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Cant yet seem to find the answer so may need to make a call but anyone have any ideas whether cleaning cars commercially on private property using a pressure washer is allowed? Obviously it uses a hose for water supply but not for delivery and the distinction isnt clear on everything I can find on the subject.
Im none too keen on washing cars with buckets, it uses alotta water and takes ages.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 16 Mar 12 at 00:39
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Ok, delving deep into the drought pack info I found this line regarding exemptions:
'This includes small business who rely on the use of a hosepipe for, for instance, cleaning windows or cars on domestic properties.
Am I reading that right, it shouldnt be an issue for me?
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Looks like your good to carry on to me.
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My pressure washer will suck the water from a bucket (or larger container).
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No lack of water North of the Border - too much of the blooming stuff any month in the year....we would settle for drier weather.
A bit of joined up canals and I am sure there could be plenty water flowing downhill from Scotland to SE England. If the Italians can move water around with their topography and the Yanks move water all around California the UK is ripe for a solution to the drought in the South & East.
That said Rome gets more rain than London on average.
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We could take the 30 billion quid allocated for the high speed rail link nobody wants and spend it on a National Water Grid instead, using canals or other watercourses that are half there already as a starting point.
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From the "Waterwise" site.
The idea of a national water grid is an outdated Victorian approach to a 21st century problem. It's wrong on many levels.
Firstly, it would be phenomenally expensive. Water is heavy; shifting it around the country would cost a fortune.
Secondly, if you were to think of using the canals, this is a static network. If you were to pump water around the canals you would need to reinforce them and you wouldn't be able to use them for what they were intended.
Thirdly, the water chemistry is different. Generally in the north the surface water is acidic and if you are mixing that with basic waters in the south east you will get problems with the ecology. Also your cup of tea would taste funny.
The idea of a National Water Grid is similar to that of the Spanish National Hydrological Plan to 'ship' water from the River Ebro, north of Barcelona all the way down to the country's southern areas.
It involves 900km of pipes and channels and the cost just for the pipes and the new channels is around E5.2bn. You can double that if you include the balancing reservoirs. Because you just can't ship the water down. You've got to put it somewhere. In the UK you would need massive aqueducts and have to find some huge storage area in the south east. Then you would have to distribute it around the area which would need a series of balancing ponds.
It is an impractical and expensive solution that wouldn't actually solve anything.
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Expensive? 30 billion from HSR.
Canals not used for what they were intended for? Not been used for anything except leisure for years and that wouldn't stop.
Water chemistry and ecology? Why is it ok for the Spanish then?
Put it somewhere? Yes, in southern reservoirs until full, then close the sluices in Scotland.
Bah.
:)
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Hasn't desalination in the Thames Estuary been floated (!) before now ?
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It is in use as we speak, in the tidal part of the Thames - reverse osmosis system - uses lots of power and very high pressures.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_osmosis
Last edited by: Meldrew on Thu 15 Mar 12 at 16:57
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"Canals not used for what they were intended for? Not been used for anything except leisure for years and that wouldn't stop."
I think it would if they were changed from a static system to a fast flowing water transportation system. The average narrowboat might have problems with 10mph current.
There is no real water shortage. What we have is excessive usage. Many parts of the developed world get by using far less water per capita than we do. If metering were brought in for all and water was charged at a tiered rate with the price rising steeply for above average consumption consumption would fall dramatically. No need for grandiose projects that are only useful every 20 years or so.
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"What we have is excessive usage"
So what. Water doesn't disappear to nothing. Doesn't matter how many times you flush or use the washing machine, all that water eventually arrives back via the treatment works to your tap. The water you drink ends up there too. Watering the garden, cleaning the car, it all falls back to earth or drains away to be used again. Even if it bypasses all the drains and reservoirs it drains through the ground to the water table that these companies bore down to to extract it. The gain for having a meter is purely the water company's and to extort as much cash out of you as possible. So you use less. The reservoir is still evaporating into the air, whether you flush once or 100 times a day, and as I said, that water is running back to be pumped back to you. It is pure propaganda that we waste water. No we don't, think about it.
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But there is a cost to all that water being reprocessed, although I do agree I think a lot of water companies would love everyone to think 'I'll get a water meter' I remember reading an article about hosepipe bans, with regards to cleaning cars. The magazine showed it used less than a bucket to wash with these new pressure washers. When they told this to the local water company they said they knew that. Not that much water overall was used by hosepipes they just use it to get people to think about saving water.
What are these companies bringing in the ban like at repairing pipes? How much is being lost through bad maintence?
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>> What are these companies bringing in the ban like at repairing pipes? How much is
>> being lost through bad maintence?
Not great/lots: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17371825
"Thames Water is taking up to two months to fix leaking pipes despite claiming an average repair time of five days."
Last edited by: Focus on Thu 15 Mar 12 at 07:21
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"The gain for having a meter is purely the water company's and to extort as much cash out of you as possible. So you use less."
Exactly Mr Ecs. So we use less. That is what we should be trying to achieve, reduced consumption.
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>> Exactly Mr Ecs. So we use less. That is what we should be trying to
>> achieve, reduced consumption.
>>
Mr Ecs is right. We've got the same water now as the dinosaurs drank...it goes around in circles.
The problem is making sure it's where we want it to be for the amount we need to use.
In the South East demand has risen dramatically....and there are not enough reservoirs to cope with it...so grab some out of the sea and take out the salt...or...build more reservoirs to keep hold of what we do get.
Simples.....other than the cost.
Where I live now, in the SW, their water bills have been considerably higher than elsewhere to improve their act and clean up beaches etc...which obviously they have a lot of...looks like the SE is going to have increased bills to achieve the above.
Then politics comes in to it....and head in sand thinking.
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>>
>> "What we have is excessive usage"
>>
A few years ago a colleague was grumbling about his (Metered) water bill. Turns out his wife, son and he all enjoyed 10 or so minutes in the shower each day (Not - I believe - at the same time). The shower was a 25l per minute power shower.
3/4 of a cubic meter of water weach day just on the shower . . .
Multiply this by the numbers in the South East and you see where the problem is. An
It does not all get re-cycled - they have to leave some in the rivers, Severn Trent pump water out of the Derwent to Carsington when the river is high but sometimes have to pump it back if the river is very low.
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I'd say at about £8 bn, going by that estimate, it's cheap for a national project of that scale.
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>>Canals not used for what they were intended for? Not been used for anything except leisure for years and that wouldn't stop.
Back in the '70s I had a canal holiday, Chester to LLangollen. ISTR part of the waterway was used as a water feeder for Birmingham.
Ironic, considering the number of dead sheep we saw floating by.
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>>
>>
>> It is an impractical and expensive solution that wouldn't actually solve anything.
What a load of horse poo, its complete cobblers.
Reinforce canals? the man has the engineering knowledge of a gnat.
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Thames Water have said they will move water across from the River Severn using canals. This will be better than using expensive pumping equipment. Their words not mine.
Last edited by: Mr. Ecs on Tue 13 Mar 12 at 11:12
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Dem Romans had the right idea (2000 years ago!) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pont_du_gard.jpg
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>> No lack of water North of the Border - too much of the blooming stuff
>> any month in the year....we would settle for drier weather.
>>
Move East, you are too close to the wet side of the country. We never go West of Stirling without something waterproof, (Car, and coat, or brolly). :-)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 13 Mar 12 at 13:58
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>> My pressure washer will suck the water from a bucket (or larger container).
>>
I want something to suck water from a shower tray.
Our shower is on the ground floor so what sort of safe ( inexpensive) pump is available to put in the shower tray to do this job.
I am assuming a 12V pump of some sort would be required.
So is there a version for caravan or boat that would be suitable.
Plus of course a 12v DC supply.
Plus of course an off switch in the shower ( foot operated?)
Plus ? Why cannot life be simple?
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>>Im none too keen on washing cars with buckets, it uses alotta water
Surely a lot less than using a hosepipe, Stu?
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Do your watering at night when the busybodies can't see you!
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>> Do your watering at night when the busybodies can't see you!
they check how green your lawn is during the day
Buzzzz! Next bright idea?
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Tell them it's some super new grass seed! :)
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What will Pressure Washer Man, across the street from me, who spends every weekend hosing down his X5, do now?
Don't really see the need for a hose. I can wash either of our cars with two buckets of soapy water - one if it's not very dirty, but then why wash it at all? Then I'll let the rain - and there usually is some - rinse it.
But don't worry - the cricket season is only four weeks away. That's enough to end any dry spell.
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You can legally wash your bicycle with a hosepipe during the ban, so I shall simply move it strategically around the garden while cleaning it.
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>>Surely a lot less than using a hosepipe, Stu?<<
Perhaps, but I dont use a hosepipe though I get my water via one, I use a pressure washer which uses alot less and used properly you only have water flowing for around 3-4 minutes tops per job.
To do a professional job, you have to do it properly on cars which arent very clean, so just buckets of water dont have the pressure to rinse off caked on dirt for instance, especially if you need to scrub the wheels etc.
I washed a dirty old Corsa with buckets last month due to a burst pipe and it took 35 litres to rinse, soap it, do each wheel then rinse again. It also took 30% longer.
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>> I want something to suck water from a shower tray.
>>
>> Our shower is on the ground floor so what sort of safe ( inexpensive) pump
>> is available to put in the shower tray to do this job.
How about one of these:-
tinyurl.com/6ue6p5s (Screwfix)
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When I was young, and times were hard, three of us bathed in the same bath water and we only had one bath a week. If everyone did that nowadays there probably wouldn't ever be a need for a hosepipe ban.
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If there's a hosepipe ban, what will be the definition of a hosepipe? I have an eighteen inch length of hosepipe attached to our outside tap so that watering cans can be stood on the ground while they're being filled.
I know I've asked the question before, but the definition of what constitutes a hosepipe must be central to the whole subject.
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Hosepipe bans should be restricted to those that don't have a water meter.
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>> Hosepipe bans should be restricted to those that don't have a water meter.
>>
Why should we be restricted or metered up here? We have more brand new (as in un-recycled) fresh water than we know what to do with.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Tue 13 Mar 12 at 14:28
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>> >> Hosepipe bans should be restricted to those that don't have a water meter.
>> >>
>>
>> Why should we be ....... metered up here?
Those of us that have meters pay in proportion to the amount of water we use. If we want to use a hosepipe we should be allowed to do so. So there!
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>> Those of us that have meters pay in proportion to the amount of water we
>> use. If we want to use a hosepipe we should be allowed to do so.
>> So there!
>>
Where you live is your choice, all facilities and resources should be taken into account. If you didn't do your research..........................:-)
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Water's too important for that, l'Es. When you get to the level of making sure there's enough to go round, even this craven lot haven't suggested leaving it to the market.
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I've not owned a hosepipe for yonks. Can't say it's something that I've missed.
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>> When you get to the level of making sure
>> there's enough to go round, even this craven lot haven't suggested leaving it to the
>> market.
Our water board is in the process of laying a pipeline to take water from our local reservoir to a town 40 miles away. Nevertheless, they're going to impose a hosepipe ban on us in a couple of weeks. It's not fair I tell you, it's not fair!
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But there is a very valid view that all homes should be metered. The obvious first step to reduce consumption.
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Untill every house and building has a rainwater storage tank, you can't possibly say there is a water shortage.
Just ration public water supply to the basic minimum per household, and then if anyone wants to use any more they can collect it themselves.
You would soon see who really needed to wash the car every week if their loo was stinking because they had used up all their water.
Writes smug, from Wales.
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Our friends house in Australia has metered mains water and a huge (2500 gallon) water tank fed from the roof.
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>> Untill every house and building has a rainwater storage tank, you can't possibly say there
>> is a water shortage.
I'm not washing my car in rainwater. No way Pedro!
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We could learn a thing or two from the Romans about transporting water.
They were able to move vast amounts of it over great distances without using pumps, just gravity and some amzing engineering skill, expertise and manual labour.
www.romanaqueducts.info/introduction/index.html
Perhaps if this country invested in 'water infrastructure' it would create employment.
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I'm not washing my car in rainwater. No way Pedro!
Whyever not? There's much less dissolved in rainwater than tapwater, so less to crystallize out on your paintwork. Unless you enjoy all that leathering, or whatever it's called. Never bothered, meself.
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>> Unless you enjoy all that leathering, ..........
Yep, I enjoy it. I use a genuine chamois leather ~ it reminds me of my first new car, a Singer Chamois.
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... I use a genuine chamois leather ~ it reminds me of my first new car, a Singer Chamois.
My first car was made of steel. Hadn't realized how much progress there was between the 60s and the 80s. Perhaps I should think of it when I'm honing a kitchen knife.
};---)
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Here is the legislation that the water companies can use to enforce a ban. They can only impose a ban from a list of of specific uses. They cannot actually impose an overall ban on hosepipe use . As far as I can see they have not actually yet specified the extent of the ban.
Anglian Water have stated that:
'At present, the ban will only apply to domestic use of hosepipes for things like gardening, washing cars and windows and filling paddling pools"
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/29/section/36
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Tue 13 Mar 12 at 15:05
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PLus the Minister by order add a non domestic puropse to the list.
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Just got my Water-bill (well half of it) this morning, it`s gone up £20pa this year! - the annoying part of it is though, they charge you for "catching" your rain-water!! even tho` 90% of mine is caught and used from butts and never sees a drain!
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Welsh Water (who serve most of Wales) are a not for profit company. That's how it should be with all utilities. They are very good to deal with professionally (via CAB) as well.
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On the EON website I can see graphs of our electricity and gas consumption, updated monthly, and compare it with last year.
However, although our water is metered, the Thames Water website doesn't even have a 'my account' section so I've no idea how we are doing. Just get a paper bill every 6 (IIRC) months. Thames Water are one of the companies who will be introducing a ban.
(Yes I could read the water meter myself but it's not that accessible.)
Last edited by: Focus on Tue 13 Mar 12 at 16:02
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Some facts to put all this in to perspective.
We use too much water because it is so cheap.
The average household water bill is around £1 a day.
Metered water to your tap is charged at around £1.20 per 1000 litres. (Petrol/Diesel would cost you £1,400 per 1000 litres.)
That is 0.12 of a penny per litre.
Now if the water was taxed at seven times the current metered charge (add 0.84p to the the cost), water costs would rise to 1p a litre (0.12 +0.84 =0.96p) , HM Treasury would raise enough to pay for a pipeline from Scotland to London. But then the pipeline would not be needed perhaps, because the 1p a litre charge would be enough of a disincentive to stop profligate use of water!
p.s. Water is one commodity that you do not have to pay for and you won't be cut off - unless the Law has changed since this article was published:
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8115887.stm
Last edited by: John H on Tue 13 Mar 12 at 16:39
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And on top of the water shortage in the south east there is the question of population growth. Encouraged by the last government and not stopped by the current government, all these new people need homes which need water. As well as roads, schools, hospitals, etc.
Government planning? Don't make me laugh!
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>> Government planning? Don't make me laugh!
>>
Government planning is as much of an oxymoron as American Intelligence......or Special Constable.
Still growling in Devon. (0:-:0)
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I am on metered water as are most of my neighbours, however my next door neigbour opted out of the free fitting scheme, offered about ten years ago. He is a green lawn fanatic, unlike myself, and waters his grass morning, noon and evening whether it's been raining or not.
What do you do with people like this who have complete disregard for for water usage? They also shower about twice a day and seem to to daily laundry for the road from the amount of washing on their whirligig most days of the week.
If I were nasty minded, these are the sort of people I'd should shop to our local water authority but I always live in hope that they'll come around to my thinking and try and be more sensible with their water usage - but wil they?
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I understand water the garden when not needed is sillly.But shopping people for having a shower or using the washing machine.?
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Why not get together with other 'like-minded' folk in your road and hold a no whirligig week in the Spring,
If that is successful you could hold a brown lawn party in the Summer.
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I love my brown lawn; it doesn't need cutting and wasting petrol.
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When we lived in Gorran Haven in South Cornwall, they used to cut their lawns all through the winter,
Come summer, with the micro-climate in that region (mucho sol) they would even be out there cutting their brown lawns.
:}
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I am chuffed to little meat balls that we don't have a water meter. I will resist having one installed, too!
Our water costs are "rate" based on what was a very low rate to start with. We are still in the lowest council tax band too.
I love not having to concern myself about water usage - there's enough to think about with the other utilities!
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>> Well don't be too chuffed - it's not going to last
>>
>>
>> www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1352046/Coming-soon-Compulsory-water-meters----And-youll-pay-200-installation-price.html
Total pfd!
My meter was installed yesterday, free of charge.
I still pay according to my rateable value.
I can opt to pay metered and revert within two years if I so choose.
If the house is sold, the new occupants will have no alternative than to pay metered.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 14 Mar 12 at 13:01
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>> My meter was installed yesterday, free of charge.
>>
No such thing, the cost will be passed on to the consumers.
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>>
>> I'm not washing my car in rainwater. No way Pedro!
>>
What do you do when it rains then? Stop and put a cover on?
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>>
>> >>
>> >> I'm not washing my car in rainwater. No way Pedro!
>> >>
>>
>>
>> What do you do when it rains then? Stop and put a cover on?
>>
There's a difference between washing a car in rainwater, and allowing it to be rained upon.
Try it with your own body!
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>> Try it with your own body!
Human skin and snail shell are different though ;o)
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>> Human skin and snail shell are different though ;o)
>>
Jealousy will get you nowhere!
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I think I may have accidently trodden on one of your relations this morning L'gastropub :(
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>> I think I may have accidently trodden on one of your relations this morning L'gastropub
>> :(
>>
No probs. It'll soon be replaced. tinyurl.com/7n246qe
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So it was Snails that invented KY jelly then, they may be deaf but they're bimmin clever litttle pods!
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Walking in the pouring rain is one of the few free pleasures in life.
The feel of the rain on your face, hair dripping wet and the fact that no-one else is out there is wonderful.
Pat
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>> Walking in the pouring rain is one of the few free pleasures in life.
>>
>> The feel of the rain on your face, hair dripping wet and the fact that
>> no-one else is out there is wonderful.
>>
>> Pat
Noooooo!
Last edited by: Roger on Thu 15 Mar 12 at 12:53
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If the size of the population is allowed to continue to increase unchecked, then eventually water won't be the only thing which we're short of.
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>> If the size of the population is allowed to continue to increase unchecked, then eventually
>> water won't be the only thing which we're short of.
>>
Just look at the phenomenal destruction of large houses only to be replaced by multi-occupancy buildings such as flats, old people's residences etc. God knows where all that gas, electricity and water is coming from. It is finite you know: our greed can't go on unbridled and the same applies to air and road transport.
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I read recently that there is a trial in Snodland to meter the air we breathe, linked to a persons respiratory rate, apparently.
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So basically they plan to fine us all £200 for excessive water use, then give us a meter to encourage us not to waste water, when everybody knows the greatest waster of water in this country is the water companies own supply system!! - Bah! we`re screwed!!
Last edited by: devonite on Wed 14 Mar 12 at 18:27
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But don't use your hosepipe because that will cost you a £1,000 fine
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Is it me or is it ironic, somebod posted a link yesterday that basically stated that you could not be forced to pay for your water or have it cut off, without a court-order. yet you can be fined for using it thro` a hosepipe whether you pay the bill or not.
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>> So basically they plan to fine us all £200 for excessive water use, then give
>> us a meter to encourage us not to waste water, ..........
Stop moaning and read (all of!) this Anglian Water website. tinyurl.com/7fkhb93
"On average, a household will save £100 a year on their bill."
When we went onto a meter, without altering our water usage habits our monetary saving was quite significant.
Last edited by: L'escargot on Thu 15 Mar 12 at 08:42
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Here you can find Yorkshire Water's estimated charges for 2012/2013 for water and waste water services with a water meter based upon the number of people in a household. tinyurl.com/7drjjvu
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We went over to a meter about 10 years ago, when I fessed up to having a sprinkler for the garden. Then, we were paying over £300 pa. for our water based on the rateable value.
After the meter was installed our annual water costs dropped to <£200 pa.
However, costs have crept up over this past decade and my last 6 month's metered bill was ca £130 IIRC and so it's still cheaper having a meter and I never, ever think about that meter dial spinning around as soon as any water is being used.
If you ever get a leak between the meter and your house, however, then the problems start as my neigbour found out last year. Eventually the water company found the leak, in a shoddy connection between a plastic pipe feed and metal feed pipe in front of her front entrance door.
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>>When we went onto a meter, without altering our water usage habits our monetary saving was quite significant. <<
We were not interested in having a meter installed until our water company introduced a scheme where they were prepared to remove it within the first 12 months if we so wished.
For us it was a very good move, as our bills were reduced by around 50%.
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The problem with the voluntary system is that by definition only those likely to save money are going to request that a meter be installed. Those using the most water will naturally stay with an unmetered system. It is estimated that on average those on a meter use around 10% less than they did before the meter was installed. Compulsory introduction of metering would have very significant effect on overall water usage and is highly likely to be introduced soon. The current drought is the ideal time to overcome the usual political objections.
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As a matter of interest, CG, you've said a couple of times in this thread we should be trying to reduce consumption. Others have said that there is plenty of water about - it's either in the wrong places or is not currently usable without processing.
Is your feeling that the cost (in financial or ecological terms) of moving and/or processing is such that it's not worth doing, as we bantered about earlier in the thread, and so we should just try to use less, or is it something else?
Not being awkward, genuinely interested to know where you're coming from?
Last edited by: Crankcase on Thu 15 Mar 12 at 10:04
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It seems to me that there is too much focus on the problem from a supply point of view and not enough from the demand side. Obviously there is a need to improve local /regional supply systems and cut leakaged but a national water grid will cost billions and be of unknown consequence to the environment and demand will eventually once more catch up with supply.
We have to start treating water as a valuable commodity and we won't value it if we aren't charged for the cost of it via metering. We cant go on expecting to have unlimited cheap water. I suspect we could all get by by using 10% less water and if we did most of the problem would then go away.
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Very altruistic, but most people won't see it that way. Try and force meters through now and I don't think you'd have a cat in hells chance.
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It's coming. Legislation already under way
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That's a bit of a difference from planning legislation and it coming in. Plenty can happen between the two.
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Sure can. Compulsory metering however seems such an obvious move that I will be very surprised if it doesn't happen.
I would just ask one question. Imagine we were talking about electricity supply rather than water. If we had a situation where a large proportion of users were on a flat rate tariff rather than one based on actual consumption would you advocate building yet more power stations and infrastructure to cope with increasing demand or would you think it a good idea for everyone to pay for what they use and see how that affected demand first?
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I can see where your coming from, but we aren't creating water. That's a big difference. It may seem obvious but I don't think the public will see it that way. I would think more of the politics rather than the dry technical issues.
Playing devil's advocate. You could argue that you pay for a product (flat rate or not) if the private company can't meet that demand that's their problem not mine. Should we get BP to put restricors on people's cars because they can't provide enough petrol?
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but we aren't creating water.
We don't actually "create" energy either come to that. The cost in water is in supply, filtration and storage. Water may be all around us but you are paying for someone to deliver pure water to your tap on demand.
Your devils advocate argument is rather weak. Virtually no product other than water is s supplied at flat rate for unlimited consumption. Water meters would not limit your consumption. It just means you pay for what you consume. Market forces will then take over and ensure you are more careful in your consumption.
Don't really see why paying for what you consume is controversial.
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>> but we aren't creating water.
>>
>> We don't actually "create" energy either come to that.
No but electrity doesn't fall from the sky either.
>>
>> Your devils advocate argument is rather weak.
But it's true in what other situation do I get reduced use because of a private company unable to meet it's part of the contract?
Virtually no product other than water is s supplied at flat rate for unlimited consumption.
Apart from virtually every public service?
Water meters would not limit your consumption.
No but hosepipe bans do.
>>
>> Don't really see why paying for what you consume is controversial.
>>
Wait until it becomes more widely known and the newspapers go to town on the idea. You'll see then ;-)
Last edited by: sooty123 on Thu 15 Mar 12 at 14:37
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Anyway lets say meters come into every home and the private company has to put a hosepipe ban on, will that still be ok? You're paying for every unit you use. Or is it still not their problem?
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>> will cost billions and be of unknown consequence to the environment and demand will eventually
>> once more catch up with supply.
>
Thanks CG, now I see your angle. I don't agree in full with those three statements necessarily, but that's ok, nobody ever changed anyone's mind on the internet, so I won't start down the trail of explaining why I don't or we'll be here all night.
No offence. :)
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>> Thanks CG, now I see your angle. I don't agree in full with those three
>> statements necessarily, but that's ok, nobody ever changed anyone's mind on the internet, so I
>> won't start down the trail of explaining why I don't or we'll be here all
>> night.
>>
Since I don't know your reasoning behind your views, but only know that you don't agree with CG, all I can say is that I don't see your angle but I do see CG's angle.
I agree with you on this bit though: "nobody ever changed anyone's mind on the internet, so I won't start down the trail of explaining why I don't or we'll be here all night."
No offence. :)
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ive got an idea.......you get some rope and tie it to an iceberg, then ;)
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>> ive got an idea.......you get some rope and tie it to an iceberg, then ;)
>>
Then when it is beached somewhere there will be swarms of looters in small boats, hacking off bits of ice and carrying it home in kettles.
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>>Stop moaning and read (all of!) this Anglian Water website.<<
I did, and realised that you Southerners with your fancy houses and big gardens and huge cars ;-) would probably save £100`s on a meter! - but you lot down there haven`t got U.U as your supplier! So suitably stung, off I trotted to U.U`s website on which I took their "Water meter calculator" test. I tried to answer honestly, but I must admit where estimates were required for usage, I probably underestimated.
The result? - my Annual bill on a meter would rise from £188.41 to £256.70!!! we are designated average users, and if we traded our water usage "Carbon footprint" for petrol, we could drive just over 600 miles.
Conclusion? - we would pay more for for less water by meter, than we do now for totally unlimited usage on the R.V method, therefore for people of a lesser/limited lifestyle i.e 90% of population, in Terraced houses (which is the largest housing type in the U.K) meters are just a method of extracting the maximum revenue out of the customer base, and forcing them on customers is nothing more than a legalised scam!
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apparently severn trent aint imposing a hosepipe ban this summer, maybe they have a crystal ball at head office
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If metering is imposed across the board, how about consumers install a meter in the drainage pipework and charge the water company for the water they receive back. It happens with solar energy doesn't it. You get paid to supply the grid. Well I'm supplying the water system with water I've already purchased, so why can't I charge for the stuff I pass back.
CG, do you work for a water company or metering manufacturer by chance? Or do you REALLY believe the nonsense given to you by them.
As for those on here who have meters, I would guess that the majority are in households of 1 or 2. Metering for families is not cheaper.
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>> If metering is imposed across the board, how about consumers install a meter in
>> the drainage pipework and charge the water company for the water they receive back. You get paid to supply the grid. Well I'm
>> supplying the water system with water I've already purchased, so why can't I charge for
>> the stuff I pass back.
It would have to be a clever meter that could record the water but ignore the solids.
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I'm sure someone is clever enough. Maybe CG could oblige with his knowledge on the subject. Or do you think he will poo poo the idea. ;-)
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No I don't work for a water company or meter manufacturer. I do however realise that:
1 Water is a precious and finite resource. Water levels in parts of the country are at a perilously low level.
2 For our own and our children's sake we should use the resource wisely.
3 We can either reduce demand or increase supply e.g by a water grid. Increasing supply will cost a great deal of money which we will have to pay for. Reducing demand therefore seems sensible
3 A lot of water is wasted in this country both by supply companies in their network and by end users
4 Hosepipe bans are not particularly effective long term way of limiting demand but probably necessary in the short term
5 Metering for all is an effective of reducing demand long term
6 It is reasonable for people to pay for what they use as in virtually every other sphere of life.
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1 Water is a precious and finite resource. Water levels in parts of the country are at a perilously low level.
I would have thought it anything but. Water cycle and all that. What off areas that aren't low?
6 It is reasonable for people to pay for what they use as in virtually every other sphere of life.
Apart from nearly every public sector service.
Being right isn't always enough, putting the technical reasons to oneside. Do you think there is enough public will to allow metering to happen? I can't see it, with the economy the way it is, any risk to people monthly bills this will be a hard arguement to get across and win the public's minds.
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>> 1 Water is a precious and finite resource. Water levels in parts of the country
>> are at a perilously low level.
There's loads of the stuff, our oceans/seas are full of it. Most of the Earth's surface is water.
We don't collect it very well, that's the problem.
When the clouds are formed by evaporation off the sea...and they dump water on hills when the clouds come inland...we allow too much to run back out to sea and become salty again.
The South East for example has long used aquifers to get their water from...well there isn't enough in there now, maybe climate change and less rain, but certainly more usage...so BUILD SOME RESERVOIRS or desalination plants.
Yes there will be some pain, there's no valleys sat there with no one living in them..and the desalination plants are expensive.
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...so BUILD SOME RESERVOIRS
Quite right. Thames water sold off some when they were privatised, so that's why there isn't enough to catch what falls. Building more would help. But how long will that be. Meanwhile we'll be forced to have meters and when enough mugs have them these private companies will push the prices up, meaning poorer people will go back to Victorian standards of hygiene. Afraid to wash properly or flush the loo.
And as said enough times, there is no dwindling supplies of water. It comes down to collection and distribution. My kids wont go without. Maybe in several billion years the sun will roast this planet enough for the water on it to boil off into space, where the human race at that point will have ceased to exist.But at the moment, there is a balance and that should not be exploited for financial gain.
Again, the mantra about wasting water is propaganda by the water companies to make you/me pay more for it. Punishing users is not the answer. Building a national grid, though costly, would be prudent. Next the French will be laying a pipeline and selling us their water. See how much that puts on your bills.
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>> ...so BUILD SOME RESERVOIRS
>>
>> Quite right.
All the south east need is a canyon or two, Las vegas is in a desert and thats what they use to store their water.
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Maybe because two of their largest reservoirs are in Wales - where it's reassuringly wet a lot of the time.
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>> I did, and realised that you Southerners
We're Midlanders.
>> with your fancy houses
We have a modest bungalow.
>> and big gardens
I admit ours is bigger than an average new-build estate garden.
>> and huge cars
We have a 9 years old Focus
>> but you lot down there haven`t got U.U as your supplier!
That's true. Nevertheless I used their "online water meter" calculator and our bill went up 75% even though we're already on a water meter. I'm all confused. I'll have to go for a lay down!
;-)
Last edited by: L'escargot on Thu 15 Mar 12 at 14:58
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;-) see what I mean! - and ours was with no baths and one shower a week, whether we needed one or not!
Last edited by: devonite on Thu 15 Mar 12 at 16:29
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Anglian Water say a central heating system can be flushed so I'll put the water in one end and wash my car with what comes out the other end ~ when it's running clean of course!
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>> Metering for families is not cheaper.<<
I would think that metering family properties, particularly those in the lower council tax bands, would be hugely unpopular.
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We're on a water meter and pay £38 per month for a household with just 2 adults.
I do at most, just 2 loads of washing a week on a short cycle, we both have a 5 minute daily shower and never dare flush the loo more than we have to.
I have two water butts to use for the garden and the meter has been checked and found to be correct.
I tokk the calculation on the link above and apparently 'if I changed to a meter I would pay £730 per year as opposed to £456 I pay now.
If everone was on a meter then maybe they would be as frugal as we are with water and I wouldn't be facing a restriction on watering hanging baskets this year.
Pat
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Crikey, Pat.
We're also just the two of us, washing machine on perhaps five times a week, dishwasher most days, baths three times a week, shower every day, etc, and having just had my water bill we paid £220 for the last year. We're on a meter.
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I know, I can't believe it's correct but I finally got Anglian Water to come out and check it last year and that was the verdict.
It certainly concentrates the mind and that's why I think there wouldn't be a water shortage if everyone was forced to think like this.
Pat
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We're Anglian Water too. I don't have the bill here, but from memory the last six months one we got last week was £106, of which about £25 was the water, and the rest was "sewerage charges, standing charges and VAT".
I wonder if your unit prices are the same or if Anglian charge different prices for different areas.
Or is there a link with "rateable band" or something, and you live in a castle.
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We're in Council Tax band 2, just got this years cost today:(
Pat
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I'll dig out ours and see what we're in as I have no clue. I do know we pay £145 a month council tax if that's relevant. Anyway, I'll look for it over the next day or two just out of interest.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Thu 15 Mar 12 at 16:51
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We're £123 per month for Council Tax.
Pat
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>>just 2 adults.
I do at most, just 2 loads of washing a week on a short cycle, we both have a 5 minute daily shower and never dare flush the loo more than we have to.
I have two water butts to use for the garden <<
If you did one load of washing a week less, your usage sounds almost identical to ours! - yet you pay £456 and we pay £188. Somebody, somewhere, (with little fat fingers probably) is making on heck of a profit somehow!!
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I think you have got a leak somewhere pat, thats very very high for little use.
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>> I think you have got a leak somewhere pat, thats very very high for little use.
>>
Have you tried your own checks?
Trying the obvious, turn everything off and watch the meter?
Or have you got the best lawn around as one of my near neigbours eventually worked out was due to underground irrigation ?
They waterboard is proactive in my area. They tagged another near neigbours meter area one night and then their path was dug up and the leak repaired.
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But wouldn`t that have shown up when she did the "calculator-test"? - if she had a leak it should have returned a "lower" price for the consumption that she entered, instead it almost doubled it!
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I hope FoR doesn't mind, but i didn't think it worth starting a new thread.
We are moving in 2 weeks time to a new house that is quite rural. Currently no water meter. Sewage goes into a septic tank, so no payment for that part of it.
My current payment in a temp rental house (water and sewage) is £45 per month, with a meter. The new place will be £38 per month for the water only.
Rental house is Band D (£140 per month), new purchase is Band E (£180 per month).
There is four of us, inc a 4 yr old child and a 9 week old. Washing machine is on daily and i'm well pedantic on keeping the cars clean, so often they get washed very other day. I couldn't care less about the lawns.
Stay with no meter..or...get a meter?
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"There is four of us, inc a 4 yr old child and a 9 week old. Washing machine is on daily and i'm well pedantic on keeping the cars clean, so often they get washed very other day. I couldn't care less about the lawns."
Like many on here, cost effective to have a WM with just 1 or 2. 4 people and above, stick with the rates. IMO.
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>>I hope FoR doesn't mind, but i didn't think it worth starting a new thread<<
As if what I thought mattered :-p Ill just join in.
We are on water meter and as two adults, one long shower circa 20 mins, one short shower between us per day, washing done atleast twice a week and dishwasher on nearly every night, we pay £30 per month. Seems very reasonable and we dont make any special effort to conserve water aside from a water butt for the garden, with a second one to join it soon.
Council tax is £1270 per year, band C - no rise this year, Conservative council see :-)
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And allegedly South-West Water is about to be given a £400 million hand out from H.M Gov, so that they can cut the bills for customers in Devon and Cornwall - Smile Dog! that`s you! ;-)
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"no rise this year, Conservative council see :-)"
I've a Con council and MP. My council tax has gone up. Pickles, sort them out!!!
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>> There is four of us, inc a 4 yr old child and a 9 week
>> old. Washing machine is on daily and i'm well pedantic on keeping the cars clean,
>> so often they get washed very other day. I couldn't care less about the lawns.
>>
>> Stay with no meter..or...get a meter?
With that usage pattern avoid the meter at all costs!
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>> I think you have got a leak somewhere pat, thats very very high for little
>> use.
>>
Precisely. I think people using that amount should check their meter's little dials to make sure that they're not spinning round when no water is being used or, where applicable, no loft tanks are still filling themselves up.
The two of us with Thames Water have an annual bill of ca £260 mind you we don't shower 7days a week, however plenty of washing machine use and car washing using a hose-fed brush. Something sounds a bit wrong with our friends's £38/mth charge
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"We're on a water meter and pay £38 per month for a household with just 2 adults."
Don't feel too badly done by Pat. I'm with Anglian water and we are paying £48 per month for two adult household on a meter. Mrs CG doe insist an a daily bath though. Think I'll have to pull the plug on that.
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I hope there is a ban on im sick of having to send the trains through the wash id rather get another 2hrs kip at work.!!
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>>I hope there is a ban on im sick of having to send the trains through the wash <<
You`ll probably end up doing them by hand with a sponge and bucket! ;-) be happy with the 2 hrs it sounds like you have already!
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>> a daily bath though. Think I'll have to pull the plug on that.
OO no don't do that, it will take all day to fill the bath.
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That's made me feel a whole lot better CG:)
I can't really check the meter myself because it's always under water and you can never see the dials properly.
I did ask the man who came out and checked it, but he insists that is normal.
I do wonder why if we're forced to have a meter it can't be fixed to a wall somewhere so we can monitor our usage.
I do think they could make the billing easier to understand too.
Pat
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>> I can't really check the meter myself because it's always under water and you can
>> never see the dials properly.
Ah! that will be due to the leak then.
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Read my lips Z:)
>>I did ask the man who came out and checked it, but he insists that is normal.
<<
Pat
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Read my lips pat
"That was a joke"
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I had a mains leak in a former house many years ago. Actually locating the leak in the small close where I lived was a peculiarly old fashioned affair involving listening to the flow in the mains with nothing more than a wooden rod held to the ear. The leak team worked late at night when usage is a at a minimum so they could detect abnormal flow.
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Hosepipe Ban - Stuu
