One for BB perhaps. Master van according to the fault code reader had all 4 glowplugs u/s, but starting wasn’t really too much of a problem, although I fancied that come Winter it may be a different story. My Mechanic attempted to replace them but all bar one was seized in the head. A bit of research indicated that this problem was not uncommon. Continued to use the van with starting situation unchanged. However last week about a week after the work it almost refused to start. It had been run in the morning and left at work in I have to say warm and bright sunshine. When returning some 4 hours later it took forever to start and has been the same since then. A right PITA. In addition I ran it up stationary yesterday and let it warm up for 20 minutes or so and then switched off. Upon trying to re-start half an hour later it didn’t want to know at the first attempt. Could this be something other than glowplugs? 3 separate technicians including my guy have intimated that the works could easily come to £1000.00 with having to have the head off etc. and 1 chap at a main agent who are big Renault van people have said that sometimes they just won’t come out and a new head is required circa 2k from Renault and this is JUST the head! A few other items need doing as well now so am I looking at scrap? Mileage 104k.
Professional thoughts please.
Regards….Martin.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sun 26 Sep 10 at 20:37
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I'm no pro Mart only a kerbside cowboy but i'll give my opinion if i may.
I assume the mech replaced the 3 glow plugs that would come out, and after that it has started OK except for the odd 1 cyl misfiring till compression heat builds up enough for it to run OK...is that correct?
You could run the van quite happily with only 3 working glow plugs for years IMO, so long as you don't mind the missfiring for a few seconds, and i see no point in disturbing the cyl head unless it needs to come off for major work.
Something has happened in the last week, i'm going to hazard a guess that power to the remaining glow plugs has failed, could be the glow plug timer relay fuse has blown.
The duff glow plug i would disconnect anyway, it could have gone to direct short and there's no point in it being connected.
I assume the mech has connected a tester to the glow plugs to see if power is actually getting to them for the time period of pre heat...which can be quite a long period on some vehicles, sometimes a minute after the light goes out...the glow plug light can be ignored for this it.
Another test i would do is to disconnect all plugs from the supply wire and jerry wire each one individually in situ passing the current through an ammeter and see what each one is drawing, that should tell you if all 3 are OK or not, remove the easiest one and physically watch it glowing during the test, could be the plugs are not up to scratch...Beru seem to be well regarded but i imagine you are on OE parts anway.
That would be my starting point (no pun).
EDIT..have you primed the fuel pump assuming it has a primer to ensure the system is full of fuel.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Sun 26 Sep 10 at 07:49
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Hi GB>>My Mechanic attempted to replace them but ALL BAR ONE was seized in the head.
So only one working, but according to a test previously none of them worked. I am now doubting the veracity of this.
M
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Sorry Mart don't get this.
Are you saying because he couldn't get one out then he didn't replace the other 3?
The seized one i would leave well alone for the time being.
EDIT, IDIOT i am sorry Mart ignore all my previous rubbish, i should read properly.
Another edit if time....do get them checked individually in situ as i suggested.
Last edited by: gordonbennet on Sun 26 Sep 10 at 08:00
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If it wont start 20 minutes after being ran, I doubt its really just the glow plugs. I would be looking at compression. Has he done a compression test?
How about lack of fuel pressure? has he done a pressure test/leak off test?
Air leak into the fuel system?
A diesel that's just cooled for 20 minutes should start reasonably well, glow plugs or not.
Mind, the combo of the any underlying fault, and no glow plugs means come the winter this thing is going nowhere fast.
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We are aware of a minor fault which may be a fuel rail temperature or pressure sensor. The vehicle can be fine and then cut out always when under load at low speed. It used to do it quite often and could at one point almost be induced. It can then go weeks and not happen and then...... All this looks potentially 2-3k ish and I am not convinced it's worth it.
M
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If this is the Renault 2.2 dCi turbo unit, it should start relatively easily without the glow plugs.
Get rid, its not healthy.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 26 Sep 10 at 15:23
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You're not the first to have taken this view Matey. Thanks
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In these weather conditions, the glow plugs on a direct injection common rail diesel engine are doing virtually **nothing** regarding whether the engine starts or not, all they are doing is making the first few hundred firing strokes of the engine burn more cleanly until the engine builds up enough heat of its own. DI engines have very compact combustion chambers which are very good thermally.
Indirect injection, of olden days, really needed glow plugs to start, because the surface area to volume ratio of their rather complicated combustion chambers was very unfavourable with regard to heat transfer - i.e., most of the heat from compression transferred away into the metalwork of the engine, and so combusition simply couldn't happen without some extra heat power being applied.
I agree with Zero's view that you are looking at a more serious problem than just glow plugs.
In terms of removing the glow plugs, if possible, get the engine scorching hot, and, if there's good enough access unscrew the troublesome one with the engine running. As the head will be aluminium alloy, and the glow plug steel based, high temperature gives the loosest possible fit.
The biggest reason for glow plug seizure in modern cylinder heads, with long pencil type glow plugs is a failure of the taper seal - combustion gas gets past the taper seal, and the gap between the cylindrical body of the glow plug and the head gets filled up - rammed solid! - with carbon like gunk.
Glow plugs where the seal remains intact usually crack off with the socket, and then can be undone by hand, but, one where the taper seal has leaked will fight ALL the way out, squealing and squeaking as you turn.
Look at the Beru website, and find the size of glow plug fitted to your engine - Beru will list the breakage torque for that glow plug. From experience, you can apply 50% more than the figures Beru quote in reasonalbe safety, but, I would not go beyond that value.
I also agree with Zero's advice - do a leak off check of the injectors, check the rest of the common rail system, and if you're lucky enough to get it running some bit like, and get rid ASAP.
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>> I also agree with Zero's advice - do a leak off check of the injectors,
>> check the rest of the common rail system, and if you're lucky enough to get
>> it running some bit like, and get rid ASAP.
>>
The rest of your post had me uplifted briefly, but clearly yours and the view of others is to say ta ta? It runs and runs and goes well except for this starting glitch if you like, which may take several £££'s to locate I guess. If the injectors have a leak are we talking big (ish) bucks or do I already know the answer??
Thanks NC.
Martin
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The leak off test shouldn't be too expensive - even better if the van can be connected up to a decent scanner while it is being started, to get some idea what the fuel rail pressure sensor thinks is happening.
If you do find a leaky injector, I'm not sure how easy they are to remove from the engine - for some types of common rail injectors, it's not trivial.
Sorry to be doom laden!
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I think that the bin may be laden soon with one big white van!
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but clearly yours and the view
>> of others is to say ta ta? It runs and runs and goes well except
>> for this starting glitch if you like,
I disagree with that MD until the very simple tests have been done on the glow plugs, and someone's checked that you do have fuel fully primed before trying to start...churn away for ages if air is getting in somehow and you are refilling the filter each time.
NC is right that some CR units (indeed some indirects will too) fire up without waiting for glow plugs but not all by any means, and Z may know how these engines normally fire up.
Mitsibishi 2.5D 4x4's for example you can turn them over till the cows come home if you don't let them pre heat, slightly warm too and brand spankers.
However your vehicle has done over 100K and compressions won't be as new.
It might be worth getting this fixed and the van may well give you another couple of years service, your trusted mechanic is the only one apart from you who actually knows this truck and has given his diagnosis....he might well be right but may need a hand by a specialist with the right tool to get these glow worms out, is there a competent Diesel shop in your area likely to have the equipment.
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There is GB, but I am beginning to lean towards other things, i.e. an air leak. Fixing would be good if doo-able as money is at a premium and work is not exactly over burdening us right now. However it would seem that many hundreds can be spent chasing a solution with no guarantee of success.
Thanks once again.......Martin.
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The Plot thickens (sadly). Mechanic gets under van. Visually checks all fuel lines. No Leaks. Removes centre console (Gearlever cover) to see if there is a way into the fuel tank/pump this way, there isn’t. Disconnect fuel lines. Prime and diesel is everywhere. Clearly not a fuel shortage. Start engine, stop engine numerous times. Starting still a bit slow, but not as slow as the last few days, but this is not down to today’s input as it was reasonably fine since first thing this morning, Coincidence I am sure. Following so far?? Heave a temporary sigh of relief. Take fuel line apart mid way, purge all. Re-assemble and test. Starts and runs fine. I vacuum cabin in area of console to remove dogs hairs and other dusty detritus, re-fit console. Ruddy thing won’t start!!! AND still refuses. Mech’ thinks perhaps immobiliser fault, poss locked out due to being in and out of the thing half the day, operating central locking from the headlining/light switch as key is u/s. Attach fault code reader. 2 faults show. Glowplugs which we know about and intermittent fuel rail pressure which we also know about. NO Immobiliser fault code showing! These 2 faults have been there for ages and which are well documented. If it is the immobiliser then we may have a problem with a re-set as the key internals are u/s in terms of the ‘clickability’ of the key, but I refused to pay ANOTHER £100.00 for another piece of carp, so use the thing manually and have done for months. Battery in key fine (tested). Van battery quite tired, but by no means out when the problem started (sic) On charge tonight. What will the morning bring?
Where is your money GB, NC & Z. All thoughts genuinely appreciated.
Regards as ever….Martin.
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I have the sneaky suspicion this intermittent possibly immobiliser fault (though could be something else) may well be the problem, the glow plugs possibly not desperate until the frosts arrive..though you'd know from previous use whether your van needs pre heat or not, if it fired up instantly without waiting for pre heat in previous winters then there's no reason that shouldn't continue.
If it needed pre heat normally then that points to having to get the glow worms fixed at some point....is power getting to them or have you not got that far yet.
I seem to remember when checking glow plugs before that a healthy plug takes about 20 to 25 amps current.
I don't know enough about these immobilisers to suggest a fix other than to wonder if it's possible to by pass the damned thing completely, will need to ask a good wireman about that though.
You may have to stump up for a key Mart, i don't know how Renault/Vauxhall keys are programmed to the vehicle, is it possible to get a cheaper non plipper chipped key and get it programmed to the vehicle...still might be a dealer visit though.
Sorry, not much blinking help, hopefully some knowledge will be along later.
Seems only yesterday when you'd simply jerry wire the vehicle by passing everything as a start to diagnosis (and leave it like that till you have time to fix it), and shove a squirt of easy start in on a cold morning.
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>> I have the sneaky suspicion this intermittent possibly immobiliser fault (though could be something else)
>> you'd know from previous use whether your van needs pre heat or not, if it
>> fired up instantly without waiting for pre heat in previous winters then there's no reason
>> that shouldn't continue.
>>
IGNORING glow plugs for now.
>> I don't know enough about these immobilisers to suggest a fix other than to wonder
>> if it's possible to by pass the damned thing completely, will need to ask a
>> good wireman about that though.
FOUND something on the net tonight regarding a Non plipper (central locking) key.
>> You may have to stump up for a key Mart, i don't know how Renault/Vauxhall
>> keys are programmed to the vehicle, is it possible to get a cheaper non plipper
>> chipped key and get it programmed to the vehicle...still might be a dealer visit though.
ALSO found a site that sells a box that disables the immobiliser. (Yes, I'll beware!)
I am appreciating all input.
Regards............Martin
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Battery low voltage (should log an error, but sometimes dont) poor earths. Clean and refit the engine to body earth strap.
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I AM IN L U R V E!!
Good news you may have guessed. Well a trip to Exeter (The BIG city) and to a company called Electro Diesel. No grease monkey's there. My 'man' had pre-booked and they already knew a bit about the prob's. Got grilled by the man at reception and then by the guy who was going to do the work. Up 'on the ramp' at the allotted time so I went for a burger at the van in Homebase. Back after a mooch to sit in reception, small, but comfortable (nothing to read) except the inside of my eyelids! After an hour or so techie arrives to say leak back on No. 1 Injector. Tells me it might just be a seal, but of course it might not be and comes without guarantees. "I can do (try) it now if you like." I like big time. 4 injectors would be about 1k fitted + vat of course. I ask him for gut feeling and he says let's give it a try, but he reinforces...no guarantee. If it is scored then problem will still be there. 1 1/2 hours later the van whips pass reception and away for 20 mins. Tech comes back and says it seems fine. Couldn't give it a full road test as I would have liked as traffic heavy as M5 shut due to a five car pile up. I pay £120.?? + the vat and wend my way home smiling...................NO.......Grinning. Comes at a good time regarding funds/work etc.
Amazed at the performance unloaded. Annoyed at having cleared it out FULLY. Good lord it took me 8..yes 8 hours to remove all, box it (most) find a home for it. On the upside it will make me do what I have been promising to do and that is have a ruddy good dung out and re-group. Of course, nothing much will get binned, just sidelined!!
Thanks to all who scratched their heads and if any of you need half a pair of protective specs, some short fat screws (careful Z) I will forward them on.
Best to all,
Martin.
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Good result.
Might be worth doing an oil change if its not had one for a while and you are now going to keep it.
I imagine a van for you is only a large tin box to carry tools and materials, so there's no point in buying anything too smart anyway because it would only get knocked about.
Last edited by: Iffy on Wed 29 Sep 10 at 21:04
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Just shows how specialised fuelling systems have become, and well second guessed Z.
Did the Mr Fixit have any suggestions as to why the glow plugs should be flagged up as faulty.
Keep us posted how she goes Mart.
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Before we all go patting ourselves in the back, lets see what happens in the morning.
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PAXO, but I'm listening again.
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Just saying that the resolution will be tested over a couple of morning starts after an overnight layup.
If you plan to keep this I would stick some cleaning additives in the next couple of tankfulls, give it a trashing, then change the oil as iffy suggested,
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Have done 2 Millers jobs now and had it on one of the 'shelves' until it went away for 24 hours to the dungeons. M
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These guys were really different to my usual meetings with couldn't care less, treat you as a Moron, type folk. I showed very little tech knowledge at first, but they were as straight as a gun barrel. Huge respect.
The front of house guy, clearly VERY clued up indicated that a glow plug fault on the code reader (and I, rightly or wrongly) presumed he meant with all marques, usually/often indicated a general fault and not specific to glow plugs.
I asked about the ability of the Dci 2.2 Renault to start without 'plugs' in the winter and he said all Dci's should start with little problem as the glow plug thing is all about emissions etc. and little to do with starting. Most problems are caused by air. Leak back or otherwise.
Electro Diesel (Exeter). Thoroughly recommended.
Best................MD
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Had it since new (My Baby lol) Last Oil change 8k semi synth' Will run it for another month (ish) then 2 front tyres, CV joint, Oil and filter change and then cambelt/idlers etc.
A large van makes my life acceptable. Not having to lean in, not having to move tools to find other tools, not to have everything stacked together wet etc etc. You can see the picture. Plus you can stand up in it, change and hang up wet clothes. Cook a simple meal (I can't abide sandwiches any more). I can keep long straight edges in there. Timber dry. Plasterboard dry. 'tis Men and sheds really and I love it cos it works. In a strange way liken it to Pat missing her routine.
Anyway I hope it keeps breathing for a while now. Given it's age I suspect that there will ultimately be other paragraphs.
Best regards to you all............Martin
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You're obviously delighted to find someone you can trust.
Just like us when we find an honest builder. ;>)
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Started OK this morning then?
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YES INDEEDEE. You were wrong..................................then you were right!!
Before I loaded it up I thought (with your words buzzing around) that I'd better see if it starts. Well it did right on the button, but thankfully a mate turned up to go and look at a job so unloaded as it was we left for town. The starting this time was different i.e. took a bit longer. Parked in town for 5 mins and returned to....you've guessed it, no go. Only a liberal dosing of Easy start would let it fire up. Took it to the local Techie and there were 5 fault codes, 4 of them new. 'It' now resides in Exeter to see what the problem/s is/are. I have lost 3 days work this week so the cost is mounting. Off to do a bit in a mo in the ruddy Jimny. I'm bound to forget to put something in it's cavernous space.
See you tonight.
M
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Shame ... I thought you'd cracked it M,
That used to be my life for 14 years - diagnosing & correcting faults such as you have, but on petrol jobbies,
At least with a mobile chappie - *he* has to come back to you, so its in his interest to geddit right first time,
I hope you sort it eventually matey, you certainly deserve to but, life's not like that, is it :(
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There should be some news today.
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Exeter called. Fault on No. 4 injector and asked permission to have the other two out (one had a new seal on Wednesday) I said yes so we await the news. Hopefully will be on the train to the metropolis by 15.00
Chow for now.
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As it's a Renault it will self destruct so no matches needed...
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These guys sound very good from what you're telling me.
Only about an hour away from me as well :)
To date I've not had any major probs with the Primastar (except the turbo) but I will NOT be taking it to the dealer any more.
Even though they give me 15% off parts and labour they are still expensive. I suspect that they are limited as to what they can do on cost, after all we all have our bottom price.
Martin, if you're short of work and you're willing to come down to Tavistock area, I may be able to help.
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Hi Hugo, nice to hear from you again. I will reply more fully later regarding work. Much appreciated.
Best regards,
Martin.
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Hugo, I have 2 e-mail addresses for you from yonks ago when I sent you the Terms and Conditions stuff. Does either still apply? If you don't still have mine get the Mods to send it to you, (Mod's, take this as an OK please) and we will converse regarding the work thing possibly over the weekend.
Best regards,
Martin.
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Well we seem to be back in business. After it returned to Exeter it was diagnosed with 2 further injector problems so with my consent they refurnished the remaining 3 plus added a modified seal/cover as well as apparently 2 of the 4 get water dripping on them from the wiper area. All seams OK at the moment. Didn't report too soon as I didn't want a Zero bug again o:)
It took all day again yesterday to fill it back up again with tools and 'stuff' etc. and it's still not complete!!
Thank to all here. Electro Diesel Exeter. (Osprey Road). Highly recommended.
Regards........Martin.
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Good to see it's sorted (for now). As regards getting rid, it's a tough one because you could take on more problems with another replacement van, unless it's new with warranty. And even then it might be a lemon and you'd suffer downtime just taking it to the dealers all the time. Sometimes better the devil you know, unless it starts costing big money.
Glad to see you've found a good specialist. I could have done with one when I had my Tdi.
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Glad it's sorted .
(As if I need another reason to avoid buying a Renault.)
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MD,
When was the last fuel filter changed ? I know this has all been seal related however, you talk about the usual oil, filter etc... but no mention of the fuel filter. Millers might be good but it's no sub for a new filter.
Last edited by: gmac on Thu 7 Oct 10 at 21:55
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All done Sir. I keep all these things up to speed. It starts on the button now and I do want to keep it. Foolhardy maybe, but with a bigger financial crisis looming I don't want more debt. Plus any used van may still come with the same problems.
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...I do want to keep it. Foolhardy maybe, but with a bigger financial crisis looming I don't want more debt...
Makes sense to me, customers won't pay more just because you've got a shiny new van.
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Seriously there are guys here (Devon) and guys I know 'up country' who are twiddling their thumbs. Bigger 'employment' problems to come methinks. Our industry has always been feast and famine, but problems now are much deeper as we all know so 'keeping one's Powder dry' has never been more pertinent.
M
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Renault - 02 2.2 Poor starting - -
