***** This thread is now closed, please CLICK HERE to go to Volume 3 *****
Acording to one of the papers today, one of the dancers on boartd tweeted while she was trying to escape the boat!
Unbelievable!
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 18 Jan 12 at 00:43
|
Someone I know who is very much "in the know" advised me that Rolls Royve have several court cases pending against them from various companies, many to do with propellers breaking off.
He thinks the RR high heid yins may well be bricking it in the next few days..
|
They also have the A380 engine fiasco hanging over their heads.
I get the feeling they are not sufficiently funded in R&D to keep pace with advances. I wouldn't mind betting they are bought out, or amalgamate in the next ten years.
|
That site's very useful - I regularly use it to check whatever ship my daughter is on. She regularly travels Harwich - Esbjerg, Stockholm - Helsinki and over the summer was travelling to Iceland and the Faroes.
Life would be easier if she would fly!
Only downside of that site (apart from low refresh rate) is that ships tend to disappear in the middle of oceans and not reappear for several hours, once they are closer to land.
>> Here is an interesting site
>>
>> www.marinetraffic.com/ais/default.aspx?oldmmsi=247158500&zoom=10&olddate=1/13/2012%209:02:00%20PM
>>
|
Tragic event.......my opinion................
Ship hits rock.
Rock harder than ship
Ship rolls over and dies.
Seemples.
Ted
|
Just add a bit Ted
Ship far to "tall" and was top heavy so turned turtle quicker (always thought they looked a bit "wrong") - I may be wrong of course.
Ref. the tweeting dancer - if I was in the same position I would be inging but not necessarily tweeting...
|
...Ref. the tweeting dancer...
In all the Titanic/cruise ship sinking films I've seen, there are passengers who seem unaware of the seriousness of what's happening and take the whole thing as a lark, at least to start with.
The tweeting dance is an example of life imitating art.
|
>> In all the Titanic/cruise ship sinking films I've seen, there are passengers who seem unaware
>> of the seriousness of what's happening and take the whole thing as a lark, at
>> least to start with.
>>
Got it in one, iffy.
See my yesterday 13:33 post.
|
>> Ship far to "tall" and was top heavy so turned turtle quicker (always thought they
>> looked a bit "wrong") - I may be wrong of course.
>>
They are far more stable than they look, big heavy engines, fuel tanks, Fresh water and sewage tanks etc well below the waterline and the upper parts of the superstructure is aluminum, (not good in a fire). No ship responds well to water on the inside.
|
hope disasters dont always come in three`s! - very similar, hits rocks! - spooky!
www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/01/15/tit-bonhomme-irish-fishing-vessels-sinks-five-people-missing_n_1207290.html
Last edited by: devonite on Sun 15 Jan 12 at 18:08
|
>> Ship far to "tall" and was top heavy so turned turtle quicker (always thought they
>> looked a bit "wrong") - I may be wrong of course.
>>
Pick over this one. :-)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metacentric_height
|
|
If you want to think "too top heavy" look at a big fully loaded container ship. few of them turn turtle.
|
>> If you want to think "too top heavy" look at a big fully loaded container
>> ship. few of them turn turtle.
Also think aircraft carrier, massive thick steel flight deck much larger in area than its waterplane area and high above the waterline, plus numerous aircraft and other heavy kit on top.....not good for stability.
Both the old Eagle and Ark Royal had large void spaces under the waterline filled with steel ingot ballast to keep them upright (more on port side to balance the island). No doubt modern carriers have the same but will also have water compensated fuel tanks to make life easier.
>>
Last edited by: four wheels good... on Sun 15 Jan 12 at 19:19
|
|
I was in the know this time yesterday and I don't even work for R/R!
|
|
Greenpeace are now whining about the leakage of diesel.
|
"Greenpeace are now whining about the leakage of diesel. "
Before we rush to condemn them what exactly have they said then? Can't find anything on the web.
I would think it prudent to take some action asap to prevent a major spillage.
|
|
It would be interesting to know what route the ship took on previous cruises, there's suggestions it was different. I understand it did the same cruise on a weekly basis.
|
Looking at the damage she was attempting to turn to star board (right).
They need to call Smit Tak salvage down very soon.Either try to salvage her or break her up.
They are the best people with there floating cranes and powerfull Tugs to get to the passenger vessel..
|
|
I think the Italian authorities will do everything they can to prevent fuel oil from leaking from an Italian cruise ship, stranded 200 yards off an Italian beach in a noted tourist area and they don't really need anyone to prompt them!
|
|
..........but can Italy afford to pay?
|
I reckon it be through Loyds insurance Roger.
I wouldn't be surprised if Smit Tak not already had a phone call.
|
>> "Greenpeace are now whining about the leakage of diesel. "
>>
>> Before we rush to condemn them what exactly have they said then? Can't find anything
>> on the web.
www.meteoweb.eu/2012/01/incidente-costa-concordia-greenpeace-intervenire-subito-per-evitare-disastro-ambientale/110407/
|
|
Not exactly a whine though is it? Reasonable and fair comment I would say.
|
|
that should be left until the bodies have been recovered, which is the main priority right now.
|
If your objection is to someone raising the question of pollution and environmental damage prior to the recovery of bodies being complete should you not direct your ire to the journalist asking the question rather than Greenpeace who simply supplied their views when asked?
Or are you just environmentalist bashing?
|
Over 2000 tonne that is a fair bit of pollution.Of course the bodys should be recovered first.
The captain is saying the rock wasn't on his chart and the vessel drifted onto it.
|
Does anyone else find it ironic that the Carnival statement has to include 10 times as many legal explanations and exclusions to prevent being sued compared to real information?
doesen't that just about sum up what's wrong with the world of commerce this century.
|
>> Does anyone else find it ironic that the Carnival statement has to include 10 times
>> as many legal explanations and exclusions to prevent being sued compared to real information?
>>
>> doesen't that just about sum up what's wrong with the world of commerce this century.
>>
>>
>>
Yep.. It's the dumb people who rely on Companies telling the truth that are the problem.
See Goldman Sachs selling bonds that one of their major clients helped choose the ingredients for.. and shorted them viciously making a fortune. The dumb people who relied on GS to tell the truth got screwed.
|
"Does anyone else find it ironic that the Carnival statement has to include 10 times as many legal explanations and exclusions to prevent being sued compared to real information?"
I doubt it as that is not irony. Interesting or shocking but not ironic.
|
>> If your objection is to someone raising the question of pollution and environmental damage prior
>> to the recovery of bodies being complete should you not direct your ire to the
>> journalist asking the question rather than Greenpeace who simply supplied their views when asked?
>>
>> Or are you just environmentalist bashing?
well they didn't bleat about the environmental impact when the French blew up the Rainbow Warrior.
|
My newspaper informs me that the captain was sailing close to the island, performing a manoeuvre know locally as an inchino which involves sailing past the land and sounding the fog horn 3 times. On this occasion it was intended as a salute to a retired Costa captain who lives on Giglio. This part of a statement from the owners BTW
www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article3287185.ece
|
>>www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article3287185.ece
>>
I am not paying ££s to Rupert in order to read it. ;-(
|
|
You've done it again old chap. We can't see your subscription only Times :-)
|
Not sure if this is the right thread to note this !
I am now getting averts for SAGA cruises
" Inspiring destinations"
" Incredible coastlines"
Well done you davertising types
Last edited by: henry k on Mon 16 Jan 12 at 09:57
|
sorreeeeeeeeeeeeee!
Prosecutors believe the captain may have deliberately ordered the 1,500-cabin liner to sail close to the island of Giglio to sound a three-horn salute in what locals call an “inchino,” or reverent bow, to the inhabitants.
Its decks illuminated, the Costa Concordia has previously sailed close to the picturesque island and sounded its fog-horn in tribute.
The “showboating” was meant to be a treat for the passengers on the first night of their cruise, and a treat for the islanders too.
This time the apparently harmless greeting ended in disaster, as the 950ft liner foundered on a reef just 1,000ft offshore.
Giglio Mayor Sergio Ortelli told The Times that, based on briefings he had attended, he believed Capt. Schettino had been planning a three-horn salute to Giglio when he crashed.
The sail-bys, he said, were inspired by a former Costa captain who retired to the island.
“It was not a habit, but there have been in the past some events in August that allow the tourists to see the ships come by the coast illuminated,” he said.
In August, the local blog Giglio News even published a letter from the mayor congratulating the then-captain of the Costa Concordia for a successful sail-by.
Mr Ortelli wrote to Capt Massimo Gambarino praising his “close passage” on August 14 as a “unique spectacle” for the tourists on the island.
“It was a beautiful event and I hope it can become a tradition to continue also for us aboard,” Capt Gambarino replied.
|
|
Interesting article. It certainly was a "unique spectacle" that Captain Gambarino provided although not in the way intended.
|
The divers are very brave still searching the ship.My admiration for the rescue services.
|
|
Just announced (1135) that the search has been suspended as the vessel has shifted. That would be dire if there were divers in it when/if it slid into deep water. Brave people, as Dutchie says.
|
BBC news reports that the company states, in a press conference, that the Captain made unauthorised alterations to the planned and authorised route/track of the ship.
"We are working with investigators to find out precisely what went wrong aboard the Costa Concordia. While the investigation is ongoing, preliminary indications are that there may have been significant human error on the part of the ship’s master, Captain Francesco Schettino, which resulted in these grave consequences. The route of the vessel appears to have been too close to the shore, and in handling the emergency the captain appears not to have followed standard Costa procedures. We are aware that the lead Prosecutor has leveled serious accusations against the ship’s captain, who joined Costa Crociere in 2002 as a safety officer and was appointed captain in 2006."
|
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16573283
"Carnival shares fell 18% in early trading after it said it expected the loss of earnings from the capsizing to be between $85m and $95m."
"Carnival said it had insurance coverage for damage to the vessel with an excess of $30m."
Makes my car excess look a bargain :-)
"Carnival plc, the British side of the business, is concerned with UK operations, but has responsibility for Costa Cruises, Carnival Cruises and Holland America Line."
I loved this bit
"Analysts believe the capsizing could affect holiday plans for potential cruise customers."
Rather stating the blee.ing obvious IMHOP.
|
>> "Carnival said it had insurance coverage for damage to the vessel with an excess of
>> $30m."
>> Makes my car excess look a bargain :-)
Given that the cost of this could rise to 600 million+ if the ship gets written off, thats not a bad excess.
|
The Captain joined the ship as a safety officer? That is confusing he must have had navigational qualifications I hope.
Was he just a figure head to mix with the passengers and the first mate was in charge of navigation?
His actions as a captain was strange to leave the ship before the passengers.
|
It is looking more and more likely he was off course. A lot of us have commented he was too close to land.
I realise with the size of hole in the ship it would sink, but can't help thinking evacuation would have been more successful and quicker if it was in deeper water. Ultimately it would sink but it shouldn't have toppled on to it's side.
And if the ship was in deeper water... it would not have struck any rocks in the first place.
|
|
Very true! Some people say they took 90 minutes to get into a lifeboat but if the vessel had been upright, even if sinking faster, many more lifeboats would have been available. All 5 of the crew of an Irish fishing boat were lost at sea over the weekend which is a dreadful survival outcome compared with this cruise ship
Last edited by: Meldrew on Mon 16 Jan 12 at 12:11
|
|
I do not know the layout of the watertight bulkheads in the ship but if the watertight doors were shut promptly she should not have effectively sunk. This may be the "emergency procedures" that were not complied with.
|
Also if it was not listing so badly, maybe more of the unaccounted for would have got out?
I did wonder about bulkheads and whether they should have made a big difference. I thought as a lay person, you'd seal off the section and pump water out of it... and with bulkheads closed there would only be so much water that could be taken on.
Or were bulkheads a problem due to loss of power - I'd hope they were run of emergency power of some sort. And if there was no power, that puts paid to the captain allegedly saying he headed for shallow water - maybe he says that to explain things in his mind.
|
>>>> I did wonder about bulkheads and whether they should have made a big difference. I
>> thought as a lay person, you'd seal off the section and pump water out of
>> it... and with bulkheads closed there would only be so much water that could be
>> taken on.
>>
That is the theory, and in a military vessel that is what would be done if the damage was survivable (for the ship), as the compartments are relatively small.
The problem with cruise liners is the huge open spaces, lift shafts, etc. once you get water in a large compartment, and it moves to one side, the ship is liable to go over as the Herald of Free enterprise did.
|
The water got into the Herald of Free Enterprise's car deck through the open bow doors mind. Lots of water sloshing about where it shouldn't have got to.
I'd have thought the lower part of the cruise ship should have bulkhead compartments to stop the water getting to far. I suppose the ship might have been listing because of the water... or because it was run aground.
|
>> I'd have thought the lower part of the cruise ship should have bulkhead compartments to
>> stop the water getting to far.
If the doors were shut quickly. That is a huge hole, it would have flooded very quickly.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 16 Jan 12 at 13:48
|
I know the laws of physics will prevail, but when I see these chugging in and out of the Solent I wonder what they're like in any sort of swell:-
tinyurl.com/887d98f
The diagram at the bottom of this page gives the impression there's a big open area at waterline level on the Concordia.
www.nedcruise.info/costa_concordia.htm
|
>> I know the laws of physics will prevail, but when I see these chugging in
>> and out of the Solent I wonder what they're like in any sort of swell:-
>>
The ships that look top heavy are mainly fresh air above the waterline.
Have you noticed that the hole in the Concordia is almost directly beneath the funnel, in a large engine room which runs right across the ship.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Mon 16 Jan 12 at 14:24
|
So how many of us in our normal day to day occupation could make a mistake / misjudgement that could result in a loss running into hundreds of millions????
|
Ships are designed to be able to survive the flooding of numerous major compartments, but different conditions can upset the best of designs.
The hole in the hull is huge, it may have completely flooded the compartment in very short time. So possibly the forward movement of the ship over the sandbank / rocks kicked the ship over causing a free surface effect of throwing the flood water to one side of the ship thus capsizing it.
Armchair observations are wonderful!
>> >> and out of the Solent I wonder what they're like in any sort of
>> swell:-
Cruise liners, however awkward they may look, would surely be designed to be comfortable in all but the roughest weather or no-one would want to spend good money to holiday on them. I expect they also try to avoid bad weather when possible.
|
>>Cruise liners, however awkward they may look, would surely be designed to be comfortable in all but the roughest weather or no-one would want to spend good money to holiday on them.
>>
An interesting comment on lunchtime news.
Cruise liners have thin skins on the hulls unlike the QM 2 which is an ocean liner and has a thicker skin.
|
|
Interesting - the metal did look a bit thin but that didn't mean much - I am no expert. Does this mean boats like QM2 and other cruise ships that go transatlantic have much ticker hulls because of the stresses involved? You could encounter really bad weather on the way over the atlantic compared to what you might encounter in the med.
|
>> Interesting - the metal did look a bit thin but that didn't mean much -
>> I am no expert. Does this mean boats like QM2 and other cruise ships that
>> go transatlantic have much ticker hulls because of the stresses involved? You could encounter really
>> bad weather on the way over the atlantic compared to what you might encounter in
>> the med.
>>
Not so, a ship is either seaworthy or not, I have seen a ships steel plates bent by bad weather in the Mediterranean. The strength of the structure is designed for the type and size of ship.
|
And no cruise liner is designed to run into rocks... Otherwise they'd make the hull a lot thicker to keep them seaworthy.
I am sure the cause will be a number of events that got out of control. Maybe the power did fluctuate and probably the ship should have been further out in deeper water. And then the crew didn't follow all procedures.
If it was human failure then this could happen again on any large passenger vessel. If it was technical failure that started the chain of events, it could happen on any ships using similar power units and propulsion.
|
>> >> Interesting - the metal did look a bit thin but that didn't mean much
>> -
>> >> I am no expert. Does this mean boats like QM2 and other cruise ships
>> that
>> >> go transatlantic have much ticker hulls because of the stresses involved? You could encounter
>> really
>> >> bad weather on the way over the atlantic compared to what you might encounter
>> in
>> >> the med.
>> >>
>>
>> Not so, a ship is either seaworthy or not, I have seen a ships steel
>> plates bent by bad weather in the Mediterranean. The strength of the structure is designed
>> for the type and size of ship.
>>
Keeping very tenuously on topic, for no particular reason i found myself reading the history of the Scharnhorst on Wiki the other day. Seems something important broke pretty much every time it left port, even without the attentions of the RAF. Was that normal for big WW2 battleships?
|
>> Seems something important broke pretty much every
>> time it left port, even without the attentions of the RAF. Was that normal for
>> big WW2 battleships?
>>
Sabotage by the crew was not unknown, most did not like being shot at and knew what they were up against..
|
They say the Scharnhorst was cursed. There is however a general myth about superior German equipment during the war, on the whole it wasn't very good, and if it was it wasn't very reliable
Unless it was a krupp 88mm.
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 16 Jan 12 at 17:36
|
>> They say the Scharnhorst was cursed. There is however a general myth about superior German
>> equipment during the war, on the whole it wasn't very good, and if it was
>> it wasn't very reliable
>>
>> Unless it was a krupp 88mm.
>>
Or an MG42, fired one a couple of years back, like nothing before or since.
|
It is said that quite a lot of military equipment. made by prisoners, was subtly sabotaged and ineffective. Usually stuff that didn't look sabotaged but couldn't be tested or inspected, bombs bullets grenades etc
"Dora-Mittelbau had a prisoner resistance organization, which sought mainly to delay production of the Weapons of Retaliation and to sabotage the rockets that were produced. Prisoners suspected of sabotage were usually killed; more than 200 were publicly hanged for sabotaging production."
|
Look at almost any modern warship, you will be able to see the fairly light shell plating dimpled between the frames and longitudinals. The plating is normally a little heavier in several areas, waterline, deck edge, bilge keel area and alongside the keel.
Decks are also fairly thin in most places and can even spring as you walk over them. Lightness, thus speed is the object, rather than battleship armour. Strong enough to keep the water out plus possible heavy treatment from tugs and occasional rough landings against jetties.
The QE2 (the recently decomissioned Cunarder) I think was built to serve as both Atlantic ocean greyhound and cruise ship, so therefore long and slim. Purpose built cruise ships have more beam.
|
|
I only served in a WW2 built destroyer before being pressganged into the submarine service. both the destroyer and certainly the submarines were considerably more substantial than a modern frigate. I think it is accepted that the first hit is fatal to a surface ship these days.
|
|
Bay of Biscay takes some beating in rough weather.
|
>> Bay of Biscay takes some beating in rough weather.
Sure does... three days into my first sea voyage, a month near enough from Glasgow to Colombo, ship creaking and groaning, the seas hitting it with loud bangs, shuddering from stem to stern and it was a 20,000 ton passenger liner too, the little oil tankers they had in the forties disappearing completely under water except for forecastle and bridge/funnel structure at the other end, then heaving very slowly out of the water with all these hundreds of tons of sea pouring off the deck...
I was nearly eight but still remember those details. And being as sick as a dog of course.
|
Wide open spaces,car ferries have them.If conpartments are put in less cars prices will go up.
Not a lot of water needed on the car deck to turn the vessel over.
|
>> The Captain joined the ship as a safety officer? That is confusing he must have
>> had navigational qualifications I hope.
>>
>> Was he just a figure head to mix with the passengers and the first mate
>> was in charge of navigation?
When my old man was working for a major international petrol company, he was a qualified captain and the 'fleet safety officer'.
Many of his junior crew when he was working as a captain, were captain qualified, but had yet to be employed in that rank (or even the captain's deputy i.e. 1st mate).
Nowadays, apparently, they can be dual engineering and deck qualified and many will take pilot exams for various ports, so i'd be amazed if he wasn't qualified enough.
|
We now know it was heading for port.
Could the damage we see be caused as it ran aground?
I wonder if there's more damage on the other side that's currently not visible.
|
>> I wonder if there's more damage on the other side that's currently not visible.
>>
There will be now. :-)))))
|
Eye-witness report from a survivor:
tinyurl.com/7x9dttd
This hasn't put me of cruising at all, in fact I'm currently looking around for a cruise for this summer.
An awful tragedy though and, if the reports about the captain's negligence are true, he should face the full might of the law. My sympathies to all those involved, especially those who have lost loved ones.
|
My wild pointless speculation:-
Captain and/or his peers have done this 'showboating' before without anything breaking.
Recent siesmic activity means there was an underwater rock somewhere where there wasn't before, on the showboating route.
Ship hits rock, Cap'n realises it's in the doo-doo and tries to make for port/beach it.
Presumably previous showboating detours would've triggered the 'boat off course' alarm back at HQ though.
|
>> Recent siesmic activity means there was an underwater rock somewhere where there wasn't before, on
>> the showboating route.
I think the locals on the island may have noticed seismic activity that strong, their wrecked houses and tsunami may have been a clue.
|
>>
>> >> Recent siesmic activity means there was an underwater rock somewhere where there wasn't before,
>> on
>> >> the showboating route.
>>
>> I think the locals on the island may have noticed seismic activity that strong, their
>> wrecked houses and tsunami may have been a clue.
>>
I was thinking of something minor, after all bits of land do fall into the sea without much provocation - thinking of that Cornwall landslip captured on video for example.
|
>>
>> This hasn't put me of cruising at all, in fact I'm currently looking around for
>> a cruise for this summer.
The follow on from rare disasters such as this will make cruises safer. Cruise operators and regulating authorities will be studying everything that comes to light. New procedures will be introduced where found necessary, company policies changed, new, more or different safety kit may be fitted and training will be reviewed.
Some of this will happen fairly quickly, some will take time to implement.
|
|
Go on then four wheels good, where do you work? :)
|
>> Go on then four wheels good, where do you work? :)
>>
Could tell you but then I'd have to shoot you. :)
|
I would have thought so Westpig.Just his behaviour to leave the ship in a hurry.
|
|
Shame I can't ask a relative of my wife's what he thinks. He is a captain of a ship. Not sure what sort but assume it is cargo and know it will be pretty large. He recently flew back out to meet up with it somewhere.
|
Normal route v last route through the gap
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16584075
|
I was just going to post the same... not even close! Might have been the route they often took but not the one programmed for the ship. Oh dear. You couldn't blame that on loss of power either.
And I see the headlines saying it might be a total loss for the ship too. So a massive payout by insurers, loss of life (tragic), loss of many tens of thousands of holidays already booked, loss of earnings to the owners.
|
|
Guy phones a model shop. "Have you got a model of an Italian cruise ship ?" Only one left, sir," "Can you put it on one side for me ?"
|
>> Guy phones a model shop. "Have you got a model of an Italian cruise ship
>> ?" Only one left, sir," "Can you put it on one side for me ?"
Given you a po faced red gong for your appalling lack of taste and sensibility at this time
and a tick cos it was very very funny.
|
Sorry Zero (and others)
As a family we have a history of cracking jokes in the darkest times - sorry. If anything happens to me I hope someone gets some comedy mileage out of it.
|
>> Sorry Zero (and others)
I am glad you mention 'others' Rob. For apart from hypocrites like Zero there are genuinely sensitive souls here, some of part-Italian extraction I would add, who can only be hurt, nay traumatized, by displays of heartless depravity like the one to which you have just treated us.
Were you a decent man you would resign your commission immediately. But I fear that is not likely. Nevertheless, here are a virtual revolver and a virtual bottle of whisky. The rest is up to you.
|
>> As a family we have a history of cracking jokes in the darkest times -
+1
Many times when disasters have struck, brits have made light of it with a joke or three. Doesn't mean we don't care, it's just our way of getting through it.
Anyway, I would have loved to see the look on the face of the search & rescue dog, after it crawled through the wreck of the Costa Concordia only to find itself in a cabin with two Koreans.
|
>> Anyway, I would have loved to see the look on the face of the search
>> & rescue dog, after it crawled through the wreck of the Costa Concordia only to
>> find itself in a cabin with two Koreans.
>>
:-))))
|
Who fancies a cruise? - BobbyG
