2005/05, DW8B/WJY series engine - IDI like the old XUD but with some electronic management of injector pump.
Owned from new and now on 140k miles. Always started at first turn of key and immediately idled smoothly.
Three weeks ago it went to my normally reliable and trustworthy Cit specialist for major service. Cambelt was replaced as well as fuel and air filters.
Since it came back it’s been ‘odd’ starting. From cold it’s decidedly rough, misfiring for 5-15 seconds accompanied by grey smoke and smell of incompletely burned diesel. Slightly hesitant even when warm. Once running though it’s fine and pulling like a train as usual. Trips to Liverpool and Leicester return normal fuel consumption and other performance.
If it had displayed the symptom spontaneously I’d have said glow plug(s) not right or, if not, air in fuel. Plugs were tested and pronounced OK for circuit, resistance and timing. Observation on start up showed small air bubbles passing down line filter to pump in second after start but not necessarily coincident with roughness.
It’s been back to garage three times and after a ‘no fault found’ diagnosis *2 it was kept overnight with fuel filter fitted at service being adjudged faulty and replaced.
On cold start this morning it was still as rough as a Badger’s backside for 10 secs with grey smoke etc.
Ideas for cause and where do I go next please.
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I think I would be inclined to get the cam timing rechecked.any issue here will cause poor starting.
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>> I think I would be inclined to get the cam timing rechecked.any issue here will
>> cause poor starting.
>>
+1
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When my Astra diesel showed exactly the same symptoms as this on starting, it turned out to be a 'bunged-up' EGR system www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=13143&v=f
This year, I replaced the EGR valve (or, to be more precise, the garage did!).
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I had this on the Elantra, turned out only two of the four glowplugs were working, same symptoms. Usually giving it a rev cleared the smoke and it soon ran smooth after a mile or so.
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Since you are running out of ideas... (provided the cambelt timing has been rechecked),
If you restart after standing for sometime when it is 'warm' do you have the same problems? Try leaving a fan heater under it for an hour in the morning.
I just wonder if when they dismantled things any temperature measuring devices have been disturbed - french electrical connectors being what they are:)
Not sure on that engine what temperature compensation there is?
Last edited by: sherlock47 on Mon 28 Apr 14 at 18:12
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It's been back with garage sine 09:00 last Thursday. Obviously difficult for them as fault only really evident cold so they loaned me a Picasso to give them a few mornings to try mine after it's not been run for 14hrs.
Spoke to proprietor who flatly denied pump timing could be wrong. He asserts engine would either not run or be permanently rough, not just on start.
I'm doubtful because this engine, although IDI, has an ECU measuring stuff like throttle position, air/coolant temperature, airflow, crank position, speed and injector lift on No1 cylinder. It can thus advance or retard the pump timing via a solenoid to maintain emissions.
I just wonder if that mechanism could adjust the timing enough to compensate for the manual setting at the belt/pump sprocket being out by say 2 teeth. It would then start rough but even up as the solenoid moved in relation to ECU commands.
Haynes has a specific check on fitting of new belt to ensure any slight movement of the pump sprocket to line up with belt teeth is in only one direction only and no more than one tooth. There are right/wrong drawings to illustrate this.
Today they were replacing a manifold gasket but I cannot see that being problem as manifold is at atmospheric pressure, at least when engine is stopped so no chance of affecting injection etc nad thus giving roughness or smoke.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 29 Apr 14 at 19:34
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Fault still present.
It spent all of last week at the garage including having the injectors removed and tested. I've not been charged for that work but garage are close to saying they haven't a clue what's wrong.
Since it's been back first starts of the day have had differing results but with a possible pattern:
Friday and Saturday I used it during morning. Air temperature around 9degrees C but as it was colder overnight and with vehicle in shade under bonnet temp was likely lower. Rough start and lots of grey smoke before settling to normal idle after 7-10 seconds.
Sunday and yesterday I didn't use it until mid afternoon. Air temperature 20+ and car in sunshine for several hours so underbonnet temperature likely higher. Started with only the briefest of hesitation and no significant smoke.
Today, mid morning, temp 15 and a bit of sun on car - about half way between results above.
It's been to Leicester and back and sat in a jam in Northampton for 30mins - long enough for rad fan to cut in. No other ill effects such as roughness and fuel consumption is normal; 250 miles on odometer since I last filled it and half tank still showing on gauge. No sign of exhaust smoke or any roughness that might point to valves etc.
Although glow plugs test OK symptoms are so consistent with lack of pre-heat that I'm going to get them replaced. If I take it somewhere else for a second opinion that's going to be first question they ask.
While typing this an earlier call to garage was returned by the owner. With clues above he's going to discuss it with his techs and call me back. Provisionally he agrees with me that eliminating plugs for definite is probably way forward before more involved stripping or whatever.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 6 May 14 at 12:10
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VAG primarily, but the issues are similar. www.tdiclub.com/TDIFAQ/TDiFAQ-8.html Temperature sensors are mentioned in the trouble shooting list: might be related to your experience at warmer ambient?
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…………. and they've checked the EGR valve and associated pipework?
(I'm assuming that it's got that sort of set-up)
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>> …………. and they've checked the EGR valve and associated pipework?
>> (I'm assuming that it's got that sort of set-up)
Service found some perished EGR piping which was replaced. My problems though are solely at start unlike yours which seemed to cause roughness etc in ordinary driving.
Today it's been to Leicester again, a 70 mile round trip, and other than rough/smoky start it was faultless. Brim/brim fuel consumption for last 290 miles is 41mpg - upper side of average for breeze block aerodynamics pulled by a low tech 68bhp motor.
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"My problems though are solely at start unlike yours which seemed to cause roughness etc in ordinary driving. "
Sorry, I think I may have misled you ………… the problem last year was awful starting with clouds of smoke - that was the 'blocked intake pipe on the EGR system' - whatever is meant by that. There were no fault codes showing, and I was surprised to find that car was fine after about half a mile when I drove it tentatively down to the garage. Like yours, it started and ran fine when it had warmed up - this is what was so confusing at the time. The symptoms could only be duplicated after the car had stood overnight to cool down.
The problem this year was slightly rough starting and running - and there was a warning light with fault codes. This was cured by replacing the glow plugs and the EGR valve.
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Bromp
Was there a hint of this before the cambelt change? If not, and they haven't done it, then I would insisit that they re-check the timing....always best to start with the job last done! Although, it could be a concidence that a second plug has gone down at the same time - they're not that hard to change, and will rule them out as possible cause. After that, double check all connections to the pump, and if applicable, test the vacuum (not worked on a DW8, not sure how they control the pump). Then get the valve clearances checked.
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Have you tried cycling the glow plugs two or three times before a cold start? If this makes for a cleaner start and less lumpy initial running, it would suggest that one or more of the glow plugs are past their best.
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I think we're getting somewhere.
New plugs fitted yesterday.
This morning, outside temperature 13C, it started and ran normally with only the usual puff of smoke as it fired. In same conditions yesterday it coughed and stuttered for several seconds with a large cloud of grey smoke and characteristic smell of incompletely burned diesel.
First thought on collection yesterday was that there was still a problem as although it picked up cleanly it hiccuped twice.
Emerging conclusion is that there were two problems (a) plugs and (b) a bit of air getting into fuel with (b) possibly still extant. I'll monitor for on occasions when I have an assistant to start it while I watch the stuff in the translucent lines and play about with hand primer pump - which does not lock solid as instructions suggest it should.
Thanks for all the tips.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 13 May 14 at 09:16
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Before the new plugs did you try the trick of 2 or 3 cycles of heating before starting?
The problem you have now is that the temperature in the mornings (should) start rising with the onset of summer. Disguising any reluctance to start, and taking you out and beyond any 'warranty' period for the work carried out.
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Something that has not been suggested here,has the correct grade of engine oil been used?My reasoning is that I have a transit connect with a 1.8 di engine and last year I used 10/40 oil instead of the correct 5/30 and found that cold starting was definitely an issue with the incorrect oil.Just a thought.
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Recycling the plugs on XUD units, where they simply ran for N, seconds was a solution I've used in past. This car has, albeit in fairly simple form, ECU control of such parameters and is not so easily fooled.
As to oil I've no reason to doubt.
Separate issue now as it's developed a coolant leak from thermostat gasket. I'd smelled coolant for a while and was needing to fill reservoir. Last night drips were evident and spray on clutch bell housing. Further inspection myself located wet hoses and drips form stat housing.
There's history there as at service I reported oil in coolant which was, I'm sure correctly, diagnosed a a failed oil cooler. At nine years and 140k miles such issues are to be expected and it was replaced on day following service.
Immediately afterwards it started to run absurdly cool. Thermostat stuck open, probably due oil contamination of seals etc. It was replaced in turn.
Garage were very good about leak, I reported it at 15:00 and left car with them at 17:00, swapping it for one of their loan cars.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 13 May 14 at 20:05
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My experience with the XUD was that it always needed the glow plugs to start. Always. Even on a warm day with the engine already up to temperature.
Glow plugs under ECU control do weird things. Just because the light isn't on doesn't mean they're not in use - most modern diesels run them as soon as the door is unlocked or opened, which gives the illusion of instant starting.
BTW, the squishy priming bulb thingamajig never goes entirely solid.
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Hi Bromptonaut
As RichardW said above, have the valve clearances been checked?
Whilst you would usually go back to the last thing done prior to the issue appearing (timing belt change), it could be that the relationship between cam and crank is ever so slightly different due to the new belt.
This might have been just enough to expose a valve that has gradually been closing up.
The symptoms are exactly yours as far as I can see. Slightly lumpy running the colder it gets on first start up, usually dropping one cylinder, unburnt fuel mist from exhaust, smoothing out once the cylinder head warms through a little and being fine for the rest of the day.
I've run a number of XUD engined cars and come across this a couple of times.
Hope you get it resolved.
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Only just spotted citronaut's reply which was posted while I was on my hols.
Since the pre-heat plugs were replaced it's done another 4500 miles and been absolutely fine. It's been to Liverpool for end of Uni term and The Lad had it last weekend taking it to North Wales and back. Pulls like it always did and returns 40+ to gallon if driven with care.
As that's all been in summer months it has still to be tested on a sub zero start. First serious frost here is not usually before November.
Might of course be a combination of plugs and a change in cam/crank relationship as you suggest and which has sorted itself as the new belt beds in.
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I do realise this is the later DW8 just in case anyone thinks otherwise!
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>> Since it came back it�s been �odd� starting. From cold it�s decidedly rough, misfiring for
>> 5-15 seconds accompanied by grey smoke and smell of incompletely burned diesel. Slightly hesitant even
>> when warm. Once running though it�s fine and pulling like a train as usual. Trips
>> to Liverpool and Leicester return normal fuel consumption and other performance
What's with all the question marks inside black diamonds?
{message snipped. no need to quote the whole message. A brief summary suffices}
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 1 Aug 14 at 10:20
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>> >> Since it came back it�s been �odd� starting. From cold it�s decidedly rough, misfiring
>> for
>> >> 5-15 seconds accompanied by grey smoke and smell of incompletely burned diesel. Slightly hesitant
>> even
>> >> when warm. Once running though it�s fine and pulling like a train as usual.
>> Trips
>> >> to Liverpool and Leicester return normal fuel consumption and other performance
>>
>> What's with all the question marks inside black diamonds?
>>
>> {message snipped. no need to quote the whole message. A brief summary suffices}
>>
Ok. Point taken. I get the message.
What's the answer to my question?
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It's an oddity which has occurred only recently where for some reason an apostrophe is showing in way Duncan hilights. Could the Mods refer it to Stephen?
Don't know if it's OS/Browser related but it's present on my laptop Win7/Chrome and my Hudl tablet Android 4.2.2/Chrome.
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It's not present on IE
Pat
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>> It's not present on IE
In my IE the diamonds are hollow squares.
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Well that's weird Focus, I'm on IE11 and can't see it at all.
Pat
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Pat,
Are you seeing a normal apostrophe which is what is meant to be there.
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Im using Firefox and seeing question marks inside black diamonds.
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>> Ok. Point taken. I get the message.
Obviously not, otherwise you wouldn't have quoted the whole post (again!)
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>> What's with all the question marks inside black diamonds?
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>> {message snipped. no need to quote the whole message. A brief summary suffices}
>>
No Sir.
The post had been snipped by your good self to what, I presume, you thought was an appropriate length.
I was quoting the abbreviated post as abbreviated by you, Mr Moderator.
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>> I was quoting the abbreviated post as abbreviated by you
*Bangs head*
But you didn't abbreviate it yesterday when you replied.
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Ok.
_____________________________________________________________
What is the answer to my question?
Last edited by: Duncan on Fri 29 Aug 14 at 16:33
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>> What is the answer to my question?
There's some sort of glitch between the site's software and some OS/browser combinations.Probably something to do with fonts.
Presumably the Mods have referred it to Stephen Khoo for answer/fix.
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Hi, Have you been sorted? Am not an expert, but it is possible that the vacuum pipes to the EGR have been swapped or are not connected. This problem is normally accompanied with engine light coming on intermittently. Refer to diagrams on the vacuum pipes & set them as per what you see. However, if the engine light is not coming on, your challenge may be different.
Could it also be that at the the garage crucial electricals may have disconnected without following the usual PSA shutdown procedure? If proper shutdown is not done on modern PSA cars, it may result in "madness" which may manifest itself as what you are experiencing. If you suspect this is the case, you can try resetting the system by closing all doors of the car but leave the drivers window open, then turn the key off remove the key & wait for 30min and finally disconnect the battery and leave it that way overnight. In the morning, connect the battery & wait for a while for the system to normalize for abt 15min before testing the car.
If the above two simple procedures are not solutions to your problem, you need serious help.
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>> Hi, Have you been sorted?
It seemed to be sorted back in may by the installation of a fresh set of glow plugs. Whether that's permanent or not will, I guess, only be finally confirmed when sub zero temperatures return.
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Hey ho. Frost returnded and it's rough as a badger's arxe again but fine once it's run or a few seconds.
Nearly 150k now so due another service. Will give the local guy a chance to diagnose again but then it's off to an alternative.
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check your battery terminals t he ones on my van are very loose on the bat + side
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they have a clip on type ..bit rubbish
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Bromp,
As you've just reviewed your new 'lingo, I'm curious as to whether you ever got to the bottom of the rough starting on the older one?
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id suggest you replace the engine buddy. You've got some pretty good life out of it already.
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He's having the head worked on - discussed in another part of the forum.
www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=19797
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>> He's having the head worked on - discussed in another part of the forum.
I keep saying he needs his head worked on.
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We are now up to 128 posts in these two threads.
I said option three a long time ago i.e. take £500 and get rid.
Brompy, you're sooooooo civil service.
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Duncan, this isn't a car I'm running on bangernomics principles. The clutch, exhaust and alternator have all been replaced recently. I've had it from new and it's a long term prospect for 15yrs and 200k.
The work to sort out the valve clearances was completed today and is reported as having solved problems. I'm on hols so The Lad picked it up and he says it as running fine but then he's got my Dad's feel for mechanicals so the jury's still out.
Will file a concluding report when I'm back home next week.
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>> Duncan, this isn't a car I'm running on bangernomics principles.
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>> Will file a concluding report when I'm back home next week.
Bromp, I enjoy it when people make a (possibly unwarranted) fuss about a car. It gives a simple soul like me, who normally can't be bothered to file long posts, something to read.
I also enjoy teasing people who make a fuss.
No offence meant and none taken, I guess/hope.
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sounds like the garage have messed with the vehicle to be honest dude
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What are you on about? They certainly failed to detect/misdiagnosed the original fault but having had it pointed out they seem to have got it right in the end.
Apart from work subcontracted to a diagnostic outfit I've not paid anything for their lost time on investigation so that's their problem not mine.
See the thread in Motoring for latest position.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 1 Jun 15 at 11:52
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Citroen Berlingo Multispace - 05 1.9 IDI Engine - Rough Starting - carmalade
