***** This thread is now closed, please CLICK HERE to go to Volume 8 *****
Ongoing discussion about the riots.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 23 Aug 11 at 21:45
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...Ongoing discussion about the riots...
Time for a little drift, I feel.
Apart from the likes of 'unusual sightings' and 'F1', is this the longest thread we've ever had on car4play?
Last edited by: Iffy on Wed 17 Aug 11 at 10:56
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>>Welcome back Dog !<<
Thanks PUR.P. - I've been without an internet connection for 4 weeks! thanks to BT, sorted now (I Hope)
4 weeks is toooo long, does funny things to the head :)
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>>+1...<<
Cheers gord, at least I've been doing plenty of walking!
I even dusted orf the ole Bullworker + played with my dumbbells as I've got 60 bags of Taybrite coming soon :)
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Perro!
Ennuis techniques eh? I feared.... oh, never mind.
Woof!
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>>Ennuis techniques eh? I feared<<
At the exchange Lud, ... a major outage at Lostwithiel, they said!
I don't live anywhere near Lostwithiel :)
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Sentencing remarks iro various scrotes taking part in Manchester/Salford looting.
www.judiciary.gov.uk/media/judgments/2011/sentencing-remarks-r-v-carter-and-others
(small pdf)
Interesting both for the judge's comments on the effects on the area and for the clear insight into his rationale generally in in each individual case.
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There was interesting interview on the radio this morning with a Professor of Riot Studies or something, who said that what actually happens is that people naturally tend to do what the crowd does. So if the crowd riots or loots, even quite decent people get drawn to copy.
That explains both our and their own puzzlement when they wake up in the cold grey light of dawn. He said recognising that did present a paradox for sentencing policy - harsher penalties because the crime was more serious in the context, or more lenient because they had been led astray?
In truth the real reason we punish people is for vengeance. Apart from locking up axe-murderers, no one has any idea why exactly we want to punish wrongdoers. It just makes us feel better, and might perhaps deter a few.
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I quite like the orange jumpsuit idea ~ name & shame, deport if not UK resident, tattoo with large W on forehead etc.
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An interesting perspective?
www.economist.com/blogs/bagehot/2011/08/civil-disorder-and-looting-hits-britain-0
Let us all return to 'Victorian Values', a time when Britain was really safe.
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>>>Let us all return to 'Victorian Values', a time when Britain was really safe.
What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.
Ecclesiastes 1:9
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...I quite like the orange jumpsuit idea...
Serving prisoners occasionally appear in court, usually for thumping another prisoner or a prison officer.
One particularly nasty lifer was presented by the jail wearing a bright yellow jumpsuit.
It didn't have arrows on it, but it did have HMP whatever in bold letters on the back.
The idea is that should the prisoner escape, he will be easy to spot.
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>>It didn't have arrows on it, but it did have HMP whatever in bold letters on the back.<<
Ah, that's a pity - it would look nice with little black arrows all over it.
I always thought Detention Centres were a good idea (short sharp shock),
I was in HMDC Send in Surrey c1968 for 3 months and I kept out of trouble (more or less) since then,
I didn't realise (then) that they were based on Army discipline, but thinking back, well - say n'more!!
Perhaps a form of National Service wouldn't be such a bad idea really, especially with the high youth unemployment.
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>>Perhaps a form of National Service wouldn't be such a bad idea really, especially with the high youth unemployment
You will just get thugs trained to kill more efficiently.
The army don't want them, they want professional soldiers.
Better use the money improving skills, attitude and employability so the jobs don't go to imported labour.
The rich would send their little darlings abroad for the National Service period.
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>>You will just get thugs trained to kill more efficiently. <<
Yes & no zippo - my elder brother did 2 years National Service and it did him the world of good,
It's the discipline thing ya see, it instills lasting values in a young impressionable person IMO.
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPj3tqAN3SU&feature=player_embedded
Sound quality is poor but this fellow talks some common sense, pity we don't have a few like him here.
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Hello Dog nice to see you back.
I spend two years in Dordrecht boarding schipperschool with my brother.
Used to get a regular caning from the teachers ;)
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I did some dog training in Dordrecht!
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>>Hello Dog nice to see you back<<
Thanks Dutchie, I remember back in the 60's while at School, if a master was a soft touch, we would (and did) crucify him,
But, if he was a stern disciplinarian (like my Geography master) we would keep our heads down and get on with the lesson.
Nuf sed.
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>>
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>> The idea is that should the prisoner escape, he will be easy to spot.
>>
>>
>>
It used to be fashionable to wear jackets saying " *** State Penitentiary".
I never realised these were real escaped convicts.
Where can I get one of these orange jackets? I'd like to try an experiment.
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...Where can I get one of these orange jackets? I'd like to try an experiment...
The yellow one I saw bore a resemblance to a Norwich City FC top.
I'm sure the club shop would print 'HMP Belmarsh' on the back for you, instead of the name of their star striker, which would be the more usual request.
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Does anyone think there is the slightest risk that I would be challenged, even if I went up to a policeman and politely asked him the time?
I suspect that the plan would fail because I just don't look like a criminal. Deception works because the deceiver thinks himself into the role and almost believes it.
Like the WW2 airman who escaped from a German POW camp simply by strolling out through the gates in full uniform and nodding curtly to the guards.
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>>I just don't look like a criminal.
I'm not exactly sure what a criminal looks like. I have known three people who have spent quite long spells in prison, and I would challenge anyone to identify them as criminals based solely on their looks or appearance.
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Robert Maxwell looked like a very nice man. As does Johnathan Aitken and Jeffrey Archer.
They were or are all criminals..
Last edited by: madf on Thu 18 Aug 11 at 14:55
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>> Robert Maxwell looked like a very nice man.
You are a very bad judge indeed! Robert Maxwell looked and acted as slippery as a snake!
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What happened to him?Mr Maxwell I still think he lives or died somewhere in South Amerika.
Spoke perfect English do.
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He went for a swim and never came back, probably weighed down by all the gelt he stole from peoples pensions.
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Aye geld what would we do without it.Wasn't Maxwell a war hero before he came to the UK.?
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Ukranian Ján Ludvík Hoch, (Maxwell) won the MC during the second world war.
BUt then you have to say that Kim Philby got an OBE!
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>> Ukranian Ján Ludvík Hoch, (Maxwell) won the MC during the second world war.
>>
>>
Czech actually. My father in law served with him in the allied Czech forces during the war. Apparently he was slimy even then.
His birthplace became part of the Ukraine after the war.
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>> Czech actually. My father in law served with him in the allied Czech forces during
>> the war. Apparently he was slimy even then.
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>> His birthplace became part of the Ukraine after the war.
Ruthenian, to be precise. Ruthenia moved from Czechosolvakia to Ukraine after the war.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpathian_Ruthenia
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...Ruthenian, to be precise...
Good to know, but 'bouncing Ruthenian' doesn't have the same ring as 'bouncing Czech'.
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Robert the Ruthless Ruthenian?
Robert the Ruthenian Rogue?
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 22 Aug 11 at 13:38
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>> Good to know, but 'bouncing Ruthenian' doesn't have the same ring as 'bouncing Czech'.
Aye, but Ruthenia is at the other end of Slovakia, not, erm, Czechia (OK, Bohemia then). So "Czech" was never really an appropriate term for the scoundrel. Especially given his original, Germanic surname.
Never let the truth get in the way of a good headline, eh Iffy? First rule of certain tabloids, I'd wager.
;-)
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...Never let the truth get in the way of a good headline, eh Iffy?...
If only you knew....
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Rumoured to have KGB and Mossad connections too. The latter has been named theoretically in speculation about his unexplained drowning.
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Strictly between me and thee, I heard he went on the Slimfast plan and morphed into a Rupert Murdock lookalike.
:o)
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>> You are a very bad judge indeed! Robert Maxwell looked and acted as slippery as a snake!
The other two named always looked pretty ripe to me too.
An expensive whistle, plenty of aftershave and a smug come-on do not an old-fashioned English gent make.
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New Lord's Prayer for 21st Century Britain
Our father, who art in prison, only mum know's his name, thy riots come, read it in the Sun, in Birmingham, as it is in London. Give us this day our welfare bread & forgive us our looting, as we're happy to loot those who defend stuff against us. Lead us not into employment, but deliver us free housing, for thine is the spliff, the blackberry & the lager, forever & ever ........... innit
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Now the Royals are at it!! just heard on the news that Will an Kate have been in Brum trying to"lift Spirits"!!
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Royals have been professional looters for a millennia..."..
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I think leaders and Royals invented Looting and Pillaging didn't they?
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I wonder about the value of morale boosting visits.
Firefighters and a shopkeeper were interviewed after being glad-handed by Prince Harry.
They all seemed pleased he had been to see them.
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>>Royals have been professional looters for a millennia<<
And the Gov! ... I could also mention the church (but I wont)
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My ancestors were Border cattle thieves..
Most of us are descendants from Saxon raiders, Viking raiders or Normans...
So basically we're all descended from thieving scum... so we get the royalty, church , MPs, bankers and rioters we deserve...(people like us:-)
Last edited by: madf on Sat 20 Aug 11 at 13:38
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>> My ancestors were Border cattle thieves..
>>
>> Most of us are descendants from Saxon raiders, Viking raiders or Normans...
>>
>> So basically we're all descended from thieving scum... so we get the royalty, church ,
>> MPs, bankers and rioters we deserve...(people like us:-)
>>
You speak for yourself! I'm not descended from any of those groups. I'm an Irish Celt, and as we all know there's not a nicer bunch of introverted, mild-mannered, law-abiding pacifists on the planet.
Rioters? Pah! No such thing as an Irish Hooligan.
(Can I take my tongue out of my cheek now, please? It's getting uncomfortable)
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Im descended from sephardic jews, no wonder I have a persecution complex.
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I'm descended from the apes, which is why I like bananas.
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That's telling them X... some forceful points.
But just the voice of the wounded taxpayer after all, Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells...
I did enjoy it though. I lie a salty polemic even from a geezer with mad staring eyes who in real life might get a bit tiring after a while.
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>> //dotsub.com/view/6474921d-8943-443b-9128-de62aa3b3e54
>>
He's not wrong though..is he?
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>> He's not wrong though..is he?
Like Theodore Dalrymple whom I cited in the last volume, Wp, this ranter makes a lot of sound points but distorts the overall picture.
Righteous indignation, as I am sure police training must din into young officers, is very bad for one's overall judgement. The trees loom so large that you can't see the shape of the wood.
A society is a big, coarse thing, big enough to shrug off carping from the sidelines. But that doesn't mean it's a simple thing, and it doesn't mean some of the details aren't quite subtle and hard to grasp.
2 cents' worth.
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Id resisted the temptation to watch the clip given the source, but actually, my cousin was rather more colourful than him, he is something of a lightweight - she was talking about having the youths hung in public by their unmentionables along with other equally inventive punishments, god love her.
I cant disagree with his slant on here vs Somalia, its an extremely valid point. Even at our poorest, we nearly always are better off than a huge number of people from 3rd world countries, we are too encouraged to look for the negative because we have as a society been told we can expect so much and invariably it isnt actually possible for everyone to live the life of a footballer - most people its just paying for a home, a car maybe, raise a family, watch the pennies and have a modest holiday each year while saving for retirement, thats as much as most people can expect.
Ive long thought that in this country, we have abandoned the basic notion of general respect for others - yes we fall over ourselves to respect certain people at certain times because legislation says so, although this is only really the preserve of self-important jobsworths.
What is wrong with treating everyone in a polite and decent manner, thinking about how you behave and making a proper effort not to be disrespectful in all dealings with people - we just dont seem to care enough about it until we have a riot, so what does that say about us, the silent majority who turn a blind eye until our complacency about fundamental morality comes back to bite us?
I do wonder if the fall of religion in the UK has some part in this, mainly because morality atleast in the UK is based loosely on an adaptation of religious doctrine, but as people have abandoned organised religion in their droves, so the messages of morality reach fewer young people at a time when their philosophy for life is forming.
Perhaps it is a little much to expect todays smart alec kids to believe they will be struck by a bolt of Gods lightening for their misdeeds, but the fear of reprisal, consequences of actions, seems ever lacking, so even the fear of getting a beatdown from a big fella with a baton has some value.
I want the police to hit hard, they should be the strong arm of the law, they are the first contact a criminal has with the state when it imposes its rule of right and wrong on someone, they should be feared and their authority respected. It must be excrutiating for them having their hands so tied from every direction.
Im not sure you can instill morality at this late stage though, it could take a generation or more even if there was the will to mak eit happen, but I fear there isnt.
After all the head shaking stops, it will be back to sending them to Alton Towers while those who did get sent down have their human right to do whatever they like reinstated and we go back to the status quo. Can bet your life on it.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 26 Aug 11 at 01:51
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>> He's not wrong though..is he?
As is common, he makes so many points that saying he is right or wrong would need a 400 point rebuttal.
He is wrong on various points, for example by saying "who needs a job when you can deal drugs? That's where the real money is."
the vast majority of drug dealers would make far more money in even menial jobs.
Even the inference that all of the rioters are some how well off, is also clearly nonsense. But with that one nonsense statement, he completely dismisses unemployment as a potential underlying cause.
That's not to say that he is wrong about everything, but there is no coherent argument that can be rebutted or said to be true (without the 400 point analysis).
from "water cannons" to "trousers halfway down their legs" to "drug dealing" in the space of 20 seconds.
Last edited by: SteelSpark on Sun 21 Aug 11 at 17:48
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>> For once, I agree with Tony Blair -
>>
>> www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8713808/Tony-Blair-attacks-muddle-headed-analysis-of-UK-riots.html
>>
Hmm I find it difficult to take anything Mr Blair says at face value given he is a confirmed liar. He also had a huge majority and loadsofmoney when in power to identify and start solving these problems..
Another "don't do as I do, do as I say" politician.
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>> the vast majority of drug dealers would make far more money in even menial jobs.
Trouble is they are too lazy and/or are unemployable and/or would find a menial jon 'beneath them'...so it's benefits and drug dealing instead. The menial job is not part of the equation.
>>
>> Even the inference that all of the rioters are some how well off, is also
>> clearly nonsense. But with that one nonsense statement, he completely dismisses unemployment as a potential
>> underlying cause.
Well how come vast amounts of unemployed people do not go out committing crime..and actively seek work....and have some pride in their community and don't pee in the lift or vanadalise the bus stop or riot etc, etc....
....and then some of these people who have rioted seem to be able to afford £100 trainers, flash mobile phones and flat screen t.v.'s at home etc...which when you compare to some people in the world who are truly poor, must seem like they are well off. In fact, walk in to the average British pensioner's house....there isn't usually much spare cash to show in there, is there? So it's a matter of priorities.
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>> But with that one nonsense statement, he completely dismisses unemployment as a
>> potential
>> >> underlying cause.
>>
>> Well how come vast amounts of unemployed people do not go out committing crime..and actively
>> seek work....and have some pride in their community and don't pee in the lift or
>> vanadalise the bus stop or riot etc, etc....
>>
>> ....and then some of these people who have rioted seem to be able to afford
>> £100 trainers, flash mobile phones and flat screen t.v.'s at home etc...
Because people are different, have different backgrounds and respond differently to circumstances. Unemployment, lack of education, existing criminal record etc, don't cause the criminality, they just make it more likely. It doesn't make a criminal response justified, but it also doesn't mean that the underlying factor should be ignored.
A lot of people seem to keep confusing "X making a certain behaviour more likely" with "X being an excuse for that behaviour".
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>> >> //dotsub.com/view/6474921d-8943-443b-9128-de62aa3b3e54
>> >>
>>
>> He's not wrong though..is he?
Actually in many respects he is. Trouble with people like this is that they throw the baby out with the bath water and any semblance of sense or credibility he has disappeared with some of the crap that came out of his mouth. His ilk are just as bad as those he is complaining about.
Same fence different side.
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His ilk
>> are just as bad as those he is complaining about.
See, now I don't think they are.
He might well be a subtle (ish) extreme right winger who is grabbing some attention from people who are more centre minded or right of centre...and who wouldn't normally listen to someone like him....but....he hasn't gone out and committed any crime. He's merely voiced his opinion.
So I do not think he's as bad.
He might not even be an extremist....but I suspect he possibly is, but that doesn't mean that to some his message doesn't match their thoughts on this subject matter, whether he's an extremist or not.
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>> So I do not think he's as bad.
>>
>> He might not even be an extremist....but I suspect he possibly is, but that doesn't
>> mean that to some his message doesn't match their thoughts on this subject matter, whether
>> he's an extremist or not.
He is not an extremist, he is burning with hate and bile. The insults, and they do end up as just insults, build up into an almost demonic level, with no basis in fact. Ends up burying any salient points he made earlier in his rant.
Plus, if he goes around thinking these people are stupid, he will end up being buried. Uneducated, possibly evil and lacking in morals they may be, but Stupid?
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>> He is not an extremist, he is burning with hate and bile.
Well I must be burning with hate and bile as well then...and haven't noticed it.
I remain slightly uneasy about the potential of being played by someone who is extreme right and being subtle compared to their usual rants...but apart from that and i'm not sure whether he is or he isn't, I think a lot of what he says resonates with a good deal of people in this country, inc me.
I know he slips at times e.g. the comment about trousers around their knees or whatever he said, that's aimed at one part of society in particular..and that's why it has me being wary..because although I don't have a problem with someone letting rip on any part of society if its' needed, some as we know will do so automatically, whether it's right or wrong.
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Well I am not going to go back into it and quote the parts I mean, for gawds sake he goes on and on about it for 6 minutes!, but I am pretty sure there is much in there you wouldnt think or say.
Anyway, I never trust anyone who sets up a website just for the purpose of ranting, many times and often.
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>> Well I am not going to go back into it and quote the parts I
>> mean, for gawds sake he goes on and on about it for 6 minutes!, but
>> I am pretty sure there is much in there you wouldnt think or say.
>>
>> Anyway, I never trust anyone who sets up a website just for the purpose of
>> ranting, many times and often.
To be fair, it is his job. He has books and DVDs to flog.
He is not an academic who has actually studied this, he is a sometime comedian, trying to make a living from this stuff.
He probably wouldn't sell as many books and DVDs if he started his videos with "Listen guys, this is a complicated issue, with lots of underlying issues that we need to understand and weigh..."
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>>Plus, if he goes around thinking these people are stupid, he will end up being buried. Uneducated, possibly evil and lacking in morals they may be, but Stupid?<<
Rioting isnt isnt generally considered the height of intelligent behavior, then again, maybe I just dont move in the same circles as you. I wont be hailing my son a genius if he sets the corner shop alight.
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>> Rioting isnt isnt generally considered the height of intelligent behavior,
University Students do it often enough.
>>then again, maybe I just dont move in the same circles as you.
Behave
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>>University Students do it often enough<<
Knowledge and intelligence arent the same thing. Ive met plenty of uni students who lack plain common sense but can tell you all about the dna of plants in great detail.
Knowing stuff is all very well, but if you cant do something useful with it, your still a moron.
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I knew someone at school who was very intelligent and went to Oxford. But he had no practical/common sense.
In a craft/design type lesson he struggled. We were told to colour/shade our drawings with 'crayons' as in coloured pencils. He used wax crayons as in what you'd give a child :-) Suppose he did what he was told. Drawing something like a table he couldn't grasp isometric drawing and his table legs all pointed in different directions. To him it looked okay. Very strange as he was so bright in other subjects.
Last edited by: rtj70 on Mon 22 Aug 11 at 10:49
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@ rtj70 ... Lad was possibly on the autistic spectrum (ASD)
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Dog, had not thought of that. But something not wired up have drawn a table and had the legs sticking in different directions and think it looked okay! :-)
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>>Dog, had not thought of that. But something not wired up have drawn a table and had the legs sticking in different directions and think it looked okay!<<
Probably just mad like moi.
:-D
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>> He used wax crayons as in what you'd give a
>> child
>>
It's news to me that "crayon" means anything else. I must be sub-moronic.
Doesn't "charcoal" mean the stuff in the grate that you eat?
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>> It's news to me that "crayon" means anything else. I must be sub-moronic.
e.g.
www.fredaldous.co.uk/art-shop/pens-pencils-markers/pencil-crayons.html
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>> >> He used wax crayons as in what you'd give a
>> >> child
>> >>
>>
>>
>> It's news to me that "crayon" means anything else. I must be sub-moronic.
Maybe different meaning regionally or in different schools but we called coloured pencils 'pencil crayons'.
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Isn't it great how we've managed to get on to pencil crayons from a thread on rioting!
Maybe if those rioting had a better upbringing and education it would not have happened.
I read recently that there is a growing number of children who do not know their name when they start school aged four. And some do not know they even have a name! That is both shocking and sad.
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So this chap was told to use a crayon. He did. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crayon
You think he should have used a "pencil crayon" and continue to lambast him years later as he always made you feel intellectually inferior.
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Crayon was an essential part of any modern pop art artist.
You just didn't appreciate his work. Who's to say a tables legs should all go the same way anyway, you philistine conformist.
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>> lambast him years later as he always made you feel intellectually inferior.
You're jumping to some conclusions there - as he was intellectually inferior to me. I had far better O level and A level results. I think he only got an A and 2 B's at A level whereas I got 3As.
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>> >> he was intellectually inferior to me.
>>
That's why he only got into Oxford? :)
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:) His offer for Oxford was for 3Es. He was a very good cricketer as well.
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I had forgotten those were the days when A-level requirements were paradoxically in reverse order to brilliance. If one was offered a place requiring 3 A and 2 S (old style = A-level plus) it meant they didn't really want you. But conversely 3 Es meant they were so impressed that by one's innate ability that virtually any old result would do.
One or two clever people at my school got unconditional offers on interview alone. One eccentric promptly left school and didn't bother to take A-levels at all - he said he had more important things to do with his time while waiting to go up.
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Just learned today that a cousin of my BiL was rammed side on be a car containing a boot full of looted goods that was being pursued by the police on the Monday of the riots. He is unhurt though a bit battered and shaken but his wife is in hospital with spinal injuries that can't be operated on yet because she has blood on a lung.
I don't know the full details yet but the live in Clayhall, NE London and they were not far from home when it happened. I used to know them both well about 20 years ago as he was also a driving instructor. Brings it home when someone you know is a victim.
Last edited by: Robin Regal on Mon 22 Aug 11 at 21:09
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Last edited by: bathtub tom on Mon 22 Aug 11 at 22:49
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That does bring it home - I sincerely hope she receives the treatment needed and makes a full recovery.
And those that caused this need locking up for a long time.
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>>I sincerely hope she receives the treatment needed and makes a full recovery.
Ditto!
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>> I had forgotten those were the days when A-level requirements were paradoxically in reverse order to brilliance
I visited my preferred choice university after getting a letter saying in précis that I could negotiate grades. I went and towards the end of the interview I was asked what my offer of grades would be! Took me by surprise. Not sure what the lowest grade could be (and no points system then as such) but basically I had to get an E or better.
Took me by surprise a bit.... negotiate = I name the grade. So knowing I ought to do well I asked for a C and two D's. Thought if I went for 3Es they might not be happy. Got 3A grades as it happens (including Maths and Physics which were two mandatory subjects).
Different now. Even my cat has 3 A's. :-)
Edit: And the £1/2 range in my Tesco of special offers has wax crayons at £1. :-)
Last edited by: rtj70 on Tue 23 Aug 11 at 01:29
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>> Different now. Even my cat has 3 A's. :-)
That's impressive - I thought they only got MiaOw levels.
I'll bet one of them is in Computing - cat's are good at operating a mouse.
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My dog has 5 A's and one H
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AAAAAh!
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do.
>>
>> One or two clever people at my school got unconditional offers on interview alone. One
>> eccentric promptly left school and didn't bother to take A-levels at all - he said
>> he had more important things to do with his time while waiting to go up.
Still happening today. Friend of daughter has brain the size of a planet. Wants to do a foreign language degree. Walked out of Oxford on interview day deciding it was not for her. Accepted at a Russell group uni with an offer of 3xE which of course she beat by a wide margin.
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Locked and new Volume started to accommodate a renewed discussion just started.
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Riotous Assembly Volume 7 - Iffy
