My 05 Focus Ghia had done 15000 when I bought it in o6. It has failed 4 dual-mass clutches in 20000 miles since at circa £1000 per repair (inc flywheel) at a main Ford dealer. There have been no warning signs of wear as indicated by early clutch bite but the latest failure started when I went to change gear but couldn't find any, and with the clutch pedal at lowest point the car jump started when I switched on. The dealer's story is that "we're all in the same boat" with these new non-asbestos clutch materials and "we all need to modify our driving habits", but an average of 5000miles/clutch is ridiculous. My Mondeo's clutch is still going strong at 60000.
I wrote to FoMoCo but they say they've had no "reports" in this connection, which seems odd since the local dealer's technicians are only too familiar with the problem. The friction material used by Ford must be poor.
I gather that the problem has led to development of single-plate conversion kits (not by Ford) with a frictioh-lining life equal to or better than that of the asbestos type. I'd be glad to hear from forum readers who've made the change or have had the same problem and found an answer otherwise.
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>> The dealer's story is that ............. "we all need to modify our
>> driving habits", ............
Did the dealer explain in what way "we all need to modify our driving habits"?
Last edited by: L'escargot on Thu 11 Jul 13 at 05:52
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>> Diesel or petrol?
Because the thread title said 2.0 Focus I assumed that it was a 2 litre petrol.
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At time of first repair the dealer's top techie took me for a drive to check on my driving habits but (a) the drive was too short for that and in a busy residential area and (b) I was obviously on best behaviour. He was obviously looking for a clutch-riding/slipping, tearaway approach. Present-day clutch friction material won’t stand heat, he said, adding that towing, slipping the clutch, and even slow progress in prolonged hold-ups are undesirable, as if the one or the other can be entirely avoided. (So why does his employer offer/fit towbars, for example?) In fact, I coast in neutral (rather than in gear) a lot to save fuel - and even more so since the first failure, for cooling purposes, having left off the undershield - and up here in Derbyshire the hills afford ample scope for coasting, so wear should be less than average.
When I have inspected the the damaged parts there was so little friction material left that I was amazed the car had not failed sooner on each occasion. Had it done so, perhaps the flywheel would not have had to be replaced. If the evidence of near-future need for clutch repair had been apparent I could have driven it to a specialist and (cheaper) repair outfit, whereas it has had to be recovered and outside normal working hours whilst the dealer has a camera-controlled area (with key/message box), where it has escaped overnight vandalism on each occasion
The car is a petrol model. I can't afford £5000-10000 for a replacement, and I've kept the Mondeo (1995-year) in use because it still goes through the MOT thanks to my efforts (I have an engineering background and an HNC Mech). Just as well because my wife won't drive the Focus, given the let-downs. I wrote to the boss at the dealers seeking recompense. No reply.
Focus clutch failures are clearly an embarrassment to the dealers techies. I'm going to tackle them about alternative material/clutch this time, among other things and, given Fomoco's response, I intend to write to the Motor Manufacturer's Retail Association since I gather they have an arbitration service that has helped in cases like this. Meanwhile, I'll be glad to hear from you out there on this matter.
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In fact, I coast in neutral (rather than in
>> gear) a lot to save fuel - and even more so since the first failure,
That isn't saving you fuel, on overrun the fuel will be shut off completely whereas you will be using fuel to keep the engine ticking over out of gear, or do you shut the engine off too and bump start it again when needed?
I'm not sure whats involved in your cars gearbox but coasting out of gear, as many lorry drivers did in the good old days, apparently -;), (Irish overdrive) was warned against as the more modern lorry boxes that appeared around 70/80's had internal oil pumps and would be oil starved coasting.
I don't however think that your coasting is the problem here.
Thinking about your particular car, is it particularly weak at low engine revs, is it inclined to stall unless you give it ample throttle as you feed the clutch in...think about how it drives in comparison to the Mondeo, if you have to abuse the clutch even slightly every time you start off or come to a rolling start junction (and you do live in a hilly area) then accelerated wear will soon show itself.
A certain modern 4x4 is well known for fast clutch wear on the smaller of its two Diesels, well its hardly surprising as first gear is so (too) high and the engine so gutless before the turbo spools up that clutch slipping is the order of the day and many drivers don't realise they are doing it...when delivering these vehicles they would not climb the lorry decks without severe clutch slipping coupled with high revs unless low range was first selected which became standard then demanded practice.
Think hard about how your Focus drives compared to other cars, i have a gut feeling the answer is there, but 5k miles is frankly ridiculous and i too would have got shot long ago.
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I’ve been coasting (in neutral) since way back when we had fuel shortages, and have saved on fuel, engine/gearbox wear - and clutch life thereby. An idllng engine uses negligible gas and Gordon Wilkins of the Observer won a Mobil fuel comp using this method, rather than by flogging in high gear and boiling the coolant! And roasting the clutch… It’s easy to slip into gear for e.g. bends or engine braking.
Dual-mass clutches are an embarrassment to the techies at the dealer in question, otherwise why would they apologise for them, and it’s an obvious embarrassment to the foreman obliged to take customers with failed clutches on a test drive to vet their driving habits. The AA and RAC recovery guys echo the complaints about modern clutches and refer to the high proportion of callouts due to dual-mass clutch collapse, not all in Fords. An RAC man added Peugeot and Mazda. An AA man advised me to go automatic, but what use is an automatic on snowy hills in Derbyshire?
It’s struck me that if I’d done 20000 in a year the car would need a new clutch every 3 months, but the parts would be under warranty… And the car may be 9 yrs old but it’s covered only 35000 (20000 with me) in that time (I’m retired and there’s the Mondeo), so it’s hardly worn out.
It’s such a pity, since it’s a commendable car (the Focus) in many ways. But the fact remains that the friction material is poor, given that the merest slipping
Is accompanied by a smell of burning, unlike with the Mondeo.
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>> the fact remains that the friction material is poor, given that the merest slipping
>> Is accompanied by a smell of burning, unlike with the Mondeo.
Now we're getting somewhere.
The only time i've ever smelled burning clutch (learners and half wits unable to manouever excepted) and seen the accompanying smoke is where new or incompetent transporter drivers would take several attempts to get a car up a particularly steep or awkward deck, or if the engine was dreadfully underpowered like 1.4 Escort, 3cyl Corsa or Fiat 500 with satans gearbox or certain 4x4s left in high range where unless you took a run up the engine didn't produce enough torque to get the vehicle up the slope regardless of revs and the clutch would overheat with the abuse.
Unless you are doing something quite exceptional you should never ever smell clutch.
Either you are doing something wrong which i don't think you are (apart from coasting but we'll agree to disagree there) or the Mondeo would stink too during your use.
What i do suspect is either the engine isn't producing enough low revved torque (doubtful) and you are compensating for this by slipping the clutch, or the pressure plate isn't applying full pressure to the clutch plate for some reason resulting in excessive slip, or the clutch fitted simply isn't big enough to cope and is replaced with an identical (wrong) version each time, i suspect this car has been a problem from day one.
I also suspect a good independant mechanic would have sorted this long ago and not just kept throwing new parts at it as the dealer seems to have done and sounds about right.
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>> Thinking about your particular car, is it particularly weak at low engine revs, is it
>> inclined to stall unless you give it ample throttle as you feed the clutch in ............
I had a 1999 followed by a 2003 2 litre petrol Focus and on both it was almost impossible to stall the engine under normal driving conditions. The only way I could find to do it deliberately was to put it into 1st gear, handbrake on, and lift the clutch pedal without touching the accelerator. The cars would start from rest on the flat in 1st gear without touching the accelerator and would happily travel on the flat in 1st gear without touching the accelerator. The electronic engine management system took care of no-throttle-opening performance admirably.
Last edited by: L'escargot on Wed 24 Jul 13 at 09:54
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>> I had a 1999 followed by a 2003 2 litre petrol Focus and on both
>> it was almost impossible to stall the engine under normal driving conditions. The only way
>> I could find to do it deliberately was to put it into 1st gear, handbrake
>> on, and lift the clutch pedal without touching the accelerator. The cars would start from
>> rest on the flat in 1st gear without touching the accelerator and would happily travel
>> on the flat in 1st gear without touching the accelerator. The electronic engine management system
>> took care of no-throttle-opening performance admirably.
So you never owned a Mk2 Focus which the OP is referring to.
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>> So you never owned a Mk2 Focus which the OP is referring to.
>>
No, but I can't imagine that the 2 litre petrol engine in the Mk2 was markedly different from that in the Mk1. Unless you know different ..............
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Points: 1) My wife took driving lessons with a registered instructor. 2) The driver on Shining Tor progressively slipped the clutch as the wheels lost grip, then let it in as the skidding wheels generated the heat to melt the snow/ice and grip the road, and so on up the hill. Of course it was slow progress but he made it! The stuff lining his clutch got him through. I travelled the same route one winter day in a Cortina when the road was officially closed but got through, with some clutch slip, because there was no other traffic, hence no start-stop (The times I’ve had to dig out other drivers stuck for want of a shovel!). 3) As regards moving off in the Focus, it seems as if the clutch is never going to bite, and trying to get the right revs related to clutch travel and bite point can lead to judder/stall, occasionally, particularly with thick-soled footwear. 4) Don’t slip the clutch, one of you says. But even the Ford letter recognises that there are situations where clutch slip is unavoidable. They have admitted some failures, and the first clutch repair was done under guarantee, but if “…there are no known issues with the clutch material used” (as they say), it follows that it should be as good as e.g. the material on the clutch disk fitted to my Mondeo, whereas it obviously isn’t since the Mondeo clutch hasn’t failed four times in 20000 miles with most of the friction material burnt away . Q.E.D. 5) It’s clear there’s a growing aftermarket for single-mass flywheels, covering a range of car makes, if only because they’re less complicated, hence less likely to fail for one reason or another. 6) I quoted examples of posts in this connection from other forums not so much for what they said as for the fact that they exist. 7) Thanks to those of you have can respond without abuse.
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Perhaps
Breaks
Would
Help!
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Tea breaks, coffee breaks?
Sorry. I'll get my coat.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 25 Jul 13 at 01:28
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Lastword, you are wasting your time. The car is 9 years old, there will be no comeback or action from Ford, The MMRA will also tell you to get lost, and wont help you in the case of a 9 year old car.
Focus clutch failures are clearly NOT an embarrassment to the dealers techies, there are millions of focuses on the road, and if a large proportion were failing it would be national news.
There is clearly either a:something else wrong with the car, or b: something wrong with the ways its being driven. (coasting out of gear is VERY bad driving - unsafe driving actually)
Either way you are, really, flogging a dead horse.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 12 Jul 13 at 10:06
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Had an 07 Focus TDCI. Clutch and DMF changed at 20K. Not built to last.
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>> Had an 07 Focus TDCI. Clutch and DMF changed at 20K. Not built to last.
>>
Yours was a diesel, lastword's is a petrol.
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>> In fact, I coast in neutral (rather than in
>> gear) a lot to save fuel - ...........
If you're that concerned about fuel consumption, why did you buy a 2 litre petrol?
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Because it’s a Ghia (which happened to have a petrol engine), the price was right and they threw in a proper spare (I asked for one) in place of the get-you-to-a-garage standard . I like 2-litre performance and have grown used to having it, as in the Mondeo and the Manta before that. It gives reserve for e.g. when I need to get along sharpish, and I compensate for a brisk stretch in gear, if I want to, by using the momentum achieved to coast along according to the given conditions (traffic, terrain). It’s not a fine art. I mentioned coasting in the first place because, given the opportunities for it here, the failed clutches have not, by some margin, been working for all the miles covered by the car, having had many breaks for cooling down, particularly from the day I chose to remove the undershield to help in this regard.
The dealer’s senior techie’s opinion (25.07.13) is that the d-m flywheel (Sach’s?) doesn’t dissipate heat as well as a solid one would. Couple it to a non-asbestos lining that can’t cope…
I‘m taking the friction plate to a clutch specialist for relining (24000 miles warranted). Then fingers crossed. And I’ve asked the dealer to pay for the complete repair.
Go on - blow a fuse.
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>> Go on - blow a fuse.
The only one blowing a fuse (and his money) is you.
Just get the piece of crap fixed as cheaply as possible and sell it on ASAP.
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>> >> The dealer's story is that ............. "we all need to modify our
>> >> driving habits", ............
>>
>> Did the dealer explain in what way "we all need to modify our driving habits"?
Perhaps the dealer hit the nail on the head. I'd still like to know whether the dealer expanded on his statement.
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You have spent 4 grand on a car that is, at best worth 2.5k. Clearly there is something else wrong with it, you are never going to get economical or reliable use out of it, get rid of it
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What Zero said.
I'd have thought myself unlucky after the first failure, but another one only 5k later and the car would then have become somebody elses problem.
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>> The dealer's story is that "we're all in the same boat" with these new non-asbestos clutch materials
If anything, non asbestos components (that previously contained it) are harder. Hence why brake discs now wear at the same rate as the brake pads.
When I went through 3 replacement clutches in approx 25,000 miles on a 1982 Mk1 Astra following the original one lasting approx 70,000 miles with the same style of driving, the fault was eventually traced to a warped flywheel. Fortunately the replacement clutches were covered by warranty and the only thing I had to fork out for was to have the flywheel skimmed. I sold the Astra shortly afterwards so I have no idea whether the repair to the flywheel worked or not.
Forums would be littered with complaints if there really was an issue with Focus clutches. There is something else wrong that isn't staring the Ford mechanic in the face. As others have said, sell as it's becoming a money pit.
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>> When I went through 3 replacement clutches in approx 25,000 miles on a 1982 Mk1
>> Astra following the original one lasting approx 70,000 miles with the same style of driving,
>> the fault was eventually traced to a warped flywheel. Fortunately the replacement clutches were covered
>> by warranty and the only thing I had to fork out for was to have
>> the flywheel skimmed.
At least each new clutch plate only took about 45 minutes to change!
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I think it's much more likely that there's a problem elsewhere in the release mechanism, and the full clamp load of the pressure plate is never being applied.
Are these cable operated, or hydraulic?
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The poster has reported "well worn friction plates"-not flywheel failures;NC may be on the right track.My Ford non-asbestos clutch-admittedly on a conventional flywheel-is just coming upto 100,000 miles with no concerns.And that's behind a TCI,so no shortage of torque.
Last edited by: jc2 on Sun 14 Jul 13 at 07:51
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Hydraulic clutch I believe.
Just to add, I fried the original DMF on an 05 Mondeo last year at 144k miles - the last 32k of which I had done.
Coasting is mechanically unsympathetic - an unstressed drivetrain in a vehicle running at high road speed is subject to various vibrations for which it's not designed. And as others have said, a fuel injected engine will use no fuel at all on the overrun, but some fuel at idle.
Sounds like an intrinsic problem with your car to me though.
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If it's hydraulic, I would be looking at the flexi hose - checking for internal collapse, and checking that the master cylinder is retracting far enough to uncover the reservoir port.
Effectively, I would be looking for anything that can leave some residual pressure in the system - cracking the bleed nipple after a run would also diagnose this - if fluid spurts out there's a problem, a feeble dribble, and all is well.
Obviously, there could be mechanical / sticking problems in the mechanism at either end of the hydraulic system - either a problem at the pedal end, or with the slave cylinder / release bearing.
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Thanks for the various comments: they provide food for thought.
Pionts: 1) D-m clutch problems may not be widespread or earth-shattering in scale. There may not yet be so much as a groundswell of complaint. But there are distinct rumblings, and they’ve even reached Guardiab Money, who recently had occasion to draw attention to them and the associated cost of repairs. 2) If an unstressed drivetrain in a vehicle running at high road speed is subject to various vibrations for which it's not designed, then the trains in the Mondeo and all the other cars I’ve been happily coasting in for yonks haven’t been any the worse for it. Quite the contrary. When I started cycling it was the thing to ride fixed-wheel, which was all right when racing on the flat. But pedalling downhill at speed? The era of gearwheels and coasting meant we could ride much further faster and still be less tired on a day out.
.*********
From engineering prospective [sic] we carefully monitor the production process and components used at our assembly plants, along with vehicles already in service and replacement parts sold and review quality control processes when required.”
When I bought the car I was not told, nor does the handbook warn, that “the flywheel is affected by heat when the clutch is slipped while driving” to the point that “excess heat” would be generated, apparently irrespective of the degree or duration of slipping, according to FoMoCo, and that this excess heat would damage a seal on some component or other, which then seemingly inevitably causes its lubricant to evaporate and an unspecified bearing to seize, although common sense suggests the flywheel is bound to get hot, particularly in summer, from normal interaction with the clutch plate, and exceedingly so during, say, prolonged high-rev clutch slipping for a hill start with caravan in tow. Hence, if the flywheel/clutch assembly is incapable of dissipating even moderate heat and in consequence the friction material burns off, then the clutch fails with the flywheel seized. But, if there are no known issues with the clutch material used, it follows that it should be as good as e.g. the material on the clutch disk fitted to my Mondeo, whereas it obviously isn’t since the Mondeo clutch hasn’t failed four times in 20000 miles with most of the friction material burnt away − and my driving style is the same for both cars. So, whether the flywheel or the clutch is the basic problem, the combination would seem to be inadequate by comparison with older units, as fitted to previous models. No doubt that explains why (much-cheaper) single-plate conversion kits have been developed – and would they have been if there were no market for them?
Some slipping/heating is inevitable, e.g. when the clutch begins to bite during start-off − and considerable slipping may be necessary to get moving and keep moving in snow/mud. For certain driving conditions one is, of course, advised to start off in second gear and get into as high a gear as possible as soon as possible, which means heavy demands on the clutch and flywheel in terms of load and heat. If the flywheel arrangement on the Focus can’t cope with such requirements it’s not much use, is it?
And, if slipping the clutch is the problem, and I don’t ride the clutch, or slip it for no good reason, the fault lies with the unit fitted – and I must say, after seeing it of the car, it looks a tinny lightweight affair!
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>>>Some slipping/heating is inevitable.... considerable slipping may be necessary to get moving and keep moving in snow/mud. For certain driving conditions one is, of course, advised to start off in second gear and get into as high a gear as soon as possible... heavy demands on the clutch and flywheel in terms of load and heat.
Really? In close to 40yrs driving and around 70 cars I've never had to abuse a clutch in those ways. And that includes cars towing double horse trailers with two horses and working off road with Land Rovers towing 2.5 tons+ keeping moving in mud.
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I've been racking whats left of me brains and i can't recall ever having full clutch failure like this, i've bought a few cars cheaply with knackered clutches and replaced them, and the Volvo 940td estate was at the top of its travel after about 14 years and i used it for towing very heavy stuff so had a new clutch fitted before it could score the solid (thankfully) flywheel, thats it.
As Z and FL, i can't recall ever abusing a clutch in the way described here.
Yes i agree i think we now know why this car has a new clutch every 5k.
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He said he has a Mondeo without the same clutch problem and drives both in the same manner. So you don't know why.
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Fenlander, you’re a genious, but I suggest you try doing some of those things with a Focus like mine.
In May my wife hit gravel on a NT moorland car park in the Mondeo and the car slid off the hard standing and down a slight slope with the front wheels landing in a boggy patch. Neither she nor her friends could extricate the car despite any amount of clutch slipping. I went up there in the Focus with ashes and stuff but several attempts, with more clutch slipping, made matters worse. So I called the RAC, suggesting they send a suitable vehicle with winch and long cable. They sent a standard van whose driver said he was there to assess things. His assessment? That we needed a suitable vehicle with winch and long cable.
With the vehicle hauled clear (by a suitable vehicle, etc) the RAC man chose to check the clutch. “They’ve often been burned out in situations like this,” he said and it was obvious he was referring to cars younger than my 95 Mondeo, whose clutch was little the worse for the mishap. Doesn’t that tell you something?
To get the Focus onto his lowloader recently, the National Plus guy managed to free the jammed gear lever and attempted to reverse the car up the ramp with high revs and lots of slip. Brutal – and he didn’t make it, having no doubt burnt off any friction material left, judging by the smell.
You may not have heard of any Focus clutch failures, JoshSalvage, but FoMoCo have. They said so but claimed they were few relative to numbers, etc. Of course…
My dealer has agreed that repairing the Focus as before is pointless and is checking out traditional “single-mass” conversion kits.
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>
>> You may not have heard of any Focus clutch failures, JoshSalvage, but FoMoCo have. They
>> said so but claimed they were few relative to numbers, etc. Of course…
But you know better, of course. (despite all the evidence to the contrary)
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 20 Jul 13 at 20:05
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Despite evidence to the contrary, Zero? Such as dealers saying the most you can expect with these d-m clutches is 15000 miles?; or Derby Clutch Centre warranting their replacements for only 20000? The fact that I have drawn attention to clutch slipping, including FoMoCo's reference to it doesn't mean I do any more than is necessary. I am car-sympa, e.g. I don't turn the steering wheel unless the road wheels are moving - and the Mondeo's clutch is still going strong after 60000...
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>> Despite evidence to the contrary, Zero? Such as dealers saying the most you can expect
>> with these d-m clutches is 15000 miles?;
They didn't, because everyone else gets more.
or Derby Clutch Centre warranting their replacements for
>> only 20000?
Yes thats standard on replacement parts - what do you expect from back street cowboys 100,000 mile lifetime warranties? Have you asked them what the warranty is on other makes they fit?
The fact that I have drawn attention to clutch slipping, including FoMoCo's reference
>> to it doesn't mean I do any more than is necessary.
Its never necessary in normal driving.
You have been told on here the probable causes of your clutch problems, 1/ your driving, 2/ a possible car problem, but you simply refuse to believe that and resolve either or both.
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So how come, Zero, have I achieved 60000 miles with the Mondeo clutch and comparable distances with the clutches in a variety of previous cars if my driving is at fault in this respect? And I don't slip the clutch in normal driving.I would hardly be car-sympa if I did!
Derby Clutch Centre a back-street outfit? How would you know?
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>> To get the Focus onto his lowloader recently, the National Plus guy managed to free
>> the jammed gear lever and attempted to reverse the car up the ramp with high
>> revs and lots of slip. Brutal – and he didn’t make it, having no doubt
>> burnt off any friction material left, judging by the smell.
I rest my case, so this queen of the breakdowns tried inadequately it would appear to drive a car with an already failing clutch onto a recovery lorry (which will have been fitted with a proper remotely controlled winch) under its own power...where did they find that clown, imagine it driving a proper transporter trying to get 11 new cars in position, the local area would be evacuated for several hours till the smoke and smell cleared..
The description of the failed attempt to extricate the Mondeo again tells me all i need to know, if you abuse a standard not particularly well made car like this it will end up costing money.
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The point is, surely, that the clutch in this standard not-particularly-well-made car is that when its clutch had to be abused it came out of the ordeal little the worse, whereas I couldn't even attempt to haul the Mondeo clear with the Focus for fear of burning its clutch out. According to the dealer's techie, towing and even slow progress in traffic are undesirable because of likely heat effects on the d-mclutch (but the dealer sells tow bars).
I agree about the Nat Plus rescue. The guy seemed more concerned with saving time than my Focus clutch. I got the impression he might have been paid by rescues per day.
The report on the clutch is that there's little friction material left on the clutch plate but the d-m flywheel looks OK. I see, however, that e.g. "CarParts4Less would always replace a Dual Mass Flywheel when replacing a clutch if the vehicle is fitted with one." And I read elsewhere that, d-m clutches being more complicated than single-mass type, inevitably give more trouble.
Unfortunately, a solid-flywheel conversion for the petrol Focus is not yet available. Catch 22?
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>> Unfortunately, a solid-flywheel conversion for the petrol Focus is not yet available. Catch 22?
>
Doesn't that tell you all you need to know? if, as you say, it was such an endemic problem, they would be easily available, wouldn't they.
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>> the National Plus guy managed to free the jammed gear lever
How was the gear lever jammed? Sounds more serious than just a clutch problem to me.
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>> considerable slipping may be necessary to get moving and keep moving in snow/mud. For certain
>> driving conditions
I have never, ever, in 40 years and 3/4 million miles driving, had to considerably slip a clutch.
I think the cause of your clutch failures are slowly becoming clear.
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>> I have never, ever, in 40 years and 3/4 million miles driving, had to considerably
>> slip a clutch.
>>
>> I think the cause of your clutch failures are slowly becoming clear.
>>
Seconded. Some of us were brought up on BMC vehicles with those graphite "self-adjusting" ablative release bearings. If driven using the clutch only to change gear they lasted the life of the clutch which, back in those days, was about 30,000 miles. Making a habit of riding or slipping the clutch meant you'd be lucky to get 12,000 out of one.
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Strange, I've never seen a clutch problem on a Focus..
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Nothing to do with the clutch but Ford ceased to use the terms "FoMoCo" and also "EnFo" in the UK well over forty years ago when all the shares owned outside the USA were bought by the parent company.
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The OP said above:
"Some slipping/heating is inevitable, e.g. when the clutch begins to bite during start-off − and considerable slipping may be necessary to get moving and keep moving in snow/mud. For certain driving conditions one is, of course, advised to start off in second gear and get into as high a gear as possible as soon as possible, which means heavy demands on the clutch and flywheel in terms of load and heat. If the flywheel arrangement on the Focus can’t cope with such requirements it’s not much use, is it?
And, if slipping the clutch is the problem, and I don’t ride the clutch, or slip it for no good reason, the fault lies with the unit fitted – and I must say, after seeing it of the car, it looks a tinny lightweight affair! "
Anyone who starts in second gear with a modern clutch will wreck it.
And anyone who quotes starting in second gear obviously does it.
Driver error. No wonder the garage commented on the OP's driving style.. he is driving in an outmoded fashion it would appear.. The Mondeo is of course much older.
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Madf, the dealer’made no comment on my driving style. I refer you to an earlier post. Before he knew anything about my driving he said we’re all in the same boat and need to revise our driving habits because these modern clutches can’t withstand heat to the degree that the asbestos type couid, so towing, slow progress in a holdup, etc are undesirable. How do you entirely avoid the latter?
I don’t start in second gear unless I have to. i.e. when it’s impossible to get going in snow/mud in first. Is the recommended procedure outmoded, i.e. get into the highest gear possible to keep moving without wheel slip? One winter I watched a van crawl all the way up the old road on Shining Tor, near Macclesfield, by slipping the clutch so as to spin the road wheels, thus creating enough heat to melt the snow and ice that had stranded the rest of us. I doubt the van would have made it with a modern clutch.
As for the comment by someone that forums would be littered with complaints in this regard if there was a real problem, well, they’re sprinkled with quite a few, viz (1) Torque reactions from 1st to 2nd change (that the DMF is supposed to absorb) do the most damage. Ford's new cure for this is to abandon DMFs (for the Fiesta diesel) and reduce the torque reaction by electronics. 2) I had the same problem. I read on the net about this guy in Pretoria, an ex Nissan mechanic. What a great guy. He is honest and reliable. The best part is he is reasonable with his pricing. He is charging R6300 for the clutch and guarantees the flywheel wouldn't give me problems again. 3) Because the status quo affords a lot of extra profit to retailers and manufacturers and effectively encourages them to continue to produce or sell poor quality rubbish, They financially benefit from doing so through extra sales when they don’t last - extra repair business.
Here, by the way, is Ford’s reply to me: “The flywheel is affected by heat when the clutch is slipped while driving; this excess heat damages the seal on the component which in turn causes the lubrication [sic] t0 evaporate and the bearing to seize. If frictional material such as clutch or Dual Mass flywheel concerns are encountered, the most frequently found cause is the operation of the clutch system causing unnecessary loadings/stress or wear to it coupled with unintended excessively high operational temperatures with subsequent clutch debris found (e.g. excessive slipping when pulling away, holding the vehicle on hills with the clutch etc), effectively clutch frictional materials should only wear when frictional slippage is occurring generating heat, intentionally or unintentionally."
Should that response have been allowed off the premises? The message seems to be: use your Ford only for gentle jaunts on the flat, but not during a heat wave and only on certain days in winter. A holiday in the Alps or even in the Lakes or Scotland? No way.
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I would read Ford's response as "DON'T SLIP THE CLUTCH!!!".And that alone.
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>> One winter I watched a van crawl all the way up the old road on Shining Tor, near Macclesfield, by slipping the clutch so as to spin the road wheels
You don't need to slip a clutch to spin wheels. You can do that with the clutch fully out. Sounds like the van driver was a numpty.
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>> >> One winter I watched a van crawl all the way up the old road
>> on Shining Tor, near Macclesfield, by slipping the clutch so as to spin the road
>> wheels
>>
>> You don't need to slip a clutch to spin wheels. You can do that with
>> the clutch fully out. Sounds like the van driver was a numpty.
>>
Probably a fleet van and the driver didn't give a monkey's about how many clutches he wore out.
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>>One winter I watched a van crawl all the way up the old road on Shining Tor, near Macclesfield, by slipping the clutch so as to spin the road wheels, thus creating enough heat to melt the snow and ice
That statement leads me to think you don't really understand or are unable to explain yourself.
Slipping the clutch could be used to PREVENT the wheels spinning.
Spinning the wheels to melt snow and ice would be such a slow procedure as to make progress unbearable.
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>> Spinning the wheels to melt snow and ice would be such a slow procedure
>> as to make progress unbearable.
>>
Actually bathtub, I did that once to great effect. After a long and sphincter-tightening slide backwards in a Transit Luton, I got it round a corner where it came to rest on a slight upgrade. Forwards not possible due to lack of traction. Turning around not possible due to lack of space. More backwards not a safe option due to it being a dead end I'd got the thing into.
I resorted to selecting 3rd and revving the objects off it for a couple of minutes, inching forwards as the spinning rear wheels melted the ice. Then rolled back a few feet and gave it the full nine yards.
The short patch of good surface I'd created gave me enough forward momentum to clear the crest and get going.
The young lad riding shotgun that day was deeply impressed.
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>> Should that response have been allowed off the premises? The message seems to be: use
>> your Ford only for gentle jaunts on the flat, but not during a heat wave
>> and only on certain days in winter. A holiday in the Alps or even in
>> the Lakes or Scotland? No way.
You really manage to read and hear stuff that does not exist don't you. That reply says 'Stop being a numpty and abusing your clutch"
I see the wife went off the road, did you teach her to drive as well?
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>>Torque reactions from 1st to 2nd change (that the DMF is supposed to absorb) do the most damage.
Where did you find this nonsense? (I can guess!)
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"Torque reactions from 1st to 2nd change (that the DMF is supposed to absorb) do the most damage.
"Where did you find this nonsense? (I can guess)"
So edify us all by explaining why it's nonsense. And have a guess...
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>> Where did you find this nonsense? (I can guess!)
I didn't guess, google gave the answer - HJ.
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=71463#m825234
He says right at the start "Clutch and DMF failure is always partially down to the way the vehicle has been driven. Some are more vulnerable than others but the driver is always partly responsible"
Lastword doesn't want to accept that he's partly to blame because of his driving style though and that it's someone else's fault (Ford).
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 25 Jul 13 at 12:50
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>> Lastword doesn't want to accept that he's partly to blame because of his driving style
>> though and that it's someone else's fault (Ford).
>>
The big question is ~ will he get the last word?
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That the problem is down to driving style is a smoke screen. Some drivers will be more robust than others but dealers weren’t bumbling on about that and driving style generally before the advent of d-m clutches and non-asbestos linings,
At the specialist clutch reliners the desk guy simply took matching items from a stack of relined parts, intimating that this line might not make his fortune but was certainly a nice little earner – for which he had off-the shelf answers. Failures were so common he was ready for them.
The dealers should sort it out with the makers/suppliers, and we should be pressurising both by every means possible to that end.
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>> That the problem is down to driving style is a smoke screen.
>> The dealers should sort it out with the makers/suppliers.
Yawn. A bad driver always blames someone or something else. It's never their own fault.
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“Yawn, A bad driver always blames someone or something else. It's never their [?] own fault.”
A cheap shot – and about as useful in this discussion as Clarks saying you’re partly responsible for the rapid wear of their shoes because you’re wearing them and suggesting you learn how to pussyfoot. I could use your logic to argue that a company which supplies equipment unfit for purpose always puts the blame elsewhere but e.g. Guardian Money has beaten me to it in this context by referring to the extraordinary excuses manufacturers resort to rather than own up and pay up.
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At the end of the day YOU are one of VERY FEW people having problems with clutches out of HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of Focii
.
You have been told what the problem is - its your driving or a problem with your particular car. Nothing you have said or done or any other evidence has done anything to change those two simple facts, facts that you can not accept for some unknown reason.
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>> two simple facts.
1. He likes the last word.
2. Troll.
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Be interesting to hear how the clutch is after this if stronger friction materials are to be used, i doubt if it will be sintered iron fierce but if the bloke puts the right stuff in your clutch slipping and abusing days are over.
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>> My 05 Focus Ghia had done 15000 when I bought it in o6. It
>> has failed 4 dual-mass clutches in 20000 miles since at circa £1000 per repair (inc
>> flywheel) at a main Ford dealer.
One question you need to ask your dealer is whether the replacement parts were genuine Ford parts. Just because they're a Ford dealer it doesn't prevent them from using non-Ford parts. For an older car they might think they're doing the customer a favour by fitting cheaper non-Ford parts. For example, in the past I've been offered non-Ford wiper blades, but I insisted that the dealer got me genuine Ford wiper blades. Now don't nit-pick and tell me that Ford don't make wiper blades. I'm talking about wiper blades in Ford packaging.
Last edited by: L'escargot on Wed 24 Jul 13 at 10:43
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There is no requirement on a Ford dealer to use Ford parts;the only requirement is,if he uses non-Ford parts,he must offer the same guarantee that Ford would on their parts.
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There is no such thing as a "dual-mass clutch";it's a standard clutch used on a dual-mass flywheel and works the same way.
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There is no inherent problem with Ford Focus petrol DMFs and clutches, certainly not to cause failure at this rate.
Has anyone actually done any investigative work beyond replacement of the failed component(s)?
There are numerous components on a car that can be ruined by faults elsewhere. Replacing the failed component without fixing the fault that caused it to fail leads to a situation very much like this, where the component repeatedly fails, and will continue to do so until the underlying fault is found and corrected.
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OK, so I’ve used “d-m clutch” as shorthand for “d-mFW/clutch combo”. Apologies.
If there is no inherent problem with the d-m FWs why is there an eager aftermarket in conversion kits for a range of cars using them? And why did the AA and RAC recovery guys change the conversation to automatics when I quizzed them about number of callouts linked to such combo failures? (The first time I heard the term “dual mass” was from one of these guys in relation to the probable cause of my predicament.)
The dealer’s senior techie is firmly of the opinion that the basic problem is the d-m flywheel’s inability to dissipate heat as effectively as a single-mass unit does, hence burnout of the clutch lining. Curiously, though, and despite the brutal handling by the Nat Plus recovery man, as described earlier, the d-m flywheel this time is re-usable according to the techie, and I can verify that it looks good and with no blue evidence of overheating as before.
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DMF in our Golf lasted 126k and was finally ruined by me driving it for 3k or more with a slipping clutch.
I wonder how many single mass conversions provide any guarantees on the crankshaft.
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DP, was your VW clutch pre-ban type i.e. did the 126k lining contain asbestos?
Bienvenu, Swiss Tony. Enchantẽ de faire votre connaissance et de lire des mots si pertinents comme les votres sur ce sujet.
So if it ain’t mainly the d-m FW then it’s down to the clutch friction material. There’s been no evidence of slipping (increase in revs/loss of speed with increase In load), nor warning of heavy lining wear as indicated by earlier bite with shorter pedal travel. Just sudden failure with strong smell. I wouldn’t want to risk the Focus on a trip to my friends just over the hill from Geneva until the problem’s sorted.
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>> DP, was your VW clutch pre-ban type i.e. did the 126k lining contain asbestos?
>>
It's a 2003 car, so I doubt it had asbestos linings.
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>> Bienvenu, Swiss Tony. Enchantẽ de faire votre connaissance et de lire des mots si pertinents
>> comme les votres sur ce sujet.
Welcome, Swiss Tony. Pleased to meet you and read if relevant words as yours on this.???????????
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If I may: "Welcome, Swiss Tony. Delighted to make your acquaintance and to read some words as relevant as yours on this subject."
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I cannot believe that there isn't something wrong in the assembly or the actuation of this clutch, as N-C speculated a while back. Did you check if there was still pressure behind the release mechanism as he suggested?
I have known a least one person who could wear clutches out, but he habitually waited on a particular hill for a couple of minutes at a time while holding on the clutch. He used to get about 8,000 miles out of one.
Any normal driver who hasn't had clutch problems before and has the problems here is clearly not the cause.
Non-abused, non-faulty clutches take a lot of wearing out. My brother has a 200,000 mile V70 D5, 55 plate. He recently changed the clutch while he had it in bits because of a leaking slave cylinder. He estimated it still had 2/3 of the lining left. And he lives in a hilly area.
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>> The dealer’s senior techie is firmly of the opinion that the basic problem is the d-m flywheel’s inability to dissipate heat as effectively as a single-mass unit does, hence burnout of the clutch lining.
A clutch, when used correctly, generates very little heat.
Heat in a clutch is caused by friction - a fully released clutch has a small amount of 'drag' ie friction/heat
A fully engaged clutch has no friction. (no slip)
However, a slipping clutch creates a lot of heat....
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"A fully engaged clutch has no friction."
So how does a friction clutch work?
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>> So how does a friction clutch work?
>>
You engage it without abusing it, if its not engaging correctly then a driver of you experience should be able to detect slippage.
Theres only one thing causing wear and thats slippage, either your abuse (and your description of the failed towing out of the stricken Mondeo is evidence enough for me) or some fault not allowing full clutch pressure.
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>> So how does a friction clutch work?
By friction - obviously.
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“By friction - obviously.”
But the statement “A fully engaged clutch has no friction” begs the obvious question. So I asked it - and got the obvious answer, of course, but no answer from Swiss Tony.
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>>
>> “By friction - obviously.”
>>
>> But the statement “A fully engaged clutch has no friction” begs the obvious question. So
>> I asked it - and got the obvious answer, of course, but no answer from
>> Swiss Tony.
>>
>>
My 1st visit to this site for a couple of days...
Perhaps I badly worded that.. because of course when fully engaged there will be 100% of the possible friction, ie no slip, centre plate and pressure plate/flywheel revolve as one.
When the clutch isn't fully engaged, the the slip creates heat, the more slip, the more heat... zero slip no heat.
I did think (mistakenly it seems) that my earlier statement would be read as meaning no slipping..
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"...will continue to do so until the underlying fault is found and corrected."
Trouble is the dealer's man insists theunderlying problem is the d-m FW's inability to dissipate heat as effectively as the the s-m does, etc.
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I have an image of a dealer sitting in the corner, head in hands, rocking backwards and forwards and humming to himself.
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>> Trouble is the dealer's man insists theunderlying problem is....
If I were you, I'd get a 2nd opinion from another dealer. You wouldn't keep going back to the same doctor for another hip replacement every year would you.
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>>d-m FW's inability to dissipate heat
Other than fear of new technology, what is the evidence of this problem being caused by heat? Are there any blueing marks? Is the clutch friction material burnt? Is there any actual failure of the flywheel? Any sign of escaped lubricant?
If the flywheel truly were the cause, there would be hundreds, if not thousands of people with this problem. This clearly isn't the case.
Why do you seem to WANT the fault to be the dual mass flywheel? You say that you have an engineering background, but, I would say that the way you've approached this problem is anything but logical and open minded.
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Evidence of this problem being caused by heat? As I said (29 July): “Curiously, though, and despite the brutal handling by the Nat Plus recovery man, as described earlier, the d-m flywheel this time is re-usable according to the techie, and I can verify that it looks good and with no blue evidence of overheating as before.”
Friction material burnt? Definitely, as evidenced by considerable stink at each time of failure and then by inspection. Sign of escaped lubricant? No.
Lots with the same problem? A fair few at this dealer, I gather – and why the eager aftermarket in s-m FWs for a range of cars if there’s no great problem?
I don’t WANT the d-m FW to be the cause. DP referred to underlying fault. The dealer’s man says that lies with the d-m FW (although the evidence from the latest failure would seem to contradict him). And, as I speculated earlier, if it ain’t the d-m FW, then the friction material must be the problem, which the recent failure would seem to confirm, assuming identical components have been used from repair to repair.
What I WANT is for the dealer to sort it and pay for it.
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>>then the friction material must be the problem
No - that doesn't logically follow.
The friction material might be the problem, but, there are other possibilities.
When you inspected the clutch plate and looked at the friction material, what did you see? What did you see on the flywheel side lining, and what did you see on the pressure plate side lining?
>>why the eager aftermarket in s-m FWs for a range of cars if there’s no great problem?
There are some applications of dual mass flywheels where the FLYWHEEL itself has a short life, and some misguided types replace them with a solid flywheel. However, in YOUR case, there's NO evidence that there's any problem with the flywheel.
The dual mass flywheels which tend to be most problematic are diesel engine applications where the sudden onset of combustion gives rise to rapid torque fluctuations at the crankshaft, i.e., where the dual mass flywheel is working MUCH harder than in your petrol application.
Beware listening to mechanics (and certain motoring journalists). While there are some good ones, there's a tendency to blame the most complex part of a system, or any new technology in a system. We've all seen or heard of this with garages replacing electronic control units which are perfectly OK.
The same happened with hot wire air mass flow meters - I remember lots being returned to the service department at Cowley in the late 1980s when they were introduced on Montegos. When tested, ALL were OK.
It's clear that this isn't an ordinary fault, and if you want to get to the bottom of this, you're going to have to start thinking a little bit less lazily, and a bit more like an engineer.
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“…then the friction material must be the problem.” I’m reflecting the dealer guy’s logic here, viz: if failure does not originate with the clutch or whatever, leaving the FW as the culprit, then it’s stems from the FW.
Answers: virtually no material on FW side; as good as new on the other.
Question: In an application where a d-mass FW “itself has a short life”, why is it misguided to replace it with a solid flywheel? Given the inherent short life, why use another d-m unit?
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I believe that this the first time that you have said that "virtually no material on FW side; as good as new on the other."
If that is the case surely it means that the clamping effect of the clutch mechanism is being impeded-only a limited number of things could cause this. An inspection by a competent engineer should find the cause.
How about repeated faulty assembly by the garage (ie the same mistake every time)- that is the only constant apart from your driving style. It would seem that your local garage is the only one that has ever seen multiple failures.
When you coast do you do it in neutral or with the clutch down?
Last edited by: pmh on Fri 9 Aug 13 at 07:00
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>> I believe that this the first time that you have said that "virtually no material
>> on FW side; as good as new on the other."
An inspection by a competent engineer should find the cause.''
Agreed, there is something wrong here and just bunging another clutch in won't stop this happening again.
As has been said before this needs a proper mechanic to investigate whats really happening, or bung a clutch in and then get rid before history repeats itself if the same garage you normally use does the job.
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And for anybody who thinks they understand a dmf this link makes for interesting reading!
tinyurl.com/lukdmfguide
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>> And for anybody who thinks they understand a dmf this link makes for interesting reading!
Yes that is interesting, note that the suggested remedy for a worn starter ring is to replace the DMF, not sure if thats for possible DMF internal contamination reasons or part of the new throwaway and replace it all culture.
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>>Answers: virtually no material on FW side; as good as new on the other.
That's interesting new information.
Were there any sign of contact between the clutch plate and the fylwheel other than via the friction material?
What is the fit between the clutch plate splines and those on the gearbox input shaft like?
Are the gearbox input shaft slpines worn (at all) ?
Other possibilities; weak pressure plate, incomplete release via a mechanical problem, and incomplete release via a hydraulic problem, and, incorrect driving style
>> why is it misguided to replace it with a solid flywheel?
Short answer - the powertrain is designed as a system - it's a complicated system with much more happening, particularly with respect to oscillations than are dreamt of in the philosophies of those who make, sell, and fit solid flywheels.
See the excellent link posted by pmh, and you'll see on page 9, it mentions how the primary flywheel reduces the mass moment of inertia "seen" by the crankshaft.
More technical answer - The gearbox and final drive have been designed with the filtering function of the DMF in mind - by replacing with a solid flywheel, the loads on these gears will be increased beyond that envisaged during design and experienced during development. The crankshaft is susceptible to torsional vibration, particularly on diesel engines, and replacing the DMF with a solid flywheel changes the resonant frequency and mode shape of the crank's first resonance. This means that a) the torsional damper on the crank nose will now be mis-tuned, and instead of reducing vibrations will be making them worse, and the crank's torsional vibration will not be well damped. This increase in crankshaft torsional vibration can significantly reduce the fatigue life of the crank.
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Like NC I'd be looking at the gearbox input shaft splines, flywheel retaining bolt heads (an earlier post said it's recommended they're replaced each time), are they the right bolts and are the heads too deep and interfering with the clutch plate? Most obviously is the clutch plate the right way round?
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I am pleased to see the conclusions reached by NC & BT. I had reached a similar conclusion but wondered if I had missed something in earlier posts. So much for the OP posts and us believing he had an engineering background and then finding he was witholding probably the most important observation in the whole thread!
He seems to have gone very quiet this morning.
Last edited by: pmh on Fri 9 Aug 13 at 12:49
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>> He seems to have gone very quiet this morning.
There could be a good reason for that. Most of his replies seem to be late at night/early hours of the morning.
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>> Other possibilities; .............. incorrect driving style
lastword has already stated that the dealer said "we all need to modify our driving habits", but he (lastword) didn't explain what the dealer meant by that.
Last edited by: L'escargot on Fri 9 Aug 13 at 13:18
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Uneven wear on the clutch plate-only mentioned now after several weeks-could be caused by clutch plate not sliding correctly on g/box first motion shaft or clutch plate fitted wrong way round.Both could cause uneven wear and slipping but are nothing to do with dual mass flywheel.
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"...he had an engineering background and then finding he was withholding probably the most important observation…!”
# I only recently had the opportunity to inspect the offending items.
# I have been driving for some 50 years here and in France, Germany, Switzerland, Italy and Denmark and in anything from a Ford 10; Popular/Escort; 1.6l Cortina/100E; 1.6l Cavalier/2.0l Hatchback; 2.0l Opel Manta; and everything from Mini to Merck, manual and auto, British, French, German and Japanese in oil tests with a global US lubricants corporation. and have changed a clutch in my time. From achool i spent 13 years in engineering as a turner, grinder, special-machine op, etc and I acquired an HNC Mech by after-work study So I necessarily have an engineering background but, unlike some, I don’t profess to know everything, which is why I entered this forum in the first place.
# Failures 1, 2 and 3 were associated with sudden loss of drive (after unhurried one-mile journeys from cold), suggesting abrupt loss of remaining clutch friction lining. The clutch just went completely (no drive, drag, noise). Failure 4 started with loss of gear selection; with the engine off I was able to get into first, where it jammed, until the Nat Plus guy wrenched it free. The clutch plate could be heard scraping the DMF, then screeching when he revved up.
# No, I don’t coast holding the clutch pedal down. Apart from anything else, that would be tiring, given the long stretches of coasting I can profit from here.
# The Focus is back on the road. They cleaned out the DMF, deglazed the friction surface and installed the specialist reliner’s plate. £320 total, which is about what they charged last year for replacing the gear selector rod when two of its springs broke. I paid up because I need the Focus whilst I do some work on the Mondeo (which I’d hoped to dump but have had to retain because the Focus has so often needed attention, i.e. alternator (warranty); window seal (warranty); battery (original underpowered); tyres leakng round valve seats - not forgetting the DMF/clutch saga and the replaced selector rod.)
I see from another site that some repairers have been describing DMF failures as clutch failures, and I read: "What is the motor industry trying to hide regarding the use of the DMF in modern diesel-engined vehicles and why are they failing? Why can't LUK and Land Rover be honest with their customers regarding items that are faulty by design and why can't they solve the problem?" That's what I'm bitching about in relation to my petrol Focus.
My fellow bitcher goes on: "... an ex-student of mine has experienced the failure of a dual mass flywheel from a different manufacturer, on a Mitsubishi Shogun - cost of the replacement part £1514 + VAT. He could not afford the cost of a new part and the garage welded both halves of the flywheel together and fitted a new clutch. He reports that it drives very much the same as with the original DMF. This drastic action is being carried out in the USA on certain vehicles and also on Ford Transit DMFs by some garages in the U.K. Clearly something must be wrong with the design of these flywheels or the materials used in their construction? Surely the cost of such failures should be reimbursed by motor vehicle manufacturers, if necessary by governmental legislation?"
Exactly!
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>> Exactly!
lastword, please comment on my post of Fri 9 Aug 13 09:11.
Last edited by: L'escargot on Thu 15 Aug 13 at 07:02
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# I did, earlier on in this discussion: towing, holdups (because of repeated engagement-disengagement with heat buildup presumably), riding/slipping the clutch, holding it on hills, were all undesirable things to do, the man said, but he didn’t explain how to entirely avoid any or all of these on occasion, and had no answer when I asked why they sold and fitted towbars.
# AlI I did was google something like “DMF problems” and a site (Honest John?) came up, with my fellow bitcher elaborating his Range Rover DMF experience and echoing my complaint.
# The more I explore this subject the more it seems that makers are testing their DMFs at our inconvenience and expense and that they have way to go to get it right – I really can’t light-foot it any more than I am doing and yet the DMF/clutch keeps failing. It’s evident the techie and his mates are not happy with these units and are at pains to install them as they should be installed, with new and correct bolts, etc. We’ve discussed the matter at some length and they don’t seem incompetent. Clearly, they’d love to find the answer/s because the we’re-all-in-the-same-boat-and-must-modify-our-driving-habits guff is sticking in their throats. They’re as keen to see how I fare with the different clutch lining as I am.
What bothers me is that the DMF may have been affected in the latest episode such that it plays up soon and wrecks the experiment.
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I think you're making this up.
Its just too ridiculous to be serious or true.
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It's just too ridiculous..."
So google "DMF problem – Range Rover." and read some of he comments on the Pistonheads site.
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Like I'm going to put *any* effort into this?
I think you're enjoying yourself and making this stuff up. I'm comfortable with that view and feel no need to check Google to justify or disprove my opinion.
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I'm surprised you didn't end with: "Yah boo! So there!" A friend thought I was making it up until I showed him the bills.
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Well if even your "friend" thinks that, then there just might be a message for you in there somewhere.
Yah boo! So there, nyaah nyaah.
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You got any friends left? thought they had all been bored to death.
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>> AlI I did was google something like “DMF problems” and a site (Honest John?) came up,
I'm somewhat puzzled why you haven't asked (or the last time I looked you hadn't anyway) your question on the HJ forum if that was the source of your original information.
I agree with Mark. Somethings not right here. I thought we had finally got away from the shenanigans between the two forums. I do hope this isn't a windup.
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Do a search on his e-mail address Dave, see what you come up with.
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>> I don’t profess to know everything, which is why I entered this forum in the first place.
Have you also sought advice from other forums? If so, were the responses similar to those here? Could you provide a link so we can see their responses to you?
>> No, I don’t coast holding the clutch pedal down. Apart from anything else, that would be tiring, given the long stretches of coasting I can profit from here.
It's already been mentioned here that coasting in a modern car doesn't save you any money in fuel so you are not profitting. If anything it adds to the wear and tear on the braking system instead of just letting the engine do the braking for you, as well as not being in proper control of your car.
>> I paid up
Because you had to. There is no way that they would entertain doing the work for nothing.
Now that the car is fixed, get rid of it ASAP.
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>>>Now that the car is fixed, get rid of it ASAP.<<<
Dont encourage him to get rid, we need him to take take it to a proper engineer who will forensically determine what is actually wrong with it. That should put all of his pre-conceptions to bed. (And satisfy our curiosity!)
Last edited by: pmh on Thu 15 Aug 13 at 10:42
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>> Have you also sought advice from other forums?
So that's a no then is it?
Lastword! More like Walter Mitty IMHO.
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But what do I replace it with that will not replicate the problem, more or less, when the most that can be hoped for is 15000, 20000, or 24000m clutch life, depending on whom you consult? Which make or model would you recommend or whose DMF/clutch is well reported? The Focus was to be have been my last car, the one to see me out. Just now it’s sending me to an early grave… And another similar expenditure (£10000) would more than clean out my emergency nest egg.
Mr Ecs may be right. If my dealer is replacing both DMF and clutch with the same as before, that could be it! Time may tell with the new clutch lining.
A propos quality, a professor friend, ex Sheffield Uni, tells me they tested equivalent engine parts from an Alfa and a Ford: the Alfa won handsomely. On another tack, I learned at Ransome & Marles that they’d suggested to a major US/UK carmaker, that, if a certain diameter of a journal for a new car were to be reduced by one thou, a standard off-the-shelf bearing would suit. The response: "No dice, we can’t change all our drawings." So R&M had to produce a non-standard bearing, which could then be obtained only through the carmaker at double what it could have cost.
And so it goes. I don’t need to make it up. I mean, “We’ll all have to change our driving styles.” I ask you…
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>> But what do I replace it with that will not replicate the problem
How about another Mondeo?
Right at the start you said "My Mondeo's clutch is still going strong at 60000"
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>>A propos quality, a professor friend, ex Sheffield Uni, tells me they tested equivalent engine parts from an Alfa and a Ford: the Alfa won handsomely
Tested what?
Tested how?
Assessed against what?
Unless the tests were of clutch lining life, how is this relevant to your problem?
"won" ???
>>On another tack, I learned at Ransome & Marles
Again, how is this relevant to your problem?
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Crankshaft and piston rods were examined metallurgically to see which best for job in terms of carbon, carbide, etc and whether forged or cast. “Won” in the sense of which did best in the comparison. The comment related to remarks about quality, cars made to a price, crap parts, etc.
The R&M comment related to remarks made about industry practices that don’t favour the end-user. On a check list for the Focus I noticed £272 (ex VAT) for replacing a cracked cast-aluminiujm air-con pipe. I said I’d replace it and the pipe was billed at £22.31 (before VAT), which compares with £40 (incl VAT) as quoted at the dealer’s parts desk some weeks before. When I queried the £272 I was told it included for a rubber pipe joining the aluminium one, by a route round the engine, to the air-con unit, and for 2 hours labour. If the rubber pipe, at £80, was not required, it would not be charged for, they said. But, if lacking some background knowledge, and not having been under the car myself, I could have OK’d the £272 and been charged it, irrespective.
When i worked for a Midlands research outfit I was introduced to a highly rated young mechanic, with wife, baby and large dog. He drove round the block with me and confirmed that the noise I'd been told came from the rear-axle banjo of my 1.6 Cortina was actually emanating from the wheel bearings. He replaced both one evening for a fiver. Sickened by what went on at a large Midlands-city dealer, he'd gone back to work for a market-town garage where they did an honest job, so he could sleep happy.
“…or, it's a driving-style problem.” Like what? If it’s slip wouldn’t I have noticed it? Loss of speed, need to change gear?
Get rid and buy a Mondeo, has been suggested, but it would have to be one no later than 04 for a clutch with asbestos lining and it might have a DMF and would probably need new discs and pads and shocks and tyres.
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>>Like what? If it’s slip wouldn’t I have noticed it?
I dunno, was it slapping you around the head with a baseball bat whilst screaming "I AM SLIPPING" at the top of its voice?
Because if not I'm guessing you might have missed it.
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>>“Won” in the sense of which did best in the comparison.
So, actually a meaningless comparison when looked at in engineering terms - a much better comparison would be which part is closest to just being adequate - any over-engineering means that the customer is paying for something they don't need (or reducing the profit a manufacturer should make on a car). Phrased another way, any fool can make an adequate part for a pound, it takes a good engineer to make it for 5p.
>>The comment related to remarks about quality, cars made to a price, crap parts, etc.
Again, the criterion is adequacy. We would all like to run about in cars engineered to Aerospace standards for the price of a wheelbarrow, but, the makers have to make money to carry on making cars - they aren't a charity.
>>The R&M comment related to remarks made about industry practices that don’t favour the end-user.
Again, the motor industry is not there for your or my benefit. Consider the "just one thou" point - making that change might have ruined an already negotiated deal with another supplier of a mating part. Should the manufacturer take that hit?
>>On a check list for the Focus...
Yes, garages are a bit lazy, and some are a bit bent. I'm surprised that you're surprised.
>>When i worked for a Midlands research outfit...
Again, everyone wants their car serviced by a Cambridge Phd, but only to pay the rates for a toilet cleaner - it's not going to happen on a large scale is it?
“…or, it's a driving-style problem.” Like what? If it’s slip wouldn’t I have noticed it? Loss of speed, need to change gear?
There are lots of ways to abuse a clutch - setting off in 2nd is a really good way to get some heat into the clutch. Even light pressure on the pedal will reduce the clamp load significantly. Abuse of the clutch by you can't be discounted, because no-one but you knows how you treat the clutch.
The DMF angle you're trying to push is a red-herring. The question is why is this clutch slipping - that's the only way to get enough heat in there.
Last edited by: Number_Cruncher on Wed 21 Aug 13 at 20:10
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For short duration slipping, say, less that 10 seconds, the mass of metal in the contacting surfaces does not significantly affect the temperature reached in any clutch engagement event.
If there are no mechanical causes for the load on the flywheel side and the pressure plate side of the clutch being different, then, the differential wear pattern observed may point to the flywheel side getting hotter.
Putting these two ideas together suggests that to produce differential wear, the slipping which must be happening to wear these clutches is not a short term event, i.e., not normal clutch use.
So, the possibilities remain, that there's a problem with the pressure plate not developing enough clamp force (which may in itself be caused by a problem with the release mechanism), or, it's a driving style problem.
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>> What I WANT is for the dealer to sort it and pay for it.
Its not going to happen this time, like it didn't happen the last time, or the time before that. And its not going to happen next time either. And bitching on here is not going to make it happen.
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>> My 05 Focus Ghia had done 15000 when I bought it in o6. It
>> has failed 4 dual-mass clutches in 20000 miles since at circa £1000 per repair .....
If I had a car which suffered an expensive-to-repair failure and it happened a second time I'd sell it immediately. I certainly wouldn't keep it to the point at which the failure had occurred four times.
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You're lucky you can afford a new car. Some have to make do.
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you dont "make do" at a higher cost than a getting another car.
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>> Some have to make do.
>>
It won't be long before it will cost another £1000 to repair the 5th failure.
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I'd lay a bet L'es, that if you keep your Dagenham Dustbin for a few years, that you'll need a new clutch before it reaches 30K. You'll know the sign, it smells like burnt onions.
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>> I'd lay a bet L'es, that if you keep your Dagenham Dustbin for a few
>> years, that you'll need a new clutch before it reaches 30K. You'll know the sign,
>> it smells like burnt onions.
>>
My last Focus still had the original clutch when I sold it at nearly 100,000 miles. In over 50 years of motoring I've never had a clutch fail.
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>> I'd lay a bet L'es, that if you keep your Dagenham Dustbin for a few
>> years, that you'll need a new clutch before it reaches 30K. You'll know the sign,
>> it smells like burnt onions.
I bet he doesent.
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>> I bet he doesent.
>>
Me too, doesn't abuse his car so it lasts.
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>> >> I bet he doesent.
>> >>
>>
>> Me too, doesn't abuse his car so it lasts.
He does try to beat big motorbikes off the lights though.
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>> He does try to beat big motorbikes off the lights though.
>>
Thats only exercising the car with the odd Italian tune up..;)
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>> I'd lay a bet L'es, that if you keep your Dagenham Dustbin for a few
>> years, that you'll need a new clutch before it reaches 30K. You'll know the sign,
>> it smells like burnt onions.
>>
Yesterday as I was driving through town I noticed the smell of burning onions, but then I realised that I had just passed a hotdog stand.
;-)
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>> I'd lay a bet L'es, that if you keep your Dagenham Dustbin ...........
It wasn't made at Dagenham. To the best of my knowledge it was made in Germany.
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>>
>> It wasn't made at Dagenham. To the best of my knowledge it was made in
>> Germany.
>>
Ah, a German Garbage Bin.
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>> You're lucky you can afford a new car. Some have to make do.
>>
I had to save for ten years to buy my present car. That was ten years of holding in my horns feelers and being frugal. It's surprising what you can achieve in ten years if you set yourself a target and stick to it. You should try it.
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How do you know I haven't been frugal. You don't know me old chap or my financial situation. Stick to the topic in hand.
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>> Stick to the topic in hand.
>>
Yes Mr Ecs. Three bags full Mr Ecs.
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>> You don't know me old chap or my financial situation.
At the time you didn't know his either.
www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?v=t&t=14465&m=331629
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"Driving Test Tips" regarding coasting. www.drivingtesttips.biz/what-is-coasting.html
"Does coasting save petrol?
Coasting is basically the same as a stationary car with an idle engine. An idle engine uses a small amount of petrol to keep the engine active.
When slowing down in a modern car by keeping the clutch up and in gear cuts the fuel injectors and uses no petrol at all."
Last edited by: L'escargot on Sat 3 Aug 13 at 09:22
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On the other hand, when going downhill, the drag or braking effect of the engine means a loss of momentum and, unless slowing is specifically required, more fuel will be needed to restore that momentum.
How on earth one would calculate the most fuel efficient technique in those circumstances I've no idea.
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>> How on earth one would calculate the most fuel efficient technique in those circumstances I've
>> no idea.
>>
And who on earth would be so penny-pinching as to be concerned about it?
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I visit Clevedon in north Somerset occasionally. I'll usually knock it into neutral and coast the last mile or so down the hill to the off-ramp so I can flex my right foot after it's been fixed in almost one position on the throttle.
I've been known to put it back in gear to avoid exceeding the limit too much.
goo.gl/maps/YXvnT
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>>the drag or braking effect of the engine
Interestingly, with electronic valve control this source of drag could be all but eliminated.
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Two things come to mind.
(1) lastword "chose to remove the undershield". Perhaps this has had an adverse effect on the pattern of airflow past the clutch housing.
(2) Section 7 of the Schaeffler dual-mass flywheel guide lukdmfguide tinyurl.com/m23gyo4 (courtesy of pmh) stresses the importance of using new bolts when a dmf is replaced. Did this in fact happen, and were they tightened in the correct manner?
Last edited by: L'escargot on Fri 9 Aug 13 at 09:15
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AA technical specialist Vanessa Guyll said that dual-mass flywheels should last at least 4 to 5 years. Only 4 to 5 years? Sacré bleu et zut alors! tinyurl.com/qjddfpp
Google for "dual-mass flywheels" and you'll be horrified by the entries.
Last edited by: L'escargot on Thu 15 Aug 13 at 11:06
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>> Google for "dual-mass flywheels" and you'll be horrified by the entries.
>>
On the other hand ....... tinyurl.com/oqcuoyj
"Like any component today they do wear out, whilst they are designed to last the design life of the vehicle (which will vary from one vehicle manufacturer to another) under normal operating conditions, they may wear out quicker under certain circumstances."
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L'es. Re-read my post to you on the 1st. August. ;-)
"My last Focus still had the original clutch when I sold it at nearly 100,000 miles. In over 50 years of motoring I've never had a clutch fail."
Yes the clutch components on that model and older Fords were made to last. The Mk2, and hence your Mk3, have inferior cheap quality materials that will not last as long as you think. They are made to fail early these days so the industry can fleece us for more money. Think about it. Your clutch fails under warranty. Do you think they wont play the "it's the way you're driving" card, to make you pay. It's all about profiteering, at our expense. Not the way we drive.
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>> Yes the clutch components on that model and older Fords were made to last. The
>> Mk2, and hence your Mk3, have inferior cheap quality materials that will not last as
>> long as you think. They are made to fail early these days so the industry
>> can fleece us for more money. Think about it. Your clutch fails under warranty. Do
>> you think they wont play the "it's the way you're driving" card, to make you
>> pay. It's all about profiteering, at our expense. Not the way we drive.
I don't buy this 'conspiracy' stuff. 'The Industry' in terms of parts suppliers and fitting garages etc is too diverse and fragmented for such shenanigans to be anything more than a zero sum game.
I'm sure my Xantia has a DMF and it and clutch are still original at 150k miles. Not going to be replaced by me now as I'm expecting to be rid of it by end of September.
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"I'm sure my Xantia has a DMF"
No - good old solid flywheel was good enough for the HDi in the Xantia. C5 apparently needed a DMF though - on what is basically the same engine..... The one in the 110 Xantia though is a pull clutch (as used on the earlier TD) but with a revised release bearing - this has to be clipped into the pressure plate during re-assembly, and the spring ring holding it all together looks remarkably deminutive - and failure of this ring can cause the hydraulic actuator to pop out, which is a sealed system, and a mare to bleed. If the clutch appears to fail DO NOT pump the pedal!! Ah the joys.... mine also still original at 150k.
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" 'The Industry' in terms of parts suppliers and fitting garages etc is too diverse and fragmented for such shenanigans to be anything more than a zero sum game."
Yes, outside warranties and getting work done yourself, wherever you see fit. What the issue here is the parts used nowadays, as in clutches, are not constructed to last like they did in the past.
If you have a NEW car under warranty, you may be tied to getting repairs done by main dealer or a few selected appropriate inde garages. It wont be a cheap back street garage, So they get their "buck" anyway they can while they've got you by the short and curlies. If you want that warranty cashed in some time. Until you get over the warranty periods, you are paying specific garages money for servicing and parts. They fit the same parts that may have you return too soon into the parts life. No, not just a conspiracy, a fact and a good little earner. And why should they fit tank proof parts of yesteryear so you don't have to part with cash. The materials have got lighter and less reliable in the last 5-10 years because they want to recoup as much money as they can.
Just go behind any Ford garage service desk and you will see targets for parts and servicing. And how do they manage that. By stitching us up with all manner of flim flam to have your money.
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>> Just go behind any Ford garage service desk and you will see targets for parts
>> and servicing.
I've just been behind the service department desk at my Ford dealer and there are no such targets.
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"I've just been behind the service department desk at my Ford dealer and there are no such targets."
As there are only Dagenham Motors dealerships near me, I thought it was the norm. I'll retract ANY Ford garage. I wrongly presumed it was the norm. If one chain IS doing it, then why not the other Ford chains. surely it comes direct from Fords head office to plug certain things? But in my personal experience with one chain, they have targets for getting you to part with money.
Any ex dealers or salesmen on here like to confirm or deny these things go on in the industry?
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>> If one chain
>> IS doing it, then why not the other Ford chains. surely it comes direct from
>> Fords head office to plug certain things?
The dealership I go to isn't part of a chain. It's a family-owned business with just the one premises. The current dealer principal is the son of the founder. Also, Ford Motor Company doesn't dictate how this dealership runs its business.
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>> Also,
>> Ford Motor Company doesn't dictate how this dealership runs its business.
The fact they have kept a Ford franchise indeed means that Ford dictates its business. They are clever in that they hide it from you.
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Dagenham Motors is not a Ford franchise;it's owned by Ford.
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>> >> Also,
>> >> Ford Motor Company doesn't dictate how this dealership runs its business.
>>
>> The fact they have kept a Ford franchise .............
The next time I'm there I'll ask the dealer principal whether they do in fact have a Ford franchise or whether it's just that they specialise in selling Ford cars. Before I ordered my current Focus he said that if I wanted a car other than a Ford he would investigate whether there would be sufficient profit in it for him to source one for me.
Last edited by: L'escargot on Sun 15 Sep 13 at 10:27
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>>Any ex dealers or salesmen on here like to confirm or deny these things go on in the industry?
What Swiss Tony said, they all do. Pretty obvious really that a business will have targets for its distinct revenue and cost areas.
Essentially Parts & Service ought to be the bread and butter of a dealership with new sales representing some profit, but essentially a pipeline feeder.
Since the revenue/profit from servicing and maintaining a vehicle far exceeds the potential profit from selling it, then it pretty much stands to reason.
As it happens then P&L should be, and usually is, measured with surprising granularity; preferably to an individual vehicle P&L with full cost allocation, including recognition of service costs, targets and revenues.
The P&L and accounting approach of a typical dealership is impressive and sophisticated. Sadly it is rarely executed or understood with quite the skill it is created with.
However, pretty dumb leaving such a document out to be seen by all and sundry.
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>> Just go behind any Ford garage service desk and you will see targets for parts and servicing. And how do they manage that. By stitching us up with all manner of flim flam to have your money.
>>
AFAIK ALL dealer have such targets.
Most are sensible enough to keep them hidden from customers......
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>> They are made to fail early these days so the industry can fleece us for more money.
For practically the whole of my working life I worked for companies that made automotive components. The policy of all of my employers was to design components to last as long as possible within the constraints of the price that the customer was prepared to pay.
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>> For practically the whole of my working life I worked for companies that made automotive
>> components. The policy of all of my employers was to design components to last as
>> long as possible within the constraints of the price that the customer was prepared to
>> pay.
>>
Are you and your bosses now retired?...
Things within the motor trade have changed - and not all for the better.....
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>> They are made to fail early these days so the industry
>> can fleece us for more money. Think about it. Your clutch fails under warranty. Do
>> you think they wont play the "it's the way you're driving" card, to make you
>> pay. It's all about profiteering, at our expense. Not the way we drive.
The "they make things crap to get money out of us later" argument is crap. Always has been always will be and always spouted by people who have an axe to grind. Car makers exist to sell cars, if they are crap they dont sell any.
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I think it's easy to forget how far reliability has come in a few decades. It wasn't all that long ago that a car with 60-70,000 miles was on its last legs all round, and could well have needed major engine/gearbox work a couple of times in that mileage.
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You need to have a look at some of the dedicated motoring forums Z. You will read how cars are released on to the market with faults and niggles. People still buy them. No car is perfect.
Last edited by: Mr. Ecs on Thu 15 Aug 13 at 17:06
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This is all very worrying. For the sake of peace of mind I'm going to be proactive and get my dealer to order me a dual-mass flywheel and clutch now rather than wait for the inevitable failure. This way I get the parts at today's prices, and avoid future increases.
To be on the safe side it might be better if I get them to order two sets of parts.
Last edited by: L'escargot on Sat 17 Aug 13 at 15:29
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>> To be on the safe side it might be better if I get them to
>> order two sets of parts.
>>
They say troubles come in threes. Better go for the hat-trick, just to be certain.
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>> You need to have a look at some of the dedicated motoring forums Z. You
>> will read how cars are released on to the market with faults and niggles. People
>> still buy them. No car is perfect.
>
I have had more brand new cars than you have had hot dinners Mr Ecs.
Faults and niggles is not "cars deliberately engineered to go wrong" is it.
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No not deliberately. But they have enough time during development to iron out ALL the niggles.
How many cars is that then. Again sir, you don't know me, my background, financial situation. You're at it again you naughty man. You are a man I take it?
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>> No not deliberately. But they have enough time during development to iron out ALL the
>> niggles.
No they dont, never have, never will.
>>
>> How many cars is that then.
15
Again sir, you don't know me, my background, financial
>> situation.
I know you were moaning about your clapped out Ford.
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Wasn't clapped out. Was a second car, only 6 mths old when I bought it. And the clutch DMF were changed just over the 3 years.
And I've had more hot dinners than that. ;-)
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>> But they have enough time during development to iron out ALL the
>> niggles.
It's impossible to test all combinations of parts at their extremes of dimensional tolerance. It's inevitable that some situations will only occur after a car has been in production for a while. Even then, there will be unforeseen quality problems which have to be corrected.
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Also bear in mind that the design, manufacture and parts used in cars (and pretty much every other machine) change continually over the product's lifetime, as improvements are made, more cost-efficient ways of doing things are found and suppliers change. The same applies whether its a Focus, a Boeing 787 or a washing machine...
If you want to buy a car where as many niggles as possible are ironed out, buy a model one nearing the end of its life. At least if it's still full of niggles which the engineers haven't yet removed, they should be well known. Or buy a 14th generation Toyota Corolla, which seems to be a product of constant evolution with no major changes along the way.
Ironically, though, new models and "all new designs" are what the UK buying public seems to want, when 'new' also means a new set of potential faults and niggles to resolve!
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Ford - 05 2.0 Focus clutch problems - L'escargot
