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Tracking and discussing the current events
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 17 Aug 11 at 13:24
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So how do you make the rioters pay?
Certainly some of the punishments have been odd:
Person 1 - Riotous behavior £60 fine but let off as they had spent 21 hours in cells already.
Person 2 - Stealing a bottle of mineral water - no existing criminal record - 6 months porridge.
Person 3 - Magistrates referring case to crown court as insufficient sentencing powers.
I don't know the answers, but I would have thought that getting the scroates seriously involved in some really mucky clean up work would do wonders. Also, let them spend serious time with the people from the Sony warehouse, the furniture shop etc that they have put out of work. Let them meet the people that they have put out of a home. If they don't every know the victims they will never know the true extent of the damage that they have done.
Make them pay financially. And take it. Not by reducing their benefits. Wait till they get the cash and then take a chunk of it. If they don't pay up then send them to prison for a week. Repeat until the damages are paid off (and like the student loans they may never be paid off) but it will make a point.
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>>Repeat until the damages are paid off (and like the student loans they may never be
>>paid off) but it will make a point.
To the taxpayer who will really enjoy paying for it.
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Peter Oborne's piece in today's Terrorflag covers much the same ground as Mary Liddell's the other day, and makes some of the same points that I have made here, notably the one about highly visible immoral thuggish complacent greed at the 'top' of society inevitably being reflected at the 'bottom'.
Like Mary Liddell and me, no doubt he will be called a 'pinko lefty' by some of the weaker sisters here. Amazing how these pinkos hang on at the Terrorflag really, almost as amazing as pinkos reading the rag.
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Usually, Oborne is a bell end. Ex-Wail.
Today, he's right.
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Yes, when he first appeared I couldn't stand him, right-wing twozzer of the worst sort I thought. But he has improved remarkably, and done some quite sound bleeding-heart TV as well.
There are quite a few columnists etc. on that paper I find annoying, but the one who takes the biscuit is Damian Thompson. Jumped-up office boy and utter prat.
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>> Peter Oborne's piece in today's Terrorflag covers much the same ground as Mary Liddell's the
>> other day, and makes some of the same points that I have made here, notably
>> the one about highly visible immoral thuggish complacent greed at the 'top' of society inevitably
>> being reflected at the 'bottom'.
>>
One is legal and was approved by the Government of the day, the other is not approved and is illegal. So the comparison is superficial ......like the journalist...
Oborne is and always has been a waste of space..
Last edited by: madf on Fri 12 Aug 11 at 15:20
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madf: like others here, you appear to be confused about the distinction between legality and morality.
Still, it must make sweeping judgements, and blanket dismissal of people who actually do things and say things, easier for you.
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>> madf: like others here, you appear to be confused about the distinction between legality and
>> morality.
>>
>> Still, it must make sweeping judgements, and blanket dismissal of people who actually do things
>> and say things, easier for you.
>>
Morality lies in the judgement of the beholder. Legality is law. Simples. If you judged our society by the morals of the ultra strict Muslims, we have women unveiled driving. That's immoral by their standards. But it's legal.
Blanket dismissal of people who do things:?
Oborne stated:
"I cannot accept that this is the case. Indeed, I believe that the criminality in our streets cannot be dissociated from the moral disintegration in the highest ranks of modern British society. The last two decades have seen a terrifying decline in standards among the British governing elite. It has become acceptable for our politicians to lie and to cheat. An almost universal culture of selfishness and greed has grown up."
Now that implies politicians pre the 1990s were honourable, decent and did not lie and cheat..
So Lloyd George never sold peerages?.
Lord Boothby never committed perjury when he sued a newspaper and won for printing about his homosexual affairs with the Kray Brothers?
John Stonehouse never faked his own suicide?
And Christine Keeler never had affairs with two Government Ministers?
And Reginald Maudling was not forced out of office because of the Poulson affair..
That's just off the cuff. British politicians have a long history of lies, corruption , sexual scandals and other nefarious goings on.. The events of the past two decades pale into insignificance.
But hey, don't let facts spoil a good story..
Last edited by: madf on Fri 12 Aug 11 at 15:50
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HaHa!
It took a while, but I got there :)
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Obviously morality varies from one place to another madf. And incidentally, things that really have nothing to do with morality - like women driving cars or going unveiled - are forced on populations in the guise of morality, and not only in societies where a backward Islamism holds sway.
But it isn't just 'in the eye of the beholder'. It is something generally understood, even by those who wish to deny it or violate it.
Perhaps you are right when you criticize Peter Oborne for exaggerating or imagining the recent origins of the decline in public morality at the top, although I don't doubt that he would and could defend what he said.
But that's really beside the point. Yobbishness at the top will certainly be seen as a justification, usually quite unconsciously, by yobs at the bottom. No one said there was anything especially new about it. But the details will have changed over time. Cod or hake, it still rots from the head down.
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Our politicians are certainly not saints are they..but...compared to some places, in fact many places...they are certainly reasonable or at the higher end of the bracket.
So why should our 'yoof' riot and steal then?..That is just an excuse.
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I don't disagree with you (or Oborne ) in principle AC.. but his article was just full of exaggerations and inaccuracies.
For example, he also bewailed the tax avoidance of Sir Richard Branson and others by being resident abroad as if it was a new thing. Well, I can remember when a famous Scots actor who made fame and fortune through James Bond became a tax exile.. as did Michael Caine. In the 1970s.
He just also omitted to mention that the Guardian Group (which preaches against tax avoidance) managed to save paying Corporation Tax on the £350M profits on the sale of Auotrader by using an overseas subsidiary..Perhaps he felt embarrassed because the Barclay Brothers are also resident abroad and pay no tax... Oh yes.. The Barclays own the Telegraph - and he was writing IN the Telegraph..silly me..
So an article which exaggerated and was full of hypocrisy. In other words, what passes for journalism today...
If people are going to preach virtue and work for a company which does not practise what they preach....You can perhaps understand why I am rather disparaging...
EDIT: And I agree with Westpig above. Excuses for breaking the law are NOT a reason to break it...
Last edited by: madf on Fri 12 Aug 11 at 17:27
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>> I agree with Westpig above. Excuses for breaking the law are NOT a reason to break it...
Dear oh dear. I'm surprised at you - and Westpig actually - still banging on about 'excuses' after all that has been said.
It isn't a damn excuse either for individuals or the mass of rioters/looters. There aren't any 'excuses' that apply in this country. The only one that possibly could apply - literal starvation for the individual, his wife or his children - doesn't happen here.
Things happen for reasons, often complex tangles of reasons. The reasons may not interest everyone, but that doesn't mean they have no importance. Indeed any attempt to ensure that 'it doesn't happen again' is doomed to failure without some idea of what caused 'it' in the first place.
Seems simple to me, but obviously really difficult for some. I don't understand that at all.
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>> Things happen for reasons, often complex tangles of reasons. The reasons may not interest everyone,
>> but that doesn't mean they have no importance. Indeed any attempt to ensure that 'it
>> doesn't happen again' is doomed to failure without some idea of what caused 'it' in
>> the first place.
>>
>> Seems simple to me, but obviously really difficult for some. I don't understand that at
>> all.
>>
All these excuses make me sick. People loot because they want an adrenalin rush and/or they are ******* greedy..simple as that.
There are plenty of jobs in our capital city...the bars and pubs in Central London are full of Aussies..the local councils always have street cleaner vacancies...but of course that is 'beneath them'. Well try working for peanuts in India or Thailand or various other places all over the world..if you can get a job that is...where a riot would end up with lethal force. Over here we have the minimum wage and social benefits. There's just no need for it.
We all know people who have worked damned hard, they start with nothing and eventually it bears fruit. Look at the Indians Idi Amin threw out...2 generations later they are mostly professionals..we as a nation might have taken the 'p' out of their corner shops, but they worked every hour they could, gave us all a service that wasn't there before and gave their kids a future. Good luck to them.
I have no sympathy whatsoever for these scum. If you want something work for it. It would be potentially different if we were talking about a town with a devastated industry and literally no work prospects...but we are not....and how many of those towns have had riots like this?
These recent riots are inexcusable criminality, nothing more, nothing less.
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>> These recent riots are inexcusable criminality, nothing more, nothing less.
Everyone knows that and agrees Wp. It has been repeated many times.
But it doesn't get us any forrarder.
Perhaps nothing will or can. But what is the point of trying to shut people up, accusing them of making excuses, justifying criminality and so on, when they try to work out what it is in the wider setting that unleashed all the inexcusable criminality? Because something did, over and above the alleged spark of the Duggan shooting.
It isn't a sign of 'sympathy' for the rioters and looters to want to know why they have done it. It's just a sign of common sense. Because we certainly don't want it to happen again when they have got their breath back in five or ten years' time.
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Hell's teeth, I agree with AC, balance restored.
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Might not be to the average Daily Mail reader's taste, but certainly some very good stuff in here.
www.jrf.org.uk/
www.jrf.org.uk/blog/2011/08/beware-stereotypes
Last edited by: R.P. on Fri 12 Aug 11 at 21:13
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>> Might not be to the average Daily Mail reader's taste, but certainly some very good
>> stuff in here.
>>
>> www.jrf.org.uk/
Including the statement that
Key points
A single person needs to earn at least £15,000 a year before tax in 2011, to afford a minimum acceptable standard of living. A couple with a single earner and two children need at least £31,600.
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That's me even more stuffed then.
My employers went bust this week - 20 of us out of a job.
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Sorry to hear that Dave....hope something turns up.
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Thanks. Early days yet, and my 4 year old's here for a week now, but I'm on the case. At least I get my Friday nights back :)
Last edited by: Dave_TDCi on Fri 12 Aug 11 at 21:57
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Sorry to hear that Dave :( Hopefully you will be able to find a new job soon.
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>> Sorry to hear that Dave :( Hopefully you will be able to find a new
>> job soon.
>>
+1
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Thanks guys.
As is the way of these things, they've sprung up in the form of a phoenix company almost immediately, but complications with Operators Licensing mean they won't be able to employ any drivers for several weeks, possibly months. I can't wait that long, so I'm going to take this opportunity to find something closer to home and with more family-friendly hours (as opposed to 13 miles away and 4pm-1am on Friday nights plus ad hoc days in the week, which is how I've been working for the last year).
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>> employ any drivers for several weeks, possibly months. I can't wait that long, so I'm
>> going to take this opportunity to find something closer to home and with more family-friendly
The best of luck Dave, damned sorry to hear of your situation.
what worked for me was the direct approach, can't beat putting a face and attitude to customers straight in the door.
not trying to teach you to suck eggs so apologies if it sounds obvious, just sometimes with the enormity of searching and the proliferations of agencies to apply to and through it can be overlooked.
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>> employ any drivers for several weeks, possibly months. I can't wait that long, so I'm
>> going to take this opportunity to find something closer to home and with more family-friendly
>> hours
In these days one cant afford to limit oneself about the where and the when, but good luck to you if you manage it,.
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>> one cant afford to limit oneself about the where and the when
I'll only lose about £50 a week when I take into account free school meals, housing benefit, less maintenance to pay etc so its not the end of our world. As has been mentioned on here before, I've become quite adept at running things on a shoestring, the bankruptcy is due to be discharged in around 10 weeks and thankfully I'm 100% up to date with all the household bills right now. Kept gas and electric card meters both at £100 credit too. We won't starve.
Tbh job security was my biggest source of stress, perversely now that I know where I stand it's a weight off my mind.
Last edited by: Dave_TDCi on Fri 12 Aug 11 at 23:15
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I hope you find something suitable very soon, Dave. I know you won't give up the search!
Good luck.
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.....and a pensioner couple need £ ?????
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>> .....and a pensioner couple need £ ?????
A damn site less.
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>> It isn't a sign of 'sympathy' for the rioters and looters to want to know
>> why they have done it.
I can answer that one. Our sink estates are full of people who get things for sod all. They have no sense of worth or sense of achievement because they don't and won't do anything, the benfits system is far too easy.
Chuck in some single mothers and absent fathers, so the kids have no role model and the mum can't/won't cope and the kids are not brought up in an environment of boundaries and sanctions, so they can learn acceptable behaviour.
Low morals spring forth, so a bit of hooky gear is now acceptable...then sod all education because the trendy brigade have now prevented any form of discipline worth its' salt in a school.
The end result is a kid going nowhere, who thinks nothing of crime, respects no one..but the gang they join, that's the most solid camaraderie they've either ever had or had for years.
Then when there's a half hearted chance for an excuse...you're up and running. Usually it's just robberies and a bit of shoplifting.... and that happens day in day out. This time it became more and seemed a bit more organised, which is worrying and has me wondering if subversive elements arranged it..or maybe it was just the ease of social networks etc.
Finally, sod all penalty at courts for our underclasses...and there you have it. Modern Britain.
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I forgot to say...
The riots recently were a race thing, because it involved, to start with, young black men lobbing stuff at the Old Bill outside Tottenham nick...then some older (older than the youths) black folk went on the looting spree....
...but, this isn't generally a race thing...the disaffected element i.e. the 'have nots' are all over the country and can easily be white folk...but...if there is race involved it makes it harder for the Old Bill to deal...because political correctness and the race card are played to emasculate any decent response to it.
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"Diversity and Doughnuts" to quote a well respected blogger.
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>> Finally, sod all penalty at courts for our underclasses...and there you have it. Modern Britain.
Those are all solid points Wp, polemical language apart. Single mothers, absent fathers are very important.
But it still doesn't really explain it, anyway to my satisfaction. Unless you are blaming it ultimately on successive governments which have allowed 'modern Britain' to evolve as it has, sabotaged education and all. That would be quite convincing.
Be careful though. Someone is sure to accuse you of making excuses for the little beasts, and that will annoy you. It has certainly annoyed me.
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>> Unless you are blaming
>> it ultimately on successive governments which have allowed 'modern Britain' to evolve as it has,
>> sabotaged education and all. That would be quite convincing.
There are some folk in life who will only ever understand strength. From Saddam Hussein to the next corner mugger...they will not listen in the slightest to the next well meant chat..but they will take notice of the metaphorical kick in the rear. It matters not what their background was, whose fault it was, they need to be taught, through strength, that their actions are not acceptable...and in a cvilised society..the weak should be supported by the strong..so that they (the weak) have the same support and positive existence as the strong.
At the moment, we leave our eldery, disabled, poor...in the very places that these scum live...and some decent people's lives are pure misery...because the rest of us can buy our way out of it...leaving the needy behind. That to me is shocking. If we are supposed to be cvilised, why do we allow it?
In this country the 'strong' should be the Old Bill and the Criminal Justice system, with rigorous checking procedures for obvious reasons (which we have in place anyway). The trouble is our 'strength' has been diluted, badly, by having the Old Bill have to continuously look over their shoulder should they make a mistake and/or a weakish criminal justice system and a laughable sentencing policy...so the very people who need a harsh shock to keep them on the straight and narrow..get nothing (to them, the rest of us would be mortified to get any kind of penalty from a court).
So as well as poor Govt doctrine for years, mixed up with political correctness, permissive 60's and all that...I well and truly blame the liberal minded who have foisted their ideas of the rest of us... they haven't worked and we are now 'reaping what we have sown'.
By all means steer a confused and neglected kid in the right direction with love, support, kindess etc...but when it's gone too far or it's too late, he needs his backside kicked...
...and I disassociate myself totally from the continuously kicking his rear right from the word go...It's a balance that's needed, but the one extreme (child abuse) shouldn't preclude the other (lawful chastisement of a child), then maybe we wouldn't be discussing this... because if the parents don't bother, at least the schools might have half a chance of instilling some self discipline and/or educating some of these people and getting them out of their underclass existence in the first place...and if they didn't, they'd be spending an inordinant amount of their time in prison..(and that should be an unpleasant experience, not the hotel it is now).
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 13 Aug 11 at 18:37
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The essence of liberalism is that someone is free to what they wish as long as they don't harm anyone else. It's not a liberal failure in that sense! It's a failure of consequence and following it up so that those that harm others are dealt with.
You can be a liberal and believe that people should be punished for their actions which harm others.
We should look to societies with low levels of crime to see what it is they are doing differently.
I'm completely fed up with low level criminality. It's constant. Small thefts here, vandalism etc. Nothing ever happens to those that do it, even those known to local plod.
Instead of grouse season in September it should be declared open season on chavs and hoodies so decent people can chase them all over and torment them for fun with no consequences. When they start bleating about people getting away with hurting them and not getting punished maybe the penny might drop.
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>> wondering if subversive elements arranged it.
There are a lot of mischief-preachers in the layabout and criminal classes who use a sort of, usually very crude, 'political' language. That's been commonplace for a long time, and they are certainly 'subversive elements'.
But I would be very surprised if any organization however shadowy had anything to do with starting the riots.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Sat 13 Aug 11 at 00:31
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>> But I would be very surprised if any organization however shadowy had anything to do
>> with starting the riots.
So would I. But there are 'catalysts', the more aggressive hooligans who perhaps normally just do a bit of mugging or burglary. Looking at the 'long shots' on the news reports, you can see little groups of 2,3,4,5 'mates' who've turned up for fear of missing something just waiting for somebody to start something so they can join in. The majority of them wouldn't start it on their own.
There's a direct enabler that the catalyst works on which is a basic lack of, or suspension of moral behaviour., Now that might seem like a statement of the bleeding obvious and it is, but it's being ignored.
The premise of most of the 'remedies' and explanations is that the cause is some sort of social injustice or deprivation, or a lack of adequate policing. Maybe they aren't irrelevant, but they aren't the principal direct problem.
Many people have been poor or deprived without turning to sociopathic hobbies. I'm guessing most of us would put our fast food boxes in a bin whether there was a policemn watching or not, and we wouldn't steal something just because we could get away with it. That is 'morals'.
Time and again we hear the hoody saying 'nobody can stop us, so why not?' And they mean it.
It's the causes of that amoral attitude that need explanation. I say causes because it's unlikely to be one factor.
In terms of a moral framework, the modern world is carp. Politicians are in my opinion far less honest than they were even thirty years ago. They have to be on message all the time, or spout only claptrap like Ken who immediately said "it's the cuts". Disgusting cynicism, he can't possibly think that can he? Nothing is properly debated - vide poor Ken Clarke and his sentencing ideas, stoned to death with sound bites and emotional incontinence.
Simple concepts of right and wrong have been replaced by (I can't think of a better handle) political correctness, which is mainly obfuscation and mealy-mouthed euphemism that make any normal sort of discussion impossible, and also prevent schools stepping into the moral vacuum in the way they used to - at least mine did.
As AC has remarked, a fish always rots from the head.
My reasoned analysis seems to have turned into a stream of consciousness - I'm going to wash the cars instead.
Last edited by: Manatee on Sat 13 Aug 11 at 08:54
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>>In terms of a moral framework, the modern world is carp.
>>Simple concepts of right and wrong have been replaced by
This is not new. Its nothing to do with the modern world. Its the very nature of humans that we are all delivered of different morals, and it has no class or monetary values. All class or money does is just vary the moral codes that people break.
If this was not the case, the Bow street runners would not have needed to be formed. History shows us that children born of feckless fathers and gin sodden young mothers have always existed and roamed in gangs. In the old days they were exploited by Fagin, these days by the older gang leaders.
Some people have been stealing ever since the notion of ownership arrived.
Whats different here and now these days is the concept of instant live 24 hour news and communication. 150 years ago the notion of a small riot in some east end rat-hole would not have been reported, Now we know in seconds. The modern world is to blame for the wildfire instant spread of events, but not the cause. The cause will never change until all our consciences are rep;aced with the government standard issue.
The summary? this is not new - just news.
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>> The summary? this is not new - just news.
You're right of course. People are rubbish, and civilisation is a veneer.
But I still think it could be better, and that amorality has become more general. In other words, it is possible to do something about it, even if you can't fix a billion years of evolution.
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>> In other words, it is possible to do something about it, even if you can't
>> fix a billion years of evolution.
Perhaps this is our evolution. If the climate change scientists are right civilisation has doomed the planet. Perhaps nature has decided that to survive we need to revert to the strongest, fittest, amoral, cunning and ruthless type of tribe society. If civilisation collapses when the resources run out, who will be best prepared?
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Zero
Good thinking, maybe a modified version of this this can explain why historically the 'advanced' civilisations ( eg Incas, Aztecs, Greeks, Romans) have all failed, and the world reverted to super caveman status.
A learning curve as shown here www.hodu.com/learning-trust.shtml
However the progressive evolution of information/communications technology (in its broadest sense) has made it easier for civilisations to learn from previous 'mistakes' .
Last edited by: pmh on Sat 13 Aug 11 at 10:50
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>> Simple concepts of right and wrong have been replaced by (I can't think of a better handle) political correctness, which is mainly obfuscation and mealy-mouthed euphemism that make any normal sort of discussion impossible, and also prevent schools stepping into the moral vacuum in the way they used to - at least mine did.
Good stuff Dugong, very.
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Zero has an important point too. All progress is technical, scientific, 'intellectual'. Psychology, despite evolution even since the middle ages, lags far behind. Relations between the individual and the collective are still managed as they were in the primal horde.
We aren't rubbish, but we are apes with smartphones and machine guns. It really is time we became human, but I won't be holding my breath.
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>> If people are going to preach virtue and work for a company which does not practise what they preach....You can perhaps understand why I am rather disparaging...
No, I can't. That is a childishly naive view.
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>> >> If people are going to preach virtue and work for a company which does
>> not practise what they preach....You can perhaps understand why I am rather disparaging...
>>
>> No, I can't. That is a childishly naive view.
>>
>>
>>
Well If you believe that saying one thing and doing another is OK...
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>> Well If you believe that saying one thing and doing another is OK...
Of course not. But do you believe a professional journalist can find proper work in newspapers owned by people who share his moral outlook? Have you, madf, always worked for people who share yours? I certainly haven't. It's quite rare. They haven't got where they are by being sweetly well-meaning.
A narrow, blinkered, utterly literal-minded approach to discussion must have its uses I suppose. But it doesn't seem to help you understand even quite simple discourse.
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Tax avoidance is legal and it helps to have accountants and financial advisers to help one with it. the Government must change the rules or shut up
Tax evasion is illegal so get the miscreants in court and deal with them.
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Im not sure I can be bothered about tax avoidance - its not like the government wont waste it if they get the money anyway, I would rather in was invested inwardly within a company or finds its way into the economy through being spent on goods/services.
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I can be bothered with tax avoidance! I get everything I can tax free from Jersey and the CI. It saves me money and I don't give it to the Government to spend on High Speed trains but get the rolling stock from Germany and other nonsense. I'd rather waste my own money my own way than let them do it for me.
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My post near the top reads "how to make the rioters pay"
After reading WP comments and on thinking about it some more. I don't think making rioters pay is the right choice of words.
In simple terms, rioting is a demonstration of frustration against a political or an economic situation where peaceful protest. Perhaps in retaliation to perceived heavy handed policing etc. I can understand how riots happen and can imagine situations where many people might riot. IT IS STILL NOT RIGHT TO DAMAGE OTHERS PERSON OR PROPERTY.
Most of the people involved seem to be opportunist looters and therefore deserve the harshest of penalties and what boggles the mind is some of these people are well educated at significantly financially secure.
WP mentioned sink estates, lack of role models, welfare state being contributory factors. What the Govt, not just this one, but the next and the one after and the one after that need to do is to ensure that people work. It is a puritanical view but idle hand are the Devil's tools and I think in this day and age it holds true.
No more must we allow people to get hand outs for nothing. Disbanding social care is not the answer. Changing it to ensure that social care means attending school, college, work training, apprenticeships all without absences for 40 hours a week. Failure to comply 100% should result in loss of benefits. Single parents should be provided with creches. Stop building large estates to house groups of people which lead to jobless ghettos but accommodation to near where it is needed.
The short term cost of this would be huge and therefore will never happen but the long term benefits could be great.
Pie in the sky!
Last edited by: zippy on Fri 12 Aug 11 at 23:23
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'I gave up on my species'
Coming round to that point of view
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I was shocked at the savagery of the riots,
I was appalled by the looting (though the bankers, the corporate CEOs, the politicians and the stock market gamblers have been doing it for years),
I was dismayed by the impotence of the police.
I was particularly sickened by footage of that poor Malaysian student being robbed.
Out of all of this, though, I was amused to hear David Cameron calling for higher moral standards. I’ve just dug out a quote from ‘Number Crunching’ in the May/June Private Eye
“0.13% Percentage of the general population now in prison
0.61% Percentage of members of the last House of Commons now in prison”. As someone correctly said earlier, the fish is rotting from the head.
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Been lots of rioting in Belfast this weekend - barely a mention on the news !
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David Starkey is spot on.
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Perhaps he is, his intellect is pretty indisputable, but he made a real hash of putting his point across which undermined a very valid point.
Im not fan of this american gangster culture either nor its exporting to here, but he didnt need to reference skin colour, it didnt enhance the point as most people are already aware of the ethnic groups involved in the particular niche he was talking about - that said gang culture isnt exclusive in a wider sense to any skin colour or race of people.
Im staggered frankly at how some of these kids seem to have discovered gravity defying jeans which seem to hang halfway down seemingly by magic. Cant say ive ever been a fan of seeing what underwear anyone is wearing though, makes me wanna grab their jeans and yank them up - whatever happened to braces? :-)
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It's played right into the hands of those odious goons from the BNP that Griffin went in a tweeting frenzy after he caught wind of it.
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>> David Starkey is spot on.
Don't feed the troll..............
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>> David Starkey is spot on.
Agreed. He ended up being pushed into saying some things which were unfortunate when taken out of context, but the centre of his argument was that whilst the riots had obviously been started as a result of the killing of a black, it wasn't blacks rioting - it was all hues of skin colour. HOWEVER, the culture of the rioters - of whatefer skin colour - was very much gangsta.
Needless to say the token black lefty on the programme took mock offence at the male establishment figure, and the token wannabe-black lefty author of Chavs did likewise.
I struggle to see how these people can argue that the nation should be viewed as anti-black racist when at the same time they agree that the whites "want to be black".
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It's not easy for the left to lambast Starkey.
He belongs to one of their favourite client groups himself,(Gays)!
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Professor Starkey is learned of course and very intelligent; but unsound, reactionary and a bit of a twit because too emotional. These qualities make him amusing and good TV.
But spot on? Not often (except for people like Roger and X) and sometimes wildly and offensively wrong and off-target... however I didn't see him the other night.
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I know what he is trying to say, and it does make sense, but he puts it in the wrong way and he cant explain his point under pressure of being called a racist.
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He came across as such in that programme about schools that that insufferably smug Jamie Oliver bloke did - "Dream School" - Rather spectacularly failing to connect with the yoofs
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Just read up on what he said. In context he's not far wrong, but he will have alienated a huge swathe of muddled England in saying it and he will find it hard to live it down.
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Thankfully its the kind of episode not exclusive to the Right - anyone remember Germaine Greer on Question Time trying to suggest sexuality between fathers and daughters instigated if I recall by the daughters - shes lucky Peter Hitchins was there blaming promiscuity to draw fire from her or she could have been lynched.
Great TV though.
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This is the video of Newsnight. (Ghastly panning camerawork, is this how TV is produced these days?)
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14513517
www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/14/david-starkey-ethnic-year-zero
Last edited by: Mapmaker on Tue 16 Aug 11 at 10:13
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Do you know the biggest thing that has p'd me off...in fact there are two things:
1, This country allowed its' sentencing policy to be constantly watered down to virtually nothing (you've only got to watch these cops type programmes and listen to the pathetic sentences at the end)...then, when there's been some riots and the whole fabric of society is put at risk....bang....it's lock 'em up time. People with no records and a straighforward theft are banged up for 6 months (not that i'm complaining).
Well why o why let it get to the point that people who have no record would do that? Why allow fixed penalty notices for theft? Why allow repeat offenders to have community sentences?..Why let people think that crime is acceptable, then when there's a problem have sudden and dramatic crack down...why not keep it that crime is always unacceptable and have sentences that reflect that?
2, Why has this country constantly and continuously hampered the police in their efforts to combat crime, by introducing political correctness, endless bureaucracy, endless checking mechanisms, endless targets, made it far easier for people to complain, introduced the CPS, IPCC, etc...in other words emasculated it and totally tied its' hands behind its' back.....then when the wotsit hits the fan, expects it to suddenly change into a kick backside outfit and go forth banging people's heads?
We don't need an American chief to come and run us robustly...we need to be allowed to do that ourselves....and have proper support form the Govt and senior politicians...not have them melt into the background when the next protester gets his deserved comeuppance, but sustains an injury as well...and everyone's then bleating about police brutality. They can't have it all ways...(and i'm not talking about having no checking procedures, a civilised country needs that...but it has to be properly balanced).
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P.S. Ken Clarke needs to be sacked.
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Agree with most of what you said - except
>>made it
>> far easier for people to complain, introduced the CPS, IPCC,
They can't have it all
>> ways...(and i'm not talking about having no checking procedures, a civilised country needs that...but it
>> has to be properly balanced).
The CPS and the IPCC are that balance.
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Yep there are some bad coppers with serious ego trips. Although police clearly need more powers there has to be a balance, and there has to be mechanisms to weed out the corrupt cops.
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www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/british-rioters-the-spawn-of-a-bankrupt-ruling-elite/story-e6frg6zo-1226112640970
Typically misanthropic but curiously compelling piece from Theodore Dalrymple published, of course, in the Digger's Aussie flagship paper. Quite a few of the things he says are true.
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That is depressing reading A.C.What has become of the Briton I arrived in over fourty years ago.One of my lads lives in New Zealand I think its better for him to stop there.
I sometimes talk about this with my wife and the writing was on the wall years ago.I used to run a small rugby team and the majority of the kids didn't have a father at home.
But we have to start somewhere to put it right.How I don't know but we have to try.
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>>>www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/british-rioters-the-spawn-of-a-bankrupt-ruling-elite/story-e6frg6zo-1226112640970
>>>Typically misanthropic but curiously compelling piece from Theodore Dalrymple published, of course, in the Digger's Aussie flagship paper. Quite a few of the things he says are true.
If I read it correctly , the article is painting all England's kids with the same brush and this is far from the truth and I take umbrage at it. T
I am from a working class background without a university education and have worked myself to a reasonably well paid job and I am bringing up my two children to work for what they want and that includes schoolwork.
I know they were astonished at the MP's expenses fiddles because I complete my expenses in the lounge when they are about and they see me throw receipts in the bin as they are invalid expenditure, even though spent whilst doing business.
They were horrified at the mobile phone hacking as they believe in doing the right thing and this clearly wasn't.
They were upset at the looting as they are brought up to save up for and pay for what they want and their pocket money is meagre and dependent on chores, schoolwork and behavior.
Like their parents, they are far from perfect, but they do know right from wrong and I hope that will stand them in good stead.
I know their friends have a similar upbringing.
Where it does fall down is that the welfare state is "something for nothing" and that needs to stop. People need to earn what they are given. How they earn that is a question to be answered elsewhere, but if you don't earn, you don't have respect for what you are given.
I personally get hugely frustrated when people on benefits appear better of than I do.
WestPig is absolutely right about punishments. There has been a downward spiral, I suppose it is cheaper not to send people to prison. However, there is a danger in pendulum swings and a good middle ground needs to be sought. What use are fines of £1 per month or similar for repeated thefts.
Rant over!
;-)
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Well, don't blame me zippy, and don't get depressed Dutchie.
Dr Dalrymple is a miserable misanthropist. The piece is over the top polemic, but very good of its kind. Excoriating. I can just hear the Digger chortling over it because he hates us.
A lot of the things it says are true, but that doesn't mean it projects an accurate picture of our society. It leaves out all the good bits and paints some of the bad bits very black.
Still, it is well balanced in that it sprays the vitriol up society as well as down it. That is a point I have tried to make myself, only to be yelled at and accused of justifying rioting. And it is a point made again by the excellent Mary Riddell in yesterday's Terrorflag, returning to the charge.
Brace up chaps! I thought the Dalrymple rant would ring a few bells and amuse people! Surely no one sees a harmless little splash of vitriol as threatening?
Tsk. Wimps.
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>> I can just hear the Digger chortling over it because
>> he hates us.
Yeah, Murdoch has that "I want to punch Brits on the nose because they think they are better than us" attitude that a proportion of Aussies have. Ironic really considering he earns much of his "untaxed" wealth from this country, and his fellow countrymen despise him.
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...and his fellow countrymen despise him...
Green is a colour which knows no national boundaries.
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Funnily Aussies tend not to knock those who do well and make it big. Murdoch tho dabbled heavily in politics down there, and they don't like politicians. Plus he is called Rupert.
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". Ironic really considering he earns much of his "untaxed" wealth from this country, and his fellow countrymen despise him. "
Hmm
What untaxed wealth?
News Corporation makes most of its profits in the US...
AC
I see Mary Riddell is consistent: more spending required.
Her article is basically an attack on the last 13 years of Labour policy but she dares not say so (if you measure by results that is..)
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>> ". Ironic really considering he earns much of his "untaxed" wealth from this country, and
>> his fellow countrymen despise him. "
>>
>> Hmm
>>
>> What untaxed wealth?
Check out his last tax return with the IRS, HM Customs and Revenue or the ATO.
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I find the revelation that Murdoch pays no more tax than he has to absolutely shocking.
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Thats good then. Specially as you help pay him.
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It's that green-eyed monster again.
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Not at all.
I just find that someone who (successfully) influences and blackmails politicians into providing special personal, business favours and conditions and then contributes nothing back to that country at all, is just a little bit morally vacuous. But hey, clearly you are happy to pay vastly inflated prices for watching your favourite football team, and putting vast amounts of money into the back pockets of non UK football agents and players.
Me I call it theft, larceny and dishonesty on a vast scale.
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...contributes nothing...
Lots of people have jobs in Murdoch businesses, about 28,000 worldwide, including many in this country.
...inflated prices watching football...
Murdoch doesn't control Sky - if you recall, the bid to do so featured quite prominently in the phone hacking story.
...morally vacuous...
Closing the News of the World was a moral decision, it certainly wasn't a business one, the paper was a licence to print (a lot of) money.
There may have been a short term dip in circulation and ad revenue, but it's almost certain both would have soon recovered.
...theft, larceny, blackmail, dishonesty on a vast scale...
Those serious allegations could be true, but none us know enough to say if they are or not.
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>> Closing the News of the World was a moral decision, it certainly wasn't a business
>> one, the paper was a licence to print (a lot of) money.
Of course it was a business decision. The business reasons were obvious, the effects it was having on the rest of the corporation.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 17 Aug 11 at 08:53
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...The business reasons were obvious, the effects it was having on the rest of the corporation...
From a worldwide perspective, it was no more than a little local difficulty which would have soon passed.
Such long-term effects as there are, and are going to be, will happen whether the News of the World is shut or open.
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From a world wide perspective it was blooming into a major international corporate crisis. Killing the little local difficulty made it pass. Shutting the news of the world was a purely business decision.
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Wrong thread, will try again...ignore, mods, delete.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Wed 17 Aug 11 at 09:11
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You're right Crankcase....!
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Its not a rant zippy you write what you feel.I won't get depressed A.C.;)Life is to short.
I just find it sad even if the doctor is partly right its not a nice reflection of the way so many people live their lives.The trouble with punishment is that if people come out of prison worse than before they went in nothing is achieved.Somebody said revolving doors.
I have lost faith in our politicians which ever party they are from,poor leadership and speaking with false tong as kemo sapi would say.
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'speaking with false tong as kemo sapi would say."
That made me laugh Dutchie -
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>>The trouble with punishment is that if people come out of prison worse than before they went in nothing is achieved.Somebody said revolving doors.<<
Not always the case though - I was locked up over 4 decades ago, and haven't been back since,
Some of my friends lived the 'revolving door' life, alas, ... they had a bad home life/up bringing (I didn't)
The answer Re: broken Briton, begins at the cradle/parenting/school.
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Riot Shenanigans - Vol 6 - zippy
