being 8/8th full on the hand-over documentation whilst the contract asks for the tank to be brought back full.
I guess it depends on whether they charge you (or the previous renter) for any such shortfall as to whether it is bad practice ?
Anyhow, I suggest that you always check when you pick a car up. They will amend the handover documentation if challenged but returning at 7/8ths full isn't exactly convenient.
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>> So, the last two times I've used a prominent rental company at Heathrow the tank
>> has been no more than 7/8th full but is marked as being 8/8th full on
>> the hand-over documentation whilst the contract asks for the tank to be brought back full.
Last car I hired I pointed this out and the bloke promised me that it was full despite the reading on the gauge. I went round the corner, filled it to the brim and submitted the (timed) receipt. They refunded me PLUS I asked for and got a £5/£10 bonus; cannot remember how much.
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I used to hire a lot of cars through Hertz - sometimes 3 a week - so ended up in theri valued customer scheme. Think it was called presidents circle.
I remember once complaining as I picked up a car at Gatwick from the "special persons" bay right by the door as it was blocked in. They gave me a £50 voucher as an apology which was most generous as under our contract I had only paid £21 for the rental
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Hire Fuel Scam Spreading - CGNorwich
